Spotting for a Sniper at 6000 feet

[Dirac Lotus]

Hey guys, my recent forays into character creation have resulted in a rogue capable of dishing out sneak attacks at around 6000 ft (about 1.8 km, provided I'm stacking these things right).

Range penalties aren't a problem thanks to Horizon Shot from the Cratop Archer PrC. My main problem is that the spot rules make this completely unfeasible, given by RAW I haven't a hope in hell of hitting anything past 800 odd feet.

So I implore you playground, help me find a method of negating or massively decreasing the spot penalties for the shootiness. I'm thinking of something along the lines of a spotter, but I don't know how that would work.

Thanks guys and gals! :smallbiggrin:

[Yora]

You could have a spellcaster with arcane eye or clearvoyance, but he also could only point his finger at the horizon to tell you where to look. That still doesn't really help seeing the target.

[hydraa]

Is the target attempting to hide? (PHB makes it more seem primarily for this and secondary for encounter, Rules comp lends more for normal vision as a primary use for spot)
Spy glass magnifies objects to twice their size (1/2 range the range modifier or perhaps 1/8 the range modifier) for -300 or -75 to the spot check

[Dirac Lotus]

They're unlikely to be hiding, they'll have no idea what's about to happen :smallamused:

Hrmm, so a spyglass could get it down to -75, which is alot more doable than -600. Currently got a spot check of +45, so that's just 30 more to go somehow..

[Flickerdart]

One of the vestiges (Focalor? Malphas?) gives you an eagle and the ability to see through its eyes. Send that sucker out and about to notice things for you.

[hydraa]

A cheesy way to help.

Get several +x to spot items that are different bonus
(untyped, circumstance, sacred, profane, insight, morale, luck, enhancement)

As well as bonuses to Wisdom

There is also traits (farsighted, hard of hearing) that can be used that get you each a +1

As to my prior suggestion to on the spyglass. A +3 competence item in 3.5 would run 900 gp whereas the spyglass is 1000 gp. (in 3.0 you could get +6 bonus for 900 gp). So YMMV.

Have the target hold a Bulls eye lantern at night with farflame oil. It is a DC 20 to spot the light source at 20 times it illumination radius (120*2*20) gives you a DC 20 at 4800 ft

[Hand_of_Vecna]

One of the vestiges (Focalor?) gives you an eagle and the ability to see through its eyes. Send that sucker out and about to notice things for you.

It's Malphas 2nd level vestige so 1 binder level and a feat or 2 feats. He also grants invisibilty, poison use and a a d6 of sudden strike so very worthwhile on an archer.

He's also well known for a trick of sending the bird into a building or dungeon and assassinating the entire place with brilliant arrows.

[Dirac Lotus]

Have the target hold a Bulls eye lantern at night with farflame oil. It is a DC 20 to spot the light source at 20 times it illumination radius (120*2*20) gives you a DC 20 at 4800 ft

Hmm, looks like I need an accomplice of some form. That or line the path they walk with torches. :smallbiggrin:


It's Malphas 2nd level vestige so 1 binder level and a feat or 2 feats. He also grants invisibilty, poison use and a a d6 of sudden strike so very worthwhile on an archer.
Ah, brilliant! Just gotta find a spot to work in that level and feat now. Thanks guys!




He's also well known for a trick of sending the bird into a building or dungeon and assassinating the entire place with brilliant arrows.
I am so using this ^^

[nedz]

Spyglass
Objects viewed through a spyglass are magnified to twice their size.

Spot is opposed by Hide.
The bonus for being one size larger is -4, which equates to a +4 on the Spot.
Which is the same as being 40' closer.

Spyglasses, by RAW, are very expensive and not very good.

[TroubleBrewing]

I'd be interested in seeing this build. SA generally doesn't function outside of 30ft, so getting that up by 200x is surprising, to say the least.

[Flickerdart]

I'd be interested in seeing this build. SA generally doesn't function outside of 30ft, so getting that up by 200x is surprising, to say the least.
There's a spell that removes the range penalty. This is 3.5; magic fixes everything.

[Scow2]

... now I'm interested in seeing this guy casting similar spells that allow his arrows to ignore cover and concealment, and perhaps combined with Scrying spells leading to single-target intercontinental cruise arrows... unless you can bolt a fireball to the arrow.

[mattie_p]

Living arrow psionic power + arcane archer has you covered.

[Azoth]

Well a 2 level arcane archer dip could let him drop the fireball in there. That requires playing an elf and being an arcane caster as well.

[JaronK]

Malphas and Chain of Eyes are the usual ways to do this.

JaronK

[Immabozo]

I am sure you could house rule make a feat for working with a spotter, that you both would have to take, and then make your spotter a Druid. Have him wildshape into something with high spot, with the base character having a high spot. Skills are extraordinary abilities and a Master of Many Forms gets that at level 7.

So a level 12 character (5 druid/7 MoMF) has 15 ranks in spot, with a 16 wisdom and a 2 bonus from elf = 20, wild shapes into, lets say, (with the necklace that I forget the name that give +4 to effective HD for shifting) into a fire giant, for +15, for a total of +35 spot plus item and further feat potimization

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

A Third Eye: Sense (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/universalItems.htm#sense) will get you all the spotting you'll ever need.

[Kelb_Panthera]

A cheesy way to help.

Get several +x to spot items that are different bonus
(untyped, circumstance, sacred, profane, insight, morale, luck, enhancement)

As well as bonuses to Wisdom

There is also traits (farsighted, hard of hearing) that can be used that get you each a +1

As to my prior suggestion to on the spyglass. A +3 competence item in 3.5 would run 900 gp whereas the spyglass is 1000 gp. (in 3.0 you could get +6 bonus for 900 gp). So YMMV.

Have the target hold a Bulls eye lantern at night with farflame oil. It is a DC 20 to spot the light source at 20 times it illumination radius (120*2*20) gives you a DC 20 at 4800 ft

Where do you get the DC 20 for 20 times the illumination radius?

If that works, painting the target with fairy fire seems like it would be useful. That's only 200ft. Nevermind.

[hamishspence]

Hey guys, my recent forays into character creation have resulted in a rogue capable of dishing out sneak attacks at around 6000 ft (about 1.8 km, provided I'm stacking these things right).

How are you getting infinite range Sneak Attack- doesn't it normally require target to be within 30 ft (60 if you have a crossbow and the Crossbow Sniper feat)?

[Dirac Lotus]

A Third Eye: Sense (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/universalItems.htm#sense) will get you all the spotting you'll ever need.

That's brilliant! Combine that with an eagle and an accomplice with a lantern, at least one of those methods should do the trick.


How are you getting infinite range Sneak Attack- doesn't it normally require target to be within 30 ft (60 if you have a crossbow and the Crossbow Sniper feat)?
The level 1 assassin spell Sniper's Shot (from SC) let's you make a sneak attack at any distance, combine this with horizon shot from cragtop archer and you eliminate any penalties.


... now I'm interested in seeing this guy casting similar spells that allow his arrows to ignore cover and concealment, and perhaps combined with Scrying spells leading to single-target intercontinental cruise arrows... unless you can bolt a fireball to the arrow.
I love this idea, but the only way I can see to get spells on the arrows is by spending about 7 levels to get into arcane archer (unless of course, the assassin spells count?) Anyone know of a way to get spell storing on ranged weapons?

The build goes something like this (some of it depends on how exactly range increment bonuses work and what the DM says).
Rogue 1 > Get skill points, Point Blank Shot and Far shot
Ranger 1 > Pick up survival skill
Fighter 2 > Get Weapon Focus (Crossbow), Crossbow Sniper (PHBII) and Improved Initiative
Rogue +1 > Evasion
Assassin 1 > Sneak Attack, Death Attack, Spells (importantly Sniper's Shot) and get the feat Mountain Warrior
Rogue +1 > Sneak Attack
Nightsong Enforcer 1 > Sneak Attack
Cragtop Archer 4 > Gets you horizon shot (no range penalites if 40' free above you), Farsight (Halves Range Penalties) and Arcing Shot (You can now fire up to 15 range increments). Featwise grab Precise Shot and Craven
Fighter +2 > Get Weapon Specialisation, (weapon master prereq)
Swordsage 1 > Assassin's Stance, get the feat Ranged Weapon Mastery (+20' to range increment with crossbows)
Binder 1 > Get Eagle
Assassin +4 > More Sneak attack and spells and Improved Binding

I haven't checked it thoroughly yet, but however you look at it you're still shooting at ridiculous ranges.

Give your crossbow distance, seeking, splitting shot and deadly precision to top it off. Truedeath and Demolition crystals will let you use your Sneak Attack on Undead and Golems respectively.

Edit: It's also pretty good at taking out wizards (not the overly paranoid astral projectiony ones though), since they can't celerity to go first since you've already shot them a few times :smallcool:

[Vaz]

On a clear moonless night, you can spot with the naked eye a single spark of flame required to light a match 50miles away.

[hamishspence]

Dragon 349 (November 2006) has more- flight arrows (+25 ft to your range increment)

It also has various alchemical arrows (and Swiftwing arrows that get only -1 rather than -2 to hit per range increment- but you have no range penalties so don't need those).

If your DM allows the occasional diversion into D20 Modern material, a Scope multiplies the range increment by 1.5.

[Dirac Lotus]

I'm iffy about including dragon material (since I don't have access to any of it), but an extra 375 feet can't be sniffed at. How much are they each?

[Actana]

If you know the enemy is there via some sort of scrying, you could just close your eyes and fire blind. Sure, you'd get the 50% miss chance, but you wouldn't have to worry about seeing them. You know they're there, and nothing says a blinded character can't shoot outside their range.

Also, the fluff would be totally awesome.

"Archer McArrows, the goblin is on the hill five miles away, kill him!"
Archer McArrows closes his eyes and tracks the target, knowing where to hit him, and hoping he rolls good on his miss chance.
"What are you doing, McArrows?" everyone shouts.
"... I'm bypassing the rules for spot checks trusting my instincts and the word of the wind." McArrows says as he releases his arrow blind, hitting the goblin directly in the heart.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure it wouldn't work.

[hamishspence]

I'm iffy about including dragon material (since I don't have access to any of it), but an extra 375 feet can't be sniffed at. How much are they each?

I'll look when I can- but they are masterwork, so not horribly expensive.

Interestingly- real life crossbows have shot over 6000 ft:
http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/flight.html

(scroll to the bottom)

though not accurately.

[Fouredged Sword]

Assassin spells are arcane and thus count for arcane archer. You qualify after a single level of assassin if you meet the rest of the prereqs.

[hydraa]

Where do you get the DC 20 for 20 times the illumination radius?


Rules compendium pg 79 -> distant light

[JaronK]

I'm iffy about including dragon material (since I don't have access to any of it), but an extra 375 feet can't be sniffed at. How much are they each?

20gp will net you 50 such arrows.

JaronK

[StreamOfTheSky]

Unless the target is hiding, the spot/hide DC rules do not apply and you're only limited by prevailing environmental visibility. And maybe some flat DC to pick out hte target better than some hazy blob. You do not need a DC 600 spot check to see someone standing 6000 ft away.

If he is hiding, then you will need to break out the magic and other tricks.

[nedz]

Unless the target is hiding, the spot/hide DC rules do not apply and you're only limited by prevailing environmental visibility. And maybe some flat DC to pick out hte target better than some hazy blob. You do not need a DC 600 spot check to see someone standing 6000 ft away.

If he is hiding, then you will need to break out the magic and other tricks.

But why wouldn't they be hiding ? Assuming there is some cover anyone can hide, take the -5 for moving at full speed, and counter long range observers. This costs nothing.

[Fouredged Sword]

To hide requires cover or concealment. Both of those things are not something you want to be dealing with if you are trying to get from point A to point B with minimal fuss.

Sure, if you are expecting trouble you stick to the brush on the side of the road and sneak along, but this is a hassle most would prefer to avoid.

[StreamOfTheSky]

But why wouldn't they be hiding ? Assuming there is some cover anyone can hide, take the -5 for moving at full speed, and counter long range observers. This costs nothing.

Because they're not expecting to be attacked?

Because you still need cover to hide behind, which you won't always have? (and waiting for the right moment to shoot is the sniper's THING)

Because over the course of 8 hours, that -5 ft speed (you can move less than full speed and take only a -5, not complete full speed) adds up and makes travel take longer?


But if you are so inclined to sneak around at all times, yeah, you're basically immune to long range spot checks.

Since this matches with reality, I'm not sure what the problem is. You still have to win checks w/o huge range bonuses to get anywhere near someone. But sneaking up to a fair distance away from them is a reasonable thing to expect to be able to do reliably.

[Dirac Lotus]

Because they're not expecting to be attacked?

Because you still need cover to hide behind, which you won't always have? (and waiting for the right moment to shoot is the sniper's THING)

Because over the course of 8 hours, that -5 ft speed (you can move less than full speed and take only a -5, not complete full speed) adds up and makes travel take longer?
^^ This, so very much :smallbiggrin:

[Morph Bark]

Be sure to check with your DM whether he'll rule spotting something indirectly (such as through scrying) to work though. Considering you're seeing something from a different angle and/or distance than where you're firing from, he may rule for it not to work. Personally, I'd agree with that, but maybe have you instead get a 50% miss chance rather than it outright not working.

[rweird]

Glass of the Distance (sandstorm) lets you see 10 miles. I think that'd work.