Making "Pathfinder light"

[Yora]

Or at least as light-ish as you can get a d20 game that isn't SWSE.

Even with all the great options to customize within an existing d20 game or to easily make total conversions to quite different games, I always thought the basic d20 chassis is too complex. There are too many rules and things to keep track off.

So I have been thinking, what parts of the game could be cut from it for being not really needed, while leaving the rest in perfect working order?

Here some starting idea I've come up with so far:
Core Rulebook only.
Only the 11 standard classes.
No Prestige Classes.
Maximum level 10. Everything above is ignored for now.
No favored classes: Just forget about them.
Limited choices for customizable class features.
No feats that require 11th or higher level. Reducing the number from 176 to 142.
Removing Greater Combat Maneuver feats. Reducing the number further to 136.
No item creation feats. Reducing the number of feats further to 129. (A total reduction of 27%.)
Maximum spell level 5th. This reduces the number of spells from about 600 to about 400. The other spells exist only as monster spell-like abilities.
No major magic items. Only minor and medium ones. This reduces the amount of magic items (excluding scrolls, wands, and potions) from 466 to 291.
Attacks of Opportunity for Moving away from enemies and casting spells. Everything else does not provoke.
No staying conscious at 0 hp. In all the years playing D&D and PF, I can't remember a single time where a character was at 0 hp. If it happens, just treat it the same as -1 while being automatically stabilized. This removes the disabled condition.
Cut the flare spell, which I believe is the only source of the dazzled condition.
Replace Damage Reduction x/chaos/evil/good/law with DR x/magic.
Remove the broken condition. An item is either okay or destroyed.
Remove the dazed condition and replace it with stunned.

I would say there is still great room for improvement with the grapple system, maybe doing something like Star Wars Saga has.

Also, replacing the Skill Rank system with either the SWSE system (add character level to trained skills, half character level to untrained skills, +3 bonus to trained skills), or a Skill Slot system like Myth & Magic (1 slot +3 bonus, 2 slots +6 bonus, 3 slots +9 bonus, 4 slots +12 bonus) would speed up character creation and level up a lot.

One posible simplification could be replacing Maximum Dexterity to AC and Armor check penalty for all armor with the numbers for Encumberance. But since you change armor so rarely, this might be unneccessary.

Any other ideas?

[Dsurion]

I've always liked the idea of getting rid of the separation between ability scores and ability modifiers. Instead of Str 12 giving you a +1 bonus, you have a Str score of 1, that grants +1 to anything Str elated like a modifier would. It just seems like a needless distinction.

[Snowbluff]

I would suggest rolling in the Greater Combat Maneuvers with their basic forms, not removing them.

The DR thing might need work. DR x/magic isn't very good.


I've always liked the idea of getting rid of the separation between ability scores and ability modifiers. Instead of Str 12 giving you a +1 bonus, you have a Str score of 1, that grants +1 to anything Str elated like a modifier would. It just seems like a needless distinction.

It's there for ability damages. :smalltongue:

[Yora]

True 20 did that, but I think it's not worth the trouble to change it, as that means altering everything that has Prerequisites of 13, 15, or 17; changing how ability damage works, and creating entirely new systems for ability score generation.

[subject42]

Attacks of Opportunity for Moving away from enemies and casting spells. Everything else does not provoke.


The "improved" combat maneuver feats gain most of their utility and value from removing the attack of opportunity associated with the maneuver. You want to consider either rethinking that change, dumping the feats, or combining the improved and greater feats.

[Amnestic]

I've been debating the merits of removing Defensive Casting (so casting spells while threatened always provokes), but I'm honestly not sure if it'd be a good change to make. Something to consider?

Also though you say "core rulebook only", you then go on to specifically call out the 11 base classes from it - does that imply that races from other sources are available? Needs clarification (for me, at least) I think.

[Yora]

The "improved" combat maneuver feats gain most of their utility and value from removing the attack of opportunity associated with the maneuver. You want to consider either rethinking that change, dumping the feats, or combining the improved and greater feats.
In case maybe make it "Moving away, using combat maneuvers, and casting spells". With Combat Maneuvers being a clearly defined thing in PF that's still an easy to remember universal rule.

I don't see defensive casting as much of a problem. With just the most basic rules, spells, and items, much of the terrible spellcasting abuse shouldn't be an issue. And obviously such a game wouldn't be for optimizers anyway, but for people who want the game easily accessible without doing a lot of work in character building.

[Alienist]

Why not just E6 or E8 with pathfinder?

E6 kills prestige classes, since there's no more "oh, I go five levels into this thing before I get the cool bit I was really after all along"

[subject42]

Have you verified that none of the feats you are removing could be taken by a ranger or 10th or less level? They both have clauses that allow them to ignore prerequisites for their bonus feats, and removing that ability would have a significant balance impact on the class.

[Rogue Shadows]

Cut the flare spell, which I believe is the only source of the dazzled condition.

Actually Light Sensitivity causes it as well; and a proposed fix for glitterdust involves making it apply that condition instead of blindness.

[Yora]

Have you verified that none of the feats you are removing could be taken by a ranger or 10th or less level? They both have clauses that allow them to ignore prerequisites for their bonus feats, and removing that ability would have a significant balance impact on the class.
That's indeed something that has to be kept in mind when making the complete feat list.

Why not just E6 or E8 with pathfinder?

E6 kills prestige classes, since there's no more "oh, I go five levels into this thing before I get the cool bit I was really after all along"
Bacuse all that E6 does is cutting down on class features, it doesn't make the game any simpler. People have been optimizing E6 characters to solo balors.

[Andreaz]

Cutting favored class bonuses doesn't really make the game any lighter. It's a simple, single decision made once per level and never again.

[only1doug]

To make Pathfinder light you must follow this sequence:

Take your pathfinder rulebook.

Carefully remove all the pages and place them in a secure metal cylinder with one open end. (The choice of material is vital here).
wait for nighttime.
take the metal cylinder outside into your garden.
Ignite the contents of the Cylinder.

You will find that your Pathfinder rules emit radiation in the visible spectrum and have drastically reduced in mass.
There, Now they are light in two different ways.

You are welcome.

Please note: I do not actually support the combustion of books, even pathfinder ones.
:smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:
:smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

[Scowling Dragon]

To make Pathfinder light you must follow this sequence:

Take your pathfinder rulebook.

Carefully remove all the pages and place them in a secure metal cylinder with one open end. (The choice of material is vital here).
wait for nighttime.
take the metal cylinder outside into your garden.
Ignite the contents of the Cylinder.

You will find that your Pathfinder rules emit radiation in the visible spectrum and have drastically reduced in mass.
There, Now they are light in two different ways.

You are welcome.

Please note: I do not actually support the combustion of books, even pathfinder ones.
:smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:
:smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

Truly the hight of wit and humor.

Whilst I like the spell slot style of spellcasting, a quicker form would just to smush all the spell points together, and allow for spontaneous casting.

[jedipilot24]

Also, replacing the Skill Rank system with either the SWSE system (add character level to trained skills, half character level to untrained skills, +3 bonus to trained skills),

Not to nitpick, but SWSE has +5 to trained skills, not +3.

[Yora]

Whilst I like the spell slot style of spellcasting, a quicker form would just to smush all the spell points together, and allow for spontaneous casting.
Spell points are the greatest thing ever, but would require extensive conversion work and change the game quite significally, instead of using just the important parts of it.