Mystic Ranger Caster Level?

[MustacheFart]

Hey Everyone,

It's been a long time since I've posted here but something has come up recently that I'm hoping you all can help me on.

I am wanting to play a Mystic Ranger. My DM has stated that a Mystic Ranger would have a caster level of: Mystic Ranger Class level/2 because the class progresses as a ranger unless stated otherwise.

Is this correct? If is then that means at level 1 I'll have a caster level of 1/2 so even though I get access to 0-level spells and 1st-level spells at 1st level I won't be able to cast them!

Am I missing something?

Also if it's following ranger then I wouldn't have a caster level at all since it says specifically that until level 4 a ranger has no caster level.

Please help!

[A_S]

I don't have the relevant issue of Dragon on hand, so I can't confirm or deny whether mystic rangers progress caster level at half rate like normal rangers do.

That said, if they do, it wouldn't affect what spells they can cast (there's no rule relating caster level to the maximum level of spell you can cast...that's determined by your casting class' spell progression and your casting stat). It would just mean their spells are weaker (lower duration, less damage dice, shorter range, etc...whatever variables are affected by caster level in a spell's description).

At level 1, this might result in some wonkiness (e.g., spells with 0 duration), but it won't make any of your spells uncastable.

[DEMON]

RAW - CL = Ranger level/2 (which makes no sense, since he gets spells at 1st level)
RAI - most probably CL = Ranger level

[Thrice Dead Cat]

DEMON has the RAW of it. Oddly enough, this can be beneficial when it comes to crafting things, but that's more a boon to Archivists and Artificers than your character.

[MustacheFart]

RAW - CL = Ranger level/2 (which makes no sense, since he gets spells at 1st level)
RAI - most probably CL = Ranger level

Thank you for clearing that up. Though since RAW says it progresses as a ranger unless stated otherwise would that not mean that a mystic ranger is subject to the first part about caster level for rangers where it says:

Through 3rd level, a ranger has no caster level. At 4th level and higher, his caster level is one-half his ranger level.


RAI - most probably CL = Ranger level

Unfortunately my DM doesn't feel the same way.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Luckily, you can take Practiced Spellcaster at Mystic Ranger 1.

[Curmudgeon]

I am wanting to play a Mystic Ranger. My DM has stated that a Mystic Ranger would have a caster level of: Mystic Ranger Class level/2 because the class progresses as a ranger unless stated otherwise.

Is this correct? If is then that means at level 1 I'll have a caster level of 1/2 so even though I get access to 0-level spells and 1st-level spells at 1st level I won't be able to cast them!

Am I missing something?
Mystic Rangers don't get level 1 spells until 2nd level; that's something you're missing. Otherwise, however, your DM's "as a ranger unless stated otherwise" doesn't quite work; it seems the DM is missing something from the Dragon page detailing this variant.

Here's what the standard Ranger gets for caster level, in two neat sentences.
Through 3rd level, a ranger has no caster level. At 4th level and higher, his caster level is one-half his ranger level. So the DM is already changing that normal Ranger spellcasting progression by striking the first sentence. The Dragon article says:
Hence, this form of ranger gains spell abilities much sooner, and is able to wield them more effectively than the standard ranger class. Basically, the first part means that the DM was right to strike the first CL sentence. However, if the Mystic Ranger has the same caster level as the standard Ranger, they're not able to wield spells more effectively than standard. So, basically, the second CL sentence of the standard Ranger also needs revision.

How your DM revises that second sentence isn't specified, but it does need to meet the "more effectively" stipulation of the variant.

[MustacheFart]

Mystic Rangers don't get level 1 spells until 2nd level; that's something you're missing. Otherwise, however, your DM's "as a ranger unless stated otherwise" doesn't quite work; it seems the DM is missing something from the Dragon page detailing this variant.

Here's what the standard Ranger gets for caster level, in two neat sentences. So the DM is already changing that normal Ranger spellcasting progression by striking the first sentence. The Dragon article says: Basically, the first part means that the DM was right to strike the first CL sentence. However, if the Mystic Ranger has the same caster level as the standard Ranger, they're not able to wield spells more effectively than standard. So, basically, the second CL sentence of the standard Ranger also needs revision.

How your DM revises that second sentence isn't specified, but it does need to meet the "more effectively" stipulation of the variant.

Thank you. That's how I saw it although I was not quite so able to express it to my DM as well as you have.

[paigeoliver]

I am the gamemaster in question. I read the class over and saw it didn't quite work and took the quickest ruling I could to make it work without overpowering it. Which can be important, since the original poster is using this with another trick in order to turn the spellcasting arcane and then shoehorning it into a Cloistered Cleric/Swift Hunter build that is already incredibly powerful.

The Mystic Ranger as presented in dragon magazine using a strict interpretation of the rules would gain no caster level at all until 4th. As all it does in relation to spellcasting is change the ranger spell list and spell chart and says that everything else is as a standard ranger. It does not define the ranger spellcasting, instead it leaves it as it was with a standard ranger.

Now obviously they didn't intend for the character not to be able to cast spells until 4th level, otherwise they wouldn't have given them spell slots before then.

There are two possible intents the designer had.

One is that the class was indeed supposed to have full caster level. However it seems like that is the sort of thing they would have mentioned, particularly since full bab and a full divine caster level isn't really something that you can normally get so easily. Not to mention the fact that this completely overpowers this variant.

The second is that it was supposed to be half caster level, like a normal ranger is and the author missed the sentence in the original ranger class about the caster level. In fact that sentence really serves no purpose other to say that the ranger doesn't have a caster level before they can cast spells (probably the real intent there).

[MustacheFart]

Well it openly states the mystic ranger uses spells more effectively than the typical ranger. I thought the effectiveness of a caster by definition is determined by caster level. Isn't that what caster level is supposed to represent?

Maybe they left that out because they assumed it was obvious since they get spells at level 1. The other base classes that get spells at level 1 have full caster level progression. If they only get 1/2 level, a 20th level mystic ranger casts spells with the same effectiveness as a 20th level ranger.

[Curmudgeon]

There are two possible intents the designer had.

One is that the class was indeed supposed to have full caster level.
...
The second is that it was supposed to be half caster level, like a normal ranger ...
I really don't see those as the only possibilities. In fact, I don't see the second "possible intent" being consistent with this statement:

Hence, this form of ranger gains spell abilities much sooner, and is able to wield them more effectively than the standard ranger class. A level 1 Mystic Ranger, with your CL = level/2 idea, can go through the motions to cast Create Water; however, with a caster level of 0 it creates 0 gallons of water. (That's not "effective" spellcasting by any reckoning.) One other obvious option would be CL = (level/2) + 1; that at least addresses this particular problem.

However it seems like that is the sort of thing they would have mentioned, particularly since full bab and a full divine caster level isn't really something that you can normally get so easily. I don't see why you would say that, as any Cleric capable of casting Divine Power has both of those on demand. (Plus, of course, access to spells up to 9th level rather than just the 5th level of the Mystic Ranger.) With other options (Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell)) the Cleric can have full BAB not just on demand, but continuously. A standard Ranger is a Tier (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=266559) 4 character; Mystic Ranger may up that to Tier (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=266559) 3. That's nothing that should cause you concern in a game which has Clerics or other Tier (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=266559) 1 spellcasters in it.

You're the DM, so you have the job of filling in the gaps where the rules authors forgot things. Heeding as much of what they did specify lets you make decisions on a sound basis. In this case they specified that the Mystic Ranger should be wielding spells more effectively than the standard Ranger — at the expense of their animal companion and slower combat style progression. If you decide to ignore that, you're making the conscious decision to disregard the existing rules guidance.

[A_S]

A standard Ranger is a Tier (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=266559) 4 character; Mystic Ranger may up that to Tier (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=266559) 3.

I've heard this other places on this forum, too, and I think it's dubious. At level 20, sure, maybe a full-BAB, skill-heavy chassis that can cast level 5 spells is only tier 3, but the tier system isn't supposed to exclusively reflect level 20 potential, it's supposed to be a general summary of a class' performance across its lifespan. And, Mystic Ranger for its first 10 levels gets:

Sorcerer spell progression (and one feat away from Wiz/Sorc spell list access)
Full BAB
d8 HD
6 SP/level with a good skill list
Useful class features on top of that

That's, like, Lightning Warrior levels of broken. I think, unless you're starting at like level 16 or above, Mystic Ranger functions a lot more like a tier 1 class than a tier 3 class, it just falls off at high levels. I mean, tier 1 classes are distinguished by having tons of options, right? What has more options than a class that casts prepared spells from two spell lists, fights on a high-BAB chassis, and has a ton of skill points?

[paigeoliver]

Well it openly states the mystic ranger uses spells more effectively than the typical ranger. I thought the effectiveness of a caster by definition is determined by caster level. Isn't that what caster level is supposed to represent?


It really isn't my responsibility to rewrite a class from a magazine article to match the flavor text in the article. Anyway, even going down that road, having higher level spells is more effective spellcasting than not having higher level spells. This little discussion probably had more effort and thought put into it than was put into the actual class we are discussing.

Even with the half caster levels it is still quite a bit stronger than the stock ranger. It gives up weak and relatively unimportant things in exchange for the strongest divine casting I have ever seen in a full BAB base class (the existence of a round per level spell on the cleric list that gives them full BAB does not mean that clerics have full BAB).

When it comes to my game, I am generally always going to choose the more conservative of the possible rulings when things are unable to be determined clearly. In this case the class itself was designed defectively, so I am fixing it in the easiest, most conservative possible manner. Or I can just let it run as written and have no caster level until 4th level. Original poster can choose either one.

[Curmudgeon]

And, Mystic Ranger for its first 10 levels gets:

Sorcerer spell progression (and one feat away from Wiz/Sorc spell list access)

That's, like, Lightning Warrior levels of broken.
You might want to check that again, particularly the Spells per Day at level 10:
{table=head]Class | 0th | 1st | 2nd | 3rd | 4th | 5th
Sorcerer | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 5 | 3
Mystic Ranger | 4 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 1[/table]
They Mystic Ranger at level 20 gets fewer spells than the Sorcerer does at level 10. And, of course, the Ranger spell list is miniscule in comparison to the Sorcerer's.

Since you alluded to Sword of the Arcane Order, it's worth noting that this requires both getting a spellbook (and the expenses associated with acquiring the spells for it: no free spells with SotAO!) and use of a completely new casting stat. That forces the Mystic Ranger (who's already dependent on multiple attributes) to spread their resources to cover even more stats in order to function. And those arcane spells come at the cost of fewer divine spells; see above for how very few spells the Mystic Ranger gets compared to a Sorcerer.

[MustacheFart]

(and one feat away from Wiz/Sorc spell list access)
Excuse me, but what feat would that be? Do you mean the Sword of the Arcane Order feat?

If you do then I'm sorry but you are wrong. The SoTAO feat only grants the ability to prep wizard spells in ranger spell slots. It does not grant access to the Wizard/Sorc spell list!


When it comes to my game, I am generally always going to choose the more conservative of the possible rulings when things are unable to be determined clearly. In this case the class itself was designed defectively, so I am fixing it in the easiest, most conservative possible manner. Or I can just let it run as written and have no caster level until 4th level. Original poster can choose either one.

Given that fact that I already took the 24-point buy for using a tier 1 class and my DM's above "fix"*** (asterisks = triple thought that it's more of a restriction rewrite), I am almost wondering if it would be more beneficial if I just took regular old Ranger with the Shooting Star Substitution levels.

[A_S]

Excuse me, but what feat would that be? Do you mean the Sword of the Arcane Order feat?

If you do then I'm sorry but you are wrong. The SoTAO feat only grants the ability to prep wizard spells in ranger spell slots. It does not grant access to the Wizard/Sorc spell list!

What do you call "the ability to prep wizard spells" if not access to the wizard spell list? Which list do you think they come from? I mean, you have to buy scrolls or borrow a spellbook instead of getting two free per level, but...who cares?

*edit*
[snippage]

I see what you're saying, here, and you've got a point. I don't see having to get your own spells or the MAD issue as being terribly crucial, because:

A. if wizards can get a given spell in your DM's setting, I don't see any good justification for why it wouldn't be available as a scroll, and the expenses to maintaining a spellbook aren't especially high
B. Most characters need decent int anyway for skills

...but the spells/day issue does hurt a lot.

That said, you've also got a lot more options than a wiz/sorc does when you're out of spells (since you've got twice the BAB, twice the HP, 3x the skills). I think it sort of evens out, but if you disagree I could see that as a good reason to call them tier 3.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

I've heard this other places on this forum, too, and I think it's dubious. At level 20, sure, maybe a full-BAB, skill-heavy chassis that can cast level 5 spells is only tier 3, but the tier system isn't supposed to exclusively reflect level 20 potential, it's supposed to be a general summary of a class' performance across its lifespan.

The tier list is valid at more than just the 20th level. As has been said before, a first level wizard can shut down an encounter by means of color spray, sleep, or grease. Those are the three prime examples, but even ray of enfeeblement and cause fear can also damper a would-be problem's day.

[A_S]

The tier list is valid at more than just the 20th level. As has been said before, a first level wizard can shut down an encounter by means of color spray, sleep, or grease. Those are the three prime examples, but even ray of enfeeblement and cause fear can also damper a would-be problem's day.

...yes. I'm aware of that. It's central to my argument for why I think Mystic Ranger should be considered higher than tier 3 (because, at levels 2-10, it has access to all those same encounter-ending options that a sorcerer does).

*edit*
the tier system isn't supposed to exclusively reflect level 20 potential

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Not without SotAO and a spellbook. Not to mention the limit of one standard action per round and dependency on every stat save Cha, assuming you're trying to Gish it up. You can avoid Int, but that leaves out the wizard list.

It's certainly better than normal Ranger, especially with all the goodies in SpC, but that's why it jumps up to tier 3 versus, say 2, as it lacks more of the overt effects that full casters have unless they spend a feat at 6th level.

[paigeoliver]

It doesn't grant access to the list, but that is a relatively minor distinction that isn't really that important outside of activating magic items and a few prestige class cases. It is still absolutely one of the strongest feats a spellcasting ranger can take, particularly a Mystic Ranger.


Excuse me, but what feat would that be? Do you mean the Sword of the Arcane Order feat?

If you do then I'm sorry but you are wrong. The SoTAO feat only grants the ability to prep wizard spells in ranger spell slots. It does not grant access to the Wizard/Sorc spell list!

[A_S]

Not without SotAO and a spellbook. Not to mention the limit of one standard action per round and dependency on every stat save Cha, assuming you're trying to Gish it up. You can avoid Int, but that leaves out the wizard list.

It's certainly better than normal Ranger, especially with all the goodies in SpC, but that's why it jumps up to tier 3 versus, say 2, as it lacks more of the overt effects that full casters have unless they spend a feat at 6th level.

I guess I'm assuming SotAO; without it, Mystic Ranger is definitely only t3. But that feat is so good I feel like it's on par with Natural Spell; it's not a feat, it's a class feature that eats on of your feats. Only difference being that it's not quite as universally allowed.

[Phelix-Mu]

I've read a lot about Sword of the Arcane Order today; where can I find this feat?

[Karnith]

I've read a lot about Sword of the Arcane Order today; where can I find this feat?
It's in Champions of Valor; it requires you to be a 4th level paladin or ranger of Azuth or Mystra, and a member of one of the knightly orders presented in the book (each order corresponds to one of the class/deity combinations, but I don't recall which corresponds to which). Taking it allows you to prepare wizard spells from a spellbook in your paladin/ranger spell slots.

[Lonely Tylenol]

EDIT: Spoilered is what I am right now:

http://gifsoup.com/view5/2166935/wrong-wrong-wrong-wrong-o.gif

[Thrice Dead Cat]

*snip*

Except that's not at all true. From level 18 to level 19, the Mystic Ranger gains an additional 3rd level spell slot.

[Karnith]

There is another, very unpopular option that is not being mentioned here:

The spells per day progression chart of the Mystic Ranger is only 17 levels long. The normal Ranger doesn't gain access to spells until 4th level (and has a spells per day progression that is 17 levels long).
I'm not actually sure what you mean here; my copy of Dragon 336 has the Mystic Ranger spellcasting progression for levels 1 through 20, and has spell slots listed at every level.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Except that's not at all true. From level 18 to level 19, the Mystic Ranger gains an additional 3rd level spell slot.

Please allow me to quietly eat my words. :smallredface:

[mikethepoor]

Reading the class as given doesn't specifically mention an exception to the normal CL progression of the ranger, so I'd assume it's at half the mystic ranger level. I'd ask your DM if they'd allow an exception to count your caster level as minimum 1st so you can at least use spells right from the start.