Build Review Needed: Swift Hunter [3.5]

[MustacheFart]

So, I am playing a Swift Hunter in a 3.5 game. Right now, I just hit level 2 and have yet to level up my character.

GAME (DM) RULINGS/NOTES:

Dragon Magazine only allowed if you own a copy
Ranger Substitution levels will not work for Mystic Ranger
I do NOT want to use Thrown Weapons
Domains I'd like to choose 2 from: Travel, Magic, Pride, Celerity, Time
SoTAO does not allow me to use magic items require I be an arcane caster



This is what I am currently working with:

Race: Human
Class: LVL 1 Scout
Stats (24-point buy due to Tier 1 Cloistered Cleric dip):

STR:10
DEX:14
CON:12
INT: 14
WIS: 12
CHA: 10

Skills:

Knowledge (Arcane, Dungeoneering, Local, Nature, The Planes, Religion) - 4 ranks each
Spot - 4 ranks
Listen - 4 ranks
Tumble - 4 ranks

FEATS: Point Blank Shot (1st), Precise Shot (Human), Education (Flaw 1), Darkstalker (Flaw 2)

Flaws: Murky-Eyed and Noncombatant

Here is what I am thinking for the rest of my build:

Level:

2) Cloistered Cleric 1 (Magic Domain and Pride Domain?) ~ Knowledge Devotion (sacrificing Knowledge Domain)
3) Mystic Ranger 1 ~ Weapon Focus [Longbow] (3rd level feat)?
4) Mystic Ranger 2(Mystic Ranger doesn't get FE until lvl 2) ~ DM Approved Arcane Hunter ACF here for FE [Arcanists]
5) Scout 2
6) Scout 3 ~ Swift Hunter (6th level feat)
7) Scout 4 ~ Improved Skirmish (bonus feat)
8) Scout 5 ~ to get evasion
9) Mystic Ranger 3 ~ Rapid Shot (Bonus: hurts getting it this late), Travel Devotion (9th level feat)
10) Mystic Ranger 4 ~ Endurance (bonus)
11) Mystic Ranger 5
12) Mystic Ranger 6 ~ Sword of the Arcane Order (12th level feat)
13) Mystic Ranger 7 ~ Manyshot (bonus)
14) Mystic Ranger 8
15) Mystic Ranger 9 ~ Evasion (Sacrificied for Spell Reflection), Greater Manyshot (15th level feat)
16) Mystic Ranger 10
17) Mystic Ranger 11
18) Mystic Ranger 12 ~ Improved Precise Shot (Bonus), nemesis? (18th level feat)
19) Highland Stalker 1
20) Highland Stalker 2

Seems very slow in the progression... Hmm perhaps a slight change up with:

2) Cloistered Cleric 1 (Magic Domain and Pride Domain) ~ Knowledge Devotion (sacrificing Knowledge Domain)
3) Mystic Ranger 1 ~ Weapon Focus [Longbow] (3rd level feat)?
4) Mystic Ranger 2(Mystic Ranger doesn't get FE until lvl 2) ~ DM Approved Arcane Hunter ACF here for FE [Arcanists]
5) Mystic Ranger 3 ~ Rapid Shot (Bonus: wish I could get it earlier)
6) Scout 2 ~ Travel Devotion (6th level feat)
7) Scout 3 ~
8) Scout 4 ~ Swift Hunter(bonus feat)
9) Scout 5 ~ to get evasion, Improved Skirmish (9th level feat)
10) Mystic Ranger 4 ~ Endurance (bonus)
11) Mystic Ranger 5
12) Mystic Ranger 6 ~ Sword of the Arcane Order (12th level feat)
13) Mystic Ranger 7 ~ Manyshot (bonus)
14) Mystic Ranger 8
15) Mystic Ranger 9 ~ Evasion (Sacrificied for Spell Reflection), Greater Manyshot (15th level feat)
16) Mystic Ranger 10
17) Mystic Ranger 11
18) Mystic Ranger 12 ~ Improved Precise Shot (Bonus), nemesis? (18th level feat)
19) Highland Stalker 1
20) Highland Stalker 2

Any suggestions?

[Darrin]

FEATS: Point Blank Shot (1st), Precise Shot (Human), Knowledge (Flaw 1), Darkstalker (Flaw 2)


Do you need Darkstalker? Why exactly would your char be hiding?



2) Cloistered Cleric 1 (Magic Domain and Pride Domain?) ~ Knowledge Devotion (sacrificing Knowledge Domain)


Magic domain seems redundant once you have SotAO. Why are you not taking Travel Devotion?



3) Mystic Ranger 1 ~ Weapon Focus [Longbow] (3rd level feat)?


Weapon Focus isn't really necessary in this build, and there are plenty of other ways to get a +1 on attacks. I'd consider Extra Turning here, or maybe Travel Devotion if you're not taking it as a domain.



4) Mystic Ranger 2(Mystic Ranger doesn't get FE until lvl 2) ~ DM Approved Arcane Hunter ACF here for FE [Arcanists]


While undeniably nifty, you're ignoring the second half of Swift Hunter: precision damage against crit-immune enemies. As much as I love Arcane Hunter, I think you're better off taking Undead as your 1st FE, Constructs as your 2nd FE, and Elementals as your 3rd FE (if you get that far).



9) Mystic Ranger 3 ~ Rapid Shot (Bonus: hurts getting it this late), Travel Devotion (9th level feat)


I'd probably move both Rapid Shot and Travel Devotion up much earlier, and put off Improved Skirmish and Evasion until later.



18) Mystic Ranger 12 ~ Improved Precise Shot (Bonus), nemesis? (18th level feat)


MOAR Travel Devotion, or Extra Turning. Woodland Archer would also be good.



2) Cloistered Cleric 1 (Magic Domain and Pride Domain) ~ Knowledge Devotion (sacrificing Knowledge Domain)
3) Mystic Ranger 1 ~ Weapon Focus [Longbow] (3rd level feat)?
4) Mystic Ranger 2(Mystic Ranger doesn't get FE until lvl 2) ~ DM Approved Arcane Hunter ACF here for FE [Arcanists]
5) Mystic Ranger 3 ~ Rapid Shot (Bonus: wish I could get it earlier)


I like this progression much better, although I still think Travel Devotion should be one of your domains, and you should probably ditch Weapon Focus for something else.

[paigeoliver]

Darkstalker???? Your character build isn't really about hiding, physically scouting ahead is rarely a good idea in D&D. When it works it slows the game to a crawl running extra solo encounters. The answer to the question of "What lies ahead of us" is always "An encounter appropriately scaled to the entire party that will eat the scout alive if he is detected". I just don't see this being useful.

I think that 5th scout level is a trap (and the 4th level one is dubious if you can do the build without it). You don't need evasion. You are losing a base attack bonus that you can never get back and putting yourself a level or two behind on your ranger spellcasting and such in order to gain evasion, which you don't need and which the build grants later anyway if you really want it. If you really think longterm then you can grab that 5th scout level at 21st level where it won't cost you a BAB.

Highland Stalker. This is a short sighted choice based on the idea that characters turn into pumpkins at level 20. A character with a class stacking feat like Swift Hunter should never take levels in anything other than those 2 classes except in very limited circumstances. If the game goes epic then you will have wished you stuck with ranger levels.

[MustacheFart]

Do you need Darkstalker? Why exactly would your char be hiding?

You're right. I shouldn't be hiding. I actually made a mistake and had a feat in it's place that I can't even have so I threw that in as I need a replacement for the illegal feat. What should I replace it with?



Magic domain seems redundant once you have SotAO. Why are you not taking Travel Devotion?

I am taking the Magic Domain for three reasons:

1) It fits with the character backstory and his deity
2) It let's me use magic items that require I be an arcane caster such as Eternal Wands.
3) SoTAO just lets me prep wizard spells in my ranger slots. It doesn't make me an arcane caster. My DM has ruled that those spells would be casted as divine spells because of the spell slot they use. I forgot to add that to my first post. I'll update it.


Weapon Focus isn't really necessary in this build, and there are plenty of other ways to get a +1 on attacks. I'd consider Extra Turning here, or maybe Travel Devotion if you're not taking it as a domain.

I agree that Weapon Focus isn't needed but I was completely drawing a blank as to what would suit my build better. The reason I did not take Travel Devotion yet is because I didn't see a point in taking it earlier when I can only make one attack due to not having Rapid Shot yet or an iterative. Why take it before then?


While undeniably nifty, you're ignoring the second half of Swift Hunter: precision damage against crit-immune enemies. As much as I love Arcane Hunter, I think you're better off taking Undead as your 1st FE, Constructs as your 2nd FE, and Elementals as your 3rd FE (if you get that far).

I plan on taking FE (Undead) and I know of the extreme usefulness of it. However, I also know my DM and he's never been an Undead-Heavy type of DM. I figured with Arcanists there would be a lot of crossover. Like undead that cast spells (tons of them)? Constructs that cast spells (not sure on this one)? Elementals that cast spells (also not sure here)?


I'd probably move both Rapid Shot and Travel Devotion up much earlier, and put off Improved Skirmish and Evasion until later.

The earliest I can fit it seems to be level 5.


MOAR Travel Devotion, or Extra Turning. Woodland Archer would also be good.

I actually forgot about my requirement of many turn attempts. Thanks for the reminder!


I like this progression much better, although I still think Travel Devotion should be one of your domains, and you should probably ditch Weapon Focus for something else.

Hmm... what about that Extra Favored Enemy feat? Then I could snag FE (Undead) and Arcanists.

[MustacheFart]

Darkstalker????I think that 5th scout level is a trap (and the 4th level one is dubious if you can do the build without it). You don't need evasion. You are losing a base attack bonus that you can never get back and putting yourself a level or two behind on your ranger spellcasting and such in order to gain evasion, which you don't need and which the build grants later anyway if you really want it. If you really think longterm then you can grab that 5th scout level at 21st level where it won't cost you a BAB.

I forgot you don't like Scouting ahead. Shame because most sneaky characters enjoy doing it. It's a very fun aspect of the game. What a second! I remember in the last game you openly stating that the part should've been scouting ahead at some points instead of just marching straight ahead like a party full of barbarians.


Highland Stalker. This is a short sighted choice based on the idea that characters turn into pumpkins at level 20. A character with a class stacking feat like Swift Hunter should never take levels in anything other than those 2 classes except in very limited circumstances. If the game goes epic then you will have wished you stuck with ranger levels.

Well, the intent was to grab evasion from Scout and Sacrifice the one in Ranger using the ACF that grants you a limited form of Spell Reflect. The chance to reflect back a nasty spell on the enemy caster that either targeted me or even caught me in his spell's radius (ex. Fireball) seemed pretty good.

[Curmudgeon]

Class: LVL 1 Scout

Skills:

Knowledge (Arcane, Dungeoneering, Local, Nature, The Planes, Religion) - 4 ranks each
That's not a legal number of ranks in Knowledge (Arcana), Knowledge (Local), Knowledge (The Planes), or Knowledge (Religion); with cross-class skills you're only going to get 2 ranks. With Cloistered Cleric you'll have all Knowledges as class skills, but only as long as you retain Knowledge domain (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm#knowledgeDomain); as soon as you swap that for Knowledge Devotion you'll lose the granted power. Exactly how soon do you need to make that swap? There's no restriction on when you make that decision, you know.

[paigeoliver]

The type of creatures that darkstalker works against will mostly be encountered indoors (dungeon and cave settings mostly).

Scouting ahead indoors is suicide, as it is far too easy to have your path blocked behind you and then you are dead. Indoor scouting also basically requires darkvision, which this build doesn't have.

Scouting ahead makes sense in certain situations and those situations are normally in an outdoor setting where the scout has a chance of escaping if discovered.


I forgot you don't like Scouting ahead. Shame because most sneaky characters enjoy doing it. It's a very fun aspect of the game. What a second! I remember in the last game you openly stating that the part should've been scouting ahead at some points instead of just marching straight ahead like a party full of barbarians.



Well, the intent was to grab evasion from Scout and Sacrifice the one in Ranger using the ACF that grants you a limited form of Spell Reflect. The chance to reflect back a nasty spell on the enemy caster that either targeted me or even caught me in his spell's radius (ex. Fireball) seemed pretty good.

[Darrin]

I think that 5th scout level is a trap (and the 4th level one is dubious if you can do the build without it). You don't need evasion. You are losing a base attack bonus that you can never get back and putting yourself a level or two behind on your ranger spellcasting and such in order to gain evasion, which you don't need and which the build grants later anyway if you really want it. If you really think longterm then you can grab that 5th scout level at 21st level where it won't cost you a BAB.


The 4th level of Scout is necessary to grab either Swift Hunter or Improved Skirmish without waiting for a feat slot to open up. Other than that, I agree that Evasion can wait until later.



Highland Stalker. This is a short sighted choice based on the idea that characters turn into pumpkins at level 20. A character with a class stacking feat like Swift Hunter should never take levels in anything other than those 2 classes except in very limited circumstances.

The two levels of Highland Stalker are because you get +1d6 Skirmish damage, which is quicker than taking another 4 levels of Ranger. It costs him nothing to get in (he already has all the prereqs) and it's full BAB, so there's no real downside.



I am taking the Magic Domain for three reasons:

1) It fits with the character backstory and his deity
2) It let's me use magic items that require I be an arcane caster such as Eternal Wands.
3) SoTAO just lets me prep wizard spells in my ranger slots. It doesn't make me an arcane caster. My DM has ruled that those spells would be casted as divine spells because of the spell slot they use. I forgot to add that to my first post. I'll update it.


Hmmm. Well, I still think I'd take Travel Devotion over Pride.

Would you maybe consider switching race to Wood Elf? Sehanine Moonbow can get you Travel, Elf (PB Shot) and Knowledge as domains.



Hmm... what about that Extra Favored Enemy feat? Then I could snag FE (Undead) and Arcanists.

Oooo, I like that.

[MustacheFart]

That's not a legal number of ranks in Knowledge (Arcana), Knowledge (Local), Knowledge (The Planes), or Knowledge (Religion); with cross-class skills you're only going to get 2 ranks. With Cloistered Cleric you'll have all Knowledges as class skills, but only as long as you retain Knowledge domain (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm#knowledgeDomain); as soon as you swap that for Knowledge Devotion you'll lose the granted power. Exactly how soon do you need to make that swap? There's no restriction on when you make that decision, you know.


Actually I do have legal ranks in all of them. I have taken the Education feat (sorry mixed up name in first post. I call it the Knowledge feat by bad habit).



Scouting ahead indoors is suicide, as it is far too easy to have your path blocked behind you and then you are dead. Indoor scouting also basically requires darkvision, which this build doesn't have.

Well there are a number of ways to get darkvision pretty easily. I didn't factor it in as I had plans to get it through items/spells if needed. Would the same not offer a means of escape if a path were to get blocked (just playing devil's advocate here).



The two levels of Highland Stalker are because you get +1d6 Skirmish damage, which is quicker than taking another 4 levels of Ranger. It costs him nothing to get in (he already has all the prereqs) and it's full BAB, so there's no real downside.

I think paige was referring to the fact that if this character went Epic I'd have to finish out Highland Stalker (It's a rule made by the DM to prevent abuse of PrC dipping. I left the rule out as it didn't seem applicable to my case. Though I guess I should've mentioned it in case someone threw out an unseen seer/dragon devotee build).


Hmmm. Well, I still think I'd take Travel Devotion over Pride.

Would you maybe consider switching race to Wood Elf? Sehanine Moonbow can get you Travel, Elf (PB Shot) and Knowledge as domains.


I've talked with the DM and it's probably going to be Domains: Magic and Time. This is a custom campaign world so to take something equivalent to Sehanine Moonbow I'd have to alter the build & race a bit, which I don't want to do.

[paigeoliver]

He already started playing the character so a race switch isn't an option and the setting he is playing in doesn't use the stock D&D gods anyway.

Even if you have some sort of escape method (not sure what it would be) indoor scouting is still a death sentence. It often requires opening doors and encounter distances are incredibly close indoors. Outside, you sneak up just close enough to see the enemy camp and then sneak away. Indoors you walk around a corner or open a door and find an encounter capable of challenging the whole party staring you down (better hope you win initiative and are faster than all of them).

[MustacheFart]

Ok so after everyone's advice thus far (thank you very much btw) I am looking at something like this, I think:

2) Cloistered Cleric 1 (Magic Domain and Time Domain) ~ Knowledge Devotion (sacrificing Knowledge Domain)
3) Mystic Ranger 1 ~ FREE FEAT SLOT Perhaps Travel Devotion?
4) Mystic Ranger 2(Mystic Ranger doesn't get FE until lvl 2) ~ Favored Enemy [Undead]
5) Mystic Ranger 3 ~ Rapid Shot (Bonus: wish I could get it earlier)
6) Scout 2 ~ Travel Devotion (6th level feat) or Extra Turning
7) Scout 3 ~
8) Scout 4 ~ Swift Hunter(bonus feat)
9) Mystic Range 4 ~ Endurance (bonus), Improved Skirmish (9th level feat)
10) Mystic Ranger 5
11) Mystic Ranger 6
12) Mystic Ranger 7 ~ Sword of the Arcane Order (12th level feat), Manyshot (bonus)
13) Mystic Ranger 8
14) Mystic Ranger 9 ~ Evasion (Sacrificied for Spell Reflection maybe)
15) Mystic Ranger 10 ~ Greater Manyshot (15th level feat)
16) Mystic Ranger 11
17) Mystic Ranger 12 ~ Improved Precise Shot (Bonus)
18) Mystic Ranger 13 ~ FREE FEAT SLOT
19) Mystic Ranger 14
20) Mystic Ranger 15

I still need a suitable feat replacement for Darkstalker. I'm sort of thinking replace Darkstalker with Travel Devotion, then pick up Extra Turning at level 3, and then take Planar Touchstone (Oxyrhynchus) at level 6 if my DM will allow.

[MustacheFart]

Ok I've gotten approval from my DM on taking Planar Touchstone(Oxyrhynchus) feat so I think I like this:

Race: Human
Class: LVL 1 Scout
Stats (24-point buy due to Tier 1 Cloistered Cleric dip):

STR:10
DEX:14
CON:12
INT: 14
WIS: 12
CHA: 10

Init: +8 (at lvl 1; dex + Imp. Init + Trait)

Skills:

Knowledge (Arcane, Dungeoneering, Local, Nature, The Planes, Religion) - 4 ranks each
Spot - 4 ranks
Listen - 4 ranks
Tumble - 4 ranks

FEATS: Point Blank Shot (1st), Precise Shot (Human), Education (Flaw 1), Travel Devotion (Flaw 2)

Flaws: Feeble (DM won't allow Murky-Eye bypass) and Noncombatant
Trait: Aggressive (+2 Init, -1 AC)

Additional levels:
2) Cloistered Cleric 1 (Magic Domain and Time Domain) ~ Knowledge Devotion (sacrificing Knowledge Domain)
3) Mystic Ranger 1 ~ Extra Turning
4) Mystic Ranger 2(Mystic Ranger doesn't get FE until lvl 2) ~ Favored Enemy [Undead]
5) Mystic Ranger 3 ~ Rapid Shot (Bonus: wish I could get it earlier)
6) Scout 2 ~ Planar Touchstone(Oxyrhynchus)
7) Scout 3 ~
8) Scout 4 ~ Swift Hunter(bonus feat)
9) Mystic Range 4 ~ Endurance (bonus), Improved Skirmish (9th level feat)
10) Mystic Ranger 5
11) Mystic Ranger 6
12) Mystic Ranger 7 ~ Sword of the Arcane Order (12th level feat), Manyshot (bonus)
13) Mystic Ranger 8
14) Mystic Ranger 9 ~ Evasion (bonus)
15) Mystic Ranger 10 ~ Greater Manyshot (15th level feat)
16) Mystic Ranger 11
17) Mystic Ranger 12 ~ Improved Precise Shot (Bonus)
18) Mystic Ranger 13 ~ FREE FEAT SLOT
19) Mystic Ranger 14
20) Mystic Ranger 15

Thoughts?

Also it worth it to get SoTAO first in the build or Improved Skirmish because I could switch them if I wanted.

[paigeoliver]

I would go with sword of the arcane order before improved skirmish.

When this build works at doing damage IT WORKS AT DOING DAMAGE, the improved skirmish is just pushing it over the top.

While the sword of the arcane order feat directly increases the usefulness of your character in general and can help make up for those situations where the build isn't working out as well. (Skirmish immune, super close quarters, etc).

I wouldn't worry too much about not gaining rapid shot until a relatively late level. This build doesn't have the attack roll that your standard plain jane Ranger 2/Fighter X everything focused on bonuses to hit and damage archer build has and thus the rapid shot isn't as useful at lower level.


Ok I've gotten approval from my DM on taking Planar Touchstone(Oxyrhynchus) feat so I think I like this:

Expect to see it on my character next time you gamemaster.

[MustacheFart]

Expect to see it on my character next time you gamemaster.

Just no half-minotaur Illumians....

[Yuukale]

Go travel devotion and you won't worry about manyshot. Just Rapid Shot and be happy. Perhaps swap evasion for Spell Reflection (Complete Mage).

Oh, since you have a free feat slot, expeditious dodge will net you some more AC if you move more during your skirmish.