Doppelganger Archer/Ranger

[Savith9]

I want to build a Doppelganger Archer type that’s more of an assassin hence why I picked the doppelganger for the race; it’s the perfect race for infiltration and in general changing your appearance after a kill. My rolled stats are: (yes I got really good rolls)

stat------Base----race adj
str-------16-------18
dex------18-------20
con------15-------17
int-------18-------20
wis------14-------18
cha------16-------18

Now the character doesn't really have to be an archer with stats like that and I can easily re-arrange them to fit another class, but I would prefer doing an archer or a range type. Does anyone have any input for a character build?

[Piggy Knowles]

First of all, I'd recommend going changeling rather than doppelganger. You get a lot of the flavor and some of the cooler benefits, but you don't have to eat racial hit die and LA. You can find changelings in Eberron, Races of Eberron and Monster Manual 3.

Second of all, my favorite ranged class is probably the Chameleon (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041210b). Why? Because they get all of the best ranged spells on a decent chassis. However, the Chameleon is also perfect for an infiltrator/assassin, so that works out well for you!

Ordinarily I'd suggest going super Wis-centric, but with stats like that, you don't have to.

Maybe something like...

Changeling, Cloistered Cleric 1/Ranger 2/Fighter 2/Chameleon 10/XXX 5
DOMAINS: Knowledge, Planning, Trickery

1- Able Learner, Knowledge Devotion, Extend Spell
2- Urban Tracking
3- Rapid Shot
4- Point Blank Shot
5- Precise Shot
6- Persistent Spell
9- Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell)
12- Travel Devotion
15- Extra Turning
18- Extra Turning

Fill in the last five levels with whatever you'd like. For example, if you want to emphasize the doppelganger aspects, you could swap Travel Devotion for Persona Immersion and take Cabinet Trickster for the last five levels, which more or less turns you into a full doppel.

As an archer, you get all the important archery feats. You also get DMM (Persistent Spell) to persist divine spells. As a Chameleon, you get... well, basically any divine spell of 6th-level or below.

So that means you have access to all the juicy swift action ranger spells, many of which are persistable (Persistent Swift Haste, for example, is quite nice). You also have access to the cleric spells that are good for any martial character - Divine Power, Righteous Might and Divine Favor are easy core choices, but they're just the beginning. Oh, with stats like those you can easily pick up arcane spells, too.

Chameleon also makes you a great spy/assassin, so it fits right in.

I suggest Urban Tracking rather than regular Track, as that's based off of Gather Info, by the way. Also, look into the Arcane Hunter ACF from Complete Mage.

[Savith9]

sounds like its something i would want to try, the main reason i said doppelganger is the fact that they have no age limit and dont suffer from age so its a character i would literally be able to pull from game to game because hes lived through everything

[Savith9]

maybe swap the stats arround a bit to better fit spell casting i would have to have a 16 at min to cast 6th level spells

so without being a doppel it would be

str 16
dex 18
con 14
int 18
wis 16
cha 15

[Savith9]

im actually going through and building it right now but one thing sparked a question whats the point of doing cleric? granted the domains would be nice if it wasn't for the fact that its based off cleric level. other than that the only thing i can think of is to get turning, i would have to look at cloistered cleric to see what bonus they may get but just off of what i know about clerics im not seeing a real point for it.

[Piggy Knowles]

im actually going through and building it right now but one thing sparked a question whats the point of doing cleric? granted the domains would be nice if it wasn't for the fact that its based off cleric level. other than that the only thing i can think of is to get turning, i would have to look at cloistered cleric to see what bonus they may get but just off of what i know about clerics im not seeing a real point for it.

1. Two bonus feats, Knowledge Devotion and Extend Spell. Two useful feats for one level is a pretty good deal.

2. Skills. Cloistered cleric gives you 6 SP/level, and the Trickery domain makes disguise, hide and the like class skills. You need that to qualify for Chameleon.

3. Turning. 3+Cha turn attempts to fuel DMM, plus the ability to take DMZm in the first place.

[Savith9]

1. Two bonus feats, Knowledge Devotion and Extend Spell. Two useful feats for one level is a pretty good deal.

2. Skills. Cloistered cleric gives you 6 SP/level, and the Trickery domain makes disguise, hide and the like class skills. You need that to qualify for Chameleon.

3. Turning. 3+Cha turn attempts to fuel DMM, plus the ability to take DMZm in the first place.

ok i seen the exstend spell but where is knowledge devotion comming from, im not seeing anything that grants it, in fact the only thing i see with knowledge is that they gain knowledge domain reguardless of deity.

[Piggy Knowles]

ok i seen the exstend spell but where is knowledge devotion comming from, im not seeing anything that grants it, in fact the only thing i see with knowledge is that they gain knowledge domain reguardless of deity.

Complete Champion lets you swap out the Knowledge domain for the Knowledge Devotion feat.

[Savith9]

Complete Champion lets you swap out the Knowledge domain for the Knowledge Devotion feat.

ah ok didn't know that so the clerics actually giving you quite a bit in the build while fighter/ranger gets you most of the ranged feats. the only thing im noticing for chameleon is that you have to be a human or doppelganger to pick it up so being a changling wouldnt actually help me at all unless they have something in particular that qualifies them as one of those two races other than their ability to shapeshift into them.

[Piggy Knowles]

Under Adaptation at the bottom of the Chameleon class entry, it says that if changelings are in your game, they should be able to take the class as well, as they are human/doppelgänger hybrids.

[Savith9]

awesome that makes it 100 times easier to do this because the game start right now is at lvl 5 so next level would be going into chameleon thoguh i would like the actual stat bonus from dopp but the LA makes it a hard point to sell

[Savith9]

ok noticed one other thing in here after reviewing persistent spell is almost worthless in the build.... 6 slots higher so that means i could cast 0 level spells to be 24 hours.... so detect spells basically and i wouldnt be able to do it till lvl 15 at a min...

[Urpriest]

ok noticed one other thing in here after reviewing persistent spell is almost worthless in the build.... 6 slots higher so that means i could cast 0 level spells to be 24 hours.... so detect spells basically and i wouldnt be able to do it till lvl 15 at a min...

The build has Divine Metamagic.

[Phelix-Mu]

Somebody is going to give you a more competent description of Divine Metamagic, but you basically burn turn attempts to pay for the metamagic level increase. Basically, the character wakes up, prepares spells, buffs with DMM, the buffs stay for a full 24 hours. Repeat the next morning, or whatever time of day is most convenient (some time when the assassin isn't being observed, obviously).

Please double check this with your DM before building the character around it. Inexperienced DMs may be completely blindsided by the huge ramp up in power level caused by PCs that have buff spells persisted for the whole day. While the real cheese comes from items that give extra turn attempts, some DMs just aren't familiar with this level of op. Other DMs won't allow it in any case.

[Savith9]

ah ok that makes a bit more sense of why its in the build i was looking for one feat to replace it and was thinking about a feat i remember seeing when building a character a few months ago in short all it does is the same thing as versatile performer (use highest perform skill for all performs) but for knowledge checks cant remember what its called so ive been digging though books

[Savith9]

ok so off what im reading divine metamagic doesnt require you to know the metamagic feat before taking it with divine metamagic only prereq is turn/ rebuke on top of that the 2nd lvl ranger grants rapidshot and urban tracking is granted by urban ranger the variant im using so the adjusted feat plan:

now

1- Able Learner, Knowledge Devotion, Extend Spell
2- Urban Tracking
3- Rapid Shot
4- Point Blank Shot
5- Precise Shot
6- Persistent Spell
9- Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell)
12- Travel Devotion
15- Extra Turning
18- Extra Turning

after

1- Able Learner, Knowledge Devotion(class granted), Extend Spell(class granted)
2- Urban Tracking(class granted)
3- Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell), Rapid Shot (class granted)
4- Point Blank Shot
5- Precise Shot
6- Travel Devotion
9- Extra Turning
12- Extra Turning
15- Extra Turning
18- Extra Turning

but it should look something like this no?
possibly substitute an extra turning for something else

[Urpriest]

ok so off what im reading divine metamagic doesnt require you to know the metamagic feat before taking it with divine metamagic only prereq is turn/ rebuke on top of that the 2nd lvl ranger grants rapidshot and urban tracking is granted by urban ranger the variant im using so the adjusted feat plan:


False. If you read the feat, you'd see it applies to a metamagic feat you already have.

[Savith9]

You can channel energy into some of your divine spells to
make them more powerful.
Prerequisite: Ability to turn undead or rebuke undead.
Benefit: When you take this feat, choose a metamagic
feat. This feat applies only to that metamagic feat. As a free
action, you can take the energy from turning or rebuking
undead and use it to apply a metamagic feat to spells that
you know. You must spend one turn or rebuke attempt,
plus an additional attempt for each level increase in the
metamagic feat you’re using. For example, Jozan the cleric
could sacrifice three turn attempts to empower a holy smite
he’s casting. Because you’re using positive or negative
energy to augment your spells, the spell slot for the spell
doesn’t change.
Special: This feat may be taken multiple times. Each
time you take this feat choose a different metamagic feat to
which to apply it.

I really don't see anywhere in here that you have to have the feat prior it says choose a metamagic feat and does not say anything about you having to already have it, the only thing in here that says you have to know it are the spells and its "spells you know" so it can easily be added to arcane spells based off the text and chameleon can do either.

[Savith9]

after reading it a few times i do see how it can be interpreted both ways though

[Urpriest]

after reading it a few times i do see how it can be interpreted both ways though

Check the errata.

[Savith9]

And now I know why Mithril Leaf said that....
One of the unwritten rules of Giantitp is that Urpriest is always right.

[Savith9]

Now whats the point of travel devotion granted its a nice feat but it almost seems wasted for a ranged character my DM doesn't believe in AoO's so needing to flee isn't really needed and we have enough melee that I should never really be threatened unless its by another ranged. Unless the idea / point of it is to do persistent spell with it I doubt I could but if so then tossing scout into the mix may be worth it even if I can't still might be worth it.

[Urpriest]

Now whats the point of travel devotion granted its a nice feat but it almost seems wasted for a ranged character my DM doesn't believe in AoO's so needing to flee isn't really needed and we have enough melee that I should never really be threatened unless its by another ranged. Unless the idea / point of it is to do persistent spell with it I doubt I could but if so then tossing scout into the mix may be worth it even if I can't still might be worth it.

It's nice to be able to move in a round if you want to. If you really expect to be able to spend every round standing in place then it's not necessary, and you could trade it out for another feat. That said, if your DM doesn't believe in AOOs and you never feel forced to move then you probably don't need a particularly powerful character and this build might overshadow your party members.

[Savith9]

Trust me when I say that's not a difficult task to overshadow them most of the party are new new players my swordsage overshadowed the hell out of them being able to do 14d6 damage every round and I was just a base swordsage with cleverly selected maneuvers, he did die though due to his need to be in the middle of everything. The main reason why its not that hard though is anyone that is damage based is built halfway between tank and damage or heals and damage the only one that gets close is the druid and hes built for outright damage between him and his pet they usually kill something every round for your standard creatures but he sort of knows what hes doing too the main reason why I'm looking at this character is infiltration, assassination and spying / information gathering and so far I like the concept this build has and basically being a mimic sounds fun.

[Savith9]

On average though somebody dies once every two or three weeks so they are getting plenty of experience creating characters and what combo's not to use I've tried helping them out a few times but some of them just had terrible rolls that you cant really do much with and others are like "ill do it my way" a few of them though have actually listened to input from more knowledgeable players and have decent characters right now the healer of the group is a focused healer but due to him listening he never has a difficult time with it and hes pretty much built to be a spellcaster.

[Piggy Knowles]

I recommended Travel Devotion because mobility is hugely important, and archers are more dependent on full attacks than most. This means that every round, you can make a full round attack and still cast a swift action spell or move up to your speed. I'm always of the opinion that more tactical movement is a good thing, and I like mobile characters. That might be more my own personal playstyle, though.

It's not essential to the build, so if you've got a feat you would prefer, it won't hurt to drop it. If you anticipate you'll need more mobility in a given day, you can always take it via your Chameleon floating feat.