[3.5] Being a barghest...

[Menzath]

So let's say you use shapechange or some other ability to change form, and gain the special attacks of a barghest. This should include it's "Feed" ability.
Can you really gain HD and said bonuses like that and have them be permanent?
Would it count as leveling? Seems like this requires some house ruling.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

I'm pretty sure the RAW answer is "Yes, it works".

Of course it's a situation that screams "Houserules and/or Gentleman's Agreement".

[almightycoma]

to me it doesn't seeming like leveling at least in the PC class level sense.it looks like you would get a racial HD of outsider, if you eat enough people before the spell or whatever effect you used runs out. so yea i think you'd level but i don't have any clue what effect an outsider level would have on your existing type.

[SowZ]

to me it doesn't seeming like leveling at least in the PC class level sense.it looks like you would get a racial HD of outsider, if you eat enough people before the spell or whatever effect you used runs out. so yea i think you'd level but i don't have any clue what effect an outsider level would have on your existing type.

Well, your ecl would be higher so it would be harder to level normally.

[Flickerdart]

So let's say you use shapechange or some other ability to change form, and gain the special attacks of a barghest. This should include it's "Feed" ability.
Can you really gain HD and said bonuses like that and have them be permanent?
Would it count as leveling? Seems like this requires some house ruling.
You would never gain levels from using Feed. You only gain Outsider HD, which is pretty good as far as HD goes but is far worse than gaining levels.

[Averis Vol]

but for free what does it matter? :smallbiggrin:

[SowZ]

but for free what does it matter? :smallbiggrin:

Your ECL would still rise, meaning your xp needed to level up would raise accordingly. Assuming you gain more than one had per level up, you will basically never level up any other way again. You could get a really high hd count, though.

[Averis Vol]

then wait til you have ninth level spells and do it, that way you don't have to worry about your casting and you can start stacking up on epic feats. Not like anyone besides a caster could do this anyways. Any encounter your level should be trivial, and you can just keep feeding on....well, whatever.

[Menzath]

The problem is by RAW you advance in HD (i.e. as a monster) not gain a level, as per an NPC.
So if you gain temp HD from some other means would that effectivly "raise" your level as well and make you gain less xp even though it is not your actual level?
The wording is not consistent, which is why I still say it should be house ruled.

[SowZ]

The problem is by RAW you advance in HD (i.e. as a monster) not gain a level, as per an NPC.
So if you gain temp HD from some other means would that effectivly "raise" your level as well and make you gain less xp even though it is not your actual level?
The wording is not consistent, which is why I still say it should be house ruled.

RAW does address pcs having monster hit dice, though. There are rules for it, and the rules state that is raises your ECL and so raises the so needed to level up.

[Rubik]

Funny thing. If you're over 9 HD and turn into a regular barghest, you can continue gaining levels indefinitely, so long as you eat appropriately powerful humanoids (or reasonable facsimiles thereof), since you never reach 9 HD. If you're under 9 HD, you turn into a greater barghest, which is limited to going up to 18 HD.

[Bronk]

If all that is true, and you could do that as many times as you wanted... could you redo your new levels using psychic reformation?

[Rubik]

If all that is true, and you could do that as many times as you wanted... could you redo your new levels using psychic reformation?Doubtful, since most DMs that I've seen disallow it (although it IS one of the choices you make as you level up, which qualifies for the text of PsiRef), but you CAN undergo a character rebuild as per the PHBII.

A similar option is to grab the Fusion and Astral Seed powers. Fusion with a creature with a lot more HD than you (try hiring someone for Gate, though if you have access to Spell-to-Power or UMD, you could do this yourself), then manifest Astral Seed and kill yourself. When you come back you're (improved) gestalted with that creature, since you permanently retain everything you were (physically) when you manifested it. Then rebuild or use a thought bottle and negative levels to change your HD into class levels.

[Flickerdart]

If all that is true, and you could do that as many times as you wanted... could you redo your new levels using psychic reformation?
Nope, PsyRef doesn't redo levels.


Doubtful, since most DMs that I've seen disallow it (although it IS one of the choices you make as you level up, which qualifies for the text of PsiRef), but you CAN undergo a character rebuild as per the PHBII.

Nope, you don't actually level up when using Feed - you just gain new Hit Dice. Even your XP total remains as before.

[Rubik]

Nope, PsyRef doesn't redo levels.You can according to RAW, since the level you take is one of the choices you make upon level-up. However, it IS a rather powerful option, one that most DMs (in my experience) restrict.


Nope, you don't actually level up when using Feed - you just gain new Hit Dice. Even your XP total remains as before.And yet HD are considered levels, RAW.

[Flickerdart]

Not according to RAW, since the level you take is one of the choices you make upon level-up. However, it IS a rather powerful option, one that most DMs (in my experience) restrict.
"When this power is manifested, the subject can choose to spend its most recently gained skill points differently (picking new skills and abandoning old ones if it chooses) and to choose a different feat from the one it selected when advancing from its previous level to its current level.

The subject can also choose to forget powers it acquired when advancing to its current level, replacing them with new ones. "

You get skills, feats, and powers. That's it.



And yet HD are considered levels, RAW.
No, levels just also bestow HD. Unless you have some very persuasive rules citations tucked away somewhere.

[Rubik]

"When this power is manifested, the subject can choose to spend its most recently gained skill points differently (picking new skills and abandoning old ones if it chooses) and to choose a different feat from the one it selected when advancing from its previous level to its current level.

The subject can also choose to forget powers it acquired when advancing to its current level, replacing them with new ones. "

You get skills, feats, and powers. That's it.Hmm. You're right. The way I remembered it it said that you could make changes to the decisions you made upon level-up, but I suppose that's not the case (unless "decisions of these sorts" counts).

I concede. The rebuilding and negative level trick work, though.


No, levels just also bestow HD. Unless you have some very persuasive rules citations tucked away somewhere.From here: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monstersAsRaces.htm)
Experience for Monsters

A monster with Hit Dice of 1 or less, no level adjustment, and class levels uses the same tables as standard PC races when determining experience needed.

A monster with Hit Dice of 1 or less, a level adjustment, and class levels adds its class levels, and level adjustment together when determining experience needed (class level + level adjustment).

A monster with more than one Hit Die, a level adjustment, and class levels adds its Hit Dice, class levels, and level adjustment together when determining experience needed (HD + level adjustment + class level).

[Flickerdart]

From here: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monstersAsRaces.htm)
That's just talking about XP values necessary to level up, which is something I addressed already (you're increasing your XP-to-next-level point, but not your actual XP). It does not equate HD with levels at all, and in fact mentions them separately.

[Bronk]

I think that for this to work, you would need the 'assume supernatural ability' feat first, a lenient DM, and a lot of really small but powerful critters to eat... Maybe advanced pixies? You wouldn't want to get too full after all!

[Menzath]

huh one issue I have found with the HD gain being counted as levels, you get BAB and base saves and such based off of the creature type (in this case outsider). Well monsters don't even hit epic level adjustments to these bonus'. say if you managed to gain HD as per a dragon or magical beast instead, these HD would give you a non-epic BAB equal to HD gained plus that of class levels. So even though maybe you would get A ECL change, that would only effect experience gain and nothing else since these aren't actually considered "levels".

[Last Laugh]

huh one issue I have found with the HD gain being counted as levels, you get BAB and base saves and such based off of the creature type (in this case outsider). Well monsters don't even hit epic level adjustments to these bonus'. say if you managed to gain HD as per a dragon or magical beast instead, these HD would give you a non-epic BAB equal to HD gained plus that of class levels. So even though maybe you would get A ECL change, that would only effect experience gain and nothing else since these aren't actually considered "levels".

You could get some pretty zany caster levels through practiced caster. Could be a useful trick if you used an advanced progression class, got ninths early on, and just filled up on outsider HD (do you still ability points? Feats?) crazy saves, crazy skills, great BAB/HD, if you gain feats you can put 3/4 of them into practiced caster and find some uncapped spells.

It could also be used to exceed the recommended power level for a campaign before it ended, but if the campaign continued it would bite you in the butt.

[Menzath]

Lol okay so get leadership, give yourself negative levels, and then greater restoration for getting crazy HD.
Oh and also free XP for crafting or what have you.

All kinds of cheese.

[Pandoras Folly]

Only advances by consumingcorpses of creatures whose HD are of equal or greater value than its current total. Probably already mentioned. But eventually you have to start munching on some big nasty things... 3 tarrasques. So congrats yiu found a disgusting way to get rid of a tarrasque without wish

[Menzath]

lol doesn't work on magical beasts, has to be humanoids.
Which is why you give yourself negative levels to get down to 1 HD, use your crafted items to shapechange the next day, munch on 1-5HD minions, greater rest. and viola.
gain somewhere around 5HD at least every day or two.
Have followers be a "cult" to you, and segregrate your minions under the pretense of self sacrifice so that you aren't looked at as cruel.

even if you only gain 4HD a day by the time the month is done you'll have gained a good 100HD of D8's.
33 more feats, 25 free stat points. 100 str and con. 100 BAB, and a butt ton of saves.

You just better make darn sure your base of operations is warded to wazoo.
The risk of you face by getting down to 1HD is.... well risky.

Edit: my spelling R gud.

[Flickerdart]

Lol okay so get leadership, give yourself negative levels, and then greater restoration for getting crazy HD.
Oh and also free XP for crafting or what have you.

All kinds of cheese.
Nope - you get HD, but your XP total is not modified. As they are not "experience levels", they are not restored.

[Menzath]

Ah right you are. so you still take the hit for making the items needed for this to become possible. Either way you could get to an insane ECL/HD with this.
Of course no sane DM would let you.
Just another thing to house rule to keep a deluded view of balance.

[Flickerdart]

If all you want is HD, feats, and ability scores, the Awaken Loop can be done earlier and more easily.

[Menzath]

huh, awaken trick eh?
Just looked @ the spell. Seems all you have to do is have a really high will save and just be able to gain the animal type repatedly. That or turn yourself into a tree. Tree seems pref'd.
I like that it doesn't say that the animal or tree has be or not be sentient already.
And is easly cast upon oneself. goofy.
To bad the casting time is crazy long.

[Menzath]

Re-read the waaken spell a few times. def animal pref'd.

Oh and pg. 290 of the monster manual. Monsters and Class levels section.
or in this case NPC's with monster levels.
You are considered to have the XP. So yeah it is an XP trick too. Same with Awaken. For the Awaken trick seems a little more difficult for 1 person to do without help, although I have to check through a few more books for spells that might give you the animal type, so far I haven't found any low level ones for druids.

[Flickerdart]

Oh and pg. 290 of the monster manual. Monsters and Class levels section.
or in this case NPC's with monster levels.
You are considered to have the XP. So yeah it is an XP trick too. Same with Awaken. For the Awaken trick seems a little more difficult for 1 person to do without help, although I have to check through a few more books for spells that might give you the animal type, so far I haven't found any low level ones for druids.
Yes, but the second you get rid of those hit dice, the XP goes away as well, because having the XP is contingent on having the HD.

And by a straight reading, you can never gain a level again, because you're always considered to have the minimum XP.