"It sounded better." "It's a trap!" "Why did they make this?!" [PF] [Archive]

Tanuki Tales

2013-02-13, 02:25 PM

So, I've been aware of Pathfinder since the release of the playtest and have been playing it with my group since around the time that the core rule books were first put into print. I've run a few games here and there, but scheduling has made it hard to keep things going for long (especially since my group was on a SAGAs kick for the longest time). This also resulted in us ending up not really using anything that's been released since the core rules of Pathfinder, even though we gobble up every new book to see what Paizo has given us.

Well, this year we've made our New Year's resolution to be to actually have a long running campaign that doesn't suddenly die and I find myself (per usual) in the GM chair. Unfortunately, I don't have as much system mastery in Pathfinder as I did in Dungeons and Dragons 3.5, so I'm coming to you all for some help.

What classes/races/feats/archetypes/items/rules/etc. would you all say falls under the following:

It sounded better: These are the kind of things that either look better on paper than they turn out to actually work in practice or have a good theory behind them but were executed horribly.
It's a trap!: Like Toughness in 3.5, these are the things that are either purposeful pitfalls that those with system mastery learn to avoid or are really just terrible but try to pretend that they aren't.
Why did they make this?!: These are the things that just make you scratch your head. They either just don't flat out work, are so niche that they'll barely ever see the table, are so flat out broken that you have no clue who thought it was a good idea to make them or are so weird/strange/disturbing/etc. that you question who they thought would want to use them.

Thank you very much in advance. :smallsmile:

Starbuck_II

2013-02-13, 02:47 PM

Gildedragon

2013-02-13, 04:02 PM

Why did they make this
Investigate: The expanded abilities of search given by this feat feel like they already ought to be part of the Search skill, if they weren't already. I like to believe this got misedited out of the Skills section of the book and into feats.

Zubrowka74

2013-02-13, 04:15 PM

Why did they make this?!

By consuming 1 pint of blood from a spellcaster killed within the last 24 hours, you can attempt to learn a spell that spellcaster knew. Select one spell available to the dead spellcaster (this must be a spell on your spell list); you gain the knowledge of this spell for 24 hours. During this time, you may write it down (or teach it to your familiar, if you are a witch) using the normal rules for copying a spell from another source. Once you have learned it, you may prepare the spell normally.
The feat is ok. It's kind of cool fluff-wise but at the same time is the kind of goofball theory you'd expect from a raelian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ra%C3%ABlism).

Xerxus

2013-02-13, 04:37 PM

Don't know which category this falls under, but the critical feats are just suuuch a poorly implemented design. They force you to use a weapon with an 18-20 critical range if you want full use of the critical effects. If they scaled with critical multiplier and/or the damage dealt by the critical hit then fine, but nooo...

AttilaTheGeek

2013-02-13, 05:49 PM

Why did they make this?!

Improved and Greater two-weapon fighting. It's a meaningless feat tax for off-hand attacks, and they didn't even add one for a fourth off-hand attack at BAB +16.

navar100

2013-02-13, 07:10 PM

It sounded better

Cavalier - While not everything is about the Mount, when in situations where you can't use your Mount you lose a significant portion of your class abilities. This should have been a prestige class suitable for fighters and paladins eligible for campaigns known to facilitate mounted riding on a regular basis.

Why did they make this

Critical Hits and Critical Fumbles cards. These royally screw warriors who get hit by critical hits the most and make critical fumbles the most. Spellcasters can get off scott free never to be affected if they so choose by never, ever selecting spells that require an attack roll.

It's a trap
The Witch is good but some of the Hexes, especially in Ultimate Magic, are useless. They exist because of real world fantasy witchlore. They can facilitate the roleplay, but they do diddlysquat for substantive use. Witch players needs to choose carefully.

Gunslinger - As the levels progress the damage you do does not scale with the threats you face. Grit lets you do cool things you see in westerns, but they are not a true threat to BBEGs, their Lieutenants, or even mooks.

Snowbluff

2013-02-13, 09:16 PM

Why did they make this

Gunslinger. If they were going to add guns, why not make it an archetype? The class isn't very substantial, and the grit system is pointless since it is so easily subverted.

Baroncognito

2013-02-13, 09:22 PM

Monkey Lounge: you need 2 standard actions to use it

Assuming you mean Monkey Lunge instead of Monkey Lounge, you don't need two standard actions if you're just trying to have a huge threat range for Attacks of Opportunity.

If you do mean Monkey Lounge, I have no idea why they wouldn't make one.

mistformsquirrl

2013-02-13, 09:22 PM

"Why did they make this?" -

Lost Nobility (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/social-traits/lost-nobility)

Thematically I get it, but even for a trait it's so incredibly narrow* that it's never going to come up. There are other traits that you can use to tell a similar story that work BETTER in the same circumstances.

*Only likely to be useful on one quest in an entire (lengthy) campaign, and only then IF your DM takes your backstory into account (they may not).

Raven777

2013-02-13, 09:25 PM

Fast Healer: 1/2 Con mod added to any healing (magic/natural), really issue is it adds too little. Con mod would have made it more useful.

/1 Combine Fast Healer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/fast-healer)...

You benefit greatly from your healing, be it from spells or natural healing.

Prerequisites: Con 13, Diehard, Endurance.

Benefit: When you regain hit points by resting or through magical healing, you recover additional hit points equal to half your Constitution modifier (minimum +1).

/2 ... with Infernal Healing (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/i/infernal-healing)...

You anoint a wounded creature with devil’s blood or unholy water, giving it fast healing 1. This ability cannot repair damage caused by silver weapons, good-aligned weapons, or spells or effects with the good descriptor. The target detects as an evil creature for the duration of the spell and can sense the evil of the magic, though this has no long-term effect on the target’s alignment.

/3 ... And point out Fast Healing (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules#TOC-Fast-Healing-Ex-) counts as Natural healing...

[...] Except where noted here, fast healing is just like natural healing. [...]

/4 ... You now heal (1 + Con Mod/2) per round...

/5 ... Dodge the Core Rulebook being thrown at you...

/6 ... If the fact that the bit about Fast Healing benefiting Natural Healing is spell fluff gets leveled against you, reply with "anyway Fast Healing from Infernal Healing is also *healing from a spell*"...

/7 ... Dodge the gaming table being flipped at you...

Tanuki Tales

2013-02-13, 10:08 PM

Why did they make this

Gunslinger. If they were going to add guns, why not make it an archetype? The class isn't very substantial, and the grit system is pointless since it is so easily subverted.

We know your opinion on this matter Snowbluff...at length. I don't agree on you calling the Gunslinger as such though and can we nip this in the bud and not turn this thread into any at length discussion over this particular tidbit? Please?

Snowbluff

2013-02-14, 12:14 AM

Why did they put this in?

Toppling Spell and Dazing spell. These metamagic are pretty strong and rather cheap. They work a little too well with spells that deal multiple hits, like Magic Missile.

I'll add in magical lineage as well. It reduces the total MM cost to a spell by 1. It's a little strong for a trait, and I don't think melee gets anything quite as good.

We know your opinion on this matter Snowbluff...at length. I don't agree on you calling the Gunslinger as such though and can we nip this in the bud and not turn this thread into any at length discussion over this particular tidbit? Please?
I would like to point out that no discussion is needed. Whether or not you agree on my opinion, it being an opinion doesn't make the facts behind it false. Grit is easily disregarded with signature deed, making Wis a dump stat, and the entire system trivial. The opinion part would be me being bewildered at its addition.

It's the sort of thing this thread is asking for. If you have a constructive comment, please post it instead of this. I am interested in what you have to say in response to the thread. :smallsmile:

Metahuman1

2013-02-14, 12:20 AM

/1 Combine Fast Healer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/fast-healer)...

/2 ... with Infernal Healing (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/i/infernal-healing)...

/3 ... And point out Fast Healing (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules#TOC-Fast-Healing-Ex-) counts as Natural healing...

/4 ... You now heal (1 + Con Mod/2) per round...

/5 ... Dodge the Core Rulebook being thrown at you...

/6 ... If the fact that the bit about Fast Healing benefiting Natural Healing is spell fluff gets leveled against you, reply with "anyway Fast Healing from Infernal Healing is also *healing from a spell*"...

/7 ... Dodge the gaming table being flipped at you...

0.0

Hmmm,

I suddenly want to do this on a Pathfinder Paladin Halfling who's also got Metamagic Rods of Persist Spell for some of his choice buffs and the tricked out custom weapon in place of a mount for his sword, possibly one that makes every attack of his a smite attack.

:smallamused:

Scow2

2013-02-14, 12:21 AM

Shield Ward as a level 20 Capstone - Sorry, too little too late. It should be a feat again.

Starbuck_II

2013-02-14, 12:22 AM

Assuming you mean Monkey Lunge instead of Monkey Lounge, you don't need two standard actions if you're just trying to have a huge threat range for Attacks of Opportunity.

If you do mean Monkey Lounge, I have no idea why they wouldn't make one.

Sadly, won't work:
As a standard action, you can use the Lunge feat to increase the reach of your melee attacks by 5 feet until the end of your turn, without suffering a penalty to your AC. You cannot use this feat if you carry a medium or heavy load.

What is the issue? until the end of your turn
You can't take Attack of opportunities on your turn...you take them after.

See why it is a trap, if you don't read it very carefully, it traps you.

Here is how it can be fixed:
"You can use the Lunge feat to increase the reach of your melee attacks by 5 feet until the end of your turn, without suffering a penalty to your AC. You cannot use this feat if you carry a medium or heavy load."

Just removing the beginning words that call it out as a seperate standard action.

sonofzeal

2013-02-14, 12:49 AM

Monkey Lounge: you need 2 standard actions to use it
Monkey.... Lounge?

That sounds strangely awesome... :smallbiggrin:

http://d24w6bsrhbeh9d.cloudfront.net/photo/4475668_700b.jpg

StreamOfTheSky

2013-02-14, 01:16 AM

PF has harsher trap options than 3E ever did, true story. This is shocking news to a lot of people for some reason, though.

It sounded better:
- The fly skill. Nice in theory, in practice its requirement of having means of flight to train in is just another way to disenfranchise the poor mundane classes trying to scrape by with their winged boots.
- "Let's make a simplified, streamlined combat maneuver system!" Unfortunately, they chose to "streamline" it into "not working." Well, not for the PC melee classes, at least. Works great for the monsters, eidolon, summoned monsters, etc...
- "Let's make traits to encourage roleplaying!" Yeah... shockingly ended up being just one more area to cherry pick awesome stuff from. Didn't help that the fluff was often nonsensical or inconsequential to the crunch. Why does worshipping some fat stupid dwarf god give me uncanny dodge, as opposed to having a childhood living in slums?
- The class skill system. Yeah, that x4 at 1st level only was awkward and lead to a lot of forced level build choices. Yeah, people didn't like paying through the nose for cc ranks (boo hoo, that's the point!). So, why not simplify the whole thing and make it all 1-for-1 cost and same max ranks? Sounds nice, and it is actually elegant... only problem is, now "class skill" is just a cheap joke, a teeny +3 bonus you can easily nab by level dipping or taking traits, and PF didn't really bother to do anything to make it up to the skill monkey classes, particularly rogue....

It's a trap!:
- The Underfoot Adept halfling monk. Makes you think you can trip big creatures like a champ... but leaves you with no fixes to make up for your horrific CMB shortfalls and makes you wait many levels to actually trip large + things.
- Any attempt to make a dex-based warrior other than Magus, Dawnflower Dervish, or very very specific other builds.
- Tumbling. Even if you pimp the hell out of your mod, you will fail at least 40% of the time, probably more. And your hp and damage was likely already worse than the monster's, so now you're giving him 50% more attacks on you to boot as you foolishly try to "skirmish."
- The Comatose Chemist, sometimes known as the Rage Chemist, though my name is much more apt.

Why did they make this?:
(pathetically/crippling weak or actually makes you worse for having it)
- Vow of Poverty
- SKR's defense of Vow of Poverty; yes, it was such a trainwreck it gets its own entry.
- Elephant Stomp
- Monkey Lunge
- Helpless Prisoner
- Monk's speed bonus is now only for land speed. That's not going to invalidate the class feature at higher levels or anything, who cares?
- Flurry can't be combined with 2ndary natural weapons. But TWF unarmed still can. Why should monks be the best at fighting unarmed?
- You can't take Imp. Natural Attack (unarmed), that's cheesy.
- You can't sneak attack with blink, that's cheesy.
- You can't sneak attack with flasks, that's cheesy. Oh, and spalsh weapons can't be quick drawn. Cause we said so, dang it! Stop being cheesy!
(game breakingly powerful)
- Any favored class option for bonus spells known on a spont casting class; basically invalidates every other race from being that class.
- Samsaran's Mystic Past Life
- Paragon Surge, aka, "cast all teh spells!"
- Teleport Conjuration Wizard; because Conj. needed more help
- Opposition Research: Here's a hint, pick the elemental specialist variant. At level 10, you no longer have any opposed school/spells! But still all the bennies!
- Dazing spell metamagic feat. Because why settle for save or die/lose on only fort and will?
- Spell Perfection. Casters needed a reward for being high level, a big one.
- Persistent Spell, because spamming encounter-ending save-based spells needed to be more enticing.

Tanuki Tales

2013-02-14, 02:54 AM

I would like to point out that no discussion is needed. Whether or not you agree on my opinion, it being an opinion doesn't make the facts behind it false.

All I will say is that your opinion =/= fact.

And I will not converse further with you on this matter.

Krazzman

2013-02-14, 07:50 AM

It sounded better...

Flurry of Blows. The errata by SKR... comparing it to TWFing but ruling it inferior, not stackable and! forcing you to keep track of all your appandages separately!

Why did they make this...

Gunslinger. I'm somehow on snowbluffs side for this one. THe whole class is better seen as a Fighter/Ranger/Paladin archetype... The weapons are too overpriced, the ammunition is too overpriced as you are actively shooting GOLD at the enemy while the archer uses maybe silver for his bow.

It's a Trap
The Gunslinger class. You throw around lot's of money. MADness, One-Trick-pony with minor additional stuff and you can basically afford your first masterworked weapon when the fighter get's his first Magical weapon. Depending on implementationgrade either action economy-wise bad or expensive as hell. This all screams trap for me... even as a DM.

Snowbluff

2013-02-14, 08:42 AM

Not sure I agree with gunslinger being MAD. They don't need Str. Wis is pointless if you take Signature Deed. I see one picking up Dex/Con/Int at worst. Everything else makes sense, however.

Why did they put this in?

Sorcerer Bloodline/Casting Class Features. Apparently they thought casters didn't get enough with having spells. If they already get access to new spells every other level, why do they need these little abilities at all? Your spells should be a better use of your actions at most levels.

All I will say is that your opinion =/= fact.

... I think I already recognized this. There are facts involved. I did not come to this opinion arbitrarily. My opinion is that the class is insubstantial, and that Grit is pointless. One of the facts would be Grit can be subverted with a small feat investment.

I am here trying to tell things I know about PF.

Greenish

2013-02-14, 08:47 AM

Do you have anything constructive for the OP? I am here trying to tell him about things I know about PF.:smallamused:

Snowbluff

2013-02-14, 08:48 AM

:smallamused:

Yeah, I noticed. Edited when you were posting.

It's funny that he's asking for help, but doesn't think I have anything useful to say.

Scow2

2013-02-14, 09:37 AM

Why did they put this in?

Sorcerer Bloodline/Casting Class Features. Apparently they thought casters didn't get enough with having spells. If they already get access to new spells every other level, why do they need these little abilities at all? Your spells should be a better use of your actions at most levels.

I actually like this, as it makes Sorcerers stand out as a viable choice next to wizards, and feel like intuitive, hereditary users of magic. Yeah, you have access to Game-breaking spells - but that's because of the spells, not your class itself.

Snowbluff

2013-02-14, 10:11 AM

I actually like this, as it makes Sorcerers stand out as a viable choice next to wizards, and feel like intuitive, hereditary users of magic. Yeah, you have access to Game-breaking spells - but that's because of the spells, not your class itself.

Um, I would like to know how? Wizards are strictly stronger by tier for obvious reason, and they still are better off spell-wise. It's not like Sorcerers were unplayable. They were really strong, just didn't have as many options for breaking the game. Since they were ahead of the curve, I don't think they needed any further buffs.

I don't think they are significant enough to close the cap. Don't wizards get some extra features as well?

Metahuman1

2013-02-14, 10:26 AM

An argument could be made that it works better with fluff.

An argument that I'll actually BUY is that it helps the lower level casters who DO have a hard time having a long enough work day and enough different tricks out. Particularly if your not a wizard or your DM likes the Melee types better.

CTrees

2013-02-14, 10:38 AM

0.0

Hmmm,

I suddenly want to do this on a Pathfinder Paladin Halfling who's also got Metamagic Rods of Persist Spell for some of his choice buffs and the tricked out custom weapon in place of a mount for his sword, possibly one that makes every attack of his a smite attack.

:smallamused:

Alternatively, a Scarred Witch Doctor. Constitution is your casting stat, and Infernal Healing is on your spell list...

Starbuck_II

2013-02-14, 10:44 AM

- Samsaran's Mystic Past Life

To be fair, this ability is awesome. I'm currently using it to give my Bard Haste/Slow as a 2nd level spell (from Summoner).

Metahuman1

2013-02-14, 10:44 AM

CTrees

2013-02-14, 10:54 AM

...

damn, missed the part about infernal healing being a spell.

What would it take to get a Paladin that can cast it?

Actually, I'm also sorta curious as to weather there's a trick to get it on some other classes that are usually not really casty classes.

Well... considering that Infernal Healing is, um, infernal, has the [evil] descriptor, and has the following as its description:

You anoint a wounded creature with devil’s blood or unholy water, giving it*fast healing*1. This ability cannot repair damage caused by silver weapons, good-aligned weapons, or spells or effects with the good descriptor. The target detects as an evil creature for the duration of the spell and can sense the evil of the magic, though this has no long-term effect on the target’s*alignment.

I'm pretty sure even accepting someone else casting the spell on him should cause a paladin to fall. It would work on an Antipaladin, though, and I would allow the research of a [good] version.

As for getting spells from other lists in PF, there are a few methods, but I'm not that familiar with them.

the clumsy bard

2013-02-14, 11:44 AM

I am not defending gunslingers... I agree with the fact that the class is at best a 5 level class that could've been an archetype, but ...

Gunsmithing (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/gunsmithing) a feat gained as a gunslinger.

States the following: If you are a gunslinger, this feat grants the following additional benefit. You can use this feat to repair and restore your initial, battered weapon. It costs 300 gp and 1 day of work to upgrade it to a masterwork firearm of its type. meaning yes it isn't great, but you are not buying an 1800 masterwork pistol or musket at the end of the day.

Snowbluff

2013-02-14, 11:56 AM

Another good point. Masterwork is an awful expense, otherwise.

An argument could be made that it works better with fluff.

An argument that I'll actually BUY is that it helps the lower level casters who DO have a hard time having a long enough work day and enough different tricks out. Particularly if your not a wizard or your DM likes the Melee types better.Fluff-wise, it could work. Mechanically, I don't think you are supposed to be spamming special abilities left and right at level 1.

StreamOfTheSky

2013-02-14, 12:07 PM

The Gunslinger and gun rules in PF are completely broken and they piss me off to the point where it would be difficult for me to play in any game that used them.

They're basically predicated on two major baselines:

1) Spit in the face of as much established rules as humanly possible

2) Make your character's power solely dependent on playing "Mother, May I?" with the DM

I guess I need to explain....

1) How about I just list the ways?

"Ranged touch attacks can't apply deadly aim. Oh, unless you're a special snowflake gun user."

"We didn't like the idea of sneak attacking with touch attack weapons and so removed that ability from splash weapons.... but not for special snowflake gun users."

"You have to pay 1/3 an item's cost in raw materials. Oh, unless you're a special snowflake gun user. Then it's 1/5."

"Getting a super expensive weapon at level 1 would be overpowered, note the starting wealth table we included with the core book. Oh, you're a gunslinger? We'll give you a gun, yeah. But to balance it, we'll give you a special rule whereby you can shoot it but no one who steals it from you can use it against you. That's totally a penalty!"

I could go on, but I don't feel like making myself more angry.

2) If you're playing with early fire arms, congratulations! You're actually balanced with other weapons and time period appropriate for D&D's other equipment! If you're playing with modern or futuristic weapons.... there's literally no point using any other weapon ever. How ever shall we balance these two power extremes?

I know! Let's leave it entirely up to the DM how unbalanced he wants his game to be! Since when is a rules book supposed to attempt to establish what is and isn't balanced in a game, anyway?

...........

There are a lot of ways to balance guns in D&D. You can just say they're reflavored crossbows. You can have them do more damage, but have to roll a scatter die to see where they actually hit (thus, devastating in a mass combat, not so great for accurate shooting). You can make them require a feat to get (can't just be exotic; there's ways to get that w/o a feat) and be slightly better than bows and other martial weapons in return.

PF does none of these things, and makes them even more unbalanced by not just doing high damage, but also hitting touch AC and stacking w/ Deadly Aim! Instead, they "balance" it by making ammo expensive (so in a low or average treasure game you don't use guns, in a monty haul game, you abuse the F out of them, whatever) and giving guns a random chance to overheat/explode. That latter thing is the dumbest freaking form of balance there is. That's like balancing teleportation by saying if you port into a solid object, you auto die. Basically, the rule is overpowered.... then maybe at some point you die / lose the item. If the bad stuff never happens, you're just broken. If it does happen, you're now worthless or dead. Balance by russian roulette isn't balance at all.

Yora

2013-02-14, 12:17 PM

Ghosts always have Climb as a class skill. But can't climb, as they are incorporeal and flying.

Starbuck_II

2013-02-14, 02:09 PM

Ghosts always have Climb as a class skill. But can't climb, as they are incorporeal and flying.

I guess they pretend to climb? But you are right, that is Weird.

Snowbluff

2013-02-14, 03:39 PM

I guess they pretend to climb? But you are right, that is Weird.
Agreed. With the capital W and everything. :smallconfused:

Scow2

2013-02-14, 05:04 PM

The Gunslinger and gun rules in PF are completely broken and they piss me off to the point where it would be difficult for me to play in any game that used them.

They're basically predicated on two major baselines:

1) Spit in the face of as much established rules as humanly possible

2) Make your character's power solely dependent on playing "Mother, May I?" with the DM

I guess I need to explain....

1) How about I just list the ways?

"Ranged touch attacks can't apply deadly aim. Oh, unless you're a special snowflake gun user."

"We didn't like the idea of sneak attacking with touch attack weapons and so removed that ability from splash weapons.... but not for special snowflake gun users."The problem was sneak-attacking with Splash Weapons and grenades (Which comes across as ridiculous to anyone with a modicum of sense), not Touch attacks - A rogue can still deal precision damage with rays.

"You have to pay 1/3 an item's cost in raw materials. Oh, unless you're a special snowflake gun user. Then it's 1/5."

"Getting a super expensive weapon at level 1 would be overpowered, note the starting wealth table we included with the core book. Oh, you're a gunslinger? We'll give you a gun, yeah. But to balance it, we'll give you a special rule whereby you can shoot it but no one who steals it from you can use it against you. That's totally a penalty!" That's because guns are retardedly overpriced, and this is the only way to bring their cost to managable levels. The broken thing is to keep the gunslinger from outfiting his party with guns.

2) If you're playing with early fire arms, congratulations! You're actually balanced with other weapons and time period appropriate for D&D's other equipment! If you're playing with modern or futuristic weapons.... there's literally no point using any other weapon ever. How ever shall we balance these two power extremes? All weapons follow the same rules - Roll to hit, they deal damage if successful. Guns pierce armor, but do inferior damage and have inferior range to bows and crossbows in Pathfinder - but have nice crits.

There are a lot of ways to balance guns in D&D. You can just say they're reflavored crossbows. You can have them do more damage, but have to roll a scatter die to see where they actually hit (thus, devastating in a mass combat, not so great for accurate shooting). You can make them require a feat to get (can't just be exotic; there's ways to get that w/o a feat) and be slightly better than bows and other martial weapons in return.

PF does none of these things, and makes them even more unbalanced by not just doing high damage, but also hitting touch AC and stacking w/ Deadly Aim! Instead, they "balance" it by making ammo expensive (so in a low or average treasure game you don't use guns, in a monty haul game, you abuse the F out of them, whatever) and giving guns a random chance to overheat/explode. That latter thing is the dumbest freaking form of balance there is. That's like balancing teleportation by saying if you port into a solid object, you auto die. Basically, the rule is overpowered.... then maybe at some point you die / lose the item. If the bad stuff never happens, you're just broken. If it does happen, you're now worthless or dead. Balance by russian roulette isn't balance at all. Emphasis mine, and made me crack up - 1d4 (Any early pistol) points of damage with no strength modifier is NOT high damage. Nor is 1d10 (Advanced Rifle). They have big criticals, but only on a 20.

They are only Touch attacks at point-blank range for any pistol or early firearm - after that, in addition to incurring Range Penalties, they have to break normal AC.

Yes, guns are broken - By being incredibly pathetic.

VanIsleKnight

2013-02-14, 05:40 PM

Raven777

2013-02-14, 09:02 PM

Not to mention the asinine recharge mechanics, where the only way to even get full attacks and benefit from the class' full BAB is to chain a series of feats and then paper cartridges. Bringing a Musket to recharge as a free action goes through as much feat wording abuse as some of the finiest wizard cheese.

To wit : You need to be a Musket Master for Fast Musket, which says "... she can reload any two-handed firearm as if it were a one-handed firearm..."

Then you get Rapid Reload (Musket) for free, which says "... The time required for you to reload your chosen type of weapon is reduced to a free action (for a hand or light crossbow), a move action (for heavy crossbow or one-handed firearm), or a standard action (two-handed firearm)." With the cheese smelling wording abuse of Musket Masters reloading two-handed firearms "as if they were a one-handed firearm" allowing them to apply Rapid Reload as if it was on a one-handed pistol being outright intended.

Then you use paper cartridges, which remove reloading times by one step. So it foes Fast Musket = Full-Round -> Standard, Rapid Reload = Standard -> Move, Paper Cartridge = Move -> Free. Don't ask me how a Gunslinger manages, by level 16, to recharge a muzzle loaded, black powder filled musket four times within the six seconds of a round. I guess they're just that badass.

And they need this to function, because otherwise their full BAB is utterly wasted by the very mechanics of the weapons their class is designed around.

Scow2

2013-02-14, 09:19 PM

Did you know you can do 1d8 points of damage with a double-barreled pistol, or 2d8 points of damage if you fire both barrels at the same time (not separate attacks) while taking a -4 to hit? Also, you only have to hit a creature's Touch AC to do this, so if you're a high dex character... :P That's an Early Firearm by the way. An early One-Handed firearm. Meaning you can have one in each hand. :P

Early Firearms that are Two-Handed?

2d12 isn't hard to do.

*edit, point blank range is 20 feet, which can be extended by using that grit thing they get. Which isn't really hard to replenish or come by.Yes, and I'm not impressed by that damage - Low levels can't really just take that kind of attack bonus penalty, and by the time you're high enough level to use it effectively, your damage is trailing behind everyone else's. Also, 20' (Or even 40'!) is laughably short-ranged.

A Double Hackbut is a stationary weapon, while a Double Musket has only a 10' range increment.

Snowbluff

2013-02-14, 09:28 PM

jmelesky

2013-02-14, 10:02 PM

Also, remember that you can combine the useless Vital Strike line (multiply weapon damage only, once per round) with the useless Gunslinger class (high weapon damage, often without the ability to fire multiple times in a round, and generally with fewer bonuses than a non-firearm), to get something more useful than either in isolation.

Starbuck_II

2013-02-14, 10:49 PM

Except for Melee damage isn't nearly as out of control as it can be in 3.5.

Power attack has a Ranged version, remember? Even at close range, the fact that you have touch attacks means you can pretty always hit anyway.

Get yourself an arm for reloading with Alchemist, and 5 levels of Gunslinger. Dual-Wield Pistols.

How are you reloading, action type is less important than having a free hand. You need three hands or weapon cord cheese to dual wield them.

Elderand

2013-02-14, 10:54 PM

Or if the dm is fairly lenient, take a level dip in white haired witch and have your hair (or mustache !) do it for you

Acanous

2013-02-14, 10:58 PM

The best use of Firearms is for Rogue/Gunslinger hybrids anyhow. You get the dex focus and sneak attack damage, and now hit against touch AC. Go Gnome Ninja for bewildering Koan, and Gnomish Gunsmith for the ability to fire off viles and alchemical substances. Pick up Fogcutting Lenses.

Shoot smokebombs at people. Now they can't see you, so they are flat-footed. Follow up by shooting them. You're hitting flat-footed touch AC. Shoot them with two guns, who cares about the penalty, your dex is your primary stat anyhow.
Finish up with Bewldering Koan. One of them no longer gets an action next round, so you basically win the battle.

NOW you can do damage. It costs some GP, but we knew that getting into Gunslinger, anyhow.

navar100

2013-02-14, 11:25 PM

Vital Strike is not useless. It's nice extra damage for when you're only making one attack anyway which does happen regardless of your BAB. It's not suitable for every weapon ever published any time all the time, but it doesn't have to be.

Similarly the critical hit feats. It's a feature, not a bug, that weapons of 18-20 threat range get more use out of them than crits only on a 20 weapons. It is not a requirement for a feat to be needed/useful for every build everywhere any time all the time to be a good feat. A feat doesn't need to be used every round every time all the time either.

StreamOfTheSky

2013-02-14, 11:25 PM

Most combat takes place at point blank range anyway. And if you're a ranged character and battle takes place at long range, guess what? You're still winning at life. So yeah, ranged touch at short range + the ability to deadly aim (the ranged PA feat) it is obscene compared to other martial options.

Gunslingers also get dex to damage, iirc. Which means unlike those suckers w/ bows, they can single stat it up.

And I thought reload time was one of those things that the "era" dictates how much of a pain or lack thereof it is. As for having a free hand to reload, that's pretty darn easy in PF. Synth Summoner 1 or Alchemist 2 each straight up let you have spare limbs, among other potential options.

Starbuck_II

2013-02-14, 11:29 PM

Synth Summoner 1 or Alchemist 2 each straight up let you have spare limbs, among other potential options.

Alchemist 2 I'll grant, but Summomer denies armor, requires 3 arms evolutions (Bipid and extra one or Quad with 3 arms).
Syn Summoner 1 also limits your Str/Dex/Con (to 13/14 depending on form). Dex is most important affected as you are a ranged user if using guns.

StreamOfTheSky

2013-02-14, 11:42 PM

The Quad form gives you speed 40 ft and Str/Dex of 12/16, which is not terrible dex, though also not optimal. But yeah, ironically dipping Synth is almost punitive in the long run due to locking your stats. Ironic because it's stupid to ever leave synth if you enter it in the first place, it's so good.

The armor thing doesn't much matter. You get Mage Armor on the summoner spell list and it's a cheap wand, and if you're using dex for attack and damage, you probably weren't planning on wearing much in the way of armor anyway (in the end, +5 haramaki, I guess?). And you're not a melee character but have a high HD anyway, so losing some AC is not that awful.

Squirrel_Dude

2013-02-15, 12:44 AM

It sounded better: Gunslinger crafting. Because guns are so expensive, gunslingers get some benefits to making their own equipment and the ammunition for that equipment. That's fine, the stuff is expensive, and tends to be hard to find, so they need access to it somehow. The ammunition is the catch.

gunslingers can make gunpowder and bullets at 10% of the base price
+ A keg of black powder sells at 1000 GP
+ A gunslinger can make up to 1000 GP of ammunition every day
= A gunslinger can now easily make 900 gold profit every day.

It's a trap: Titan Mauler. The class allows you to use weapons of larger than normal size, except rules in Pathfinder explicitly state that the way oversize weapons work is such:

A medium sized greatsword is a large longsword with a penalty to hit, and a large longsword is a medium sized greatsword with a penalty to hit. A medium sized character can not use a large greatsword.

As such, the Titan Mauler, who gets massive benefits to using weapons outside of her size category, can't actually take real advantage of the benefit until much later in the game when she can use enlarge person for an insanely high cost of double the amount of rage rounds expended.

Why did they make this: Merciful Healer. It's a cleric archetype that makes you give up on a domain so that you can become gimpzilla, Golarion's greatest healer. Next.

Starbuck_II

2013-02-15, 12:59 AM

It's a trap: Titan Mauler. The class allows you to use weapons of larger than normal size, except rules in Pathfinder explicitly state that the way oversize weapons work is such:

A medium sized greatsword is a large longsword with a penalty to hit, and a large longsword is a medium sized greatsword with a penalty to hit. A medium sized character can not use a large greatsword.

As such, the Titan Mauler, who gets massive benefits to using weapons outside of her size category, can't actually take real advantage of the benefit until much later in the game when she can use enlarge person for an insanely high cost of double the amount of rage rounds expended.

Only cool thing is they can one hand two handed weapons (but sadly must be appropriately sized) with -2 hit penalty.
So they make good Sword/Shield warriors.

Wield a Greatsword and shield like a Diablo Barbarian I guess is only good thing you can do.

avr

2013-02-15, 03:13 AM

It's a trap: the whole halfling jinx line. Before you spend any feats on it it's a total waste of a standard action. When you've spent a whole lot of feats on it .. you might get a small pat on the head from whoever you assisted to actually do something, but it's unlikely that they noticed.

Why did they make this: supernal feast. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/supernal-feast) Ick.

StreamOfTheSky

2013-02-15, 04:29 AM

I forgot, for Why Did They Make This?

The Monk of the Healing Hand. The entire archetype is pretty awful, but specifically the level 20 capstone ability...

True Sacrifice (Su)
At 20th level, in a final selfless act, a monk of the healing hand can draw in his entire ki, which then explodes outward in a 50-foot-radius emanation. All dead allies within the emanation are brought back to life, as if they were the subject of a true resurrection spell with a caster level equal to the monk’s level. When the monk does this, he is truly and utterly destroyed. A monk destroyed in this way can never come back to life, not even by way of a wish or miracle spell or by the power of a deity. Furthermore, the monk’s name can never be spoken or written down again. All written mentions of his name become nothing more than a blank space.

This ability replaces perfect self.

TuggyNE

2013-02-15, 04:47 AM

I forgot, for Why Did They Make This?

The Monk of the Healing Hand. The entire archetype is pretty awful, but specifically the level 20 capstone ability...

There's just something about Monk capstones, isn't there?

True Sacrifice (Su)

At least it gives you a great excuse to turn a near-TPK into a chance to reroll as something useful. </snark>

GenericMook

2013-02-15, 05:44 AM

Or if the dm is fairly lenient, take a level dip in white haired witch and have your hair (or mustache !) do it for you

That made me chuckle.

"... So that's why they call you Mustache Pete."

I forgot, for Why Did They Make This?

The Monk of the Healing Hand. The entire archetype is pretty awful, but specifically the level 20 capstone ability...

True Sacrifice (Su)
At 20th level, in a final selfless act, a monk of the healing hand can draw in his entire ki, which then explodes outward in a 50-foot-radius emanation. All dead allies within the emanation are brought back to life, as if they were the subject of a true resurrection spell with a caster level equal to the monk’s level. When the monk does this, he is truly and utterly destroyed. A monk destroyed in this way can never come back to life, not even by way of a wish or miracle spell or by the power of a deity. Furthermore, the monk’s name can never be spoken or written down again. All written mentions of his name become nothing more than a blank space.

This ability replaces perfect self.

After 20 levels, the Monk of the Healing Hand ultimately realizes how awful monks really are, and realizes what a useless archetype he picked. He decides to turn his usefulness into something useful, by resurrecting any nearby dead, and forever wiping his name from history.

Because being a Monk 20 is pretty damn shameful.

Erik von Nein

2013-02-15, 05:53 AM

"I survived 20 levels of this awful class and I'll I got was a way to kill myself."

Bhaakon

2013-02-15, 07:35 AM

It's a terrible capstone for a PC class, but it seems like a good one for an NPC to have. Same for the Merciful healer, and, for that matter, many of the racial-specific archetypes (which are often specialized to the point of uselessness outside of specific situations that only the DM can set up reliably). It seems like a lot of the archetypes and prestige classes are, unfortunately, neat and flavorful NPCs/opponents for the DM to use, but mediocre-or-worse PCs; I wish they'd done more to delineate the ones that aren't really designed for general play, because there are many.

CTrees

2013-02-15, 07:51 AM

Better yet, they could just create some archetypes for the NPC classes. This would likely just make them strictly better, but still worse than PC classes. I mean, if a Warrior gets interesting abilities at levels 5,8,13,17 & 20, no one is going to sit through that many terrible levels. And even if they were, and, oh... the geisha bard became an aristocrat archetype, giving the tea ceremony ability at second level, who cares if someone dips for it? It's *still* a bad/weak choice.

Yora

2013-02-15, 09:02 AM

Zubrowka74

2013-02-15, 09:55 AM

I think capstones are a terrible idea. They might look good on paper, but who ever plays 20th level characters? Especially in a game that ends at 20th. Sure, a few people do play that, probably with Epic rules from D&D. but I think for the vast majority of people, those ability will never come into play at all.
If a class has a good level 20 ability or not does not really make it a better or worse class overall.

I recall some "capstones" actually see play at the 18th or 19th level. The Witch, for one, gets her first "Grand Hex" at 18.

Raven777

2013-02-15, 10:21 AM

I think capstones are a terrible idea. They might look good on paper, but who ever plays 20th level characters? Especially in a game that ends at 20th. Sure, a few people do play that, probably with Epic rules from D&D. but I think for the vast majority of people, those ability will never come into play at all.
If a class has a good level 20 ability or not does not really make it a better or worse class overall.

Except for Sorcerers wearing Robes of Arcane Heritage (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/r-z/robe-of-arcane-heritage). They unlock their capstone at 16th level. Which is awesome.

OverdrivePrime

2013-02-15, 10:39 AM

Vital Strike is not useless. It's nice extra damage for when you're only making one attack anyway which does happen regardless of your BAB. It's not suitable for every weapon ever published any time all the time, but it doesn't have to be.

I have to admit that my 8th level ranger is loving Vital Strike. He uses a bastard sword and usually casts lead blades before getting into a fight. And then his mage friend casts enlarge person on him. He charges from one enemy to the next leaving nothing but bloody smears in his wake.

Scow2

2013-02-15, 10:59 AM

I'm in agreement with Capstones being useless - and for martial classes, far too little far too late.

I have to admit that my 8th level ranger is loving Vital Strike. He uses a bastard sword and usually casts lead blades before getting into a fight. And then his mage friend casts enlarge person on him. He charges from one enemy to the next leaving nothing but bloody smears in his wake.

You can't use Vital Strike on a charge, thanks to obtuse rule-lawyering on the part of Paizo.

Elderand

2013-02-15, 11:05 AM

I'm of the opinion that vitals trike is not entirely useless. Not a first rate option but not useless.

Starbuck_II

2013-02-15, 11:05 AM

Spuddles

2013-02-15, 12:13 PM

I like favored class bonuses and bloodlines quite a bit. But most of them are terrible. For any given archetype/bloodline/race there is one really obvious choice, and then anything else is a fluff decision. Like why would you ever take anything besides the Arcane bloodline? There are a couple bloodlines that boost your damage, I guess.

There are so many terrible archetypes it's just like "why did they print this." Oh I would like to play a halfling monk- psych your archetype does nothing for you.

There are a bunch of useless spells, too. Many of them seem like NPC stuff- target fails his next craft check. Wow! What a spectacular use of a 2nd level spell! And of course, spells are still obscenely good while melee has mostly been shafted. Sure they got some trivial boosts over 3.5, but for the most part, +2 to being a chump isn't very good.

A lot of feat chains are needlessly broken up and made to cost too much, actionwise, like cleave or vital strike. Rather than enhancing what you do, these feats seem geared towards low level characters that MAYBE have a BAB of +6/+1.

I recall some "capstones" actually see play at the 18th or 19th level. The Witch, for one, gets her first "Grand Hex" at 18.

Casters get their true capstones at level 17 or 18, when they hit 9th level spells.

Did you know you can do 1d8 points of damage with a double-barreled pistol, or 2d8 points of damage if you fire both barrels at the same time (not separate attacks) while taking a -4 to hit? Also, you only have to hit a creature's Touch AC to do this, so if you're a high dex character... :P That's an Early Firearm by the way. An early One-Handed firearm. Meaning you can have one in each hand. :P

Early Firearms that are Two-Handed?

2d12 isn't hard to do.

*edit, point blank range is 20 feet, which can be extended by using that grit thing they get. Which isn't really hard to replenish or come by.

2d12 damage!?!?!? Holy smokes that's like, so much damage!!
Just kidding. That's average 13 damage. I'm not very impressed. If you think a trivial damage boost is gamebreaking, you need to see what a caster can do.

StreamOfTheSky

2013-02-15, 12:19 PM

Spuddles

2013-02-15, 12:36 PM

Fey bloodline and the variant for it to get an animal companion is very good, Arcane is not the only one worth taking.

And 2d12 is still several steps up in damage from a longbow's d8. Not sure how many since dice don't normally go to d12's from size advancement, but 2d12 is nearly the same as 4d6, which is 3 steps higher in damage progression (d8->2d6->3d6->4d6) than a longbow. It's 2 steps up from a greatsword.

I don't think any of us are claiming guns/lingers are on par with casters. We're griping that it is completely unbalanced with the other martial options. Most people who play a quasi-medieval fantasy game don't really want a game with 1900's and up level of gun tech making all other weapons and armor obsolete, shockingly.

Ultimate combat is pretty upfront with how guns can change the game and tive rules for rarity, etc. Many classes have a gun archetype, or can spring for the feat that gives proficiency.

The truth, though, is that no one does that except maybe gun wizards, because guns and ammo are so expensive and reloading is extremely action costly. You need pretty heavy feat investment to get guns to work every round.

navar100

2013-02-15, 01:16 PM

I think capstones are a terrible idea. They might look good on paper, but who ever plays 20th level characters? Especially in a game that ends at 20th. Sure, a few people do play that, probably with Epic rules from D&D. but I think for the vast majority of people, those ability will never come into play at all.
If a class has a good level 20 ability or not does not really make it a better or worse class overall.

If you don't play to 20th level, great, but why deny something cool for those players who do?

Starbuck_II

2013-02-15, 02:00 PM

Ultimate combat is pretty upfront with how guns can change the game and tive rules for rarity, etc. Many classes have a gun archetype, or can spring for the feat that gives proficiency.

The truth, though, is that no one does that except maybe gun wizards, because guns and ammo are so expensive and reloading is extremely action costly. You need pretty heavy feat investment to get guns to work every round.

Well, if guns are "common place" the prices are more reasonable. The listed prices are for "rare guns".

Spuddles

2013-02-15, 02:34 PM

Well, if guns are "common place" the prices are more reasonable. The listed prices are for "rare guns".

If guns are common place, then you are playing in a setting with guns, in which case you don't get much sympathy when you QQ about showing up to a gunfight with a sword.

Otherwise, the gp cost, and more importantly, the action cost, of guns makes them more balanced vs other weapon types. Full attacking with a gun needs many feats and quite a bit of gp. Over time, it's thendifference of a+1 on your weapon and armor, or a stat boosting item. Because gunslingers are throwing their wealth down range, their comrades in arms will tend to have better kit, sooner.

OverdrivePrime

2013-02-15, 03:45 PM

You can't use Vital Strike on a charge, thanks to obtuse rule-lawyering on the part of Paizo.

He meant "walk briskly" to one enemy "to the next leaving nothing but bloody smears in his wake."

I hope at least. Hate to spoiler his fun breaking the rules with the Real Rules. :smallbiggrin:

Yes... walk briskly. >___>

Seriously, though, we've house-ruled that bit out of existence, along with a few other weird nerfs on martial feats.

Scow2

2013-02-15, 03:49 PM

Yes... walk briskly. >___>

Seriously, though, we've house-ruled that bit out of existence, along with a few other weird nerfs on martial feats.

The goofy thing is that, due to the way the Standard Attack option plays into the Full attack option, you can use Vital Strike on one of your attacks and still get your iterative attacks. Probably not the intention, but it makes the feat a bit more effective.

Arbane

2013-02-15, 04:07 PM

I recall some "capstones" actually see play at the 18th or 19th level. The Witch, for one, gets her first "Grand Hex" at 18.

On that note, some of the witch hexes definitely qualify for the "why did they make this?" list:

Child-Scent: You can smell children. Really useful if you're planning on taking Cook People later (and are EEEEEVIL), but otherwise not much help unless you have a side-job as a babysitter.

Blight and Infected Wounds: Both cause 1 Con damage a day, and the victim gets new saves every day. Unless you're trying to kill peasants, not much use.

Witch's Hut: You get Baba Yaga's chicken-legged hut! ... at level 18. It's a cool ability, but probably not worth one of the only Grand Hexes you'll ever get.

StreamOfTheSky

2013-02-15, 04:50 PM

If guns are common place, then you are playing in a setting with guns, in which case you don't get much sympathy when you QQ about showing up to a gunfight with a sword.

Thank you for illustrating the perspective of guns in fantasy proponents and why I hate them so very much.

"Guns have to be better than other weapons, cause like....that's how it is in real life, derp! Why should a sword user expect to be on par with a gun user, you stupid whiners!"

Yeah, except this is a fantasy game. People are ok with wizards rubbing bat **** between their fingers and launching a fireball or traveling to other planes of existence to go hang out with the deities themselves. But GOD FORBID a dude with a bow or sword wants to be relevant compared to a gun user! That just make-a-no-sense-a!

Starbuck_II

2013-02-15, 04:53 PM

Thank you for illustrating the perspective of guns in fantasy proponents and why I hate them so very much.

"Guns have to be better than other weapons, cause like....that's how it is in real life, derp! Why should a sword user expect to be on par with a gun user, you stupid whiners!"

Yeah, except this is a fantasy game. People are ok with wizards rubbing bat **** between their fingers and launching a fireball or traveling to other planes of existence to go hang out with the deities themselves. But GOD FORBID a dude with a bow or sword wants to be relevant compared to a gun user! That just make-a-no-sense-a!

If it wasn't expensive, I wouldn't find an issue with gunslingers personally.
You use alchemy ammo or rapid reload (or both) and you can reload fine.

Better with Musket Master if 2 handed.

Karoht

2013-02-15, 04:59 PM

/1 Combine Fast Healer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/fast-healer)...
/2 ... with Infernal Healing (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/i/infernal-healing)...
/3 ... And point out Fast Healing (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules#TOC-Fast-Healing-Ex-) counts as Natural healing...
/4 ... You now heal (1 + Con Mod/2) per round...
/5 ... Dodge the Core Rulebook being thrown at you...
/6 ... If the fact that the bit about Fast Healing benefiting Natural Healing is spell fluff gets leveled against you, reply with "anyway Fast Healing from Infernal Healing is also *healing from a spell*"...
/7 ... Dodge the gaming table being flipped at you...
Hmmm, can't we cheese this up another notch?

Isn't there a Tiefling racial you can swap out to boost this?
Nevermind, it's a Favored Class option that works with Lay on Hands. Still useful though I suppose.
•Paladin Add +1 to the amount of damage the paladin heals with lay on hands, but only when the paladin uses that ability on herself.

Spuddles

2013-02-15, 05:36 PM

Thank you for illustrating the perspective of guns in fantasy proponents and why I hate them so very much.

"Guns have to be better than other weapons, cause like....that's how it is in real life, derp! Why should a sword user expect to be on par with a gun user, you stupid whiners!"

Yeah, except this is a fantasy game. People are ok with wizards rubbing bat **** between their fingers and launching a fireball or traveling to other planes of existence to go hang out with the deities themselves. But GOD FORBID a dude with a bow or sword wants to be relevant compared to a gun user! That just make-a-no-sense-a!

Let's see, it requires more feats, more gold, more actions, and an entire class devoted to it... THEY BETTER BE PRETTY FREAKIN GOOD.

Now take any ol weapon from the core book and build a class around it. Like a fighter with a stick. I bet the numbers come out really similar. In fact, I suspect the fighter is ahead in damage out put with, like, a glaive or a dagger or something.

Snowbluff

2013-02-15, 06:54 PM

Yes, another reason to hate guns is the traditional DnD setting...

Fey bloodline and the variant for it to get an animal companion is very good, Arcane is not the only one worth taking.

I played a level 7 sorcerer. Giant Frog Animal Companion, Magical Lineage + Toppling Spell Magic Missiles, and I generally kicked way more butt than the rest of the 3-man party. Most fights came down to me completely destroying any likelihood of enemy effectiveness. While this is a case of "lol caster OP", I really take issue with how easy it is to do this in PF.

Spuddles

2013-02-15, 07:26 PM

Yes, another reason to hate guns is the traditional DnD setting...

I played a level 7 sorcerer. Giant Frog Animal Companion, Magical Lineage + Toppling Spell Magic Missiles, and I generally kicked way more butt than the rest of the 3-man party. Most fights came down to me completely destroying any likelihood of enemy effectiveness. While this is a case of "lol caster OP", I really take issue with how easy it is to do this in PF.

It's arguably quite a bit harder in PF, and the methods to do it are mostly contingent on wayang spell hunter and magical linneage, or low level action abuse via minions (animal companion, eidolon).

Squirrel_Dude

2013-02-16, 01:01 AM

Except for Sorcerers wearing Robes of Arcane Heritage (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/r-z/robe-of-arcane-heritage). They unlock their capstone at 16th level. Which is awesome.I'll add another Why did they make that: The Focused Study alternate racial trait for humans. Give up a bonus feat for skill focus at levels 1, 8, and 14.

Look, skill focus isn't everything, but I think most characters can see the benefit of giving up 1 feat of anything they want to get skill focus 3 times over the course of a character. Apparently Half Elves should always get kicked in the balls by humans.

Greenish

2013-02-16, 03:56 AM

I think capstones are a terrible idea. They might look good on paper, but who ever plays 20th level characters? Especially in a game that ends at 20th. Sure, a few people do play that, probably with Epic rules from D&D. but I think for the vast majority of people, those ability will never come into play at all.Yeah, maybe there should only be 10 levels in the game, because seriously, screw the people who play higher level games.

Also all the classes I never play and all the feats I never take should be removed from the game because they're useless.

SilverLeaf167

2013-02-16, 06:32 AM

Yeah, maybe there should only be 10 levels in the game, because seriously, screw the people who play higher level games.

Also all the classes I never play and all the feats I never take should be removed from the game because they're useless.
No need to take it so seriously... he (she?) probably just meant that very few people play high levels and capstones really are pretty useless/silly/fillerific in general, especially when you keep in mind that even fewer players actually take 20 levels of a base class instead of going into a prestige class at some point (I guess that might be a little more common in PF, though). In most games, if the party reaches 20th level at all, that's usually where the campaign ends.

This thread was quite fun and interesting to read until it devolved into an argument about Gunslingers. It's really a breather just to see someone actually share something new.

I haven't really played PF, only read the SRD quite a lot, but in general I think they repeated one of WotC's biggest mistakes in making classes/feats underpowered: overestimating the value of tiny bonuses, especially very situational ones. Weapon Focus at least applies almost all the time (how many characters do you really see wielding a bunch of different weapons at once?) and is still considered useless, but something like "+1 to trip attempts against flat-footed enemies two sizes larger than you while wielding a quarterstaff" is just hilariously bad.

Greenish

2013-02-16, 06:37 AM

No need to take it so seriously... he (she?) probably just meant that very few people play high levels and capstones really are pretty useless/silly/fillerific in general, especially when you keep in mind that even fewer players actually take 20 levels of a base class instead of going into a prestige class at some point (I guess that might be a little more common in PF, though). In most games, if the party reaches 20th level at all, that's usually where the campaign ends.None of that is any reason for not having capstones. :smallannoyed:

Bhaakon

2013-02-16, 07:01 AM

None of that is any reason for not having capstones.

No, it's not, but it does make capstones into something of a trap in most campaigns, because that awesome ability does nothing for you on levels 1-19. If we're talking about trap choices (which we are, it's right there in the original post), then losing sight of character playability at lower levels because you're chasing an awesome high level or capstone ability is a classic one.

Greenish

2013-02-16, 07:19 AM

No, it's not, but it does make capstones into something of a trap in most campaigns, because that awesome ability does nothing for you on levels 1-19. If we're talking about trap choices (which we are, it's right there in the original post), then losing sight of character playability at lower levels because you're chasing an awesome high level or capstone ability is a classic one.That's more of a problem with the other class features being poor, though. And even then, well, I have never heard of anyone taking, say, the Truenamer, despite the fact that it gains probably the coolest capstone of them all (and at will Gate at 19, for that matter).

Besides, off the top of my head, most of the classes with cool capstones (warblade, dread necromancer, beguiler, totemist, etc.) are quite decent played straight, at least in 3.5.

StreamOfTheSky

2013-02-16, 10:11 AM

My only problem with the capstones is how much focus/importance they're given. Namely, Prestige Classes uber super duper SUCK now, but on the plus side.... they have capstones at 10th PrC level, which is usually ~ character level 15-16. So you get a capstone early! And thus, we're going to make the prior 9 levels as painful as possible to balance your "early entry" onto the capstone gravy train.

Reading through dozens of awful PF PrC's I'm almost positive this was their line of thinking, because if they claim the PrC's are "balanced" at all, nothing else can explain how they would think that.

(There are some good PF prestige classes.... they're almost all caster ones, of course. Horizon Walker w/ Instant Enemy abuse is probably the only champ for the mundanes, and most DMs would probably ban that cheese on sight)

Reverent-One

2013-02-16, 10:44 AM

I'll add another Why did they make that: The Focused Study alternate racial trait for humans. Give up a bonus feat for skill focus at levels 1, 8, and 14.

Look, skill focus isn't everything, but I think most characters can see the benefit of giving up 1 feat of anything they want to get skill focus 3 times over the course of a character. Apparently Half Elves should always get kicked in the balls by humans.

While there's a potential benefit there, I think the usefulness of any feat you want at first level is still going to be worth more for many characters, especially in games where you don't know how high you're actually going to end up.

Yora

2013-02-16, 11:29 AM

If I would plan to take Skill Focus at 1st, 3rd or 5th level and play a human, I might actually take that ability. It's not plain better than free feat of any choice, but there are situations in which it is quite good.

StreamOfTheSky

2013-02-16, 02:00 PM

Considering Eldritch Heritage is an awesome feat (mainly to get a familiar, but there are other tricks, too) and requires Skill Focus, that Human ability is quite useful and a major FU to the half-elf.

Really...any sort of build where I need skill focus for something, Half-Elf would be the default race to look at first. With this...human, every time. Definitely. Only exception might be Summoner, cause of the favored class bonus half-elf gets there.

avr

2013-02-16, 08:59 PM

... in general I think they repeated one of WotC's biggest mistakes in making classes/feats underpowered: overestimating the value of tiny bonuses, especially very situational ones. Weapon Focus at least applies almost all the time (how many characters do you really see wielding a bunch of different weapons at once?) and is still considered useless, but something like "+1 to trip attempts against flat-footed enemies two sizes larger than you while wielding a quarterstaff" is just hilariously bad.
That's more or less my complaint about the halfling jinx; it starts at a standard action to give someone a -1 to saves (iff they fail an initial save to determine whether they even get the penalty) and doesn't get a lot better with added feats.

Bhaakon

2013-02-16, 09:55 PM

Jinx is definitely sub-optimal for a PC, but eminently abuseable as an untyped penalty. Get on the bad side of a village of halflings and a bad case of food poisoning might be the end of you.

Snowbluff

2013-02-16, 09:56 PM

Jinx is definitely sub-optimal for a PC, but eminently abuseable as an untyped penalty. Get on the bad side of a village of halflings and a bad case of food poisoning might be the end of you.

If that's the case, then Ray of Enfeeblement stacks as long as it comes from different sources in PF. :smallannoyed:

avr

2013-02-16, 10:03 PM

I'm thinking a village of halflings would be able to arrange for food poisoning for you if they really wanted without wasting time on jinxes.

Greenish

2013-02-16, 10:25 PM

I'm thinking a village of halflings would be able to arrange for food poisoning for you if they really wanted without wasting time on jinxes.Eberron even offers them a PrC for that.

StreamOfTheSky

2013-02-22, 02:51 AM

Why did they make this?! (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nv0k?Esoteric-Training-broken-or-just-what-we-needed)

From the OP:
Esoteric Training
Inner Sea Magic Excerpt: Due to your membership in a spellcasting guild (and Fame score of 35) you gain a +3 bonus to your caster level with one spellcasting class of your choice and a +1 bonus to your caster level with another spellcasting class (up to a maximum of your character level). These bonuses grant you additional spells known and spells per day for your modified caster level. <-- somewhat paraphrased

Like, I get that a lot of people say Mystic Theurge and Arcane Trickster and the like suck. But, that's kind of crazy excessive.... You end up with literally full progression casting (spells per day and all!) on one side and only 2 levels down on the other, as a MT. You're basically playing two caster classes gestalted together in a non-gestalt game. And it's not even a feat! Just some effect of joining a group and being famous.

I guess I'll just reiterate.... Paizo LOVES their casters....

Spuddles

2013-02-22, 04:09 AM

The worst part of that, imo, is that it is incredible power predicated on fluff. When one set of fluff has better mechanics than some other fluff, it leads to problems where every cleric you make has planning and undeath as domains.

avr

2013-02-22, 04:13 AM

As per further down that page it's supposed to just be a boost to caster level like practiced spellcaster et al., but was misworded. (' That probably is indeed an error, but I'd be interested to see how it plays out as written.')

Assume incompetence rather than conspiracy when you can.

Snowbluff

2013-02-22, 09:06 AM

Assume incompetence rather than conspiracy when you can.

No, Paizo is perfect. They can do no wrong. They can not possibly be stupid. I'll assume malice all I want. :smalltongue:

I am coming at this assuming the devs knew what they were doing on some level. It would let me treat this like a system that's coherent enough to give ratings on.

Larkas

2013-02-22, 11:20 AM

- Tumbling. Even if you pimp the hell out of your mod, you will fail at least 40% of the time, probably more. And your hp and damage was likely already worse than the monster's, so now you're giving him 50% more attacks on you to boot as you foolishly try to "skirmish."

I used to think that too. I even considered rolling Tumble against a creature's Reflex instead of CMD. I posted a thread (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pgcr?Acrobatics-denial-of-AoO-against-Reflex) back at Paizo's board about this, and people there were very helpful. Indeed, they convinced me that you don't need to fix anything regarding tumbling in PF. You just need to invest resources to do it reliably, something you didn't need in 3.5. And you know what? YMMV, but I'm okay with it.

Flurry of Blows. The errata by SKR... comparing it to TWFing but ruling it inferior, not stackable and! forcing you to keep track of all your appandages separately!

I think it might be useful to point out that that errata was taken down recently. This (http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5le61?Monkeying-Around) is the current ruling on the subject. Ipsis litteris:

Monkeying Around

Tuesday, December 4, 2012

Late last week, we posted up a few quick FAQ issues to resolve some problems involving the monk. There has been a lot of discussion on the monk on the boards, and while it has taken us a while to come up with some solutions, we have made a few simple changes to address these concerns. I wanted to take this blog post to review these changes and to announce a few more.

Flurry of Blows: We have decided to reverse a previous ruling (that came from this very blog) that stated you needed to use two weapons when using flurry of blows (or a combination of weapon attacks and unarmed strikes). You can now make all of your attacks with just one weapon, or substitute any number of these attacks with an unarmed strike. Of course, if you have a pair of weapons and want to keep using both of them, that still works as well.

Ki Pool: Monks typically have problems bypassing DR with their unarmed strikes, forcing them to rely on weapons to deal with many forms of DR. We have decided to add a new ability to the Ki Pool monk class feature. At 7th level, a monk's unarmed strikes count as cold iron and silver for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction, so long as he has at least 1 point remaining in his ki pool.

Amulet of Mighty Fists: On Friday, we posted up a FAQ that stated that the enhancement bonus from an amulet of mighty fists does allow natural attacks and unarmed strikes to bypass damage reduction if the enhancement bonus is at least +3 (as with other weapons, see page 562 of the Core Rulebook). In addition, we have decided to adjust the price of the amulet of mighty fists. The new prices are as follows: 4,000 gp (+1), 16,000 gp (+2), 36,000 gp (+3), 64,000 gp (+4), 100,000 gp (+5). Accordingly, the costs to create these amulets are also reduced to the following: 2,000 gp (+1), 8,000 gp (+2), 18,000 gp (+3), 32,000 gp (+4), 50,000 gp (+5). This makes this item priced a bit more competitively for monks and creatures that rely on natural attacks. I should note that this change will be reflected in future printings of the Core Rulebook, Ultimate Equipment, and the NPC Codex.

Well, that about wraps up our current thoughts on the monk. Thanks to all the folks on the boards that provided us with feedback on this class.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

Now, don't get me wrong, I think there are plenty of things wrong with PF. These are not.

Ravens_cry

2013-02-22, 11:54 AM

Malfunction (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/m/malfunction). It literally doesn't work, being a fortitude save that doesn't affect objects, yet is meant to affect Contructs.
Someone did not think this through. Moreover, it's an SR: Yes spell, so even if it wasn't a Fort save, it wouldn't do anything to Golems.

Spuddles

2013-02-22, 12:24 PM

Zubrowka74

2013-02-22, 12:36 PM

Paizo LOVES their casters....

But tragically, coastal Wizards do not requite it. Tough love, indeed!

Ravens_cry

2013-02-22, 12:40 PM

Does specific still trump general?, but yeah, useless vs anything with magic immunity.
It never says that it affects constructs despite their immunities, so, as far as I can tell, there is no specific to trump.

Last Laugh

2013-02-22, 12:56 PM

/1 Combine Fast Healer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/fast-healer)...

/2 ... with Infernal Healing (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/i/infernal-healing)...

/3 ... And point out Fast Healing (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules#TOC-Fast-Healing-Ex-) counts as Natural healing...

/4 ... You now heal (1 + Con Mod/2) per round...

/5 ... Dodge the Core Rulebook being thrown at you...

/6 ... If the fact that the bit about Fast Healing benefiting Natural Healing is spell fluff gets leveled against you, reply with "anyway Fast Healing from Infernal Healing is also *healing from a spell*"...

/7 ... Dodge the gaming table being flipped at you...
One problem that I can see is that Fast Healer only says it provides a bonus to natural healing in the description for the feat. The feat boosts healing from magic, and from resting.
I think the feat would have to specify fast healing to allow it RAI (as otherwise it's kind of a silly interpretation, the powerlevel of the feat changes by bounds if it allows fast heal, going from just awful to pretty good) but it would be an acceptable houserule. After a certain point fasthealing just means you start every fight at full with a moderate amount of it. Early game barbarian with fasthealing 4 would be SWEET!