Is there a way to remove the intelligence from an intelligent weapon?

[Shining Wrath]

My party came across a +3 shocking battleaxe in a dragon's hoard. For ECL 9, that's a nice toy.

But said battle axe comes with a chaotic evil personality with an ego score of 13. That's high enough that the most likely users would be at risk of turning into a psychopathic killer (as opposed to your normal murder hobo) at the start of each battle. Or the Paladin could use it, but there's an ethical issue there.

Our Paladin also has issues with selling it because the only logical buyers are CN, NE, or CE - the anti-Paladin alignments. We could let the Artificer Retain Essence, and 1200+ XP is a lot for a ECL 9 Artificer.

I hope the assembled brainpower of GitP can figure out a way to remove the CE brain from the battleaxe. Any suggestions?

EDIT: I don't just want to reduce the INT score, although that would make the save easier. I'd like to have the psychopath gone.

For additional amusement, consider whether or not it is "good" to "kill" a CE helpless prisoner trapped within a battleaxe.

[supermonkeyjoe]

You could always reduce its intelligence to 0 somehow, the only ways I can think of off-hand are pretty roundabout:-

Polymorph Any object on it then cast feeblemind (Int becomes 1) or bestow curse (-6 INT)on it until it fails the save then equip it with a cursed robe of powerlessness (untyped -10 to STR and INT)

Of polymorph any object it into something with a head then put a helm of opposite alignment on it

Of just enchant it so it gives the wielder a permanent protection from evil effect, this way even if its ego score dominates it can't make the wielder do anything.

[Shining Wrath]

You could always reduce its intelligence to 0 somehow, the only ways I can think of off-hand are pretty roundabout:-

Polymorph Any object on it then cast feeblemind (Int becomes 1) or bestow curse (-6 INT)on it until it fails the save then equip it with a cursed robe of powerlessness (untyped -10 to STR and INT)

Of polymorph any object it into something with a head then put a helm of opposite alignment on it

Of just enchant it so it gives the wielder a permanent protection from evil effect, this way even if its ego score dominates it can't make the wielder do anything.

We've got no arcane casters besides the Artificer. Adding permanent protection from evil is workable as soon the Artificer is level 10 (to add the 5th plus to the weapon), so I suppose patience is a virtue.

[Shining Wrath]

Working off supermonkeyjoe's suggestion, would it work to polymorph the axe into a living creature, let the CE creature attack us, and kill it.

Upon death, would the creature return to battleaxe form, but the CE persona is no longer there?

[SimonMoon6]

Another (probably unworkable) idea involves using True Mind Switch. First, you've got to make the weapon into a creature (Poly Any Object). Then, have character A and animal B standing by.

Character A switches minds with the Weapon C.
Character A (in the weapon's body) switches minds with the animal B.
Character A (in the animal's body) switches minds with the Weapon C (who is in Character A's original body).

At the end of all of this, character A is back in his own body, while the animal and the weapon have switched minds.

Then wait for the polymorph to wear off and you've got a weapon with the mind of an animal.

[SimonMoon6]

Working off supermonkeyjoe's suggestion, would it work to polymorph the axe into a living creature, let the CE creature attack us, and kill it.

Upon death, would the creature return to battleaxe form, but the CE persona is no longer there?

The DM might easily say that when the creature returns to battle axe form, it is just as damaged as the creature was, meaning it was completely destroyed.

[Zherog]

Book of Exalted Deeds has a whole section on "turning" people away from evil alignments and making them neutral or good. I don't recall exactly how it worked, but it basically involves spending continuous time - a month or more as I recall - having regular conversations with the convert-to-be. I think it used Diplomacy checks, but I could be misremembering.

Those rules might give you the means to make the personality in the weapon change alignment. Your paladin is the best bet for that. And how cool is that as a story: the paladin's intelligent battleaxe was converted from darkness to the light and now fights for the righteous?

[Lorsa]

I think the paladin should just destroy the extremely dangerous weapon and be done with it. Unless your style as a DM means you desperately need to hog every item you find. I usually try to find ways to reward my players for not being item-hoggers and they'll find that giving away stuff and destroying evil items pays out in the end.

[Telonius]

How much time do you have on your hands?

BoED p.119 gives some rules for redeeming an evil magic item. It takes a day per 1000gp of the item, plus a bit of XP. No cost in gold.

[Shining Wrath]

Book of Exalted Deeds has a whole section on "turning" people away from evil alignments and making them neutral or good. I don't recall exactly how it worked, but it basically involves spending continuous time - a month or more as I recall - having regular conversations with the convert-to-be. I think it used Diplomacy checks, but I could be misremembering.

Those rules might give you the means to make the personality in the weapon change alignment. Your paladin is the best bet for that. And how cool is that as a story: the paladin's intelligent battleaxe was converted from darkness to the light and now fights for the righteous?

This ... is brilliant. Our Paladin has glorious charisma and Diplomacy ranks up the wazoo (why he negotiates with his wazoo I leave to your imagination). He could do it.

[Flickerdart]

The DM might easily say that when the creature returns to battle axe form, it is just as damaged as the creature was, meaning it was completely destroyed.
You don't have to damage it physically. Just hit it with death magic or something.

[Shining Wrath]

How much time do you have on your hands?

BoED p.119 gives some rules for redeeming an evil magic item. It takes a day per 1000gp of the item, plus a bit of XP. No cost in gold.

As it happens, we need to take a journey. So the time is probably available.

Giving the Paladin a chance to be obnoxious for a good cause = pure win.

[Shining Wrath]

I think the paladin should just destroy the extremely dangerous weapon and be done with it. Unless your style as a DM means you desperately need to hog every item you find. I usually try to find ways to reward my players for not being item-hoggers and they'll find that giving away stuff and destroying evil items pays out in the end.

I'm not the DM, so I cannot force that the best magic item we've ever found is replaced.

Others have supplied a way for the Paladin to convert the weapon to good rather than destroying it. And then he can use it having purified it.

The win ... is epic.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Get it drunk.

[Shining Wrath]

Get it drunk.

:smallwink: It's a chaotic evil battleaxe. It would be more than 32,000 GP worth of cheap ale to get it drunk.

[monkey3]

The artificer should just retain essence on it, and make an even better axe.

That's what we just did to an evil artifact. We made a pile of items...

[Shining Wrath]

The artificer should just retain essence on it, and make an even better axe.

That's what we just did to an evil artifact. We made a pile of items...

Always an option, as noted, but maybe not cost-effective since we have a sword-and-board Paladin currently wielding a +1 scimitar. Artificer also is considering delaying leveling up due to unexpended reserve, so it might be a while before the XP from axe-nomming came into play.

And, as noted, having the artificer nom the axe is plausibly killing a helpless prisoner.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

I'd go ahead and hit it with the old retain essence. I know every time I find an evil magic item on a goody-good my first question is; "Does this world have Artificers"?

How does your DM rule material value when retain essence is used? Can you get at least some portion of the material value? The value of "Destroyed" magic items is vague and I know at least some DM's will rule that gems cloud to worthlessness etc when an item is "Destroyed".

Oh important question, do you have 16,000+ gold to let the artificer craft with during your trip?


And, as noted, having the artificer nom the axe is plausibly killing a helpless prisoner.

If it is, then mind raping, "soul" removal (it doesn't have a soul more on that later) etc is even worse and eternal imprisonment in church vaults or whatever is pretty bad too, worse in some people's eyes. I've never encountered a DM that made a stance for rights of intelligent evil magic items myself.

In that scenario I guess you could give it some kind of trial that included evidence gained via object read. It would probably be found evil, but not guilty of any crimes unless it had possessed a creature and made it perform evil acts "very likely". Since the axe has no "lifespan" imprisonment isn't really logical and could be seen as unnecessarily cruel and since it doesn't have a soul that will go to an appropriate plane death/destruction is the most humane punishment and i see no particular reason not to destroy it via retain essence.

In the unlikely event that the axe is found "innocent", wow ummmm, i guess you'd have to release it in a reasonable manner of it's choosing since you've acknowledged it's "personhood". This would probably mean handing it over to a rival church or something, wow this is silly.

I suppose the best thing would actually be a bit tricky and just leave it on a random tree stump and watch it. Then when a random commoner picks it up it possesses him and tries to kill another commoner. Hold person, retrieve the axe, have a new trial now it's guilty of possessing someone and attempting murder. Better yet, don't do this, have a willing low level clerk "accidentally" pick up the axe during the trial.

[Shining Wrath]

I'd go ahead and hit it with the old retain essence. I know every time I find an evil magic item on a goody-good my first question is; "Does this world have Artificers"?

How does your DM rule material value when retain essence is used? Can you get at least some portion of the material value? The value of "Destroyed" magic items is vague and I know at least some DM's will rule that gems cloud to worthlessness etc when an item is "Destroyed".

Oh important question, do you have 16,000+ gold to let the artificer craft with during your trip?

We got about 5,000 GP in pure coin from the dragon. Lots of as-of-yet unappraised art, and a Blessed Book which none of us have any use for along with some other magical stuff. Along with our personal reserves plus the party fund, I'm sure we can come up with lots of coin as needed.

[Blade Conduit]

I agree with changing its alignment. Roleplay it out, I imagine the paladin taking it out for a walk and giving it "the talk". Showing the axe how good it is to help people. Possibly using the axe to cut some logs for a fire. Amusements abound especially if you have a Paladin played by someone with a sense of humor. Could you imagine the paladin chastising the axe for doing bad things? I'm laughing already and I'm not even there.

[Shining Wrath]

I agree with changing its alignment. Roleplay it out, I imagine the paladin taking it out for a walk and giving it "the talk". Showing the axe how good it is to help people. Possibly using the axe to cut some logs for a fire. Amusements abound especially if you have a Paladin played by someone with a sense of humor. Could you imagine the paladin chastising the axe for doing bad things? I'm laughing already and I'm not even there.

Yeah, the Paladin's player is up to the task of a finger-wagging lecture of a bad axe with bad acts. "No! We do NOT slaughter squirrels! Or puppies!"

[mistformsquirrl]

I'm with the others saying "let the paladin convert it" - the idea really is wonderful (and potentially quite amusing!)

[Blade Conduit]

Yeah, the Paladin's player is up to the task of a finger-wagging lecture of a bad axe with bad acts. "No! We do NOT slaughter squirrels! Or puppies!"

My DM would love that pun. We haven't had a single session where something hasn't gone a "fowl" or some other equally low blow. That axe one is actually pretty funny though.

*Edit* Be careful retuning your axe though too good and it may not be as awesome. I could imagine a good axe thinking "oh that minion doesn't look that strong maybe I should only use +1 against it"

[RFLS]

We've got no arcane casters besides the Artificer. Adding permanent protection from evil is workable as soon the Artificer is level 10 (to add the 5th plus to the weapon), so I suppose patience is a virtue.

I'm afb, but I'm pretty sure the Artificer can do this at level 8 due to his +2 to CL for crafting.

[Shining Wrath]

I'm afb, but I'm pretty sure the Artificer can do this at level 8 due to his +2 to CL for crafting.

Yes, if the Artificer has that particular skill learned; there's qualifications. Since the Artificer is a DMPC the actual stats & feats and capabilities are deliberately vague.

[Shining Wrath]

My DM would love that pun. We haven't had a single session where something hasn't gone a "fowl" or some other equally low blow. That axe one is actually pretty funny though.

*Edit* Be careful retuning your axe though too good and it may not be as awesome. I could imagine a good axe thinking "oh that minion doesn't look that strong maybe I should only use +1 against it"

We're in an Eberron campaign. Most of our foes have been either Blood of Vol undead or Emerald Claw mooks. I don't think a sentient good aligned weapon would be very inclined towards mercy.

[RFLS]

Yes, if the Artificer has that particular skill learned; there's qualifications. Since the Artificer is a DMPC the actual stats & feats and capabilities are deliberately vague.

That's a class feature gained at level 1.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

reposting this portion as it's a lengthy addition in response to a swordsage and could be buried in the view of anyone following the thread closely.


And, as noted, having the artificer nom the axe is plausibly killing a helpless prisoner.

If it is, then mind raping, "soul" removal (it doesn't have a soul more on that later) etc is even worse and eternal imprisonment in church vaults or whatever is pretty bad too, worse in some people's eyes. I've never encountered a DM that made a stance for rights of intelligent evil magic items myself.

In that scenario I guess you could give it some kind of trial that included evidence gained via object read. It would probably be found evil, but not guilty of any crimes unless it had possessed a creature and made it perform evil acts "very likely". Since the axe has no "lifespan" imprisonment isn't really logical and could be seen as unnecessarily cruel and since it doesn't have a soul that will go to an appropriate plane death/destruction is the most humane punishment and i see no particular reason not to destroy it via retain essence.

In the unlikely event that the axe is found "innocent", wow ummmm, i guess you'd have to release it in a reasonable manner of it's choosing since you've acknowledged it's "personhood". This would probably mean handing it over to a rival church or something, wow this is silly.

I suppose the best thing would actually be a bit tricky and just leave it on a random tree stump and watch it. Then when a random commoner picks it up it possesses him and tries to kill another commoner. Hold person, retrieve the axe, have a new trial now it's guilty of possessing someone and attempting murder. Better yet, don't do this, have a willing low level clerk "accidentally" pick up the axe during the trial.

[Ashtagon]

The DM might easily say that when the creature returns to battle axe form, it is just as damaged as the creature was, meaning it was completely destroyed.

If I were the DM, I'd rule that any successful attempt at destroying the personality will simultaneously destroy the magic. In effect, the personality is what causes the weapon to be magical.

I'd go with redeeming the personality to the side of good.

[Shining Wrath]

That's a class feature gained at level 1.

The class level 1 feature is a +2 to UMD if the Artificer has the item creation skill, e.g., +2 if they have Craft Wand.
Item Creation allows a UMD check of DC (spell level + 20) to emulate the necessary spells involved in item creation.

[Shining Wrath]

reposting this portion as it's a lengthy addition in response to a swordsage and could be buried in the view of anyone following the thread closely.



If it is, then mind raping, "soul" removal (it doesn't have a soul more on that later) etc is even worse and eternal imprisonment in church vaults or whatever is pretty bad too, worse in some people's eyes. I've never encountered a DM that made a stance for rights of intelligent evil magic items myself.

In that scenario I guess you could give it some kind of trial that included evidence gained via object read. It would probably be found evil, but not guilty of any crimes unless it had possessed a creature and made it perform evil acts "very likely". Since the axe has no "lifespan" imprisonment isn't really logical and could be seen as unnecessarily cruel and since it doesn't have a soul that will go to an appropriate plane death/destruction is the most humane punishment and i see no particular reason not to destroy it via retain essence.

In the unlikely event that the axe is found "innocent", wow ummmm, i guess you'd have to release it in a reasonable manner of it's choosing since you've acknowledged it's "personhood". This would probably mean handing it over to a rival church or something, wow this is silly.

I suppose the best thing would actually be a bit tricky and just leave it on a random tree stump and watch it. Then when a random commoner picks it up it possesses him and tries to kill another commoner. Hold person, retrieve the axe, have a new trial now it's guilty of possessing someone and attempting murder. Better yet, don't do this, have a willing low level clerk "accidentally" pick up the axe during the trial.

To add to the silly, the item can't speak, only empathy. I think perhaps the DM didn't create the item per RAW as I understand them, because I think an item with ego=13 should be able to speak. But anyway, it's arguably no more sentient than a cow.

[RFLS]

The class level 1 feature is a +2 to UMD if the Artificer has the item creation skill, e.g., +2 if they have Craft Wand.
Item Creation allows a UMD check of DC (spell level + 20) to emulate the necessary spells involved in item creation.

3rd paragraph of Item Creation: "For purposes of meeting item prerequisites, an artificer's effective caster level equals his artificer level +2."

[Telonius]

Yeah, the Paladin's player is up to the task of a finger-wagging lecture of a bad axe with bad acts. "No! We do NOT slaughter squirrels! Or puppies!"

Greedy guy in party: "Let's just keep it! You're a Paladin, your will is strong enough to resist it. After all, Axes don't kill people ..."
Axe: "Yes I do!"
Greedy guy: "Quiet, you."

[Shining Wrath]

3rd paragraph of Item Creation: "For purposes of meeting item prerequisites, an artificer's effective caster level equals his artificer level +2."

I stand corrected by your surpassing rules lawyering. May your tribe increase! :smallbiggrin:

[Shining Wrath]

Greedy guy in party: "Let's just keep it! You're a Paladin, your will is strong enough to resist it. After all, Axes don't kill people ..."
Axe: "Yes I do!"
Greedy guy: "Quiet, you."

Axes don't kill people. Dominated Paladins with +3 shocking battleaxes kill people!

The Paladin is actually a P/Crusader/Cleric, I'm not sure how many levels of each. His Will saves are good but not overwhelming.

His Fortitude save is amazingly high, though.

[Rubik]

Axes don't kill people. Dominated Paladins with +3 shocking battleaxes kill people!

The Paladin is actually a P/Crusader/Cleric, I'm not sure how many levels of each. His Will saves are good but not overwhelming.

His Fortitude save is amazingly high, though.See if the DM will let him retrain into a crusader/cleric/prestige paladin, followed by some levels in ruby knight vindicator (refluffed to a different deity -- why do PrCs that have nothing to do with a specific deity have deity prereqs?).

[Shining Wrath]

See if the DM will let him retrain into a crusader/cleric/prestige paladin, followed by some levels in ruby knight vindicator (refluffed to a different deity -- why do PrCs that have nothing to do with a specific deity have deity prereqs?).

Other player has his own ideas on where he's going with the character, but I'll suggest RKV.