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Jon_Dahl
2013-02-15, 05:43 AM
In my game one of the players wants to create sorcerer who is specialized in two things: Melee-spells and high AC. Basically he runs into melee while being tiny and tries to do stuff like shocking grasp, vampiric touch etc. He has very few hp and, quite frankly, I'm certain that his character will die very quickly.

One of the players has already questioned his idea and he has said everything that I was going to tell him. He said that he didn't care because he loves the character concept. He understands that the build is "risky". I don't think there is any way to change his mind.

By the end of next month his character will be dead. I'm 99% certain of this.

What would you do in this situation?

Gildedragon
2013-02-15, 05:45 AM
Let the player do it.
False-life and extra constitution objects could help them.

ArcturusV
2013-02-15, 05:48 AM
Point out Spectral Hand so the character can keep some range off him?

If you are running DnD 3rd/3.5 or something and willing to use third party sources there are feats he could take like Close-Order Drill and Improved Close-Order Drill which would give him the benefits of half cover when fighting next to someone else with those same feats (Hey... teamwork. Why not?).

Or just chalk it up to a learning experience. Always some that you have to learn the hard way like, "Don't mess with a Deck of Many Things", or "If you think you can kill a God... you're wrong. No. You overlooked something."

supermonkeyjoe
2013-02-15, 06:03 AM
Pint him towards the duskblade, seems like it would be able to handle the concept better and be less likely to die horribly in the first encounter

hymer
2013-02-15, 06:40 AM
Let him do it, and be supportive of the player, as you ought to be anyway. He's already been warned, no sense in trying to take his fun away.
Don't be hard on him, but don't be softer on him than the game dictates either. Help him find the things he can use (I don't really know what system you're using, so I can't give more specific advice there). And put in treasure you know can help him, just as you would for any character.

W3bDragon
2013-02-15, 09:42 AM
In my game one of the players wants to create sorcerer who is specialized in two things: Melee-spells and high AC. Basically he runs into melee while being tiny and tries to do stuff like shocking grasp, vampiric touch etc. He has very few hp and, quite frankly, I'm certain that his character will die very quickly.

One of the players has already questioned his idea and he has said everything that I was going to tell him. He said that he didn't care because he loves the character concept. He understands that the build is "risky". I don't think there is any way to change his mind.

By the end of next month his character will be dead. I'm 99% certain of this.

What would you do in this situation?

Build variety is one of the pillars of 3.5's endurance. People will build wacky stuff because the system allows it, and its fun. If it works out, great! If not, he goes splat or retires and the player chalks it up to experience and moves on. I don't see a big problem here.

Now if your games are usually very high op and rather lethal, then... well actually, even then, I don't see a problem. The character either dies, or more likely, gets a very early brush with death and quickly adjusts tactics to survive. Sorcerers are not weak, he can recover from a bad build with a few well chosen spells.

CarpeGuitarrem
2013-02-15, 09:48 AM
Hmmm.

You said that the character knows that their build is "risky". Are they aware that it is a step beyond risky? I mean, a "risky" build is one that might get you in danger, one that might work well or might not.

This is not that.

Kelb_Panthera
2013-02-15, 10:59 AM
It's his charact and he's been warned. He says he knows what he's doing.

What you need to do, you've already done. Let the chips fall where they may, now.

Jay R
2013-02-15, 11:31 AM
Talk to him, and find out if he is one of the gamers who believe that PCs should never die except by choice.

If feels like he thinks "risky" means that the game will be exciting, and you think "risky" means that the PC will die.

You need to make it clear that PCs can die in your world, become some players come in with the idea that they can't.

hymer
2013-02-15, 11:36 AM
@ JR: Why would he call it 'risky' if he thought there was no risk of his character dying?

CarpeGuitarrem
2013-02-15, 12:29 PM
@ JR: Why would he call it 'risky' if he thought there was no risk of his character dying?
Uh, it's not that there's no risk. It's that there's a lot of risk.

Going into a fight where you have a 30% chance of dying, that's risky.

The OP has stated a far, far higher chance of this turning out disastrously. That's not just risky, that's something above and beyond.

hymer
2013-02-15, 01:02 PM
JR was talking about how he was worried the player was expecting his PC to be unkillable, and then be annoyed when it would turn out he got killed.
If he thought that he was on contractual immortality, he wouldn't also characterize his build as 'risky'. What is there to risk besides the death of his character? I'm simply saying it seems the player is aware that his character can die.

CarpeGuitarrem
2013-02-15, 02:26 PM
JR was talking about how he was worried the player was expecting his PC to be unkillable, and then be annoyed when it would turn out he got killed.
If he thought that he was on contractual immortality, he wouldn't also characterize his build as 'risky'. What is there to risk besides the death of his character? I'm simply saying it seems the player is aware that his character can die.
Again...there's risk of death, and then there's Russian Roulette. And then there's Russian Roulette with five bullets.

I suspect the player believes that their character falls into the first or second categories; probably the first. It sounds, though, as if the character's going to fall into the third category, so I would heartily suggest a character fix in that situation.

ArcturusV
2013-02-15, 02:27 PM
Yeah. That is a problem I've run into with certain players. Usually the ones who got their RPG formative years/adventures on Message Boards. Seems Message Board RPGs tend to have that rule, written or not, of "You can't do anything untoward and lasting to my character unless I say so and give permission". So I've had that problem before where some people who were used to operating with that sort of safety net suddenly found themselves quite without it. (Or infamous stories about how RPGA games are designed to be impossible to kill characters unless you run an insane number of botches and the enemy really lucks out.)

So he might be thinking that "Risky" means that it might not be successful, that his character is KOed for the fight or something. Or "risky" in the context that Touch Spells have to make an attack roll and thus may not actually hit. So it'd be good to get on the same page.

Tengu_temp
2013-02-15, 02:31 PM
Jay R will never miss the chance to act in a subtly condescending way towards people who don't share his chosen playstyle, I see.

My advice: offer the player to play a Duskblade and/or advice him to invest in better HP so he'll at least survive getting hit. Even a pure wizard can have decent hit points if it's built with them in mind.

hymer
2013-02-15, 02:33 PM
@ CG: I'm not arguing about how dangerous this is. I'm simply saying it seems the player is aware that his character can die. I'm doing that as a response to JR, who told the OP that the player probably isn't aware that his character can die. :smallsmile:

ReaderAt2046
2013-02-15, 07:39 PM
The way I see it, if he wants to play a character that he knows will probably get killed, let him! If he can actually make it work it will be glorious, and if not then his character will get killed fast and he'll roll up something more sensible.

LibraryOgre
2013-02-15, 07:51 PM
Let him. Be sure to tell him the rules regarding starting a new character, especially if you're not of the "at party level with appropriate loot" school. I like starting off new PCs unarmed and prisoners, myself, especially if they bought it in the middle of a lengthy delve.

scurv
2013-02-15, 09:15 PM
Meh, If he is having fun, let him. So he knows his build is risky, most likely he accepts the soon to happen death. I know I am no stranger to choosing the less then optimum build or tactic just for the sake of fun. Besides wizards tend to have many spells that are far better suited to melee chars then to wizards. So sometimes it is fun to make a wizard that actually uses them.

Ranos
2013-02-16, 02:09 PM
Sorcerers make perfectly fine gishes.
If you don't trust your player to make it work, you can point him to Stalwart/Battle sorcerer as well as the good melee spells, like Fist of Stone, Bladeweave, the Alter Self/Polymorph line, Wings of cover...

Really, your player's idea is only suicidal if the game's difficulty is aimed at high optimization casters. What's the rest of the group like ?

SowZ
2013-02-16, 02:17 PM
Yeah, I second going Battle Sorcerer. d6 HD and light armor should help survivability. At higher levels, the light armor won't be that relevant. But oh, well. It is his concept and it isn't impossible to pull off and live.

bbgenderless100
2013-02-16, 03:03 PM
In my game one of the players wants to create sorcerer who is specialized in two things: Melee-spells and high AC. Basically he runs into melee while being tiny and tries to do stuff like shocking grasp, vampiric touch etc. He has very few hp and, quite frankly, I'm certain that his character will die very quickly.

One of the players has already questioned his idea and he has said everything that I was going to tell him. He said that he didn't care because he loves the character concept. He understands that the build is "risky". I don't think there is any way to change his mind.

By the end of next month his character will be dead. I'm 99% certain of this.

What would you do in this situation?

Just go with whatever makes sense.

NikitaDarkstar
2013-02-16, 10:23 PM
Lets see here. As the others said, make sure both of you have the same interpretation of "risky" here.

I'm also going to assume D&D 3.5 is the system you're running, and if I'm correct consider pointing him towards the warlock, at least a couple of levels. The at-will abilities will help him, and it's a charisma based class. He'll get light armor proficiency and no arcane spell failures with it. I'd also consider letting him take practiced spell-caster as a feat to make up for the levels.

Ask him if Duskblade or War mage might not be what he's actually looking for?

Let him have fun with it. Who knows? He just might surprise you and some of the polymorph styled spells are very, very, very powerful for melee. And remember mage armor adds to armor AC, shield adds to shield AC, if he has any idea what he's doing he'll get both spells (or items with them).

And remind him that sorcerers do run out of spells rather fast at lower levels so he REALLY will want another means of doing damage (see warlock).

Astral Avenger
2013-02-16, 11:05 PM
Nine words: Ready action to loot his corpse first.

ZeroGear
2013-02-17, 12:00 AM
Let him play the character. If he can make it to higher levels, he gains access to things like rings of blink, invisibility, flight, and numerous other things that would reduce the risk. Also, suggest that he takes a dip into the fighter, barbarian, or monk class as they would really up his survivability. Heck, there's even prestige classes that make this idea more doable, like the Rage Mage, Erdrich Knight, or Dragon Disciple (and a raging caster with shocking hands is a scary idea; I am also assuming this is 3.5). As long as he has fun, and does not put the group in danger, he should be fine.

Lonely Tylenol
2013-02-17, 01:01 AM
What level is this character?

Does he want a character who is purposefully weak and frail, and thus "suicidal" as you are describing it, or does he just want to be able to wade into melee with a bunch of touch spells (with no specific mention of being weak)?

If the latter, it can very easily be done, with a survivable 1-20 build. Far from weak, it's totally manageable.

Here's what he's going to want:
- Continuous item of Mage Armor, CL1, 2,000gp*, or the spell Mage Armor. +4 armor bonus (the equivalent of a chain shirt). This will tide him over until...
- +1 Twilight (Magic Item Compendium, p. 15) Mithral Chain Shirt, worn with Mithral Chahar-Aina and Mithral Dastana (both Oriental Adventures, p. 75). Value 7,200gp. +7 to AC with a max DEX of 6 and no armor check or arcane spell failure (Chain's 20% is mitigated to 10% by Mithral and 0% by Twilight; Chahar-Aina and Dastana's 5% are mitigated to 0% by Mithral). This armor can be improved over the course of his career to +11 to AC by improving it to +5 (+12 if the armor has the Reinforced armor property in Dragon Magazine... I want to say #358? If you'd allow it), and the Chahar-Aina and Dastana can be enchanted separately from the main armor (although the enhancement bonus to armor does not stack, this is a good way to get different special effects cheaply). If his DEX is improved to 22 over the course of his career (not terribly difficult to get), Armor Class will be 28 on the merit of this alone.
- Continuous item of Reduce Person, CL1, 4,000gp*. Caster level can be improved if he wishes. This will provide a +2 to DEX and a +1 size bonus to hit very cheaply (great with Weapon Finesse), and the reduction in die size does not matter at all for touch attacks. Even better if he's already a Small-sized race (such as a Strongheart Halfling).
- Continuous item of Shield, CL1, 4,000gp*. I'm not convinced this ever needs to be replaced with an animated shield, because the comparative benefits of this are just too good for the cost.
- The Dragonskin spell (Spell Compendium, p. 73). This can be combined with Scintillating Scales (Spell Compendium, p. 181) in order to give him a +5 deflection bonus to AC cheaply, or it could just be a natural armor bonus on its own that he combines with a deflection bonus granted elsewhere.

*You can combine spell effects on an item by multiplying all of the prices of each effect (aside from the most expensive one) by 1.5.

That's an AC of 37 without too big an investiture of resources (around the time he reaches double-digits, he should have most or all of this available to him), which will make him survivable in melee range. Other common defensive options include Protection from Arrows, Resist Energy, Superior Resistance, and so on. Two levels of Paladin wouldn't hurt if he goes the Sorcerer route (for CHA to saves), and of course hit points as a buffer is nice, too (Stalwart being better than Battle, I believe, if he wanted to trade spell access for durability, but you can combine the two if you need). There is no substitute for a good CON score, though.

The next step would be to pick at least one spell of each level (or among the levels you can cast a lot of) that is a touch spell you can cast. These can be damaging spells or otherwise; probably best to pick a few different utility spells. For example:
1st: Shocking Grasp
2nd: Ghoul Touch, Dispelling Touch, Combust
3rd: Vampiric Touch, Shivering Touch
4th: Bestow Curse
5th: Dismissal

And so on.

(Not all of these have to be damaging, or at least in the sense that you might think. These are all useful touch-range powers, distributed fairly evenly between levels except for second, which might get cluttered; that would be cause for me to drop either Ghoul Touch or Dispelling Touch.)

Bam. Suddenly, not suicidal.

Jon_Dahl
2013-02-17, 01:47 AM
What level is this character?

6th. Some of the things you suggested are non-Core and most things that are non-Core are banned in my games. Othen than that, I found your ideas intriguing; AC 37 is certainly massive.


What's the rest of the group like ?

Spriggan Rogue 1
Half-giant fighter 5/monk 1 (currently at -5 hp)
Gnome druid 6
Guest PC: Dwarf fighter 9
The group is exclusively neutral (and a bit chaotic).
Some of these characters might die soon because their battle with a web golem is not faring well.

@NikitaDarkstar
Warlock is a viable option, but Duskblade is banned. His character is already ready and written down, so there is no turning back anymore.

Felyndiira
2013-02-17, 02:16 AM
The character's a sorcerer, right? The best thing you can do is to support his build to the best of his ability and encourage him to take good choices.

For instance, you mentioned Vampiric Touch, so I assume third level spells are in play. Lonely Tylenol gave a lot of ideas for boosting AC and touch, but there are other tricks he could do as a sorcerer to support the build. For instance, on a basic level, taking Mirror Image (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mirrorImage.htm) and/or Displacement (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/displacement.htm) would drastically decrease hit chance against him and allow him to survive in melee. You can also have trigger items for these drop from random encounters as well.

The only thing I would talk to the player about is taking only touch spells at every level. There's tons of ways to make touch his main offense and still survive, but there are lots of defensive skills that would really help if he took them. Encourage the player to at least take some additional utility spells for survival and to cover a few bases would not be a bad thing.

Remember, also, that you can homebrew spells to help move the concept alone. A homebrew melee touch enervation, for instance, would support his build really well, make him contribute a ton to battlefield debuffing, and let him maintain his theme while keeping the basic theme of a very powerful spell the same (and make it weaker, in fact).

**

EDIT2: I would also recommend Weapon Finesse to the player. Weapon Finesse, by raw, works on all touch attacks, and DEX helps the sorcerer so much more than STR.

HC Rainbow
2013-02-19, 06:09 PM
Make him fight flying harpies and watch him flail about.

But seriously, See if you can find a way to let him be very very tiny and have other players sling him across the board and slap monsters in the face with a touch attack, I think that would be effective and REALLY funny.

^^^

Or just tell him he should look into duskblade. also very similar, better BAB, Armor, Etc.

Incom
2013-02-19, 07:08 PM
Could make him specialize in illusions, making it so that nobody is really sure where they're supposed to swing in order to actually hit him.

Of course, illusions plus offensive magic equals pretty cramped spell list.

Kaiisaxo
2013-02-19, 08:44 PM
Two words: Let him.

Sixth level is high enough for this character to be survivable, I played a melee sorcerer who lived all the way to third level, it started as a first level core only melee sorcerer (and indeed he was melee, based, as in hit stuff with weapons melee). Yes it is a big, no a huge gamble, but if he understands the risks (namely his character may die at any time) and can live with it so should you.

Jack of Spades
2013-02-19, 08:56 PM
Never stop a player from making a stupid decision: You might be wrong.

Rhynn
2013-02-19, 08:59 PM
I don't think there's a better way for a player to learn than to play (or build, in 3E) badly and get a character killed. If he doesn't, great, he discovered a working if sub-optimal build that he'll presumably enjoy. Doesn't seem to be a problem (unless, as Jay R suggests, the player gets upset; but having been warned already, they'd have to be pretty childish).

dps
2013-02-19, 11:33 PM
What you should do is be happy that you have a player who has and unusual character concept that they want to try out, instead of someone who is just trying to create the most mechanically optimized character.

Of course, you should make absolutely sure that he understands that this character concept might not work and, and that there's a good chance that he will die. If he's OK with that, you should be too.