What are the limits of Divine and Arcane?

[scarmiglionne4]

I am working on a couple of homebrew caster classes and some new spells. I need to know the limits of Divine and Arcane magic.

In other words, what kinds of spells cannot be Divine/Arcane spells.

[Agincourt]

There aren't really any hard and fast rules. You will find exceptions to just about everything.

For example, healing is generally considered Divine magic, but then you have certain arcane casters, such as bards with cure spells. Arcane spells are generally considered to be better for direct damage, battlefield control, or utility, but then you have examples of each on the Divine spell list. Plus, Miracle can do pretty much everything Wish can do, such as emulate spells, but do it for less experience.

[scarmiglionne4]

Okay. Let's say you wanted to describe the difference between arcane and divine to a new player. If you were to describe the "theme" of each, what would you say?

If I can just get a baseline I can maybe run with it. All I can think of is the basic whitemage/blackmage dichotomy: divine heals, arcane damages.

[LTwerewolf]

Arcane is acquired through either study or natural talent, whereas divine is granted to you by a deity.

In d&d there's a lot of overlap between the two. Clerics and can accomplish blasting, and wizards can accomplish gi****ude quite easily.

[Andezzar]

Plus, Miracle can do pretty much everything Wish can do, such as emulate spells, but do it for less experience.if your deity wants that to happen. This restriction is very important. Because of it a DM can say no to anything you want done through miracle.

[Slipperychicken]

Generally speaking:

Arcane: Lockdown, damage, major utility.

Divine: Buff, heal, status-removal, minor utility.

[Pickford]

I am working on a couple of homebrew caster classes and some new spells. I need to know the limits of Divine and Arcane magic.

In other words, what kinds of spells cannot be Divine/Arcane spells.

There are effectively no limits on Arcane.

Divine are limited as to what your deity agrees to grant you.

Miracle is weaker than Wish because unless it's using one of the emulation effects it's dependent on the deity (DM) interpreting your plea for assistance, you don't get to be very specific.

The PHB has a pretty good run-down on the distinctions of each.

Edit: Divine casters also generally require a divine focus in addition to anything else.

[Vaz]

Hit by the word filter there heh.

Perhaps your suggestion is the best way to explain to a newbie enough, gradually introducing new bits here and there.

- Divine = Heal, Buff, etc
- Arcane = Damage, debuff/nerf, etc

[scarmiglionne4]

I plan to eliminate divine influence from one side of magic. All magic springs from the same force. It requires no study. A very few people are born Gifted with magical ability. The difference lies in the strength of their mind (Wis or Int).

The Mage's power is influenced by either Light or Darkness, as are all living things. Basically, one type of Mage wields positive energy, the other wields negative energy.

I want to create something conceptually like a lite Mage: The Ascension style casting. But I don't want it to be difficult to learn or use, and I don't want it to get out of hand.

So I need limits. Limits so far:
MAGIC CANNOT:
• Duplicate and substitute for the use of a skill
• Detect any information as it is explicitly written in terms of the rules as the players would understand them
• See events in the future without a ritual
• Summon non-animals
• Enable any kind of planar travel or entrance into any plane of existence other than the Prime material plane
• Instantly transport
• Grant magical ability to those that do not already have it
• Raise the dead
• Reverse or stop aging

[Story]

Miracle is weaker than Wish because unless it's using one of the emulation effects it's dependent on the deity (DM) interpreting your plea for assistance, you don't get to be very specific.


Is there anyone who doesn't use it for the emulation effects? Anyway, it's possible to get Miracle as an arcane spell.

[Eldariel]

Easiest to probably look Wizard vs. Cleric since they're the most prototypical classes of each type. E.g. Druid is already half-arcane half-divine of sorts in spite of being a divine caster.

Wizard has:
- Better battlefield control effects
- "Better" damage spells
- Teleportation
- More varied minion generation
- Illusion

Cleric has:
- Better healing
- Better planar travel
- More varied buffing
- More specific anti-type effects


Of course, those aren't hard-and-fast rules and some fronts they're just different (how do you quantify e.g. Blasphemy-line or Anti-Life Shell for instance?), but they're general trends.

In general, divine magic is better "defensively" (used to protect someone, be it in form of buffs, immunities or whatever) while arcane magic is better "offensively" (used against someone, be it in form of control, damage or whatever).

[Pickford]

Is there anyone who doesn't use it for the emulation effects? Anyway, it's possible to get Miracle as an arcane spell.


Explain please. (I see Miracle: Clr 9, Luck 9 which are both divine, not arcane)

Edit:

• Duplicate and substitute for the use of a skill

Doesn't this eliminate all compulsion effects? Since they're more powerful than bluff.

Also: knock (open locks), detect traps (search), detect secret doors (search), detect poison (search)...and so on...is this intended?

[Eldariel]

Explain please. (I see Miracle: Clr 9, Luck 9 which are both divine, not arcane)

Arcane Disciple is the easiest. Wyrm Wizard & al. work too.

[Pickford]

Arcane Disciple is the easiest. Wyrm Wizard & al. work too.

Ah neat. Of course you have to be chaotic good, neutral or chaotic neutral and at least a 19 wisdom...and you can only cast it once a day, but still.

(Since it's luck domain which requires olidammara, kord or I forget the other guy's name and uses your wisdom score instead of int/cha for casting)

[Story]

I don't remember off the top of my head, but I think you can get domains without worshiping an associated deity.

You could also grab Substitute Domain via Wrym Wizard or Recaster and then take any other domain (Divine Oracle or Rainbow Servant).

Also, I think you could gain the ability to cast it more than once per day by turning it into a SLA via Archmage. Dweomerkeeper might also work.

[Agincourt]

You do have to choose a deity:

"Choose a deity, and then select a domain available to clerics of that deity. You can learn to cast the spells associated with that domain as arcane spells."

[Slipperychicken]

So I need limits. Limits so far:
MAGIC CANNOT:
• Duplicate and substitute for the use of a skill
• Detect any information as it is explicitly written in terms of the rules as the players would understand them
• See events in the future without a ritual
• Summon non-animals
• Enable any kind of planar travel or entrance into any plane of existence other than the Prime material plane
• Instantly transport
• Grant magical ability to those that do not already have it
• Raise the dead
• Reverse or stop aging

Honestly, with such a complete overhaul, you might as well find another system, or make it from scratch. Also, don't tell people you're playing 3.5, because that's misleading. I once was invited to a "3.5 core only" game with houserules like you're describing. It certainly was not 3.5, and was awful.

[Pickford]

Honestly, with such a complete overhaul, you might as well find another system, or make it from scratch. Also, don't tell people you're playing 3.5, because that's misleading. I once was invited to a "3.5 core only" game with houserules like you're describing. It certainly was not 3.5, and was awful.

It might be a good idea to let the players know it's an otherwise 3.5 game with heavily modified rules on magic.

[Vaz]

With such rules, there is very little that magic can do. Just tell everyone they can play Warmage or Fighter, and be done with it.

[RagnaroksChosen]

I don't know if this is a hard and fast rule but typically divine is not subject to spell failure for waring Armour, where as arcane typically you need a class feature to get around it.

[Andezzar]

I don't know if this is a hard and fast rule but typically divine is not subject to spell failure for waring Armour, where as arcane typically you need a class feature to get around it.That is why the property of armor is called Arcane Spell Failure or ASF.

[Story]

You do have to choose a deity:

"Choose a deity, and then select a domain available to clerics of that deity. You can learn to cast the spells associated with that domain as arcane spells."

You need a deity for Arcane Disciple though it doesn't actually say you have to worship the deity you chose. However, I think there were some other methods that explicitly don't require you to worship a deity. I can't remember them right now though.

[Quorothorn]

I'd also add that if a spell deals with Alignment it is probably a Divine (or more specifically Clerical/Domain) spell. Wiz/Sorc list has Protection from [Alignment] and Magic Circle Against [Alignment], but as I recall every other core spell dealing with Alignment is Divine-only (Dispel/Detect [Alignment], the Holy Word 'line'...).