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Scowling Dragon
2013-02-14, 02:36 PM
Monster Manuals, Bestiaries, Folios, Encyclopedias.

All give us the stats and the info for the monsters we send against our PCs.

But One thing I have always wanted was that the books contained only 50 monsters a book, and had 300 Pages.

This sort of came to me as I was reading the Undead Revisited book, and read the Bodak backstory and descriptors.

I was amazed. It wen't from being just another gaze attack undead thing, to something I could genuinely run a whole adventure around.

It described the transformation, and how the eyes start shifting and changing shape as if trying to escape from the body in order to never see any other atrocities.

It described its gaze attack as causing the victims to see the very horrors it saw itself, or possibly bring out the peoples own horrors.

It had stats for how to modify them, and gave an extra unique example of the undead, with an excellent pic to push the creepy limit over the edge.

it described that it could indeed talk, but mostly only to spew blasphemies and horrors, and that they acted smart. Knowing to hide from better opponents.

And all this from a monster that kinda bored me on my first view.

If all monster manuals had the pick of the litter for their monsters, and just had awesome style descriptors like the ones I read, they would create much higher quality products for much less effort.

Grinner
2013-02-14, 02:56 PM
I too share this sentiment.

One of my biggest complaints about the 4e Monster Manual I was the lack of descriptive material (as well as the lack of modularity, but that's another issue entirely). Later, when I read the Deadly Dancer's entry in the 3.5 Tome of Magic, I was amazed. In just two pages, they had done what the entire 4e Monster Manual had failed to do. They had given the creatures their own identity.

The Deadly Dancers, contrary to their name, weren't just fodder for the players. They had their own society, organized as nomadic tribes. They had their own history as the reflections of a Vestige. They would hunt and love. They did far more than any pack of faceless monsters will ever do.

hiryuu
2013-02-14, 03:04 PM
Deadlands Classic used to do this. Actually, they didn't even tell you the stats until the end of the entry. Weird War II was also like this, if I remember. oWoD's Bygone Bestiary was also laid out this way (and had a system in the back for modular assembly of beasties, and remains one of my very favorite RPG books).

Agreed, would like way more books like this, even though 2/3 of the time I end up writing my own nougat text.

EccentricCircle
2013-02-14, 03:09 PM
The Dark Heresy / Rogue trader bestiaries aren't bad in this regard.

I would far rather have a book that detailed a lot of information and really gave you a sense of the creature than one which just lists them and their stats.
Back when I was first learning to play D&D it was reading the monster manual and seeing how all of these creatures fit together into a world that really caught my interest. The descriptions of one creature would reference others and as you read more you would begin to get hints at the story behind them all.

Kol Korran
2013-02-14, 03:53 PM
Hmm. In a way I felt that way too, which is why I started a small project some time ago to give certain monsters much needed depth. My aim was to turn them from encounter/ combat monsters to adventure/ campaign/ world entities. Unfortunately it's mostly me who deals with the project, and not very often.

You can take a look through my signature (the compendium ) I'll be glad to have others contribute.

Scowling Dragon
2013-02-14, 05:11 PM
Also:

Buy Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Undead Revisited.

It really fleshes out all the monsters, and makes them cool, giving them a different air of threat to them again.

Deploy
2013-02-14, 06:18 PM
Why don't we write our own. 50 monsters in 300 pages, that's six pages a monster, part of which is a picture and stat block. Kol Korran has already done some. Start up a community project here on the forums. World-building for the fluff, home brew for new crunch, even the arts and crafts for artwork. Then post a clean finished product here in role playing, maybe a PDF. I'd love to help out a project like that.

ATEKazul
2013-02-14, 06:39 PM
Actually I have the same opinion and would like to add that I also enjoyed the monster entries that deal with multiple versions of them either actual variant forms or variants created by setting.

I was never able to understand how to actually play(being tought wrong because your younger and having barely anyone to play with can do that when combine with RPG complexity) but I have bought DnD and other RPG's for inspiration and flavor my entire life and enjoy them greatly.

So all in all, great idea and I'll keep an eye out.

ShadowFireLance
2013-02-14, 06:41 PM
hey, I would be willing to help with this, Maybe even make it with custom Creations, I know a few people who could help with this as well.
(Afroakuma, I'm looking at you.)

Scowling Dragon
2013-02-14, 06:47 PM
Yeah. That does seem pretty possible. It should follow the structure as in the Book that I liked:


A brief fluffy quote describing the creature (About 20 words or so)
A basic description
Ecology
Habitat and Society
Campaign Role
Treasure
Variants
Devourers In different settings

All about 500 Words each

Followed by a unique example, usually with class levels.

ShadowFireLance
2013-02-14, 06:49 PM
I like making monsters with class levels, So I might be able to help with that.
:smallcool:

Grinner
2013-02-14, 06:56 PM
Why don't we write our own. 50 monsters in 300 pages, that's six pages a monster, part of which is a picture and stat block. Kol Korran has already done some. Start up a community project here on the forums. World-building for the fluff, home brew for new crunch, even the arts and crafts for artwork. Then post a clean finished product here in role playing, maybe a PDF. I'd love to help out a project like that.

6 pages is a lot of work. Are you really prepared to put in that much time and effort?

ShadowFireLance
2013-02-14, 06:59 PM
6 pages is a lot of work. Are you really prepared to put in that much time and effort?

You obviusally don't understand what happens when someone starts rambling on about something they like.
:smallcool:

Scowling Dragon
2013-02-14, 07:00 PM
Its not that hard if you split it into separate categories.

Plus its more like 4 1/2 pages because of pictures.

Grinner
2013-02-14, 07:01 PM
You obviusally don't understand what happens when someone starts rambling on about something they like.
:smallcool:

They write it down?

I guess I just have trouble caring that much. :smallwink:

ShadowFireLance
2013-02-14, 07:07 PM
I have gone over 90K words Discribe-ing Dragons...

Deploy
2013-02-14, 07:09 PM
The point is to make the monster worth six pages. Take something that is used in passing and not cared about and turn it into something that could also be the basis of entire campaigns. Rather than having many monsters with little substance, you instead get a smaller amount of monsters who will be remembered in a players mind years later.

If we are going to do this we need to decide what our fifty monsters will be. I'd personally like to use the ones who don't receive much love, like Kol Korran has done.

ShadowFireLance
2013-02-14, 07:11 PM
The point is to make the monster worth six pages. Take something that is used in passing and not cared about and turn it into something that could also be the basis of entire campaigns. Rather than having many monsters with little substance, you instead get a smaller amount of monsters who will be remembered in a players mind years later.

If we are going to do this we need to decide what our fifty monsters will be. I'd personally like to use the ones who don't receive much love, like Kol Korran has done.

Such as the Pseduodragon? I've never seen that used, in anything.
Or perhaps the oft' ignored Belker...(no, not that one)

Seharvepernfan
2013-02-14, 07:14 PM
So, would we take a monster that already exists (like a beholder)? Or make new ones?

Scowling Dragon
2013-02-14, 07:17 PM
I would argue that not specifically VERY obscure boring monsters (Ant lion anyone?), yet not very popular ones either (Like Liches).

Something thats quite well known, but not very in depth. Preferably monsters with a bit of intelligence.

Seharvepernfan
2013-02-14, 07:19 PM
Why don't you make a list of ones you'd like to see redone, then we can all grab ones from the list that we'd like to do.

ShadowFireLance
2013-02-14, 07:19 PM
I would argue that not specifically VERY obscure boring monsters (Ant lion anyone?), yet not very popular ones either (Like Liches).

Something thats quite well known, but not very in depth. Preferably monsters with a bit of intelligence.

Dragons! :smallcool: :smallbiggrin: :smalltongue:

Beholders have their own Lords of Madness, As do Yuan-Ti, And a few others, But I never see a Barghest focused something

Grinner
2013-02-14, 07:22 PM
But I never see a Barghest focused something

Demonic were-goblins? That's going to need quite a backstory.

Deploy
2013-02-14, 07:24 PM
We don't want to show anyone a new monster or tell them about a monster that they already know a lot about. We're taking the monsters that you've never given a second thought. Everybody already cares about Dragons and nobody's ever heard of a phylxadrake, but they've all come across the entry for a pseudodragon. It's just nobody's given them a reason to care about pseudodragons, that's our job.

Scowling Dragon
2013-02-14, 07:27 PM
Like Aboleth for example. Thats a good one. Often overlooked because of Illithids.

Perhaps a more detailed going into into that of the society and shizz.

ShadowFireLance
2013-02-14, 07:28 PM
Like Aboleth for example. Thats a good one. Often overlooked because of Illithids.

Perhaps a more detailed going into into that of the society and shizz.

Aboleth, Yes! Those are often overlooked, But how would you discribe the backstory but: Yeah, These are Immensely powerful Lords of Madness that predate the gods, And live in dungeons, you're not going to win.
:smallcool:

Grinner
2013-02-14, 07:30 PM
Aboleth, Yes! Those are often overlooked, But how would you discribe the backstory but: Yeah, These are Immensely powerful Lords of Madness that predate the gods, And live in dungeons, you're not going to win.
:smallcool:

Speaking of Lords of Madness, weren't they detailed in that book?

Scowling Dragon
2013-02-14, 07:35 PM
Eh, that book is terrible anyway and didn't say anything new that wasn't said before.

Maybe we could go into a bunch of races that they created? Or how Aboleths reproduce by turning their slaves into copies of themselves or something similar.

Deploy
2013-02-14, 07:37 PM
How about blink dogs? They've got a half page even though they are sentient and can be used for unique hit and run tactics.

Scowling Dragon
2013-02-14, 07:40 PM
Im not really talking about from a tactics standpoint. Fluff and small details are allot more interesting then talk about tactics.

Grinner
2013-02-14, 07:46 PM
I went through the 3.5 SRD and found these ones suitable.


Assassin Vine (A walking, carnivorous plant. How did that happen? How do they reproduce?)
Barghest
Blink Dog (I read something interesting about Blink Dog social structures once.)
Choker
Chuul (Did you know they have an Intelligence score of ten?)
Cockatrice
Destrachan
Doppelganger (What's a Doppelganger society like? Why do they infiltrate human societies?)
Gibbering Mouther
Shambling Mound
Tarrasque (How did it come to be?)


The Pathfinder SRD might have more.

ShadowFireLance
2013-02-14, 07:47 PM
I went through the 3.5 SRD and found these ones suitable.


Chuul (Did you know they have an Intelligence score of ten?)



Wait, WHAT? WHEN? SAY WHAT NOW? :smalleek: :smallconfused:

Grinner
2013-02-14, 07:51 PM
Wait, WHAT? WHEN? SAY WHAT NOW? :smalleek: :smallconfused:

Yeah. And they speak Common too.

Deploy
2013-02-14, 07:53 PM
I'd aim for a mixture of both. One makes an interesting encounter while the other makes an interesting adventure.

But I agree fluff should be the priority in a project like this. Fluffwise I still see potential for blink dogs. Pups are incredibly valuable because they can be raised and trained, how do other blink dogs feel about that? They are lawful good, does the fact they live in a pack that has to get along cause that? When you become so In sink that you teleport and hunt more like one entity rather than many, how would they feel about abnormal dogs that don't agree with the packs group think? What kind of religion do they have? I can easily get ages of fluff on these guys.

I Always thought chuul looked cool, anything that looks cool deserves to have cool background

Kol Korran
2013-02-15, 03:58 AM
I haven't followed the discussion for a bit, so this is going to be a bit of a long post. first I'd like to explain a few of the problems I faced in my own project, which might help, and secondly respond to some of the other posts. I apologize for the length, but that's how I am.

problems that the joint project might face
1. while you can put some creatures on a list, it's much harder to appoint people to them. Say I got appointed the before mentioned blink dog, but do I have anything to actually write about it? inspiration is much harder to come by than you think... I suggest people only picking monsters they have a solid base for. Also, for some entries, if the ideas are not solid enough, I suggest people might open a different thread and discuss some theories.

2. we are many people from many different ages, maturity, experience, cultural backgrounds and more. even in this thread disagreements about which monsters, which format and the like to work by. Be prepared that the "quality" (more rightly the style) of works is going to be vastly different, and not appreciated by all. that is ok, it is natural, just expect it and don't be too frustrated about it.

I suggest that for certain creatures, if there is enough interest, that a few versions might be given.

3. We also quite differ in gaming experience and expectations. one person plays in a high magic environment where dragons are common, in another they are but a myth, and spells above 5th level are very rare. one guy plays in FR where the gods walk, another in Eberron where they are more part of religion than proof, and so on. Try to describe your monsters as "general" (and there will be ome contesting as to that) and if you want, you can put in side notes as to how they fit specific campaigns.

4. format: you suggested a format which I believe comes from the OP have read. It's cool, but i'd suggest not to get strict about it. people write in different styles, and find focus on different aspects of the monster. therefor I suggest to people write freely, in a format that suits their writing needs. you might be surprised, and besides- sometimes it's much more interesting to see a new take on things.

on that subject, I'd also avoid a fixed length, per creature entry, and per segment, i'd leave the word count as a suggestion and guideline, not as a strict (or even semi strict) rule.

5. the most important thing- cooperation and respecting each other. really, there can be nothing more important in a project like this. this might involve many people, many ideas, many concepts, attitudes and so on. some entries WILL NOT BE LIKED by some of the forum. No reason to bash someone for it. criticism is good, trying to improve the entry, but accept it's that's person's idea, and that's it.

ok, to the answering other posts part... :smallamused:
------------------------------------------------------



A brief fluffy quote describing the creature (About 20 words or so)
A basic description
Ecology
Habitat and Society
Campaign Role
Treasure
Variants
Devourers In different settings

All about 500 Words each

Followed by a unique example, usually with class levels.
Interesting format, I'd offer mine as well, in this post, the second one from my compendium (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4351427&postcount=2)


I like making monsters with class levels, So I might be able to help with that.
:smallcool:
monsters with class levels are often individual monsters of their race/ culture. aren't these supposed to be more general? or am I missing something?


Such as the Pseduodragon? I've never seen that used, in anything.
Or perhaps the oft' ignored Belker...(no, not that one)
Pseudodragon- sure. but why not Belkar? admittingly I can't think of something for it, because it's quite obscure- but doesn't that just qualify it more for a write up?


So, would we take a monster that already exists (like a beholder)? Or make new ones?
I think the idea is to take a monster that exists, and is poorly (or more correctly- insufficiently) described, and make it come more alive, supply more content, more depth to it.


Dragons! :smallcool: :smallbiggrin: :smalltongue:

Beholders have their own Lords of Madness, As do Yuan-Ti, And a few others, But I never see a Barghest focused something

Demonic were-goblins? That's going to need quite a backstory.
Um, check my compendium for the Barghest? my own little take on it


Speaking of Lords of Madness, weren't they detailed in that book?

Eh, that book is terrible anyway and didn't say anything new that wasn't said before.

Here for example I'd say we disagree. quite a few people on these forums and myself included think of lords of madness as a great source book (including fluff). we may disagree, but aren't there more creatures with much more desperate need of adding material to them? the Aboleths have quite a bit already it seems.


How about blink dogs? They've got a half page even though they are sentient and can be used for unique hit and run tactics.
Blink dogs sound interesting indeed. and tactics might be an important part of the entry, though I agree it probably won't take all of it. I'd personally like to explore the origins and current relations with displacer beasts (who also CAN talk)


I went through the 3.5 SRD and found these ones suitable.


Assassin Vine (A walking, carnivorous plant. How did that happen? How do they reproduce?)
Barghest
Blink Dog (I read something interesting about Blink Dog social structures once.)
Choker
Chuul (Did you know they have an Intelligence score of ten?)
Cockatrice
Destrachan
Doppelganger (What's a Doppelganger society like? Why do they infiltrate human societies?)
Gibbering Mouther
Shambling Mound
Tarrasque (How did it come to be?)


The Pathfinder SRD might have more.
interesting ideas. the emphasis is about two critters I've done entries for already in my compendium. The Tarrasque is a bit difficult, since each campaign world is supposed to deal with it differently... Chokers would be very interesting I imagine, though I can't think of an idea for them yet. a Nice starting point!

I may join the project, but due to time constraints, and inspiration not always striking, my entires may not be that often. feel free to use the work I've done in the meantime, I think it's a commendable and highly interesting venture! :smallsmile:

ShadowFireLance
2013-02-15, 04:03 AM
Pseudodragon- sure. but why not Belkar? admittingly I can't think of something for it, because it's quite obscure- but doesn't that just qualify it more for a write up?

I meant Belkar from OOtS, as in, not HIM...:smallcool: :smallwink: