Is shadowdancer worth it?

[sambouchah]

My friend Preston always sets his characters up for shadowdancer PrC. I don't understand his obsession with it. He has a barbarian that in two levels he is going to make a shadowdancer. I understand that some of the abilities are a useful addition but still, I don't see the appeal of playing the same PrC with every character.

Mainly I think his attraction to the class is the shadow jump ability. But a martial character such as his current Barbarian, his old monk and his hexblade couldn't they have made a better choice when choosing a Prestige class?

Any suggestions on how to get him to play something else, or is that going too far? It just gets old after the third character being made into the same class over and over again.

[ksbsnowowl]

Point him toward Telflammar Shadow Lord.

:smallwink:

[sambouchah]

Point him toward Telflammar Shadow Lord.

:smallwink:

Elaborate?

And actually he had an invisible blade that was a super fun RP addition and good help in more than one encounter.

[RFLS]

Elaborate?

And actually he had an invisible blade that was a super fun RP addition and good help in more than one encounter.

Shadow Lord gets an ability that lets it make a full attack immediately after a Dimension Door or similar teleport ability is used. It's insanely powerful; I think it's found in one of the 3.0 Faerun splats.

[Telonius]

Honestly I've never found Shadow Jump to be all that useful, except as a "get me out of here" button. I really can't see what good it's going to do a Barbarian. It's a Standard Action to activate it, which means he can't attack afterwards. (EDIT: absent Telflammar cheese, of course - and even there he'll have to sink two more feats into Spring Attack and Blind-Fight, plus somehow getting +2d6 sneak dice). The three-feat tax means he's only got four feats to play around with (+1 if human, -1 if he's doing the sensible thing and getting Power Attack). That's not much room for powerful combos.

Hide in Plain Sight is the PrC's best feature, and it works best when combined with precision damage (like Sneak Attack). But three feats is a pretty heavy tax to get it, especially when there are things like the Dark template (Tome of Magic) that will give it to you for +1 LA.

[sambouchah]

Honestly I've never found Shadow Jump to be all that useful, except as a "get me out of here" button. I really can't see what good it's going to do a Barbarian. It's a Standard Action to activate it, which means he can't attack afterwards. (EDIT: absent Telflammar cheese, of course - and even there he'll have to sink two more feats into Spring Attack and Blind-Fight, plus somehow getting +2d6 sneak dice). The three-feat tax means he's only got four feats to play around with (+1 if human, -1 if he's doing the sensible thing and getting Power Attack). That's not much room for powerful combos.

Hide in Plain Sight is the PrC's best feature, and it works best when combined with precision damage (like Sneak Attack). But three feats is a pretty heavy tax to get it, especially when there are things like the Dark template (Tome of Magic) that will give it to you for +1 LA.

His Barbarian is a brb-5/ftr-2 but I agree that three feats isn't worth the trouble.

[Rubik]

You should suggest that he look into the swordsage, from Tome of Battle. It has shadow jumping abilities it can use more or less at will (as a standard/move/swift action, depending on the level of the maneuver), which you can combine with strikes which grant attacks with benefits to go along with.

If he doesn't want to go swordsage, he can take levels in the other two classes (along with a feat to grab the maneuvers he wants) or just take a (far more limited in use) maneuver with a feat.

[DEMON]

You should suggest that he look into the swordsage, from Tome of Battle. It has shadow jumping abilities it can use more or less at will (as a standard/move/swift action, depending on the level of the maneuver), which you can combine with strikes which grant attacks with benefits to go along with.

If he doesn't want to go swordsage, he can take levels in the other two classes (along with a feat to grab the maneuvers he wants) or just take a (far more limited in use) maneuver with a feat.

+1 - If ToB is on the table, Swordsage is definately a better choice for the shadow jumping and some other shadow-themed abilities.

Shadowdancer might seem good on paper (to new players) but it really is kind of a weak PrC with a feat-intensive prereqs.

[Piggy Knowles]

Shadowdancer's HiPS is actually strictly better than the Dark template version from ToM.

Tactical teleportation is useful from a utility standpoint even if you don't have shadow pounce, but its value in combat is going to hinge on what kind of encounters your DM throws at you. If most combat sessions take place in more or less an open field of various sizes, maybe with an obstruction or two tossed in for flavor, then it's mostly there for "oh crap" purposes. If your DM is like me and tends to run encounters with a significant amount of environmental hazards, difficult terrain and three dimensional aspects, it becomes a bit more handy.

Still, a feat and an item gives you tactical teleportation at will, and an inferior but still decent version of HiPS. Unless you're already taking most of the prerequisite feats for another reason, shadowdancer is often only worth it in core-only games.

[Curmudgeon]

Shadowdancer's HiPS is actually strictly much better than the Dark template version from ToM.
I adjusted that for you.

Dark Creature Hide in Plain Sight is Extraordinary, and like most such versions of HiPS, it only satisfies the "not being observed" requirement to be allowed to Hide; you still need to satisfy the cover/concealment requirement independently. And, of course, this HiPS completely fails to work in daylight (so, roughly half the time when outdoors).

In contrast, the Shadowdancer Supernatural HiPS works anywhere you're within 10' of any sort of shadow. A single blade of grass nearby, and any source of light, will do the trick. Pretty much the only time you won't be able to Hide with this ability is if it's pitch black. All the Supernatural versions of HiPS remove the cover/concealment requirement as well as the "not being observed" requirement for the Hide skill.

The contrast is between the single weakest of all the versions of Hide in Plain Sight, and one of the strongest.

[ksbsnowowl]

Shadow Lord gets an ability that lets it make a full attack immediately after a Dimension Door or similar teleport ability is used. It's insanely powerful; I think it's found in one of the 3.0 Faerun splats.
To clarify, it's in Unapproachable East, which is one of the few books that is 3.25; the book had already implemented every core 3.5 change (skills, feats, etc) except DR, which was the last change they decided to make when rolling out 3.5.

If Tome of Battle is on the table, a Barb 5/Ftr 2/Swordsage 2/TSL X would be doable and quite effective. Sprinkle in more Swordsage levels to gain the higher level teleport effects. There are also good items from Magic Item Comp that allow you to teleport as swift, move, and standard actions.

[Answerer]

Shadowdancer is good for one level for the very-good version of HiPS. Otherwise, it's not really all that special. Even in Core, the Horizon Walker gets much better teleportation.

[drax75]

This sounded like a interest build idea.

Shadow Template Human:
2 Ftr/5 Rog/ 1 Shadow Dancer

Level 9 Total:

Feats:

Human: Dodge
Level 1: Mobility
Fighter 1: Combat Reflexes
Fighter 2: Blind Fighting
Level 3: Spring Attack
Level 6: Weapon Finesse
Level 9: Two-Weapon Fighting

Now you have evasion, uncanny dodge, The Better Hide in Plan Sight, Sneak Attack, and you can Qualify for Telflammar Shadowlord for the perks, or keep working on rogue.

Maybe try that?

[Glimbur]

If it's free, short distance teleport you want, you could take two levels of Totemist from Magic of Incarnum. Two levels lets you bind the blink shirt to your totem chakra, so you can short-range Dim Door as a move action. Plus you can get, say, natural armor or other fun perks.

It does require learning Incarnum though.

On topic, I'd argue that 2/3 of Shadowdancer's feats are terrible.

[sambouchah]

What about the shadow companion? That is another of his big things about it

[Person_Man]

Shadowdancer, like most prestige classes published early in the D&D run, is terrible. Swordsage and Totemist are both much better options.

Obscure Totemist pro-tip: In addition to Move Action Dimension Door via the Blink Shirt soulmeld bound to your Totem Chakra (which Glimbur mentioned) they can also get a really potent Shadow Mantle soulmeld bound to their Shoulder chakra (which they can do at level 9). The mechanics are a bit weird. But basically as a Swift Action you can create (or turn off) a globe of darkness with a radius of 5 ft per point of essentia (5-30ish), you gain Blindsight of the same radius, you are Invisible to everyone within the radius (and there is no mechanic for it being dispelled, and thus it's essentially Greater Invisibility), but you can't see anyone outside of the globe of darkness radius.

You can also get Telepathy (and thus Mindsight), Tremorsense, ethereal movement, impressive Hide and Move Silently bonuses, LOTS of extra attacks, (you can even get a constant undead companion, if getting a shadow companion is a big deal and you're willing to go Totemist/Incarnate/PrC) and many other goodies that accomplish everything the Shadow Dancer can do, but better.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Shadowdancer, like most prestige classes published early in the D&D run, is terrible. Swordsage and Totemist are both much better options.Agreed. So is the PrC in MoI which can net you HiPS with a three-level dip


Obscure Totemist pro-tip: In addition to Move Action Dimension Door via the Blink Shirt soulmeld bound to your Totem Chakra (which Glimbur mentioned) they can also get a really potent Shadow Mantle soulmeld bound to their Shoulder chakra (which they can do at level 9). The mechanics are a bit weird. But basically as a Swift Action you can create (or turn off) a globe of darkness with a radius of 5 ft per point of essentia (5-30ish), you gain Blindsight of the same radius, you are Invisible to everyone within the radius (and there is no mechanic for it being dispelled, and thus it's essentially Greater Invisibility), but you can't see anyone outside of the globe of darkness radius. Umm... [citation needed]

Shadow Mantle provides Darkness. Unfortunately, the only thing Darkness does is grant Concealment. There's nothing about blocking LoS, and certainly nothing about being invisible. Granted, it is a handy shadow to be walking around in, and handy to pair with Ex versions of HiPS since it grants Concealment, but that's about it.

It's not bad, don't get me wrong, but it's not Improved Invisibility by any means.

Blink Shirt, however, is precisely as advertised, bound to Totem it is move-action DimDoor. With a form of ShadowPouncing, you can easily get 2-3 FULL attacks per turn. At a minimum, two full attacks and a standard action.

You can also get Telepathy (and thus Mindsight), Tremorsense, ethereal movement, impressive Hide and Move Silently bonuses, LOTS of extra attacks, (you can even get a constant undead companion, if getting a shadow companion is a big deal and you're willing to go Totemist/Incarnate/PrC) and many other goodies that accomplish everything the Shadow Dancer can do, but better.

However, not all of these at one time. All meldshapers are strictly limited by the number of binds they can bind at any given time.

[Telonius]

What about the shadow companion? That is another of his big things about it

The shadow companion is pretty fragile. From your posts, it sounds like he's going to take his first level of Shadowdancer at 9, so he gets the Companion at 11. It has 19 hitpoints. By level 14, it will have 32 hitpoints. At level 17, it maxes out at 45 hitpoints. Its attack bonus is pretty bad and doesn't get much better. Its saves don't get better with it's masters, like Familiars do. It can't deliver spells. The only thing it can do is do a Strength Damage attack that's completely negated by Death Ward.

Even at level 11, most things you'll be fighting will have magical weapons of some sort. It does have a 50% miss chance, but pretty much anything that hits it is going to destroy it and (on a bad saving throw) possibly take a load of XP along with it. (Granted it's a Barbarian base, but Shadowdancer has a poor Fort save).

[Curmudgeon]

Agreed. So is the PrC in MoI which can net you HiPS with a three-level dip
Not without some additional resources, though. You need to invest 10 points of essentia to get that HiPS ability, and the combination of Umbral Disciple entry requirement and what the PrC gives you by level 3 is just 3 points total.

[Phelix-Mu]

Shadowdancer, off the top of my head, got a fairly substantial downgrade from 3.0 to 3.5. Too bad, because it was great flavor, not hot stuff mechanically. The shadow friend critter used to get you multiple shadows, not unlike the still-good Soldier of Light and its xag-ya energon companions. Why they went to all the trouble of making okay stuff worse for 3.5 I will never know.

So Sun School only works for monks, so the go to sounds like the Telflammar choice.

Shadowdancer might be dipable if you can account for those requisite feats, such as them being necessary for something else, or if an understanding DM has done something about the underpowered Dodge/Mobility issue. By RAW, it's terrible except for something that relies on really good HiPS.

Go Tome of Battle. It may be easier to sell a DM on ToB as a boon for martial classes (who are terribly lackluster compared to the god-casters), as opposed to incarnum, which is in many ways another magic system (not to mention pretty complex in some respects). Not that totemist isn't good buff to melee options, but I find the setting fluff for incarnum much harder to swing (glowy blue stuff has always been around, sure, and it's the same stuff as souls...?) I am having to work its emergence into my setting into some kind of custom campaign or part of the world where it's always been around (maybe both).... In any case, ToB is just people that have spent a very silly amount of time training with their weapons and special techniques for combat, with limited out of combat utility.

[Answerer]

Dodge and Mobility pull double duty for a Swordsage because they're some of the more painful parts of qualifying for Master of the Nine. As an Unarmed Swordsage (for Improved Unarmed Strike), dip Cleric for the Darkness Domain (and assorted other awesomeness) to get Blind-fight, grab Desert Wind Dodge and buy some Mobility armor, drop a level in Shadowdancer, and of course take Adaptive Style, and you've hit all Master of the Nine's requirements while losing only one IL and using only two feats (one of which, let's be honest, you were going to take anyway).

[Kuulvheysoon]

Not without some additional resources, though. You need to invest 10 points of essentia to get that HiPS ability, and the combination of Umbral Disciple entry requirement and what the PrC gives you by level 3 is just 3 points total.

Just out of curiosity, where are you getting this?


...each attack made against has a 10% miss chance per point of essentia invested in this ability. This miss chance does not stack with miss chances provided by any other ability or effect.

If the miss chance granted by this ability is 20% or higher, you also get the ability to hide in plain sight.

From what I'm reading, a 2 point investment gets you HiPS, and by this point, you'e already got at least 4 points of essentia anyways.

[Metahuman1]

Maybe just point him at a shadowcraft mage? (Tome of Magic.)

Just a though.

[sambouchah]

Maybe just point him at a shadowcraft mage? (Tome of Magic.)

Just a though.

He doesn't grasp the concept of magic. After playing for a year that would be a good thing to learn but he hasn't bothered yet.

[Curmudgeon]

Just out of curiosity, where are you getting this?
Out of a complete misreading, as it happens. I thought it was 10% plus another 1% additional concealment per point of essential. (It seems I did need to scrape/wash off the tomato and cheese rather than relying on my memory. D&D and pizza is a great combination; D&D books and pizza, not so much.)

My apologies for the confusion. :smallredface:

[StreamOfTheSky]

Shadowdancer is ok as a 1 or 2 level dip, any more than that is foolhardy.

Even the small dip is often not worth the feat investment, though that can be mitigated somewhat (Mobility armor enhancement from MIC to save a feat and Desert Wind or Expeditious Dodge instead of Dodge).

[Person_Man]

Umm... [citation needed]

Shadow Mantle provides Darkness. Unfortunately, the only thing Darkness does is grant Concealment. There's nothing about blocking LoS, and certainly nothing about being invisible. Granted, it is a handy shadow to be walking around in, and handy to pair with Ex versions of HiPS since it grants Concealment, but that's about it.

It's not bad, don't get me wrong, but it's not Improved Invisibility by any means.


The darkness generated by Shadow Mantle is different from the darkness generated by other spells and effects. Allow me to briefly quote the relevant text of the Shoulder chakra bind of the Shadow Mantle soulmeld:


"As a swift action, you can surround yourself with a globe of magical darkness to a radius of 5 feet per point of invested essentia. You also gain blindsight with the same radius. Thus, you are completely aware of all creatures within the radius of darkness, but you are invisible to them unless they have some way of piercing magical darkness. On the other hand, creatures beyond the radius of your darkness are invisible to you, but they can guess your location within the darkness."

Now, this is probably just sloppy editing or a misunderstanding of how darkness works for other effects. But it explicitly says "you are invisible" - without any other reference to a miss chance or concealment (like other darkness effects). So I think it's clear that Shadow Mantle makes you Invisible.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

The darkness generated by Shadow Mantle is different from the darkness generated by other spells and effects. Allow me to briefly quote the relevant text of the Shoulder chakra bind of the Shadow Mantle soulmeld:



Now, this is probably just sloppy editing or a misunderstanding of how darkness works for other effects. But it explicitly says "you are invisible" - without any other reference to a miss chance or concealment (like other darkness effects). So I think it's clear that Shadow Mantle makes you Invisible.

Hmmm... you have a valid point. I had originally interpreted this as "flavor text from the idiot who didn't know what Darkness actually does". The word 'Thus' that starts it off implies that this is the implied effect of Darkness, which is false. Thus I chalked it off to fluff.

I think that it would be best if this was left in the area of 'up to DM interpretation', such as things like the Strong Heart Vest vs HFW. It would make the bind very much worth it, though, so I could see it as a reasonable interpretation.

It would do very well with a one-level dip into Warlock for Devil's Sight to be able to see in magical darkness to remove the limitation on it.

[Talderas]

I adjusted that for you.

Dark Creature Hide in Plain Sight is Extraordinary, and like most such versions of HiPS, it only satisfies the "not being observed" requirement to be allowed to Hide; you still need to satisfy the cover/concealment requirement independently. And, of course, this HiPS completely fails to work in daylight (so, roughly half the time when outdoors).

Keep in mind the origin of the Dark Creature template. They're creatures that are native residents of the Shadow Plane and the Shadow Plane lacks anything resembling daylight. The ability is very reliable for dark creatures when they are on their home plane. That it's not as effective on other planes I don't consider a huge issue.

[Andezzar]

His Barbarian is a brb-5/ftr-2 but I agree that three feats isn't worth the trouble.That character will not qalify for Shadowdancer for a long time. Neither of the two classes has the three required skills as class skills. If he continues to level fighter and/or Barbarian he will only be able to take the first shadowdancer level at 18.


Keep in mind the origin of the Dark Creature template. They're creatures that are native residents of the Shadow Plane and the Shadow Plane lacks anything resembling daylight. The ability is very reliable for dark creatures when they are on their home plane. That it's not as effective on other planes I don't consider a huge issue.Do not forget either that the creature with that template gets the extraplanar subtype while on the material plane and most other planes. So clerics and wizard can send him "home" to the shadow plane. Does he have means to come back?

[ericgrau]

Well a dip in a variety of classes can get him the skills.

I dunno, if he already built the guy to hit really hard in melee then the next concern is actually getting next to the foes. If there is a lot of terrain or creatures that prevent that, it could be ok. Maybe there are better ways, but it isn't horrible.

Summon shadow is what sticks out the most for me. It's low CR for PCs, but most monsters have a much harder time countering the incorporeal. And unlike monsters, PCs have a much harder time becoming ethereal.

[Daftendirekt]

Maybe just point him at a shadowcraft mage? (Tome of Magic.)

Just a though.

Erm, Shadowcraft Mage is in Races of Stone. You're thinking of the Shadowcaster.

[chrisgray86]

Nope totally not worth it..... Our rogue is a total (not smart person) I dont want to get in trouble. But anyway I dont know if its because of they way his skill points are set or because he cant roll worth crap but he always fails he checks he has fallen and screwed up his dance checks more than I can count. It is funny though he was flerting with another character and failed a dance check so It was funny to watch him try to get out of that....