A DFA Warlock

[Annos]

I'm Planing on making a DFA Warlock Hybrid and want to know if their are any good ways to do this, or if I need to find a different class. I plan on the Charecter being human, and him flying around alot breathing fire and throwing eldritch spears on his ill fated foes.

[Cog]

Warlock and DFA don't really fit well together; there isn't a theurge class to mix them, so you'd be throwing around about half the damage you'd like to at any given level, or even less. Your best bet might be to go just Warlock (and any Warlock PrCs to taste) with Dragonborn as your race, selecting the aspect that gives you a breath weapon; alternatively, you could do a Warlock/caster theurge, using the Draconic Breath feat to convert spell slots into breath weapons. The latter approach has the advantage of making your breath DC based on Cha, to match your Invocations.

[Malroth]

however I'd imagine DFI from a 4 level bard dip could help a blaster lock out a lot. (+8d8 elemental damage to every attack if you're good aligned and are willing to spend 3 feats)

[Cog]

however I'd imagine DFI from a 4 level bard dip could help a blaster lock out a lot.
Unfortunately, imagination alone isn't enough. Dragonfire Inspiration only adds to weapon damage rolls; Eldritch Blast doesn't qualify.

The typical route for buffing Warlock damage is Hellfire Warlock, the meta-SLA feats, and some pieces from the Magic Item Compendium.

[Tulya]

Unless your party is really low-op, a gestalt Dragonfire Adept // Warlock would be fairly balanced. The strengths of both classes mostly overlap, so you end up with some extra versatility rather than stacking numerical bonuses - something both classes are direly in need of.

[Gotterdammerung]

Warlock and DFA don't really fit well together; there isn't a theurge class to mix them, so you'd be throwing around about half the damage you'd like to at any given level, or even less. Your best bet might be to go just Warlock (and any Warlock PrCs to taste) with Dragonborn as your race, selecting the aspect that gives you a breath weapon; alternatively, you could do a Warlock/caster theurge, using the Draconic Breath feat to convert spell slots into breath weapons. The latter approach has the advantage of making your breath DC based on Cha, to match your Invocations.

There is a theurge class that will mix them. It is a little bit cheesy because the class was obviously not meant to theurge that way. But it works fine by raw.

The class in question is eldritch theurge. You have to use early entry tricks + 1 lvl of an arcane casting class to make the requirements (be able to cast 2nd lvl spells). But once you are in it you could choose to raise your DFA lvls with the (+1 arcane spellcasting class) and raise warlock with the (+1 invocation class). As a broke side note a straight warlock with 1 arcane dip and early entry can use this prestige class to double stack his warlock lvl. Talk about a poorly designed class haha. Because warlock can specifically benefit from the (+1 arcane spellcasting class) AND the (+1 invocation class) each lvl will raise your warlock casting by 2. Bet you didn't see that in the warlock handbook.

Also worth noting, Bloodlines from unearthed arcana will raise the blast and the breath from warlock and DFA simultaneously for the bloodline lvls. It will also raise caster lvl for both classes. But it will not allow you to learn higher level invocations.

An example build using these methods

Wizard 1/ Bloodline 1/ warlock 1/ bloodline 1/DFA 1/ Eldritch Theurge 6/ bloodline 1/ Eldritch Theurge 4/ Legacy champion 4 (raising the class features of Eldritch Theurge by 3)

Using precocious apprentice as your first lvl feat to make the 2nd lvl casting requirements of Eldritch Theurge
The 1 warlock lvl + the 2 bloodline levels give us the 2d6 eldritch blast requirement
The 1 warlock gives us the least invocation requirement.
All thats left is to put the skills in the right spot for the last requirement.

By the end you cast your invocations for both warlock and DFA at 14th lvl with a 17 caster level. (meaning you are 14th lvl for determining how many invocations and what strength but 17th CL for determining the power of said invocations)
And you have the breath dmg and eldritch blast of a 17th lvl warlock and DFA respectively.

All in all, not a bad theurge for warlock and DFA.

If you cut out the DFA you can do the same build without the bloodline lvls for strait warlock.

1 wizard/4 warlock/10 Eldritch Theurge(raising warlock with both sides of the class features)/5 legacy champion (raising eldritch theurge class features by 4)

You end up with a warlock who is considered lvl 32 for eldritch blast and invocations.

[Invader]

There is a theurge class that will mix them. It is a little bit cheesy because the class was obviously not meant to theurge that way. But it works fine by raw.

The class in question is eldritch theurge. You have to use early entry tricks + 1 lvl of an arcane casting class to make the requirements (be able to cast 2nd lvl spells). But once you are in it you could choose to raise your DFA lvls with the (+1 arcane spellcasting class) and raise warlock with the (+1 invocation class). As a broke side note a straight warlock with 1 arcane dip and early entry can use this prestige class to double stack his warlock lvl. Talk about a poorly designed class haha. Because warlock can specifically benefit from the (+1 arcane spellcasting class) AND the (+1 invocation class) each lvl will raise your warlock casting by 2. Bet you didn't see that in the warlock handbook.

Also worth noting, Bloodlines from unearthed arcana will raise the blast and the breath from warlock and DFA simultaneously for the bloodline lvls. It will also raise caster lvl for both classes. But it will not allow you to learn higher level invocations.

An example build using these methods

Wizard 1/ Bloodline 1/ warlock 1/ bloodline 1/DFA 1/ Eldritch Theurge 6/ bloodline 1/ Eldritch Theurge 4/ Legacy champion 4 (raising the class features of Eldritch Theurge by 3)

Using precocious apprentice as your first lvl feat to make the 2nd lvl casting requirements of Eldritch Theurge
The 1 warlock lvl + the 2 bloodline levels give us the 2d6 eldritch blast requirement
The 1 warlock gives us the least invocation requirement.
All thats left is to put the skills in the right spot for the last requirement.

By the end you cast your invocations for both warlock and DFA at 14th lvl with a 17 caster level. (meaning you are 14th lvl for determining how many invocations and what strength but 17th CL for determining the power of said invocations)
And you have the breath dmg and eldritch blast of a 17th lvl warlock and DFA respectively.

All in all, not a bad theurge for warlock and DFA.

If you cut out the DFA you can do the same build without the bloodline lvls for strait warlock.

1 wizard/4 warlock/10 Eldritch Theurge(raising warlock with both sides of the class features)/5 legacy champion (raising eldritch theurge class features by 4)

You end up with a warlock who is considered lvl 32 for eldritch blast and invocations.

DFA isn't an arcane caster though is it. Zi thought there was a clear distinction that said invocations don't count as arcane casting?

[Gotterdammerung]

DFA isn't an arcane caster though is it. Zi thought there was a clear distinction that said invocations don't count as arcane casting?
Both DFA and Warlock have a section talking about how they benefit from prestige classes that give "+1 existing arcane spellcasting class".

For DFA its in a Sidebar near the class.

For warlock its in the beginning of the prestige class section of the complete arcane.

[Snowbluff]

Both DFA and Warlock have a section talking about how they benefit from prestige classes that give "+1 existing arcane spellcasting class".

For DFA its in a Sidebar near the class.

For warlock its in the beginning of the prestige class section of the complete arcane.

Hi, zombified handbook curator here.

That doesn't work.


Spellcasting: At each level, you gain new spells per day and an increase in caster level (and spells known, if applicable) as if you had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class (but not an invocation-using class).

[Gotterdammerung]

Hi, zombified handbook curator here.

That doesn't work.

Yes it does. Read pg 18 of the complete arcane. Page 24 of Dragon Magic has a similar sidebar that pertains to DFA's. Both of these allow you to gain special benefit from the "+1 existing arcane spellcasting class" and the "+1 level of existing spellcasting class" level advancement benefits.

You are quoting the class feature. I am directing you to the section that makes the text in the class feature irrelevant. That class feature works differently for warlocks and DFA's. But it does provide them benefit. See pg 18 of the complete arcane and page 24 of Dragon Magic for an explanation of the details.

[Snowbluff]

Except the specific rule from the class feature trumps the general rule you are quoting.

[Gotterdammerung]

Except the specific rule from the class feature trumps the general rule you are quoting.

Ah cool, I missed the "(but not an invocation-using class)" part. I'm kind of glad that one doesn't work. Good catch.

[Snowbluff]

Ah cool, I missed the "(but not an invocation-using class)" part. I'm kind of glad that one doesn't work. Good catch.

Thank you, but I wished it worked. :smallfrown:

I kind of like the idea of playing a DFA1/Warlock4/ET. You would have options! If qualification is an issue, we have ways of getting spells!

[Nettlekid]

Off-topic but related to dual stacking +1 CL stuff, what would happen if you used one of many variants/feats to allow either a Wizard to cast some spell spontaneously or a Sorcerer to prepare their spells in advance, then progressed in the Ultimate Magus class? Could you apply all the +1 CL things to the same class, and be incredibly strong?

[Snowbluff]

Off-topic but related to dual stacking +1 CL stuff, what would happen if you used one of many variants/feats to allow either a Wizard to cast some spell spontaneously or a Sorcerer to prepare their spells in advance, then progressed in the Ultimate Magus class? Could you apply all the +1 CL things to the same class, and be incredibly strong?

By RAW? IIRC, Yes. Should you? Probably not.

Spontaneous Divination is a common entry for Ultimate Magus cheese. You can't use most of the class features, due to how they are worded.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Unfortunately, a DFA/Warlock Hybrid has a major problem with Action Economy. Both classes' shtick is 'not quite as powerful SLA's, but unlimited use'. However, you can still only use them one at a time, and there's a great deal of overlap.

I suppose you can specialize in battlefield control with DFA, then use other kind of invocations with Warlock, but it's still kinda... I dunno... it just seems like they're each good, but don't pair well together because it's more of the same. You'd do better to blend them with something that has a totally different set of skills.

[Snowbluff]

Action economy is an issue, but not the definitive issue like it is with a proper caster. Losing a level of Invocations is worth racking up a large number of other ones. 12 invocations in total that you regularly get is a rather slim number. 11 (missing one dark) Warlock + the 7 DFI (highest being greater, which has a good number of the must-have invocations) is pretty sweet.

[Annos]

I'm Actually now not using Warlock, as I wanted DFA to be my main class and the second I added Eldritch Claw all my feats wen't into benifiting that particular feat. Since the Campaign will probebly continue into the epics, I have since decided that spelltheif would be a better choice. The option of the hybrid isn't off the table though.

I'd also like to know what the best flight related feats are for a Dragon breathing, flying maniac. (Yes flyby breath and stafering breath are on the list)

[Snowbluff]

I'd also like to know what the best flight related feats are for a Dragon breathing, flying maniac. (Yes flyby breath and stafering breath are on the list)

If you are going epic, see what you can do about qualifying for Epic invocation feats. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ei/20061027a) Although they are meant for Warlock, you may be able to use that good overlap between Lock and DFI invocations. If you can not, Warlock is better for epic levels.

Metabreath feats are good, if you get a breath weapon that works in rounds.

[Annos]

Half-Chaos dragon, with Dragon breath feat at sixth level + the Divine rights to Metabreath and Flight giving me all kinds of magical do-hickies, I think I'm good with meta-magic. Their is a feat that a allows a DFA to learn warlck invocations :smallwink:

[Snowbluff]

Half-Chaos dragon, with Dragon breath feat at sixth level + the Divine rights to Metabreath and Flight giving me all kinds of magical do-hickies, I think I'm good with meta-magic. Their is a feat that a allows a DFA to learn warlck invocations :smallwink:

There is, but you'll only learn lesser invocations at best. :smallfrown:

[Annos]

:smallfrown:

[Phelix-Mu]

If you are going epic, see what you can do about qualifying for Epic invocation feats. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ei/20061027a) Although they are meant for Warlock, you may be able to use that good overlap between Lock and DFI invocations. If you can not, Warlock is better for epic levels.

Metabreath feats are good, if you get a breath weapon that works in rounds.

Thanks for that link...gonna have to slate up some epic level warlock NPC baddies for the next campaign. Some of these are very good, especially since the normal range of epic feats do little to benefit the epic locks out there.

[Socratov]

Unfortunately, imagination alone isn't enough. Dragonfire Inspiration only adds to weapon damage rolls; Eldritch Blast doesn't qualify.

The typical route for buffing Warlock damage is Hellfire Warlock, the meta-SLA feats, and some pieces from the Magic Item Compendium.

Ehm, I'd like to note that by using Eldritch Glaive you make a weapon out of arcane energy (and it gives iteratives to boot)

[Cog]

Ehm, I'd like to note that by using Eldritch Glaive you make a weapon out of arcane energy (and it gives iteratives to boot)
It's a weapon-like effect, but it's still an SLA, and it's still not quite close enough. This one's been discussed before; if the search weren't down...

[Sgt. Cookie]

I asked in the RAW sticky, standard IC works, DFI doesn't.

My favourate thing to do with Warlock? Use it in conjunction with PrC Bard. Invoker Bards FTW!


You know, there has got to be a way to Theruge DFA and Warlock, all we have to do is find it.



EDIT: Extremely generous, highly dubious and cheesier than a Dairy Farm if I'm right? I'm probably wrong, but hey.

Lyric Thurmaturge advancing PrC Bard that Advanced both DFA and Warlock.

PrC Bard advanced both DFA and Warlock, meaning that they both are now "Bard Spellcasting".

Lyric Thurmatuge advances Bard Spellcasting, so it advances both as they are both considered "Bard spellcasting" simultaniously.

End result:

14 levels of one Invoker class

13 levels of the other