What Tier is This?

[asnys]

I've been reading through FFG's School of Illusion, which I quite like. It has a "Devoted Illusionist" base class, intended (I assume) to be a bit closer to the 1e Illusionist - they get ZERO spells outside of the universal and illusion schools without spending feats, but a couple of very powerful abilities to soup up their illusions. I'm wondering what tier this would fall on, either as-is or with the additional house rule that shadow magic is not allowed.

The highlights of the class are:

As mentioned, NO non-illusion spells. They can spend a feat to cast an out-of-school spell, but it's one spell per feat.
No wizard bonus feats (not even Scribe Scroll) or familiar.
The illusion school is subdivided into nine subschools; at first level they pick one subspecialization in a subschool, and can convert memorized spells into spells of that subschool, the same way a cleric can turn a memorized spell into a cure spell. They get an extra subspecialization every ten levels.
At 2nd level they can add a free level of metamagic enhancement to an illusion spell without changing the spell level, plus an additional level every even level.
+1 save DC for all illusion spells every third level.

They get some other odds and ends but those are the big ones. I'm leaning towards tier 1 if they are allowed shadow magic, tier 2 or 3 if they aren't, but I'd appreciate others' opinions.

[rockdeworld]

Tier 1 regardless. At level 17 they get Wish, which is like Shadow Anything (except better because it's 100%). While in core barring shadow magic they can't use goodies like contingency early, they still get Simulacrum, which can do anything, Invisibility, which can solve encounters, Project Image, which can allow them to assault enemies in their living rooms from their own living rooms, and Color Spray, which again solves encounters at low levels. Outside core I can't even imagine it. It limits them a lot, but doesn't remove them from tier 1 status.

[Hunter Noventa]

Tier 2 I'd say, even with Shadow Magic. There are enough things that the powerful illusions don't affect due to being mind-affecting, that their capabilities can be limited against the right sort of enemies, regardless of preparation, as opposed to a full-on wizard.

[CTrees]

At 2nd level they can add a free level of metamagic enhancement to an illusion spell without changing the spell level, plus an additional level every even level.

Wait, so at 20th level they can add ten free levels of metamagic to an illusion spell? Even without the "my shadow_____ spells are 110% real" tricks... that's ridiculous, if accurate.

Also, what's the spell list? Is it "all wizard spells of the illusion school," or something set and more restrictive?

[Immabozo]

I am by no means an expert, but Wizard is tier 1 because he has the powerful spells AND the versatility to have the spell needed for a given situation and no limit to the spells in their spell book, thus why generalist wizards are, at least to some, considered better than specialist.

that is the only difference between sorcerer and wizard, putting wizard solidly in tier 1 and sorcerer solidly in tier 2.

Based off this, I would say max, tier 2. Even if it is the top of tier 2, it's still tier 2

[asnys]

Wait, so at 20th level they can add ten free levels of metamagic to an illusion spell? Even without the "my shadow_____ spells are 110% real" tricks... that's ridiculous, if accurate.

Also, what's the spell list? Is it "all wizard spells of the illusion school," or something set and more restrictive?

All wizard spells of the universal and illusion schools, plus a bunch more they made up for this supplement. I'm no master of optimization, but I rolled my eyes when I saw that ability.

[JaronK]

I can't be sure, but with Shadowcraft Mage this would be incredibly over the top.

JaronK

[Eldariel]

I'm playing a variant Beguiler with only Illusion-spell in a game currently and it's working out alright. Illusionists can cover all their bases though it takes a lot of creativity in some cases. But the Illusions get really useful and enemy will just be insanely confused. I'd say they're closer to Tier 3 than Tier 2 tho, without SCM, 'cause outside extremely high levels they merely get "awesome" tools. Well, aside from Simulacrum which is stupid good.

[ahenobarbi]

Of it self I'd say it's Tier 3 (it's easy to make non-shadows illusions useless). But combined with SCM it becomes crazy good (like casting 9th level spells from cantrip slot good).

[asnys]

Tier 1 regardless. At level 17 they get Wish, which is like Shadow Anything (except better because it's 100%). While in core barring shadow magic they can't use goodies like contingency early, they still get Simulacrum, which can do anything, Invisibility, which can solve encounters, Project Image, which can allow them to assault enemies in their living rooms from their own living rooms, and Color Spray, which again solves encounters at low levels. Outside core I can't even imagine it. It limits them a lot, but doesn't remove them from tier 1 status.

Doesn't Project Image require line of effect between you and the image at all times? Or is there someway around that?

[LTwerewolf]

Doesn't Project Image require line of effect between you and the image at all times? Or is there someway around that?

Scrying, but it's hardly a permanent solution like astral projection is.

[asnys]

I can't be sure, but with Shadowcraft Mage this would be incredibly over the top.

I really like the supplement - there are some good ideas in here - but it definitely illustrates the need for care in using third-party products. There's also a metamagic feat that adds 20% quasi-reality to any illusion (although still subject to Will save), stackable up to three times, and another that removes the mind-affecting descriptor from illusion spells. Those are definitely not happening.


Scrying, but it's hardly a permanent solution like astral projection is.

Line of effect goes through scrying? Huh. Thanks.

[LTwerewolf]

That's where the phrase "scry and fry" comes from.

[ahenobarbi]

That's where the phrase "scry and fry" comes from.
Wait, what? Only "detect chaos, detect evil, detect good, detect law, detect magic, message, read magic, and tongues" can operate through [greater] Scrying.

[tyckspoon]

That's where the phrase "scry and fry" comes from.

It actually refers to the combination of Scrying (or other means of remote viewing of a location) and Teleport; you scout out the desired target, find out what you can about him, and use Teleport effects to drop your fully-buffed and ready to fight party directly on top of whoever you want to destroy, bypassing the gauntlet of traps/minions/whatever that was supposed to weaken you and give the target time to get ready for you.

[urandom]

Tier 1 regardless. At level 17 they get Wish, which is like Shadow Anything (except better because it's 100%). While in core barring shadow magic they can't use goodies like contingency early, they still get Simulacrum, which can do anything, Invisibility, which can solve encounters, Project Image, which can allow them to assault enemies in their living rooms from their own living rooms, and Color Spray, which again solves encounters at low levels. Outside core I can't even imagine it. It limits them a lot, but doesn't remove them from tier 1 status.

Wish costs 5000 xp though. It's too expensive to use often.