What breaks E6?

[Postmodernist]

E6 is pretty tough to break, but what might massively unbalance it? Early entry shenanigans strike me as the obvious response. Im contemplating making a master of shrouds for an E6 game and worry that it might be too strong.

Anyone have extensive E6 experience and care to comment on what's too strong (Druid? Clericzilla? ToB classes?), what's too weak, and what is exactly right?

[ahenobarbi]

Pixies. [mandatory characters filler]

[Fouredged Sword]

Wild Cohort can get out of hand. I have heard of a group that everyone played druid and sorcerers with the ACF for an animal companion. Everyone took wild cohort. One of the sorcerers took planer touchstone for the kobold domain for trapfinding.

Lets just say that most E6 combat fails to account for the party having 8 wolves.

[Barsoom]

Loredrake Kobold Sorcerer gets 4th level spells. Combined with other tricks, 5th level.
Animal companions with EDL (Effective Druid Level) pumping tricks. 11 HD Lion for the win.

[SaintRidley]

I'm pretty sure you can still pull off some diplomancy shenanigans.

[subject42]

Warforged Artificers and Crusaders can be problematic in E6, just because of their impressive low-level durability.

Warlocks with Fell Flight and Eldritch Spear can also cause issues if large numbers of encounters occur out in the open. This is more an issue of game mechanics than power; they can just plink away forever from 300 feet in the air while the rest of the party sits around waiting for him to finish the job. This can get more noticeable if the warlock loads up on fey heritage feats for Damage Reduction.

[JaronK]

Anything that gets 4th level spells, really, unless you decide that fourth level spells are kinda like epic spells, so you can get 4th level spell slots but don't get to use them for anything but metamagic. That stops the whole above mentioned Loredrake Kobold shenanigans (there are other ways to do it too).

JaronK

[gorfnab]

Mystic Ranger (Drg 336) + Magical Training feat(PGtF) + Sword of the Arcane Order feat (CoV) + Simple Wildshape Ranger ACF (UA) + Wild Cohort feat = (At Level 6) Full BAB, 6D8 HD, 6 levels of 6+Int mod skills, 3rd level Ranger and Wizard spells, a pet, and Wildshaping. Basically covers all needs. You could take the Trapfinding ACF (DS) as well since you can pick up Track as a feat.

Beguiler 5/ Mage of the Arcane Order 1 - often more versatile and more survivable than Wizard 6.

[Norin]

Without any experience in E6 i would suggest something pretty simple:

Druid 6 with Natural Spell. :smallsmile:

Not worldshattering, but very versatile and quite powerful even without cheese.

[Postmodernist]

Many of these (Druids, lore drake kobolds) will threaten to break any game. While they're still appropriate, Im looking more at E6 specific issues. The mystic ranger is a good an surprising answer. What else? Early PrCs like church inquisitor or master specialists?

[JaronK]

Well, a Whirling Frenzy Lion Totem Barbarian kinda hits peak power at level 6, with their 3 base attacks on the charge. A nice Water Orc version, with Headlong Rush and Power Attack and Shock Trooper and Leap Attack can kill anything it charges. Is that what you mean?

JaronK

[8wGremlin]

Sha'ir (dragon compendium) so you should be safe, can enter mystic theurge by 4 level.

Due to sha'ir being both divine and arcane,, both caster level ups caapplt to it.
This gives 5 th level spells.

With the odd wording o it's spell selection it can use versatile spellcaster and get 6 th level spells!

[Amnestic]

I'm pretty sure Wizards can get access to Anima Mage via feats which will give them x levels of Binding plus 6 levels of Wizard casting. Perhaps not optimal, but it's essentially partial gestalt, so something to keep an eye on. Dunno how early you can bring this online though. Probably depends on race choice and whether flaws are allowed.

[JaronK]

With flaws, I think you could pull off a Human Wizard 2/Anima Mage 4 in E6 (you'll need three basically wasted feats to do this plus one metamagic of your choice). However, the really strong Anima Mage class feature is at 5, which you can't get to because of skill point restrictions. So... it's actually not that huge of a deal, unless you're messing about with Tainted Sorcerer (the primary disadvantage of that class disappears in E6). Wizard 2/Anima Mage 3/Tainted Sorcerer 1 would be devastatingly powerful, really.

JaronK

[nedz]

Warlock 6 is interesting because you can burn all of those supernumerary feats on Extra Invocation and have every Least Invocation.

I'm not sure it breaks the game, but those are solid feat picks.

You can pull the same trick with Dragonfire Adept 6 also.

[Erik Vale]

Extra Invocation requires access to lesser invocations, so your only looking at 4 least invocations and 1 lesser. [Unless you've found a differenct version.]

[Gullintanni]

Anything that gets 4th level spells, really, unless you decide that fourth level spells are kinda like epic spells, so you can get 4th level spell slots but don't get to use them for anything but metamagic. That stops the whole above mentioned Loredrake Kobold shenanigans (there are other ways to do it too).

JaronK

The groups I know resolve this and similar problems by simply taking the author's suggestion that 4th level spells and their ilk are the exclusive realm of powers beyond mortal capability.

Short of being a monster, having Divine Ranks, or Incantations (if you use them), magic above 3rd level simply doesn't exist, so even if you could gain the slots, there are no spells in existence that you could use to fill them.

[koboldish]

Not especially broken, but even unoptimized wizards are still playabe. The spammable feats are helpful. As a quick question, is it possible to get illusionist 3/shadowcraft mage 3 in e6? If so, how would that be possible?

[Alienist]

Short of being a monster, having Divine Ranks, or Incantations (if you use them), magic above 3rd level simply doesn't exist, so even if you could gain the slots, there are no spells in existence that you could use to fill them.

It is a very common misconception that Versatile Spellcaster gives you higher level slots, but it does not.

"Benefit
You can use two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you know that is one level higher. For example, a sorcerer with this feat can expend two 2nd-level spell slots to cast any 3rd-level spell he knows."

[The Glyphstone]

It is a very common misconception that Versatile Spellcaster gives you higher level slots, but it does not.

"Benefit
You can use two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you know that is one level higher. For example, a sorcerer with this feat can expend two 2nd-level spell slots to cast any 3rd-level spell he knows."

It's not a misconception, it's just a narrow corner case. Versatile Spellcaster gives higher level spells, but only for the specialist classes that automatically know every spell on their spell list - Warmages, Beguilers, and Dread Necromancers. So if a Sorcerer can figure out a way to get a 4th level Spell Known at level 6, he can only cast it via Versatile Spellcaster, but by default he will not know that spell.

[Kuulvheysoon]

It's not a misconception, it's just a narrow corner case. Versatile Spellcaster gives higher level spells, but only for the specialist classes that automatically know every spell on their spell list - Warmages, Beguilers, and Dread Necromancers. So if a Sorcerer can figure out a way to get a 4th level Spell Known at level 6, he can only cast it via Versatile Spellcaster, but by default he will not know that spell.

Unless he has the Heighten Spell feat.:smallbiggrin:

[nedz]

Extra Invocation requires access to lesser invocations, so your only looking at 4 least invocations and 1 lesser. [Unless you've found a different version.]

Both classes get Lesser Invocations at level 6.
With E6 you get further feats every 5,000 xp after 6th level.
You can spend these on Extra Invocation, as well as the standard level 6 feat.

[Alienist]

Not especially broken, but even unoptimized wizards are still playabe. The spammable feats are helpful.

As a quick question, is it possible to get illusionist 3/shadowcraft mage 3 in e6? If so, how would that be possible?

Wizards are interesting in this context, because their list of spells known will keep increasing, whereas a Sorcerer's is going to stay stagnant unless they blow lots of feats on Extra Spells, but that only gets them second level spells, not third.

A revision of the tier system might be in order. Remember that tier 2 can break the game in a couple of different ways, but tier 1 can break the game in lots of different ways. Is that definition even still relevant for E6? My understanding of E6 is that it implicitly comes with it a willingness to 'plug the holes' if any are found.

Or do we simply change the territory? Change what it means to be 'broken'? A lot of DMs might consider a melee character doing 100 damage in E6 to be 'broken'. Or Guidance of the Avatar might be 'broken' simply because it renders skill monkeys obsolete, and a big part of E6 is to prop up the third leg of the melee/magic/skills stool.

Another thing to note about E6 is caster level. There are a great number of ways to boost caster level, but the vast majority of them don't work unless you already have a caster level much higher than 6.

E.g. Create Magic Tattoo won't boost your caster level unless you already have a caster level of 13+, Ankh of Ascension requires Gate as a prerequisite, Bead of Karma requires Righteous Might as a prerequisite (etc).

----

Now Artificers, as written, break into the 4th level spells without any shenanigans at all.

Also, beyond a certain point XP becomes useless for levelling up, so there's no reason not to go hog wild with your crafting.

----

As for early entry into the Shadowcraft Mage PRC - you need a 4th level illusionist spell ... have you checked Warlock? See if any of their least powers qualifies? (It probably doesn't, but if it does it's only a one level dip)

[koboldish]

Thanks. I need to try E6 and think about some stuff now!

[Alienist]

Unless he has the Heighten Spell feat.:smallbiggrin:

That's still only going to give him a 3+1th level spell which he knows from the list of 3rd level spells that he knows.

E.g. if he knows Fireball and Fly, using Versatile Spellcaster will let him sacrifice two third level spell slots to cast a fourth level Fireball (which is only mostly pointless, it will fractionally increase the save DC, but it would not let him sacrifice two third level slots to cast Polymorph.

[Alienist]

It's not a misconception, it's just a narrow corner case. Versatile Spellcaster gives higher level spells, but only for the specialist classes that automatically know every spell on their spell list - Warmages, Beguilers, and Dread Necromancers. So if a Sorcerer can figure out a way to get a 4th level Spell Known at level 6, he can only cast it via Versatile Spellcaster, but by default he will not know that spell.

That in itself is a misconception.

Beguilers do not automatically know every spell on their class list.

"When you gain access to a new level of spells, you automatically know all the spells for that level on the beguiler's spell list"

The spells that they know are clearly constrained by their levelling up process.

Versatile Spellcaster won't help you there, it does not give you access to new levels of spells.

BTW: I've had a very careful look through the SRD for the definition of access in relation to casting.

There are three meanings:
(1) wizards requiring access to their spell book to learn spells
(2) access to spells (e.g. granted by domains or prestige classes)
(3) levelling up sometimes grants access to new spell levels

#1 we can ignore for the purpose of Versatile Spellcaster
#2 simply appears to be a synonym for "add these spells to your class list"

NB: yes, this means Sorcs get shafted by the Mother Cyst, since 'access' only gets the spells added to their class list and they still need to spend spells known to know them.

#3 is a very well defined process that is strongly linked to the various class charts that show which slots you get at each level.

NB: this is where I think the confusion comes in - slots are very strongly tied to access to spells, so people naturally assume that if they can somehow get a higher level spell slot, they can get access to that level of spells. And in their eagerness to seek out ways of doing this they trip over the wording of Versatile Spellcaster, and think to themselves, well, it must give me a higher slot.

Hence why I addressed simply the fact that it never says that it gives you another slot. (And my original assertion still stands. Prove me wrong, show me where it says in Versatile Spellcaster that it gives you a slot. It's okay, I'll wait)

I find your comment about the Sorcerer knowing a 4th level spell at 6th level interesting. Would you care to give any examples? NB: things like Mother Cyst won't help, they give access to spells (e.g. add them to the class list) but not knowledge of spells.

AFAIK the only way to break the level dependency of access to a particular level of spells is with Precocious Apprentice, everything else is simply wishful thinking.

Warmage:
"When a warmage gains access to a new level of spells, he automatically knows all the spells for that level listed on the warmage's spell list."

Again the same wording, and again Versatile Spellcaster isn't going to help.

Dread Necromancer:
"When a dread necromancer gains access to a new level of spells, she automatically knows all the spells for that level given on the dread necromancer's spell list."

[Gullintanni]

Now Artificers, as written, break into the 4th level spells without any shenanigans at all.

Also, beyond a certain point XP becomes useless for levelling up, so there's no reason not to go hog wild with your crafting.


FWIW, as I said above, using one default method of play for E6, Level 4 spells simply don't exist so the Artificer still doesn't get them. They're still a very powerful class in E6 though. Arguably the most powerful.

[Archmage1]

The other side
Unbalancing happens two ways.
Players have insane builds, players have terrible builds.

Just saying, but taking say, commoner/truenamer might not be a likely choice, but it would unbalance things somewhat.

[Alienist]

So if a Sorcerer can figure out a way to get a 4th level Spell Known at level 6, he can only cast it via Versatile Spellcaster, but by default he will not know that spell.

Turns out, there's a rule for that:

"If you’re a bard or sorcerer, you can select any spell you know, provided you are capable of casting spells of that level or higher."

(From 'Casting a spell')

[Alienist]

The other side
Unbalancing happens two ways.
Players have insane builds, players have terrible builds.

Just saying, but taking say, commoner/truenamer might not be a likely choice, but it would unbalance things somewhat.

I'm going to assume that you're putting Truenamer up as a terrible build. Just for novelty's sake, I'm going to take the contrarian position.

Truenamer may not be a good CLASS, but E6 Truenamer is not necessarily a bad BUILD.

Throwing lots of feats makes the Truenamer better, not worse.

First: the DCs

15 + 2xMonster CR

Assume for the sake of argument that the monster's CR is 10. We need to hit 35s.

Skill Ranks: 9*
Intelligence modifier: +5
Amulet of the silver tongue: +5
Skill focus: +3
Utterance of the make my skill rolls go further mcjigger: +5

*Might be able to squeeze a couple more points out of this in E6? (If so, then double the amulet of the silver tongue bonus to +10)

Without any further modification, we're rolling 37.5s

That means that without even trying we can cast each offensive utterance twice a day.**

(** jumps to five times per day with even one more rank in Truespeak)

Now that's offensive ones, cast on the bad guys, what about defensive ones, cast on our allies? The CR will be 6, so we need to hit a DC of 22, and we're rolling 37.5s, so we should be able to comfortably cast our defensive utterances 8+ times per day.

Concealment on an Ally 8x per day? Is that bad? How? Do we have some new definition of bad that I was unaware of?

Fast healing 1 for 5 rounds 8x per day, combined with
Fast healing 3 for 5 rounds 8x per day, combined with
Fast healing 5 for 5 rounds 8x per day ...

That's 360 hit points worth of healing or day at level 6. Is that bad? (etc)

Oh wait, my bad, 6 out of each of those 8 were extended, for an additional 270 hit points of healing. 630 hit points worth of healing, per day. IS THAT BAD???

If you can get an extra rank in Truespeak, then that number probably jumps to over 1000 hit points of healing every day. You're welcome.

To be honest, I'm not even sure what the DC of the Lexicon of the Crafted tool utterances is. What's the CR of the weapon you cast Keen Edge on?

But hey, assume 8x each for them too (might be as high as 14x each)
So eight shots per day of Fortification and Keen

It's a shame that you don't get second level lexicons of the crafted tool (they don't kick in until level 7, but might make a 'capstone' to the class)

Here's a list of other stuff you can be doing 8x per day each:
Ally gains +1 AC
Freedom of Movement
Ally gains +2 to hit bonus
Ally gains ignore concealment with ranged attacks
Ally gains protection from arrows***
Ally gains +10 to a knowledge**** or bluff check***
Ally gains blind fighting feat
Ally gains concealment
Ally can cast spells silently
Ally can move 20 feet faster and run up walls
Ally's next weapon damage gets +10
Ally gets a free attack

***Not earth shattering I know, but this might actually be useful in E6

Now, I'm no expert in E6, but the third level utterances all look kick ass. Sadly, you only get one of them.

If you don't want to be the most amazing healer in the history of D&D there are still some good options:

Energy resistance 10
Celestial template
Fly
Haste
Invisibility


Sadly, that's the point where bad class design sticks in the craw. All Truenamers are going to look pretty much the same in E6, except for that 3rd level utterance.


NB: if you use certain E6 only feats, your ranks in truenaming skill can go to 11, which means you can make the better version of the amulet of the silver tongue, which means that you should be able to get off each offensive utterance 5x per day, and each defensive utterance at least 10x per day, with minimal optimisation.

In summary, as an E6 truenamer you should NEVER run out of useful things to do. Long after the wizards and the clerics have tapped out, you are still going, round after round after round.

You are the energizer bunny of E6 spellcasters.

(The Warlock is the fruity pebbles hippy dippy solar powered sustainable energy tofu eating spellcaster in E6)

----

I want to run the numbers again. Assume I'm only healing myself, selfish $#^#^$# that I am. Using Word of Nurturing, Lesser for out of combat healing.

True speak: 11 ranks
Amulet of the silver tongue: +10
Intelligence 20: +5
Skill focus: +3
Utterance of bonuses: +5
Using a truename: -2
It's my true name: +4

This is +36 before even rolling. Now, I'm going to be extending it, and let's say for some reason that I drop off the utterance of bonuses.

I need to hit a DC of 32 with a bonus of +31.
Even after I've done this successfully 8 times, I can keep going, I'll be at +31 vs a DC of 48... I need to roll 17 or higher.

I can safely keep trying this, the DC goes up per success, not per attempt.

So I can extend it on myself 9 times. After that I'll use the bonus utterance for another 3 (the bonus utterance will itself be extended, so that's ten tries to roll a 14 or higher.

And after that I can do it twice more without extending it. For a total of 14 times. Nice.

The amount of healing is 390 hit points. For a second level spell. The more I look at this, the more convinced I am that it will be a very difficult task to build a better support character in E6 than the Truenamer.

[Waddacku]

The bloodline feats in Dragon Compendium explicitly add spells known, so they're usable with Versatile Spellcaster.

[Socratov]

I agree with the notion of warlocks, yes they do lose some damage (though at the start they aren't really that far behind), but think about the debuffs... abilityfocus(EB) and you are well under way of being seriously scary (and flying as well). even worse: decieve item: take 10 on UMD, powerful much? Then there is the fact that Eldritch spear is still bad (no spot in class), but how about eldritch Glaive? Reach+fly+intelligent positioning=all the AoO's you can want (glaive is there for a whole round and enables AoO's). And unless the enemy is flying (which they only should just do since flight is a lvl 3 spell) they can do it all day without problem not to forget as somebody pointed out the fey/fiend heritage fiends cranking up various sla's, defenses, and other nasty surprises. Then there is the detect magic at will (!) and the fact that nothing in the form of DR can inhibit you.

but what about SR? Well 2 feats and you get +6 on casterlevel checks to overcome it. and SR should be rare anyway.

I would love to see a spellthief with the masterspellthief feat and a level of wizard or some other class. I really think it's at the pinnacle (especially considering craven)... whatever the enemy has he can get it.

[Alienist]

I agree with the notion of warlocks, yes they do lose some damage (though at the start they aren't really that far behind), but think about the debuffs... abilityfocus(EB) and you are well under way of being seriously scary (and flying as well).

Just throwing this out as a thought experiment: would The Dead Walk actually be better than Fell Flight?

Do we only like flying because of Flyby Attack? (Some DM's don't allow it to give a second standard action)

Can we get flying from other sources? (E.g. magic items)

Hmm... I think I sense an inherent contradiction, I'm looking at The Dead Walk as a way to skip the material component cost (e.g. the group focuses fire on one target, then the Warlock raises that target for six minutes (enough for at least two combats in a normal dungeon?), shifting the balance of power). So I'm cheaping out on the material components, but happy to splurge on magic items?

(There's a consumables vs non-consumables dichotomy wrapped up in there somewhere as well)

[Lonely Tylenol]

Pixie Warlock explicitly breaks E6, and only E6, if you're playing with the Level Adjustment guidelines for E6. At this point, you are only using the base ability modifiers on the creature (affixed to all 8s), but the adjustments are good to every stat except STR (and CON, since there are just no adjustments at all). Small size with good DEX and even a tinge of natural armor (important only because it's a base value that can be enhanced with spells), DR10/cold iron, and SR 15+level make for a set of powerful defenses for E6. In addition, you get an innate fly speed, constant Greater Invisibility, a host of good spell-like abilities (spring for Otto's Irresistible Dance if it costs you nothing extra), two bonus feats, bonuses to every perception skill, and low-light vision. Now, you can basically pick the most broken general invocation you can get a hold of for a lesser invocation, because you don't need flight or invisibility (covered by the base race), and shapes and essences can be covered by rods. For most, this will probably mean The Dead Walk. Extra feats after 6th trivialize Warlock's least invocations (you should have See the Unseen, Beguiling Influence, Baleful Utterance, and Entropic Warding in general, but All-Seeing Eyes, Dark One's Own Luck, Otherworldly Whispers, Eldritch Spear and Darkness are all suitable picks). Anything that a careful selection of powers won't cover is easily met by Use Magic Device (which Warlocks can take 10 in), and later Imbue Item as a capstone feat. Mortalbane and Maximize Spell-Like Ability both keep your damage relevant if you wanted that to matter, but for the most part, you're probably going to be taking advantage of your crazy social bonuses and doing basically everything (but this is late epic).

Saint also pretty much explicitly breaks E6. In addition to a number of other crazy bonuses, Saint gets, at will and toggle-able as a free action, the ability to cast a double-range Magic Circle Against Evil and Lesser Globe of Invulnerability. They also get a host of other great resistances and abilities, such as fast healing that scales with Hit Dice (which will never scale for you), DR, resistances and immunities to almost all energy types, poison, and petrification, save DC boosts, good ability bumps, spell-like abilities... The list goes on. If you're, say, a Vow of Peace Cleric, you are just literally going to shut down everything that tries to get to you; anyone that tries to strike you in melee needs to make three (!) saves to avoid being calmed (one from Vow of Peace's Calm Emotions-like effect, one from Sanctuary and one from Calm Emotions itself... Unless the two don't stack, in which case, just two saves, although both at +6 over whatever they would normally be), has to beat your crazy AC (remember: AC is still relevant in E6) and DR, and then the weapon has to make a Fortitude save or shatter against you. Ranged attackers don't have to make the saves, but the arrows may still shatter against your skin (and they have problems beating DR anyway). Third-level or lower spells are defeated outright by Lesser Globe of Invulnerability. And all of this happens after you fail to talk them out of it (you won't, because of your crazy Diplomacy bonuses). On top of that, you are a full-casting Cleric, have 6+INT skills (you have no need for a martial focus), and can basically trivialize everything an E6 character could do (but if you decide to be a Saintly Vow of Peace anything else, you are still exceedingly powerful). The only creature that could reasonably bring down a Saintly Cleric, really, is a Pixie Warlock.

Either of these characters, the Mystic Ranger, the Dragonwrought + Shenanigans Kobold Sorcerer-Wizard (if ruled to work in your game; I refuse to wade into that debate), or any Artificer could easily break a game wide open if played to this extent. Any one of them could be a RAW-legal campaign-ending BBEG without specific E6 help (although they each flourish in E6). Combine them and... /shudder

[Postmodernist]

Excellent responses, everyone, Loredrake sidebar debate notwithstanding.

Sounds largely like E6 breaks under similar conditions as D&D in general: Animal Companion issues are a lot like Leadership feat problems, early entry issues remain the same, etc. The other issue is that certain things hit their sweet spots around level 6: certain melee characters, warlocks, etc.

Moving on, what really works in E6? By "works," I mean seems to function at the intended power level, balancing gaming challenge and play power level.

[Fouredged Sword]

Tome of Battle functions fantasticly. The powers never reach the level of silliness that you see in high level play that makes non-magical characters seem unreal, but it maintains it's versatility and use. Also the martial study feat functions very well as a epic feat for any class that gets into melee.

The tier three casters all function well. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necro, ect. They each feel interesting and fill their specialty.

Duskblade works wonderfully. An argument can also be made for duskblade 3/ spellthief 3. You get into melee, steal spells, and cast them right back into the target with your next attack.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Moving on, what really works in E6? By "works," I mean seems to function at the intended power level, balancing gaming challenge and play power level.

Warlocks that aren't also Pixies (flight isn't broken when it's your only trick, and invisibility isn't broken, even at-will, when it isn't greater, but a Warlock still does have staying power and survivability at 6th level). Mystic Rangers that don't take Sword of the Arcane order or Wildshape variant, or Rangers who take Sword of the Arcane Order and/or Wildshape variant but aren't Mystic (personally, I am of the mind that either Wildshape or Mystic is all that is necessary to give a Ranger a competitive niche in E6... You can even go with both, but Sword of the Arcane Order is overkill if you mean for it to function at "intended power level, balancing gaming challenge and play power level"). Clerics that don't DMM:Persist all the things (or who do DMM:Persist, but without the things that make it clearly abusive, like Nightsticks, which are easy to rule out if you abide by and enforce the magic item restriction, as it's a CL10 item). Sorcerers who are not also Venerable Dragonwrought Spellhoarding Loredrake ... Kobolds (they are still full-casters, and while their limited spells known forces them to specialize, they still have access to all of the best spell list in the game, and can correct a lack of spells known with feats). Among the things previously defined as broken by myself or others.

Among things that aren't normally broken:
The Tome of Battle classes are all strong at all levels of play in E6. You cannot go wrong by choosing any of the three; literally, you will remain relevant most of the time even if you were to choose your maneuvers known by throwing darts at a board. At the same time, nothing the classes do is broken in E6 (I guess Warblades can do damage really well, but usually only in a very niche fashion, and with a considerable deal of feat investiture). The classes are very high-floor, low-ceiling, and even make powerful dips, especially at 5th or 6th level (in fact, a one-level dip in Warblade can fix basically any failing build with the right maneuver selection).

Meldshapers hit their stride at 6th level (excepting the Soulborn, which is crap at all levels). A single-classed Incarnate or Totemist gets its second chakra bind at 6th level, and the essentia capacity of a character also increases at 6th level as well (3 to an Incarnate or a soulmeld bound to the Totemist's totem chakra; 2 to the Totemist otherwise). An Incarnate/Totemist is actually better than the sum of its parts (as has recently been pointed out to me), but never game-breaking. What's more, the Totemist scales best with feats, and there is one commodity that you get in spades once you hit 6th level, and that is feats.

The Psionic classes that matter (Psion, Ardent, Psychic Warrior, Wilder, Lurk, and Psychic Rogue) all fit more or less within the expected power level, although it's easy to argue (and one would be right in doing so) that the Psychic Warrior and especially the Lurk suffer for stopping at 6th level (they clearly gain a big boost at 7th level). Any shortcomings these classes have at these levels (the Wilder's lack of known powers, the PsyWar, Lurk and Psychic Rogue's lack of daily power points) are corrected most easily through feats, and you get those in spades.

Factotums are incredibly good in E6, being that they are a very front-loaded class designed to do everything. By sixth level, an INT-focused Factotum (read: all Factotums) has maxed eight or so skills they plan on getting a lot of mileage out of, and spread tons of extra skill points around so that they may trivially add their Factotum level to any check that needs it; with a little optimization (just a titch), the Factotum is clearing most of the lesser Epic skill checks when they really need to, and is easily doing almost anything a normal character is expected to do with skills on a 10 (and often on a 1), by which I mean DC 15-20 checks. Additionally, Factotums get the best part of obscure skills from faraway lists, like Iaijutsu Focus and Autohypnosis, such as the ability to automatically stabilize, deal bonus damage, endure elements, remember things, and so on. INT can be applied to hit, damage, AC, and saves, and is applied to all STR- and DEX-based checks (all skill checks, initiative, trip checks). Sneak Attack, spellcasting (up to 2nd-level spells), and healing/turning undead are all quasi-class features for the Factotum, and they can do all of them decently enough to consider them useful additions to the Factotum's repertoire. The only thing that inhibits a Factotum is their tiny Inspiration pool (without Inspiration, they are a skill monkey with a couple parlor tricks), but Font of Inspiration, a feat, gives inspiration points quadratically. Usually five to seven iterations of the feat are enough to allow a Factotum to exist in a perpetual state of nova in a 20th-level game, allowing you to add your INT to basically everything and have more everything thanks to Cunning Surge, but in E6, you can affix that to a sixth level character shortly after you hit epic... And then, you can begin specializing. Best part of all, everything I've described here happens in the first five levels: in fact, the sixth level of Factotum is a dead level, which means you can PrC out at this point, unless the DM waves "Cunning Surge" under the single-classed Factotum's nose as a capstone. For the Factotum that literally wants to do everything, I recommend Chameleon for second-level arcane and divine spellcasting (toggle as you wish) or other things, at the cost of being a Human or Changeling (both of which are such terrible races for a Factotum) and delaying your Font of Inspiration by one iteration.

The fixed-list casters (Beguiler, Dread Necromancer and Warmage) take off running at first level and don't stop. Their lists are limited in scope somewhat, but they have a huge list of spells known each at sixth level, dwarfing every other spontaneous caster or caster analogue in the game. For reference, counting cantrips and orisons, a Sorcerer has 14 spells known (7 0-level, 4 1st, 2 2nd, 1 3rd), a Favored Soul has 19 (7 0-level, 5 1st, 4 2nd, 3 3rd), and a Psion has 13 powers known at 6th level (of any level it can cast, though no more than 8 can be 2nd-level, and no more than 4 of those 8 can be 3rd-level); compare this to a Dread Necromancer, which has 32 (12 1st-level, some of which are captrips, 12 2nd-level, 8 3rd-level); a Warmage, which has 34 (13 1st, 11 2nd, 10 3rd); and a Beguiler, which has 60 (7 0-level, 14 1st, 19 2nd, 20 3rd). On top of that, all three of these classes have a better chassis (d6 Hit Dice, ability to cast in light armor, better skill lists, Beguiler's 6+INT skill points) and actual class features (which probably rank Dread Necromancer > Beguiler >>> Warmage, in order of quality). These spell lists basically only have spells that fit a particular niche (Warmage is blasty, Beguiler is sneaky, Dread Necromancer deals with negative energy and undeath), but if you're a Beguiler who just wants to blow things up, Arcane Disciple adds an entire domain to your spell list, and you automatically know all spells on your spell list. Barring 9th-level spellcasting cheese, this is still sets of three spells from a much wider list than your standard class list (narrowed down, admittedly, by the restriction that they be domains of the same deity, so choose your deity carefully), which basically amounts to three instances of the capstone feat Extra Spell Known, with some caveats, but helps greatly in expanding your list. These are your versatile catch-all casters (being able to cast any of several dozen spells spontaneously), basically making the Sorcerer the Fighter of full casting (needs to specialize in order to shine).

Speaking of Fighters, full BAB classes can actually do alright in this sort of environment. The Fighter's shtick--having lots of feats--is seriously devalued by the fact that everybody has lots of feats, so the Fighter has to try harder to hit his stride, but at the same time, things don't become too incredibly difficult for the Fighter to kill: their shtick isn't rendered totally irrelevant by the power creep of higher levels, so if the Fighter specializes, they can stay relevant. A second iterative attack (exclusive to other full BAB classes) helps here. The Ranger, Swashbuckler, Paladin, Soulborn, and their ilk don't really have much on offer here, but Duskblades and Barbarians are sitting pretty comfortable at this level (just take Extra Rage for the Barbarian at some point; you're not starved for feats).

Skill monkeys also benefit quite a bit from E6's cap, because you get to a point where you can reasonably do most (if not all) of the things a skill monkey is supposed to do, most (if not all) of the time; with a little effort, you can do the really cool things you can do with Epic skill checks (like making a 10-foot step, or standing as a free action, both via Tumble), but at the same time, you're not at a point where skills are totally irrelevant: your shtick is still needed because full casters can't trivialize everything that you do with spells (and the things that they can trivialize can be measured, as an investiture of their daily resources, in pie slices. No, not slivers; actual pie slices), and you're the only person who can do a lot of them. This benefits Psychic Rogues, Factotums, Beguilers, Scouts and Rogues most greatly (the classes with 8+INT skill points, or 6+INT and INT synergy), but Rangers, Spellthieves, Experts, and the like still have a niche here, even if they aren't particularly strong elsewhere.

Full casters not mentioned above (such as the Druid, Favored Soul, Wu Jen, Shugenja, Spirit Shaman, et al.) are still full casters. Of these, the Druid is still particularly strong, thanks to Wild Shape to supplement access to third-level spells, but not game-breaking.

Basically, the much shorter list would be things that don't hit full stride by sixth level, which would include the Monk (except as a dip, such as for a Tashalatora build), the aura classes (Divine Mind, Dragon Shaman and Marshal, although it can be easily argued that Dragon Shaman is at least competent at all levels in E6 thanks to being frontloaded and able to grab lots of breath weapon support via feats and items), the Soulknife (it wants to be 7th level, but not even that fixes it), the Shadowcaster (which desperately wants to be 7th level), the Soulborn (nothing can fix this class), the Paladin and CW Samurai (the only Paladin really worth mentioning is a Prestige Paladin); the single-classed Swashbuckler (Daring Outlaw builds are still good), the Warrior, Commoner and Aristocrat (Adepts and Experts are still good, though strictly inferior to other alternatives), and... I'm sure there are a few more, but you get the basic gist of it.

[Scow2]

Speaking of Fighters, full BAB classes can actually do alright in this sort of environment. The Fighter's shtick--having lots of feats--is seriously devalued by the fact that everybody has lots of feats, so the Fighter has to try harder to hit his stride, but at the same time, things don't become too incredibly difficult for the Fighter to kill: their shtick isn't rendered totally irrelevant by the power creep of higher levels, so if the Fighter specializes, they can stay relevant.

They don't need to specialize too much to remain viable - Full-class fighters get a 'capstone' feat that boosts their BAB to +8, allowing them a much larger exclusive-access feat-pool to offset the devaluing of individual feats.

I'd expect Paladin to be more useful than you give it credit for, since it gets all its class abilities.

[Alienist]

Fighter is more broken* in E6 than in normal D&D, because everyone gets his schtick. A couple of free feats? We care deeply because ... oh look, feats are being given away like candy! Huzzah!

*broken bad, not broken good

E6 doesn't give you some of the whacky variety of regular 3rd ed, with all the prestige classes, people trying to get dual 9s (or even triple 9s!) and so forth.

E6 is more balanced than regular D&D. But then, so is 4th.

With relation to ToB, I think you might need to be careful, as there are feats which allow you to buy extra maneuvers and stances, it could get out of hand.

E6 is better for the classical 'King's Quest' medieval style of D&D. If the players give the monarch the middle finger, they're actually going to take damage fighting their way out of the castle, and they're unlikely to say "I'm bored, I Meteor Swarm the Duke"

[Scow2]

Fighter is more broken* in E6 than in normal D&D, because everyone gets his schtick. A couple of free feats? We care deeply because ... oh look, feats are being given away like candy! Huzzah! But non-fighters don't get access to Fighter-exclusive feats (Which don't get trivialized as readily as they do in normal play), and they cap their BAB at +6, while fighters can use the whole host of feats that become available at BAB +8.


With relation to ToB, I think you might need to be careful, as there are feats which allow you to buy extra maneuvers and stances, it could get out of hand. They have their own caps, and none of them increase the number of maneuvers a class can ready at a time.

[Alienist]

The tier three casters all function well. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necro, ect. They each feel interesting and fill their specialty.

Duskblade works wonderfully. An argument can also be made for duskblade 3/ spellthief 3. You get into melee, steal spells, and cast them right back into the target with your next attack.

You can only steal first level spells and cantrips, which is a shame.

I meant to say that even if you ignore the line in the SRD which specifically outlaws it*, allowing Beguiler, Dread Necro and Warmage to access 4th level spells wouldn't (in my opinion) be game breaking, and might actually add some flavour to the game.

*Eeet ees only one line of RAW**, eet ees waffa theen.

**Actually, it's backed up by a huge amount of other RAW, but hey, if people were willing to ignore all of that, what is one more line, even if it explicitly says it doesn't work?

[Lonely Tylenol]

They don't need to specialize too much to remain viable - Full-class fighters get a 'capstone' feat that boosts their BAB to +8, allowing them a much larger exclusive-access feat-pool to offset the devaluing of individual feats.

Here's a list of all the feats classified as "Fighter Bonus Feats" I could find which are opened up by that capstone feat:
Fiery Fist (prereqs Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, DEX 13, WIS 13, base attack bonus +8)
Fiery Ki Defense (prereqs Fiery Fist, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, DEX 13, WIS 13, base attack bonus +8)
Greater Weapon Focus (prereqs Weapon Focus with selected weapon, fighter level 8th, Proficiency with selected weapon)
Improved Critical (prereqs base attack bonus +8, Proficient with weapon)
Ki Blast (prereqs Fiery Fist, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, DEX 13, WIS 13, Base attack bonus +8
Melee Weapon Mastery (prereqs Weapon Specialization, Weapon Focus, Base attack bonus +8, Weapon Proficiency with selected weapon)
Ranged Weapon Mastery (prereqs base attack bonus +8, Proficiency with selected weapon, Weapon Focus with selected weapon, Weapon Specialization with selected weapon)
Stunning Fist (prereqs Improved Unarmed Strike, DEX 13, WIS 13, base attack bonus +8)

In sum: You get access to Stunning Fist and a couple of the Stunning Fist feats (but you can only use Stunning Fist 1/day, so you'll never be able to use Ki Blast, and you'll get a combined one total daily use out of Stunning Fist, Fiery Fist and Fiery Ki Defense, for which you've spent four five feats--how dare I forget Improved Unarmed Strike--and good ability scores in two dump stats), plus the Weapon Focus line extended out to Greater Weapon Focus (which is bad), Improved Critical (which is good in niche builds that benefit from several attacks, such as the crit-fisher, but I can't speak to their viability in E6), and Weapon Mastery (which is legitimately good). Of the entire selection, I would have to say only Improved Critical and Weapon Mastery are even worth taking in a vacuum, and I'd raise my eyebrow at the thought of a feat tax in order to take them (not to mention the feat chain necessary to get Weapon Mastery anyway). I'd hardly call what Martial Veteran does "allowing them a much larger exclusive-access feat pool", especially since the entire line of Stunning Fist feats is available to Monks as bonus feats (Stunning Fist at 1, Fiery Fist at 2, Fiery Ki Defense and Ki Blast at 6).


I'd expect Paladin to be more useful than you give it credit for, since it gets all its class abilities.

I'd be inclined to agree, if the Paladin's class abilities weren't so underwhelming - Turn Undead as a much weaker Cleric (which can't be used to fuel all that much because of a lack of domains or spells, and an underwhelming list of other options), two Smite uses per day (and Smite itself being underwhelming), a mount that is marginally better than a trained warhorse but gives you a month's worth of to-hit penalties if it dies (note: while the horse is better, there's nothing you can do with it that you can't do with any other horse, except maybe get it through an extremely narrow passageway), the ability to remove disease 1/week (a level later than the Cleric learns it), divine health (which is meh), aura of courage (which is okay), and divine grace (which is pretty good). And two 1st-level spells per day. In higher-level games, the Paladin's well-supported spell list is its saving grace for a list of very poor class features--but you don't even get that, so in E6, the Paladin is either two levels long (Divine Grace and don't look back), or the tail end of a martial Cleric build as Prestige Paladin (Cleric 4/Crusader 1/Prestige Paladin 1 getting access to third-level Paladin spells and all).

EDIT:


But non-fighters don't get access to Fighter-exclusive feats (Which don't get trivialized as readily as they do in normal play), and they cap their BAB at +6, while fighters can use the whole host of feats that become available at BAB +8.

The only Fighter-exclusive feats I can think of that the Fighter gets access to in E6 are Weapon Focus Weapon Specialization, and (with Martial Veteran) Greater Weapon Focus, and the Warblade gains access to two one of them (Weapon Focus at 3rd and Weapon Specialization at 6th), and does both of them better than the Fighter ever could (because he can meditate over his weapons and change the beneficiaries of the feats on a whim).

But most Warblades wouldn't want it anyway, because anything that they were trying to do with Weapon Specialization (which is more damage), they could do better by picking any number of other, better feats, and doing it with that.

[JaronK]

It should be mentioned that Clerics can raise armies of the dead (due to getting Animate Dead as a 3rd level spell, and the Deathbound Domain giving them up to 6*CL undead in one casting). That's something almost no one else can do (Death Masters can get undead, and quicker, but not as much). And with the Corpse Crafter line of feats, those guys can be a real powerhouse. A smart Cleric can store bodies in an Enveloping Pit or similar, then raise a bunch of really good ones in a Desecrated area... even without items (other than an evil shrine to desecrate) a Cleric with Deathbound and Necromancy domains could create 28HD in undead in a single casting. With the Corpse Crafter line, that could be a 10 headed zombie hydra and 8HD in other stuff, and the hydra could have 105hp which in E6 is amazing.

So... that's one thing to consider.

JaronK

[Scow2]

<snip>

A paladin becomes a lot stronger and more useful with bonus feats that allow him to do more with his smite - including getting Extra Smiting. He can replace his magical bicycle with a more useful ACF, such as the spirit from Dungeonscape.

The Weapon Specialization and Weapon Focus feats for fighters aren't as bad in e6 because the small bonuses aren't quite as trivialized as they are in higher-level play.

[tyckspoon]

*Eeet ees only one line of RAW**, eet ees waffa theen.

**Actually, it's backed up by a huge amount of other RAW, but hey, if people were willing to ignore all of that, what is one more line, even if it explicitly says it doesn't work?

I'm rather curious what that RAW is, considering casters in the style of Beguilers and Dread Necros were not even thought of in the SRD material- I would guess most people 'ignore' it because the specific language of how spontaneous limited-list casters work lets it work regardless of the base rule you have in mind. Still, PM me? I suspect posting it in open thread is going to transform the thread into a giant argument about it.

[Lonely Tylenol]

A paladin becomes a lot stronger and more useful with bonus feats that allow him to do more with his smite - including getting Extra Smiting. He can replace his magical bicycle with a more useful ACF, such as the spirit from Dungeonscape.

ACFs in general do make the Paladin better (in particular, the ones in Dungeonscape and Complete Champion, but my personal favorite is still the Drakkensteed in Dragon Magic), as does the Dragon Magazine feat Serenity. That said, there is still a huge gap to be bridged here for the Paladin and, say, the Tome of Battle classes, or the Barbarian, or even the Fighter and Ranger. The thing is, the only thing the Paladin contributes to his offensive combat usefulness is Smite and spells, but he gets both in such small numbers that they aren't even significant, and Smite just isn't that good anyway (like, not worth the feat expenditure at all); a Paladin that wants to contribute to combat is probably going have to do so through feats, but with a grand total of zero feats to contribute to any combat style or method, he has to do so with the standard feat loadout, and is thus the sum of his smites better than a Warrior of the same level. At the same time, the Paladin isn't contributing much of anything in the way of skillfulness, as he has 2+INT skills per level and no INT synergy (and a mounted Paladin of any variety is maxing Ride, which might be his only skill at all). The only thing a Paladin does well in E6 is not fail saves; between divine grace and health and aura of courage, your Paladin will be relatively safe from harm against save effects, if you pumped yet another attribute (or took Serenity). Favored Enemy may not be stellar, but at least the Ranger has 6+INT skill points, combat styles, and an animal companion that (while not as good outright as the mount) has more utility. Also, Swift Hunter.


The Weapon Specialization and Weapon Focus feats for fighters aren't as bad in e6 because the small bonuses aren't quite as trivialized as they are in higher-level play.

They're not as bad, but not as bad does not equal good. A polished turd is still a turd.

[Postmodernist]

It should be mentioned that Clerics can raise armies of the dead (due to getting Animate Dead as a 3rd level spell, and the Deathbound Domain giving them up to 6*CL undead in one casting). That's something almost no one else can do (Death Masters can get undead, and quicker, but not as much). And with the Corpse Crafter line of feats, those guys can be a real powerhouse. A smart Cleric can store bodies in an Enveloping Pit or similar, then raise a bunch of really good ones in a Desecrated area... even without items (other than an evil shrine to desecrate) a Cleric with Deathbound and Necromancy domains could create 28HD in undead in a single casting. With the Corpse Crafter line, that could be a 10 headed zombie hydra and 8HD in other stuff, and the hydra could have 105hp which in E6 is amazing.

So... that's one thing to consider.

JaronK

This is something I'll likely be doing in an upcoming E6 bad guy campaign. Cleric 3/Church Inquisitor (fluff requirements waived)1/Master of Shrouds 2. Not indestructible or perfect, but high enough powered to function. 3rd level spells, makes lots of monsters.

To everyone: excellent comments. Thanks for the incredible input. Loredrake argument notwithstanding.

[Fouredged Sword]

There is a strong argument for the effectiveness of PRC paladin and ranger in E6 as well, compared to their base class. PRC paladin gets 3rd level paladin spells. PRC rangers gets 3rd level ranger spells. Paladin and ranger don't get those normally in E6

[JaronK]

There is a strong argument for the effectiveness of PRC paladin and ranger in E6 as well, compared to their base class. PRC paladin gets 3rd level paladin spells. PRC rangers gets 3rd level ranger spells. Paladin and ranger don't get those normally in E6

It's REALLY hard to qualify for those classes in time in E6 though. The BAB +4 requirement means you definitely have to lose a caster level in the process. And with PrC Ranger, that means you actually lose two spellcasting levels, and thus only get second level spells.

It's a shame, because you could make an amazing Cleric archer with PrC Ranger if you could actually get third level spells.

JaronK

[Alienist]

I'm rather curious what that RAW is, considering casters in the style of Beguilers and Dread Necros were not even thought of in the SRD material- I would guess most people 'ignore' it because the specific language of how spontaneous limited-list casters work lets it work regardless of the base rule you have in mind. Still, PM me? I suspect posting it in open thread is going to transform the thread into a giant argument about it.

(emphasis added for irony, since the specific details of those classes actually explicitly prohibit these shenanigans)

To answer your question regarding the SRD - It is from Casting a Spell->Choosing a Spell

"If you’re a bard or sorcerer, you can select any spell you know, provided you are capable of casting spells of that level or higher."

The SRD is remarkably consistent in this regard, so much so that we all simply subume it. This is immediately obvious when looking at magic item creation for instance, everybody knows you need to be 9th level to cast 5th level spells, nobody ever questions it. How did we all chance upon this mysterious understanding? Because the SRD harps on about it constantly.

With respect to the spontaneous limited casters, go and read the bloody things. Yes it says that you automatically know all your spells. Now keep reading. What's this? There's a specific follow up line that explains how this works? And oh, you don't know those spells until you've reached certain minimum levels? What a huge shock.

For the Versatile Spellcaster trick to work, you need to ignore three pieces of raw
(1) the actual text of versatile spellcaster
(2) the actual text of those classes which says they don't know the spells until they reach the appropriate level
(3) the SRD which says that even if you somehow know a spell of a higher level than you can cast, when you choose a spell to cast you can only cast spells of an appropriate level

So RAW provides not one, not two, but three safety nets to prevent this from happening:

You don't know it before using the feat, therefore it is not an option. You don't suddenly spontaneously learn it (and then forget about it) in the middle of using the feat because you haven't gone up a level, and lastly even if you did know it you still couldn't choose it as an option because your class level is too low.

Even if I was wrong on one or even two of these counts, I'd have to be wrong on all three points for this trick to work.

----

That said, if you willfully choose to ignore multiple pieces of RAW, it probably doesn't break E6, and may even add some nice flavour to it.

[Alienist]

It's REALLY hard to qualify for those classes in time in E6 though. The BAB +4 requirement means you definitely have to lose a caster level in the process. And with PrC Ranger, that means you actually lose two spellcasting levels, and thus only get second level spells.

It's a shame, because you could make an amazing Cleric archer with PrC Ranger if you could actually get third level spells.

JaronK

Cleric 4 / Fighter 1 - take mounted combat as your bonus feat, dump some (more) points into ride.

Normally the 'hard' part of getting into prestige paladin is avoiding the mounted combat feat tax, and that most of the classes you want to use to enter it don't have ride as a class skill. Once you've steeled yourself for actually spending a level in fighter ( *twitch* ) it's not too bad. You only lose one caster level, but you still get 3rd level spells... seems like a good deal to me.

[Lonely Tylenol]

It's REALLY hard to qualify for those classes in time in E6 though. The BAB +4 requirement means you definitely have to lose a caster level in the process. And with PrC Ranger, that means you actually lose two spellcasting levels, and thus only get second level spells.

It's a shame, because you could make an amazing Cleric archer with PrC Ranger if you could actually get third level spells.

JaronK

Well, it's actually quite easy to qualify for Prestige Paladin in time: Cleric 4/full BAB class 1 does it without much difficulty at all. The Cleric levels give you 3 BAB and every other feature necessary to qualify except Ride and Knowledge (nobility and royalty) as a class skill (you can still buy it in time if you do it purely cross-class, but not as a non-Human with 8 INT) and Mounted Combat (which means you either need to burn a rank in Ride cross-class, or spend your fifth level on Fighter for Mounted Combat), and if one of your domains happens to be Knowledge, you get Knowledge (nobility and royalty) anyway (I don't recommend it for this build, though). For that 1 extra BAB, I recommend Crusader, since it's a 4+INT class with Ride and Knowledge (religion) as class skills, and it actually has useful class features. Being that a Cleric 4/Crusader 1/Prestige Paladin 1 ends up with third-level Cleric and Paladin spells and second-level maneuvers, it practically builds itself this way.

Does lose a caster level, though.

Third-level ranger spells are still possible with Mystic Ranger (which, ironically, makes single-classed Ranger the best way to do Ranger spells), but if that's not allowed, it's impossible to get them in E6, sadly.

EDIT: Swordsage'd, hard. Och.

[8wGremlin]

just seen an odd build...


Whisper Gnome, Unseelie fae, Paladin of Tyranny. (-4 str, +4 dex)
Take all 6 levels of paladin, and select Shadow Knight ACF @4 and 6
Gain favoured enemy, and hide in plain sight
this gets an Aura 5' that is -{Cha Mod +1} to saves!


I'd also worship Mystra, (tyrant of magic) and take here AFC where able and then Sword of the Arcane Order, there's did the no magic afc as well.

+6/+1 flying, hidden, with a couple of spells, paladin and mage.
takes fly by attack and greater flyby and dark stalker - interesting build