Master of Flurry (14 hits and you are dead)

[Siltharon]

Always wanted to play a powerful monk who flurrys anything in her way to death, but got scared away by the too-weak baseclass and a missing build to achieve that? I present to you the "Master of Flurry" or "14 hits and you're dead".

The build focuses on getting a lot of attacks through Greater Flurry of Blows, TWF and Rapidstrike, while having great surviveability, strong manifesting and of course dealing a good punch of dmg with every hit.
Additionally the build is entirely wisdom-based (thanks to Intuitive Strike and No thoughts) and solves the hit problem with double wis to attack.

The following build is a very strong version on how to achieve the "Master of Flurry" and should work for most settings and rulings. Ofc it can be changed to personal taste and I'll give some suggestions in the end on how to work around stubborn Dungeonmasters and how to optimize the build even more.
However there are some important points you definitely need for this build to work:
-A race that qualifies for Rapidstrike (aberration, dragon, elemental, magical beast, or plant type)
-Flaws allowed
-3.0 material allowed
-TWF and Flurry both with unarmed attacks possible (look at the bottom of the build for stubborn dms)
-Rapidstrike possible on Monk's unarmed attacks (same here)

So without further talking lets get to the build (I chose Elan for the added surviveability):

lawful good Elan Monk 1/ Psywar 12/ Shiba Protector 1/ Slayer 6
Str [14]10 Dex [21]25(+6item, +4tome) Con 14 Int 14 Wis 32(+5lvl, +5tome, +6item) Ch 6 (32 pb)
[with expansion]

1 Monk Monastic Training (Psywar), TWF, Combat Expertise (Flaw 1), Track (Flaw 2)
2 Psywar Psicrystal Affinity (I suggest nimble for +2 Init)
3 Psywar ACF Mantled Warrior (Freedom mantle), Intuitive Attack
4 Psywar
5 Psywar
6 Psywar Tashalatora, Practised Manifester (Psywar)
7 Psywar
8 Shiba Protector
9 Psywar Expanded Knowledge (Share Pain)
10 Psywar Improved TWF
11 Psywar
12 Psywar Snap Kick
13 Slayer
14 Slayer
15 Slayer Rapidstrike
16 Slayer
17 Slayer
18 Slayer impr. Rapidstrike
19 Psywar Greater TWF
20 Psywar

special: get Iron Will through Otyugh Hole before Level 8; you get Alertness from Psicrystal and together with Combat Expertise that qualifies you for Shiba Protector

epic-feats:Perfect TWF (or whatever the name is)

Skills: Tumble is your friend, also max Concentration and while Slayer put as much points as possible into Spot and Listen (together with your high Wis and detect hostile intent that makes your Charakter almost impossible to get caught by surprise)

core items: +6 dex item, +6 wis item, +5 wis tome, +4 dex tome, +5 necklace of natural weapons, monks belt, Fanged Ring

suggested powers (don't forget you got 203 pp)
1 Dimension Hop, Inertial Armor, Vigor, Expansion
2 Damp Power, Hustle, Power Claws, Detect Hostile intent, [Share Pain]
3 Claws of the Vampire, Empathic Transfer,hostile (SRD version)
4 Energy Adaption, Steadfast Perception, Fly
5
6 Dispelling Buffer, Mind Blank (personal)
leaves you with one power of 5th level or lower

Analysis:
Unarmed Dmg: 6w8 (2w6+Belt=2w8+Fanged Ring=3w8+Expansion^2=6w8)

Dmg: Mainhand (10):6d8+11+5+2 = 45/ Snap Kick and Offhand (4): 6w8+11+5+1 = 44

we end with a bab of 16(+wisx2+5)-2(size):
+41/+36/+31/+26
add TWF, Snap Kick and Greater Flurry of Blows
+37(SK)/+37/+37/+37/+37/+32/+32/+27/+27/+22
add Rapidstrike, Improved Rapidstrike
+37(SK)/+37/+37/+37/+37/+32/+32/+32/+27/+27/+27/+27/+27/+22
14 attacks

Possible Dmg: 84w8+154(wis)+70(Necklace)+24(str)=657,3 average dmg (including critchance)

Possible lifesteal: 84w8x0,5=189 average Healing

Ac is 10+5(dex)+11(wis)+3(monk)+Intertial Armor (+13)-2size= 40 without using natural, insight, shield or deflection

Saves without further boosts: Wil +24 Ref +12 Fort +16 (note that Elan can give +4 to critical saves)


I think the stats above speak for themselves. In addition the Master of Flurry is constantly hard to kill due to being an Elan (and all the nice stuff you can do with them and pp).

Buffed and with the right gear this Charakter is an absolut monster:
-14 attacks a 44-45 dmg (which still hit pretty good) and 14,5 heal
-immune to mind affecting effects, illusions and scrying
-very good spot and listen checks and with detect hostile intent almost impossible to surprise
-harder to dispel the buffs he already has thanks to Dispelling Buffer
-Use Power Claws to overcome Dr (can overcome for up to 9 attacks)
-Vigor + Share Pain in conjunction with the Elan racial abilities and the Masters ability to heal himself through Claws and Empathic Transfer almost impossible to kill by pure dmg
-40ft movement (freedom mantle) and can give up his focus to get a bonus on escaping grapple

In addition the Build has great mobility with hustle and dimension hop and you can use powers more often than the usual Psywar thanks to the high Wis

Further boosts: use Bite of the Wolf (isn't really Monkstyle but it's basically for free) for another attack at +32 and an average dmg of 71, add items and/or tomes for str and con, use other means to boost your Wis even higher, something to resist death effects and level drain (yep ... probably the biggest weakness here), something to attain Haste for another attack and all the other gimics to get more out of your attacks
-Belt of Battle (wanna do the whole thing 2 times? ... usually not necessary though because almost everything except for the toughest monsters should be dead after the first full attack)


Stubborn DM:
-If your DM rules that you can't use TWF and Flurry (and that is completely bull**** by RAI and argueably by RAW), you may work around that by using the Scorpion Kama from MIC (p. 201) .... in that case use Power Weapon and Vampiric Weapon instead of their Claw pendants (you can't apply it on your bite or claws though)
-If you Dm rules that you can't use Rapidstrike on Monk's unarmed attacks (And that might very well happen) then just show him the following and ask if he's gonna make an exception: Use Claws of the Beast and Unorthodox Flurry (if he insists on this rule that you can't use anything forbidden to a Flurry in addition to it (that is not core though)) .... now you got a way higher dmg output, but lost a great punch of the monkflavour ... gj! (like you see ... probably it isn't RAW or RAI but it doesn't hurt to allow it .... in fact it's better to allow it than to force the player to use Natural Attacks)

Can't get an Otyugh hole?: Well that sucks ... either delay Share Pain or Snap Kick to epic levels

Comparison to the King of Smack: well that comparison is necessary (at least in my opinion) since they both are Psywar/Natural Weapon builds: I feel like the Master of Flurry is in general superior but there are some exceptions:
-more dependant on buffs and gear (scales better with said though)
-no AoO boni (that's probably the only real drawback)
In an encounter the Master will most likely beat the King if they both are equally equipped (as long as the Master has his minimum gear to reach 23 dex)
-the cheesiness factor is higher since it's argueably if you can apply Rapidstrike on monk's unarmed attacks (without that the build obviously doesn't work the way it should)

Hope you enjoy and please let me know about wrong spelling or grammar (english isn't my native language)

Special thanks to for helping me finish the build: T.G. Oskar, Darrin

[Curmudgeon]

Two-weapon fighting rules have this requirement:
If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon.
You've only got a single unarmed strike, which you can perform with any handy part of your body. (To wield a second unarmed strike you would have to have a second body.) So you're going to have to have a special Monk weapon for your off hand attacks. I don't recommend TWF in general, and especially for 3/4 BAB classes the cost (lots of feats, restricted to full attacks, and a -2 minimum penalty to hit) is prohibitive. Your Snap Kick feat has the same penalty but is also usable on standard action attacks and AoOs, so it doesn't have the action cost of TWF.

Basically, your approach (lots of attacks) is going to suck against any opponent with damage reduction, which reduces the impact of every hit. You'd be more productive increasing your damage per hit. One very handy way to accomplish that, at least for your unarmed strike, is with the Greater Mighty Wallop spell (Races of the Dragon, page 115). Get your handy party arcane spellcaster to cast that on you once daily and you'll be in good shape.

[LTwerewolf]

Rapidstrike and improved rapidstrike require natural attacks, which elans don't get. You also lack improved unarmed strike, so they're getting AoOs against you as well.

[Yogibear41]

Rapidstrike and improved rapidstrike require natural attacks, which elans don't get. You also lack improved unarmed strike, so they're getting AoOs against you as well.

He has 1 level in monk = improved unarmed strike and monk unarmed strikes count as both natural and manufactured weapons.

[LTwerewolf]

There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. Rapid strike requires one or more pairs of natural weapons. One level of monk does not instantly mean rapidstrike.

This also cuts out TWF with it as well, since a monk’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet. You're already using all parts of your body for the full number of hits.

If you want a large number of hits, be a dragonkin, and take 1 level of monk and a smattering of other classes to get your bab high enough to qualify for rapidstrike and improved rapidstrike. 4 claw attacks turns into 12 claw attacks, plus 5 from an unarmed flurry. See? That was easier.

[Alienist]

Don't forget your Eversmoking Bottle. YOU ARE NOT A PROPER MONK IF YOU DON'T HAVE ONE.

---

If I was the DM, I'd argue the point about the Rapidstrike Feat. The build is an Abomination, not an Aberration, and therefore doesn't qualify.

---

As an aside, this sort of thing is the reason that the Monk class sucks so very much. There's a kind of chaos theory strange attractor that sucks people into trying to make high damage builds. Personally I blame Flurry of Blows. I think if that part hadn't been ported into third edition, then the game designers might have actually done something interesting with it. As it is, the designers look at it, think to themselves "OMG it haz teh attackzors!" And so they repeatedly hit it with the nerf stick because they're scared of it (e.g. immunity to disease? Whack! Make it non-magical diseases instead).

As a big fan of wuxia in general, I'd have much preferred to see something based on supreme defence (blocking and dodging and shrugging off spell effects), rather than supreme offence.

[Kazyan]

LTWerewolf: IUS comes from default Monk, but appears to be unlisted. It looks like Rapidstrike/Improved Rapidstrike are assumed to work with Monk unarmed strikes, which are treates as natural and manufactured weapons as per the Monk description.

Siltharon:

EDIT: Didn't know about the "nothing besides monk weapons in a flurry" rule, so the below is useless, but I'm keeping it here anyway.

Since we're already allowing 3.0 material, consider getting inked with a psionic tattoo (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20031225a): Form of Doom, linked to a Capacitor, linked to a Transducer. Maybe throw in a Mental Tap. Basically, you can charge up the capacitor at a 2:1 power point ratio, then activate FoD when it's full--as a swift action, with a Mental Tap. (Charge the capacitor at the end of a day in which you haven't spent all your PP, and it's like having a buff in reserve.)

That fiddling there is because Form of Doom is an excellent Psywar buff, granting you 4 secondary tentacle attacks and some other goodies, if you care to add attacks that aren't unarmed strikes to the Master of Flurry. Unfortunately, you can't cram +1 Aptitude for four tentacles on top of the Necklace of Natural Weapons you already have--not without spending far, far too much gold for the benefit--but if you could, the Rapidstrike chain would apply to the tentacles.

[andromax]

He has 1 level in monk = improved unarmed strike and A monk's unarmed strikes can be treated as either manufactured or natural weapons when applying spells or effects that enhance either manufactured or natural weapons.

Fixed it for ya.

Also, for what it's worth..

Article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070403a)A nonmonk weapon or a natural weapon can't be combined with a flurry in any way.

[Siltharon]

@ Kazyan and Alienist: thanks for adding the first useful input
also thanks to Yogibear41

I won't discuss if TWF and Flurry are useable because that discussion doesn't belong here and it comes always up again
I do think it is perfectly RAI and also RAW that TWF and Flurry are useable (please don't post if you don't know all the arguements about that topic and/or just wanna bring up the old "TWF doesn't work on Flurry" crap)

Just by RAW you have pairs of natural weapons as a monk. First of all monks unarmed attacks count as natural and manifactured weapons and second of all you obviously have pairs of natural weapons (be it legs, arms or hands) (well that is cheesy I admit ... might be argueable though) .... that is apart from the above mentioned TWF/Flurry discussion

[Siltharon]

Also, for what it's worth..

Hmm so no Bite Attack on top .... Unorthodox Flurry might be a workaround for that .... but basically the build works except for that

[LTwerewolf]

The rules disagree. TWF specifically calls out unarmed attacks as an option, and even reiterates the whole 'unarmed attacks are always light weapons' thing which so many people are in denial about.



(emphasis added)

That's combining an unarmed strike with a weapon, not an unarmed strike with itself.

[Curmudgeon]

and second of all you obviously have pairs of natural weapons (be it legs, arms or hands) .... that is apart from the above mentioned TWF/Flurry discussion
Please check again. Your legs, arms, and hands are not on the weapon list. You only have an unarmed strike. Those items you list are just striking surfaces of that single weapon. (You also can't count the separate edges of a sword as different weapons; those too are just striking surfaces.)

[Toliudar]

Okay, so since we're not having the TWF conversation, I'd say that the two big impediments to this build doing what it wants would be:


Damage Reduction in its many forms.
Miss chances.


Suggestions to deal with those, given the current build?

[Siltharon]

Two-weapon fighting rules have this requirement:
You've only got a single unarmed strike, which you can perform with any handy part of your body. (To wield a second unarmed strike you would have to have a second body.) So you're going to have to have a special Monk weapon for your off hand attacks. I don't recommend TWF in general, and especially for 3/4 BAB classes the cost (lots of feats, restricted to full attacks, and a -2 minimum penalty to hit) is prohibitive. Your Snap Kick feat has the same penalty but is also usable on standard action attacks and AoOs, so it doesn't have the action cost of TWF.

Basically, your approach (lots of attacks) is going to suck against any opponent with damage reduction, which reduces the impact of every hit. You'd be more productive increasing your damage per hit. One very handy way to accomplish that, at least for your unarmed strike, is with the Greater Mighty Wallop spell (Races of the Dragon, page 115). Get your handy party arcane spellcaster to cast that on you once daily and you'll be in good shape.

TWF point I won't adress here. The hit isn't a problem with double wis to hit and also I wouldn't be worried about the movement ... hustle and dimension hop should solve the problem pretty well (aside from that... every melee has that problem)

Damage reduction? Power Claws? with one use you can apply it on 9 attacks (assuming 19pp spent) and I doubt you hit more than 11 times or so anyways
So 7x45+2x44 .... 403 dmg still ... byebye dr




That's combining an unarmed strike with a weapon, not an unarmed strike with itself.

argueably ... can be interpreted both way (also again ... Scorpion Kama) by RAW
and I do say it is RAI

[Siltharon]

Okay, so since we're not having the TWF conversation, I'd say that the two big impediments to this build doing what it wants would be:


Damage Reduction in its many forms.
Miss chances.


Suggestions to deal with those, given the current build?

power claws for dr
miss is a problem that's true (except for incorporeal creatures ... power claws also solves this problem)

[Siltharon]

Please check again. Your legs, arms, and hands are not on the weapon list. You only have an unarmed strike. Those items you list are just striking surfaces of that single weapon. (You also can't count the separate edges of a sword as different weapons; those too are just striking surfaces.)

added a point referring to that in the build ... obviously it won't work if you interpret it in certain ways or maybe even go strictly RAW (am not quite sure about that though)
The build is slightly cheesy when it comes down to that, but not as cheesy as some other accepted builds out there I'd say

[LTwerewolf]

You still haven't explained why you qualify for rapidstrike.

A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured
weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects
that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural
weapons (such as the magic fang and magic weapon spells).

This mention does not include feats.

[Siltharon]

You still haven't explained why you qualify for rapidstrike.

A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured
weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects
that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural
weapons (such as the magic fang and magic weapon spells).

This mention does not include feats.

Thanks for bringing that up:
you missed the next part though: This allows a monk access to all manner of weapon enhancements for her unarmed strikes. For example, a monk can use the Improved Natural Attack feat to increase her unarmed strike damage.

edit: If you have a pair of natural weapons, such as
two claws, two wings, or two slams, you can make one extra
attack with one of those weapons at a –5 penalty. A creature
with multiple limbs qualifies for this feat as well, such as a
creature with three arms and three claw attacks.

the only real argueable point is if a Monk's unarmed attacks (and all the ways you might apply them) can count as two natural weapon: I still think that it is kinda weird to argue against that since ie slams are listed and what are two fists of a monk? ... you might just have one monk's natural attack but you can deliver it through whatever limps you have and therefor making every part of your body a weapon -> so you actually have pairs of natural weapons (have to admit it's slightly cheesy)
(if you go really, really cheesy you could even say you have several pairs and take the feat multiple times)

[LTwerewolf]

Yeah, don't see that clause in either the SRD or the player's handbook.

The entirety of the excerpt from the SRD:

At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply her full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all her unarmed strikes.

Usually a monk’s unarmed strikes deal lethal damage, but she can choose to deal nonlethal damage instead with no penalty on her attack roll. She has the same choice to deal lethal or nonlethal damage while grappling.

A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.

A monk also deals more damage with her unarmed strikes than a normal person would, as shown on Table: The Monk. The unarmed damage on Table: The Monk is for Medium monks. A Small monk deals less damage than the amount given there with her unarmed attacks, while a Large monk deals more damage; see Table: Small or Large Monk Unarmed Damage.

[Karnith]

Thanks for bringing that up:
you missed the next part though: This allows a monk access to all manner of weapon enhancements for her unarmed strikes. For example, a monk can use the Improved Natural Attack feat to increase her unarmed strike damage.

the only real argueable point is if a Monk's unarmed attacks (and all the ways you might apply them) can count as two natural weapons (I still think that it is kinda weird to argue against that since ie slams are listed and what are two fists of a monk?) ... that might be pov though and somewhat cheesy
An unarmed strike does not qualify for Rapidstrike because you only have one, while Rapidstrike requires a pair of natural weapons; monk's unarmed strikes are specifically called out as using any form of unarmed strike, whether kicking, punching, or head-butting. As Curmudgeon pointed out earlier, it is akin to arguing that a sword having a double-edged blade qualifies for two-weapon fighting. Slams are included in the Rapidstrike feat description because a creature can have multiple slam attacks (well, if they're large and have at least two arms). A monk, though, will only ever have one unarmed strike, however many times he can hit with it in a round.

Think about it this way: When you make a flurry of blows, you don't alternate between different unarmed strikes, it's the same weapon each time. (This is, incidentally, why by RAW you can't usually use Two-Weapon Fighting with unarmed strikes only.)

[Siltharon]

Yeah, don't see that clause in either the SRD or the player's handbook.

The entirety of the excerpt from the SRD:

At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply her full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all her unarmed strikes.

Usually a monk’s unarmed strikes deal lethal damage, but she can choose to deal nonlethal damage instead with no penalty on her attack roll. She has the same choice to deal lethal or nonlethal damage while grappling.

A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.

A monk also deals more damage with her unarmed strikes than a normal person would, as shown on Table: The Monk. The unarmed damage on Table: The Monk is for Medium monks. A Small monk deals less damage than the amount given there with her unarmed attacks, while a Large monk deals more damage; see Table: Small or Large Monk Unarmed Damage.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070403a ... that's the put together stuff of monks and unarmed fightig

[LTwerewolf]

Unarmed Strikes and Natural Weaponry

Before we move on, it's worth pointing out that a character making an unarmed attack, even with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, does not have natural weapons. Nor is a natural weapon a substitute for the Improved Unarmed Strike feat.

^what about that part?

Or this part?V

A feat that requires natural weaponry as a prerequisite, such as Multiattack, doesn't work with unarmed strikes.

[Siltharon]

An unarmed strike does not qualify for Rapidstrike because you only have one, while Rapidstrike requires a pair of natural weapons; monk's unarmed strikes are specifically called out as using any form of unarmed strike, whether kicking, punching, or head-butting. As Curmudgeon pointed out earlier, it is akin to arguing that a sword having a double-edged blade qualifies for two-weapon fighting. Slams are included in the Rapidstrike feat description because a creature can have multiple slam attacks (well, if they're large and have at least two arms). A monk, though, will only ever have one unarmed strike, however many times he can hit with it in a round.

Think about it this way: When you make a flurry of blows, you don't alternate between different unarmed strikes, it's the same weapon each time. (This is, incidentally, why by RAW you can't usually use Two-Weapon Fighting with unarmed strikes only.)

Hmmm well ... I still say the RAW is argueable in both cases and I don't think it's RAI
-> A Monk can't use TWF but he could punch 5 times with his right hand and not using his offhand like a warrior could? That discussion is old and I don't think there's ever gonna be a solution for it since it is merely interpretation and the texts (Like I said ... pls don't discuss that here ... I assume it for that build)


Also pls note ... After all it's just a build to make a monkflavoured Charakter viable and most dms shouldn't have a problem with some cheese because after all the build won't be much higher than good t3 (maybe t2, but there are already psions etc so meh ...)
I for example wouldn't have a problem to allow it (would have to be a strong group then though)

[Curmudgeon]

Unarmed Strikes and Natural Weaponry

Before we move on, it's worth pointing out that a character making an unarmed attack, even with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, does not have other natural weapons.
I adjusted that for you. Unarmed strike is a natural weapon; it's just one with unique treatment under the rules. The Improved Natural Attack feat may be taken to improve your unarmed strike; that feat requires a natural weapon. Similarly, the Necklace of Natural Attacks (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20060707a) may be used to enhance your unarmed strike.

[LTwerewolf]

I adjusted that for you. Unarmed strike is a natural weapon; it's just one with unique treatment under the rules. The Improved Natural Attack feat may be taken to improve your unarmed strike; that feat requires a natural weapon. Similarly, the Necklace of Natural Attacks (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20060707a) may be used to enhance your unarmed strike.

Your fix didn't fix it, i quoted that straight from the site. That's what THEY said about it. Read the next part. It straight up specifically says it does not qualify for feats that require natural attacks such as multiattack, which means rapid strike as well.

[Siltharon]

Unarmed Strikes and Natural Weaponry

Before we move on, it's worth pointing out that a character making an unarmed attack, even with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, does not have natural weapons. Nor is a natural weapon a substitute for the Improved Unarmed Strike feat.

^what about that part?

Or this part?V

A feat that requires natural weaponry as a prerequisite, such as Multiattack, doesn't work with unarmed strikes.

where are both those on the page?
1.: doesn't matter, as long as you can take feats which require natural weapons
that brings me to point 2. that is a contradiction to This allows a monk access to all manner of weapon enhancements for her unarmed strikes. For example, a monk can use the Improved Natural Attack feat to increase her unarmed strike damage. since Improved Natural Attack requires you to have a natural weapon

[LTwerewolf]

They are further up on the page, ctrl+f it. They contradict themselves often. That makes for broken rules that are not to be used in real gameplay.

[Curmudgeon]

Your fix didn't fix it, i quoted that straight from the site. That's what THEY said about it.
"THEY" = Skip Williams. Those "Rules of the Game" articles (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070403a) are a mix of actual rules, Skip's house rules, and errors — without much to distinguish which of those categories a particular passage should fit in.

It's really best to stay with the actual D&D rules, and Skip (sorry, couldn't resist :smallbiggrin:) the commentary.

So yes, I did fix it.

[LTwerewolf]

Even if that's the case, my original point stands then, and he still doesn't qualify for rapidstrike. So either way, it's a no. Either he has 1 natural attack and doesn't qualify, or he has 0 natural attacks, and doesn't qualify.

[Alienist]

I revise my earlier statement. I was wrong and LTWerewolf was right.

By the rules, if you are (for instance) a fighter with two empty hands you can attack twice with unarmed strikes using the rules for two weapon fighting.

However, if you take even a single level of monk, you lose the ability to do this.

[Curmudgeon]

Even if that's the case, my original point stands then, and he still doesn't qualify for rapidstrike. So either way, it's a no. Either he has 1 natural attack and doesn't qualify, or he has 0 natural attacks, and doesn't qualify.
I never disputed that point, because you're correct: Rapidstrike requires at least one pair of natural weapons, and an unarmed strike is never a pair (except in the odd case of Dvati twin characters).
By the rules, if you are (for instance) a fighter with two empty hands you can attack twice with unarmed strikes using the rules for two weapon fighting.
I still don't see how you get that. Two-weapon fighting rules require you to wield a second weapon in your off hand. Whether you're a Monk or Fighter makes no difference with the number of unarmed strikes you have: it's still just one. Monk/Fighter, trained/untrained doesn't change that.

If you have two daggers, those daggers can have different properties. One could be your cheap basic weapon, and the other could be +1 keen. But if you've only got one dagger, you can't have different properties for the left edge and right edges; it's all part of a single weapon. There's no normal mechanism in the game for different parts of your unarmed strike to have different properties*, simply because it's just a single weapon.

* - There is one abnormal mechanism which accomplishes this. D&D is a game that's full of exceptions, and the Kensai prestige class is a special case in this regard.

[Alienist]

I still don't see how you get that. Two-weapon fighting rules require you to wield a second weapon in your off hand. Whether you're a Monk or Fighter makes no difference with the number of unarmed strikes you have: it's still just one. Monk/Fighter, trained/untrained doesn't change that.


Two Weapon Fighting lets you make a second attack with your off hand.
Two weapon Fighting specifically says it can be used with unarmed attacks.

Ergo Two Weapon Fighting can be used unarmed.

Moreover, your objection that you need two weapons is non-sensical, since an unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon.

The only time your (and similar) objections come into play would be if you detached your hand and wielded it your other hand. Which, while possibly possible, is several standard deviations away from 'relevant to discussion at hand' (sic).

Look, here's the text of Two Weapon Fighting:



Two-Weapon Fighting [General]
You can fight with a weapon in each hand. You can make one extra attack each round with the second weapon.

Prerequisite
Dex 15.

Benefit
Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are reduced. The penalty for your primary hand lessens by 2 and the one for your off hand lessens by 6. See the Two-Weapon Fighting special attack.

Normal
If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. When fighting in this way you suffer a -6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a -10 penalty to the attack with your off hand. If your off-hand weapon is light the penalties are reduced by 2 each. (An unarmed strike is always considered light.)

Special
A 2nd-level ranger who has chosen the two-weapon combat style is treated as having Two-Weapon Fighting, even if he does not have the prerequisite for it, but only when he is wearing light or no armor.

A fighter may select Two-Weapon Fighting as one of his fighter bonus feats.


Why are you even arguing about this? It is right there in black and white.

Now the reason that you cease to be able to do this as soon as you pick up even a single level of monk is because the Monk class specifically strips you of the ability to have an off-hand.

[Darrin]

There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed.


If you read the FAQ (I posted the relevent entries (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14697461&postcount=25) in the other thread), then that sentence only applies to unarmed strikes that are used within a Flurry attack. According to the FAQ, a monk can use TWF and make offhand unarmed strikes just like anyone else (even while Flurrying), but if they do so, the offhand unarmed strikes are treated like any other offhand weapon: -2 penalty for a light weapon, and 1/2 Str bonus on damage.

I'm not entirely sure I agree with the FAQ, and it should also be noted that the FAQ is not RAW or errata, but in this case at least it's not going out of its way to be inconsistent or contradictory (or at least not any more so than usual).



Rapid strike requires one or more pairs of natural weapons. One level of monk does not instantly mean rapidstrike.


Correct. Hmmm. To get Rapidstrike in there... probably going to cost a feat. Dragonwrought Kobold qualifies and has claw/claw/bite. Dragonborn Elan + Shape Soulmeld: Claws of the Wyrm gets you a pair of claws. Warforged + Second Slam might work if you can figure out how to switch the type to aberration or dragon.



Article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070403a)A nonmonk weapon or a natural weapon can't be combined with a flurry in any way.


As has been previously noted, Skip's opinions on how the rules work is not RAW. While this statement is factually correct (mostly), an unarmed strike is an exception that counts as both a monk special weapon and a natural weapon. There are additional feats that allow certain weapons to count as monk weapons (Unorthodox Flurry, and a bunch of Eberron feats that add stuff like longswords and whatnot).


You still haven't explained why you qualify for rapidstrike.

A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured
weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects
that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural
weapons (such as the magic fang and magic weapon spells).

This mention does not include feats.

Note: "effects" is not a very well defined term, and can include feats. In general, most feats specific to natural weapons work with unarmed strikes. At least, that's usually the consensus on this forum, in as much as we can agree on anything involving unarmed strikes/natural attacks (and most of the time we don't).

But you are correct, unarmed strike by itself is not enough to qualify for rapidstrike. You need a "pair" of natural weapons, and except for the Kensai, unarmed strikes are never considered to be a "pair" of attacks, even if you get more than one attack per round.


the only real argueable point is if a Monk's unarmed attacks (and all the ways you might apply them) can count as two natural weapon: I still think that it is kinda weird to argue against that since ie slams are listed and what are two fists of a monk?


Don't go there. If you thought the TWF+Flurry arguments were pointlessly annoying, then don't even bring up slams... ugh.

Although, unlike unarmed strike, you *can* get two slams. Warforged + Second Slam feat. Mighty Arms graft could give a slam to an elan, but unfortunately you don't qualify for Second Slam (Warforged required) without some kind of handwaving.



By the rules, if you are (for instance) a fighter with two empty hands you can attack twice with unarmed strikes using the rules for two weapon fighting.


Well, no. You still need a "second" weapon to TWF. Unarmed strike still only counts as one weapon. If you use unarmed strike as your primary weapon, it's no longer available for your "offhand" weapon.

Some groups allow this under the theory that unarmed strikes represent multiple striking surfaces, and thus unarmed strikes can represent multiple weapons. This is moving a little further in RAI territory than RAW, but if it works for your group that way, hey, no worries.



However, if you take even a single level of monk, you lose the ability to do this.

Nope. Monks can still TWF, at least according to the FAQ. Of course, the FAQ isn't RAW. As has been noted, there's not much point to arguing this further: your group either allows this or it doesn't.



Moreover, your objection that you need two weapons is non-sensical, since an unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon.


Whether or not a weapon is considered light is completely irrelevant to whether or not you have multiple weapons. If your unarmed strike is already your primary weapon, it can't be your offhand weapon. Likewise, if it's already your offhand weapon, it can't be your primary weapon. *Some* groups allow unarmed strikes to be both the primary and offhand weapon at the same time. But while this doesn't directly violate RAW (as you may have noticed, RAW is pretty murky on this point), it doesn't agree with what's implied by the FAQ.



Now the reason that you cease to be able to do this as soon as you pick up even a single level of monk is because the Monk class specifically strips you of the ability to have an off-hand.

That was not the intended purpose of that "there is no such thing as an offhand" sentence in the Monk description. Per the FAQ, that was only pertaining to unarmed strikes when used as part of a flurry. I'm not entirely sure *how* the FAQ came to that conclusion, but there are several different ways to interpret that sentence. At best, it's a very poorly worded and ambiguous sentence. The best information we have on this issue is that it was trying to clarify what happens to your Str bonus during a flurry, and was not intended to strip the ability to have offhand attacks from the monk.

[Curmudgeon]

Two Weapon Fighting lets you make a second attack with your off hand.
Two weapon Fighting specifically says it can be used with unarmed attacks.

Ergo Two Weapon Fighting can be used unarmed.
Absolutely. It just can't be used by itself, as two weapons. Two-weapon fighting requires two weapons. (That's easy enough to understand, right?)

Moreover, your objection that you need two weapons is non-sensical, How is something clearly stated in the rules "non-sensical"?

Two-Weapon Fighting

If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon.
since an unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon.
Yes, it's categorized as a light weapon: one light weapon. The rule clearly states that you need a second weapon for two-weapon fighting.

[animewatcha]

Forgive Curmudgeon a bit. He can be a bit annoying with Player's Handbook and DMG being taken as bible no matta what ( he is right atleast some of the time. Just not all the time when additional sources come into play ). Nevermind additional sources sometimes changing things up a bit. Like exceptions.

Some of the FAQ ( like the two-weapon flurrying thing ) is taken from Asking the Sage from drag mag. With the drag mag going a bit further into detail IIRC. It may not help matters much, but WOTC at the time endorsed drag mag and even had an 'Ask the Sage' section on their website.

Heck, a skarn monk can do two-weapon fighting butt-nekkid. Add a level in shou disciple and he can flurry in light armor and load don't matter. Even keeps AC bonus and Wis bonus ( or Int if you changed it via feat ).

I always wondered about considered 'one unarmed strike' towards manufactored weapons end and 'offhand unarmed strike' towards natural weapon with a bit of exception kinda due to 'monk'.


-edit- Now if you are wanting to be 'master of flurry' for lots of hits, would need a bit of rules abuse and specific sources to be open ( drag mag ) and be a shifter and find way for pounce ( feat most likely ) and 11th level of 'flurry monk' . So one can full-attack/flurry as a swift action jump ( travel devotion and battle jump or the other jump - charge feat ) then flurry again at the 'end of that charge'. All still within the same swift action. Move action, jump into pounce into double the flurry. Move action again. If you can find way to make it work with TWF and add in lots of natural attacks ( totemist ) within each charge execution. More power to you.

[Jacob.Tyr]

Doing an unarmed strike with your "offhand" does not mean doing it with your left hand. It means not doing it with your primary hand.

The reason you can't "TWF" with flurry of blows is that flurry of blows is just there to let monks get something like TWF. It's better than claiming your 2 hands let you TWF, doesn't cost a bunch of feats, and I honestly believe it's only there to avoid conversations like this.

Necklace of natural weapons doesn't work on monks, either. That's only in game to give an alternative to mighty fists that's cheaper for creatures with only 1 natural weapon. Might fist's oddly implies monks have 3 natural weapons(based on it's cost).

So... assuming TWF is just flurry, and monks have 3 natural weapons based on the price of an amulet of mighty fists... go with multiweapon fighting instead of TWF and sidestipe all of this flurry/twf nonsense. 50% more bang for your feat-bucks.

[LTwerewolf]

Actually the necklace of natural attacks does work with monks. It's pretty specific in the unarmed strike section.

[alanek2002]

Ignoring the TWF debate and such, it has already been argued elsewhere. consider adding kensai. each level allows you to add up to class level enhancements on your natural weapons practically for free. this includes named enhancements, not just the +1/+2 flat stuff. should help with damage reduction. handy thread: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870158/The_3.5_Weapon_Special_Abilities_thread

[SowZ]

How are you a Shiba Protector as an Elan? It is a human only PrC.

[animewatcha]

I am going by elan fluff here and races of destiny, but elan might be one of those races that can be considered 'human' as far as pre-reqs go. Like Mongrelfolk, changeling, doppleganger. Unsure though.

[Siltharon]

How are you a Shiba Protector as an Elan? It is a human only PrC.

true by RAW but like animewatcha said it's argueably a humansubrace ... in addition the class is settingspecific anyways so if you use it out of setting you basically could ignore this or if the dm insists on it being for one clan you could just say the Elan is a member of the clan
that shouldn't really be a problem about the build.

and about what Darrin said: Yes it would be possible to work around the arguement by taking a feat like unorthodox flurry and using Claws of the Beast from Psywar to gain the two claw attacks (in addition I think the ruling that you can't use anything forbidden to a flurry in addition to it like natural attacks, but however)
my point is though .... why the **** would you want to do that as a dm? I mean yes by RAW it would work then but the only thing you achieved is that you forced your player to go away from his purely monkstyle character and make an even more powerful one with claws -,-

Monks need any help they can get anyways so why even have the discussion about Flurry and TWF ... to nerf them even more?
I admit that by RAW using Rapidstrike on unarmed attacks is argueably impossible, but again ... do you want to nerf the monk even more?
I for my part think that TWF and Flurry are perfectly RAI and even fair (because wtf)
Rapidstrike is argueably RAW (cheesy arguable though) and probably not RAI, but still how much does it hurt the Gamemechanics if you are allowed to do so?

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

It probably doesn't hurt to throw the monk a bone, but your build isn't really a monk. It's a Psychic Warrior with some odd build choices that you're asking a GM to indirectly buff through favorable rules interpretations.

[Siltharon]

It probably doesn't hurt to throw the monk a bone, but your build isn't really a monk. It's a Psychic Warrior with some odd build choices that you're asking a GM to indirectly buff through favorable rules interpretations.

then again ... lets assume I work around this whole crap by using claws of the beast and unorthodox Flurry .... yiha now we are RAW (who said that again with 100%legal 110%stupid?)
Now I have a more powerful charakter who just lost a big punch of the monkflavour and deals more dmg -,- .... you dm is gonna love you for that

I still think TWF and Flurry are RAW and RAI and even discussing about it is kinda weird since it will pretty much always depend on the Dm .... except if a core designer tells us exactly how it was meant.

[JBento]

I am going by elan fluff here and races of destiny, but elan might be one of those races that can be considered 'human' as far as pre-reqs go. Like Mongrelfolk, changeling, doppleganger. Unsure though.

It's not. Unlike mongrelfolk and changeling, there's no clause in the elan that says "counts as a human for X." Heck, they're not even Humanoids, they're Aberrations.

[Siltharon]

Ignoring the TWF debate and such, it has already been argued elsewhere. consider adding kensai. each level allows you to add up to class level enhancements on your natural weapons practically for free. this includes named enhancements, not just the +1/+2 flat stuff. should help with damage reduction. handy thread: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870158/The_3.5_Weapon_Special_Abilities_thread

Thanks for the suggestion. I'm not really fond of loosing more manifesting cause that would mean loosing either Mind Blank or Dispelling Buffer ... in addition the Dr problem is pretty much solved with Power Claws

[Pickford]

Yes, it's categorized as a light weapon: one light weapon. The rule clearly states that you need a second weapon for two-weapon fighting.

Common mistake, the term light weapon doesn't actually make an item a weapon, it just refers to how it is treated 'if' used as a weapon. (-4 penalties in disarm and so on.)

A beer bottle or table leg when used as a weapon is treated as a light weapon as well...but that doesn't transform them 'into' weapons.

Since several appear confused a rundown:

Unarmed strikes do not have an offhand.
Basis: Why does this matter? Because off hand weapon strikes take 1/2 the str modifier, mainhand take the full str modifier.
Conclusion: unarmed strikes always take the full str modifier.

In the example of making an offhand unarmed strike, the fighter has attacked with a sword in their mainhand. If you are using flurry of blows and have a weapon (even an improvised weapon) as your MH attack you can do unarmed strikes to get the TWF OH attacks.

[Siltharon]

Common mistake, the term light weapon doesn't actually make an item a weapon, it just refers to how it is treated 'if' used as a weapon. (-4 penalties in disarm and so on.)

A beer bottle or table leg when used as a weapon is treated as a light weapon as well...but that doesn't transform them 'into' weapons.

Since several appear confused a rundown:

Unarmed strikes do not have an offhand.
Basis: Why does this matter? Because off hand weapon strikes take 1/2 the str modifier, mainhand take the full str modifier.
Conclusion: unarmed strikes always take the full str modifier.

In the example of making an offhand unarmed strike, the fighter has attacked with a sword in their mainhand. If you are using flurry of blows and have a weapon (even an improvised weapon) as your MH attack you can do unarmed strikes to get the TWF OH attacks.

RAW .... 110% stupid

[andromax]

Just a thought, but you might be able to squeeze in a couple attacks from the table on page 34 of the Oriental Adventures.. depending on what your monk/"monk prestige class" BAB is.

[Pickford]

RAW .... 110% stupid

That's just because light weapon is part of how a weapon is wielded.

i.e. Light, One-handed, Two-handed.

as opposed to the skill proficiencies that may or may not be required:

i.e. simple, martial, exotic, shield

Of course anything that doesn't fall into those has no required proficiency. For example, creatures are, obviously, naturally proficient with natural weapons. There's no feat for that.

[animewatcha]

It's not. Unlike mongrelfolk and changeling, there's no clause in the elan that says "counts as a human for X." Heck, they're not even Humanoids, they're Aberrations.

Yet, races like half-orc and half-elf still count toward the 'count as human for pre-req' thing like the other two. As I have said, they might. Fluff has them as living pretty much as humans versus psionic and lifespan and sterf.

All up to interpretation. Heck, there is Radiant Servant of Pelor. Adaptation fluff says class is usable for any sun-based deity.

[LTwerewolf]

Yet, races like half-orc and half-elf still count toward the 'count as human for pre-req' thing like the other two. As I have said, they might. Fluff has them as living pretty much as humans versus psionic and lifespan and sterf.

All up to interpretation. Heck, there is Radiant Servant of Pelor. Adaptation fluff says class is usable for any sun-based deity.

Except they're still abberations, and not humanoid, which indicated a fairly large difference.

[Invader]

If you argue that a monk has 2 natural attacks why not argue that they have 2 kicks, 2 knees, 2 punches, 2 elbows, and a headbutt.

OMG monks have 9 natural attacks! :smallamused:

[Curmudgeon]

If you argue that a monk has 2 natural attacks why not argue that they have 2 kicks, 2 knees, 2 punches, 2 elbows, and a headbutt.

OMG monks have 9 natural attacks! :smallamused:
Why would you stop at 9? Hip checks, shoulder tackles, finger pokes, forearm "clothesline" hits, ...

[Invader]

Why would you stop at 9? Hip checks, shoulder tackles, finger pokes, forearm "clothesline" hits, ...

I didn't want it to be absurd of course...

[Curmudgeon]

I didn't want it to be absurd of course...

Oh, of course. :smallwink:

[JBento]

Yet, races like half-orc and half-elf still count toward the 'count as human for pre-req' thing like the other two. As I have said, they might. Fluff has them as living pretty much as humans versus psionic and lifespan and sterf.

All up to interpretation. Heck, there is Radiant Servant of Pelor. Adaptation fluff says class is usable for any sun-based deity.

That's because half-elves and half-orcs are actually half-human as well. Also, fluff also very clearly states that whatever happened to the elan before he was an elan means diddly-squat. It has no memories, no experience, no similar appearance, no nothing. Their thought patterns are so different from what they used to be that they're not even subject to stuff that only affects people's minds, like Charm/Dominate Person, by virtue of not being Humanoids anymore, but Aberrations.

Regardless, as you pointed out, half-elves and half-orcs STATE that thy count as humans for pre-reqs - no such allowance is made for elans, and therefore, they don't.

[Wings of Peace]

Oh, of course. :smallwink:

You guys are missing the important thing here. A monk uses their unarmed strike via parts of their -body-. This means they are -touching- the enemy. Ergo, A monk's unarmed strike is a touch attack.

[Pickford]

You guys are missing the important thing here. A monk uses their unarmed strike via parts of their -body-. This means they are -touching- the enemy. Ergo, A monk's unarmed strike is a touch attack.

So it's ethereal too?