Can outsiders summon normal folks?

[silverwolfer]

Question...


Can outsiders summon players much like players can summon outsiders?

[elvengunner69]

Question...


Can outsiders summon players much like players can summon outsiders?

Summon Adventurer I

Would be pretty funny if your party got pulled into say the Astral Plane with out wanting to.

[Deaxsa]

Summon Adventurer I

Would be pretty funny if your party got pulled into say the Astral Plane with out wanting to.

what would be even funnier would be the spell "Lesser Adventurer Binding"

adventurers negotiating terms... it's bad enough now that they are only on this side of the deal.

[Amnestic]

Summon Adventurer I

Would be pretty funny if your party got pulled into say the Astral Plane with out wanting to.

More like "Summon Plothook I" :smalltongue:

[tyckspoon]

Usually not; normal people aren't on the Summon Monster/Summon Nature's Ally lists, and Planar Binding/Planar Ally has type restrictions (Elemental or Outsider) that most characters do not meet. Gate can do it, but if you have Gate at your disposal you usually have better options for it than calling a Prime Material humanoid to your service.

(That said, if you happen to be a Planetouched or other Outsider race, you are a potential target for Planar Binding/Planar Ally, and Clerics and other divine-flavored classes could well be suitable servants of their deities to respond to somebody's Planar Ally spell.)

[Kelb_Panthera]

With the possible exception of gate, not usually. As was previously mentioned, most of the calling spells specify an outsider or elemental as their targets. PC's are very rarely of either of those types. Summon spells have specific, nearly exhaustive lists of their available options and few of those options would make a remotely viable PC. There's also the notion that the creatures produced by SM aren't "real" creatures but magical echoes of creatures that are known to exist.

Gate specifies that it can be used to call an extraplanar creature, but this creates an odd rules conundrum. No creature has the extraplanar subtype on its native plane. It's generally assumed that what the spell description means is creatures that have the extraplanar subtype listed in their stat-blocks in the various MM's; in which case no creature native to the material is a valid target. The alternatives are that only creatures that are on some sort of plane-hopping adventure of their own are valid targets which would make any such creature automatically hostile since you're putting his goals in danger by side-tracking him, or that any creature that would be extraplanar on the plane the spell is cast are valid targets, this being the interpretation that makes PC's targettable.

Then there's the fact that Gate says you cannot force unique creatures through it, but fails to define what constitutes a unique creature. There are some creatures that are obviously covered; the archdukes of hell, the demon princes, the celestial hebdomad, Talisid and the 5 companions, etc. as well as creatures like the tarrasque or the adamantine horror; creatures that are specifically called out as the only one of their kind. A tight interpretation of the phrase would have -only- these creatures (and deities) as creatures that can't be forced through the gate but a broader (and IMO more balanced) but no less valid reading has "unique creatures" including anything with levels in a PC class; which would, necessarily, include virtually all PC's.

TL;DR: PC's are almost certainly -not- in any danger of ever being the subject of a calling effect, virtually ever.

[Blarmb]

Well by existing spell RAW, no. However given the general guidelines for creating new spells/effects it's far from unreasonable to assume some forward-thinking outsider has decided to research a "Summon Human" or "Call Material Ally" type spell.

Such powers could even make for relatively interesting part of an adventure provided they were either telegraphed correctly, took place in a context where they results could be undone in a relatively short space of time or both. Or you just a have a player base on board with really weird stuff coming out of left field.

[hamishspence]

Question...


Can outsiders summon players much like players can summon outsiders?

Only when it's funny, in joke D&D comics. Nodwick springs to mind.

[TuggyNE]

Only when it's funny, in joke D&D comics. Nodwick springs to mind.

Yeah, I was thinking the same.

Incidentally, that's why a Summon Humanoid I-IX series would be kinda terrible: no SLAs! :smalltongue:

(More seriously, there was an attempt at making summon hero spells some time ago. There were some methodological challenges, but I think they made decent progress.)

[Erik Vale]

Given from the view of outsiders, they wouldn't be and we would be, I can't see why not? [Outside of raw, which would let you make an outsiders version of the spell]
The porblem is, why would they want to? Ok yeah, disposible minions, but material plane high powers are comparitively fewer and would be weaker [barring say, pun pun] than outsiders [I think. I bet you can prove me wrong] if played with monster intelegence . Never mind, already thought me into a hole by mentioning dragons, abberations and the like.

It would be a good way to gain XP though, given if you die as a summon you just respawn where you were summoned from, ready to go again. {Or maybe it takes a moment. I'll leave that to fluff}

[silverwolfer]

Divine outsider summons clerics of the god they are divine to....??


Servant of Kord angel, summons a level 16 cleric human!

Human uses splash

Splash is super effective against balrog.

[Sgt. Cookie]

A 16th level Cleric has 8th level spells, are you certain that you're not underestimating him?

[Steward]

An evil archdevil with a grudge against a demon or an archon could bind a mortal cleric follower and force that mortal cleric/follower to call forth demons/archons for him to slay. I think 'calling' spells tell the called spirit the identity of the summoner, but from the perspective of the demon/archon they're being called by a fellow worshiper, not an enemy fiend.

[Unusual Muse]

I believe there was some precedent for this sort of thing in the Planescape setting, but I don't recall any details.

[Qwertystop]

I always assumed that the "cannot summon a unique creature" meant you can't summon, say, Bob the Human Wizard, but you can summon "A Human" and then it pulls a random human across, which may or may not be Bob the Human Wizard (probably not). You pick a species, and it can't be any species that is made up entirely of one individual.

I get that this would work better as "specific" instead of "unique", but it just seems to work better to me.

[Phelix-Mu]

But the gate spell says that you can summon a specific individual example of a valid creature if you know its name. So, if humans are game, and the caster knows Bob's name (Bob, just a couple divinations away for a BBEG caster), then Bob is game (provided Bob is a human).

This whole debate makes self-experimentation on one's own racial identity (magically adding templates and such) much more appealing, as eventually you might succeed in becoming "unique" and not have to worry about the exact scope of "unique" in the mind of the DM.

[Qwertystop]

But the gate spell says that you can summon a specific individual example of a valid creature if you know its name. So, if humans are game, and the caster knows Bob's name (Bob, just a couple divinations away for a BBEG caster), then Bob is game (provided Bob is a human).

This whole debate makes self-experimentation on one's own racial identity (magically adding templates and such) much more appealing, as eventually you might succeed in becoming "unique" and not have to worry about the exact scope of "unique" in the mind of the DM.

My reading of it was that that qualified under the "deities and unique creatures are not required to come through" bit. It never actually says that you can't summon uniques, just that they aren't compelled.

So fine, you can cast Gate to summon Bob, just like you can cast Gate to summon Olidamarra (sp?). Either way, the Gate opens next to them, and then you have to hope they go through.

I basically read it as a way to make sure that it allows you to summon an outsider you personally know for help without allowing you to summon the BBEG and no-save no-SR tell him to reveal all his plans and then suicide.

[Slipperychicken]

Epic spells with the Summon seed may summon creatures of any type, from anywhere for +10 to Spellcraft DC. With Permanent, it could be a way to get people as your thralls.

[Phelix-Mu]

My reading of it was that that qualified under the "deities and unique creatures are not required to come through" bit. It never actually says that you can't summon uniques, just that they aren't compelled.

So fine, you can cast Gate to summon Bob, just like you can cast Gate to summon Olidamarra (sp?). Either way, the Gate opens next to them, and then you have to hope they go through.

I basically read it as a way to make sure that it allows you to summon an outsider you personally know for help without allowing you to summon the BBEG and no-save no-SR tell him to reveal all his plans and then suicide.

Right, so going by Kelb's outline here, this would be calling Bob a unique creature, which is fine if that is the DM's ruling.

The only RAW context for unique not equaling anything with a name (which is pretty much every sentient being and many others beside) is the tarrasque example, which implies that Bob, as a human, isn't unique, just like Dora the Deva Explorer isn't unique. (If Dora is just an astral deva, say, even RAI would suggest she is gateable.)

If Bob isn't unique, he can be compelled to come through the gate and do w/e the caster wishes, provided that Bob would have the extraplanar subtype when called by the caster (caster just can't be on Bob's plane of origin, easy enough).

As a side issue, what this means is that BBEG can't be valid targets for gate, since they could be annihilated by a single 17th level caster. Thus, give the BBEG PC class levels, if that is the bar for qualifying as "unique." Otherwise, get ready for some DM fiat.

[Qwertystop]

Right, so going by Kelb's outline here, this would be calling Bob a unique creature, which is fine if that is the DM's ruling.

Sort of. My position is more that uniqueness is based in part on specificity. Any creature that can be distinguished from all other creatures in some way (so anything except maybe Modrons) qualifies as unique in that you can specify it in such a way. However, if there are multiple members of a species, you can call for "A member of species X" and get a random, presumably average one, in which case you're not calling for a unique creature and compulsion works.

[Slipperychicken]

Sort of. My position is more that uniqueness is based in part on specificity. Any creature that can be distinguished from all other creatures in some way (so anything except maybe Modrons) qualifies as unique in that you can specify it in such a way. However, if there are multiple members of a species, you can call for "A member of species X" and get a random, presumably average one, in which case you're not calling for a unique creature and compulsion works.

The idea isn't that "Bob is somehow distinct from his species, and therefore unique, therefore you can't summon him".

It's that "You can elect to summon a member of Bob's species, but it's astronomically improbable that Bob will be the one summoned. You cannot say 'I summon Bob specifically' without some exception given in the spell".

[Qwertystop]

The idea isn't that "Bob is somehow distinct from his species, and therefore unique, therefore you can't summon him".

It's that "You can elect to summon a member of Bob's species, but it's astronomically improbable that Bob will be the one summoned. You cannot say 'I summon Bob specifically' without some exception given in the spell".

Exactly. And if you use the exception given to summon a specific/unique creature to summon Bob, he can choose whether or not to do what you want.

[Phelix-Mu]

Sort of. My position is more that uniqueness is based in part on specificity. Any creature that can be distinguished from all other creatures in some way (so anything except maybe Modrons) qualifies as unique in that you can specify it in such a way. However, if there are multiple members of a species, you can call for "A member of species X" and get a random, presumably average one, in which case you're not calling for a unique creature and compulsion works.

Here you seem to have created a second definition of "unique," though, since you have said that any creature that is distinct from others of its species (i.e., a name or designation is one measure) can be unique, and as long as I don't call a creature of species x out by name, I can compel it to answer the gate.

But if it is unique, by RAW, and is aware that it is unique, then the spell says the creature can disregard the calling effect.

Example: I cast gate and call a generic astral deva. Dora gets chosen by the Universal Random Number Generator, and is targeted by the effect. Dora is unique (by your definition), and thus can refuse. As soon as the gate targets a creature with a name (unique), the creature gets a choice, as per the spell.

Or have I misinterpreted you somehow? If any creature with a name is unique, than almost any creature is immune if they choose to be so (especially by the concept of truenames or some similar system of universal designation, a la what inevitables would use to specify other specific creatures).

[Scow2]

I don't see it so much as a compulsion as the spell just searching for the first random (Usually typical) member of the species being called that has the time and inclination to help you for the specified time. So, technically, everyone who gets called by Gate can decline - but if you don't specify someone, it keeps searching until you get someone who doesn't.

It's why it's not a mind-affecting compulsion.

[Phelix-Mu]

So, a bit of background to those of you that didn't tune in to any of the many permutations of the gating solars threads.

The problem with eventually saying that some generic version of creature x eventually doesn't decline the gate is that there is no reason why any powerful creature would answer a gate, since answering risks that creature being forced to do anything within its power for 1 round/level.

For good aligned creatures, relinquishing control of ones own abilities, thus forfeiting free will and self-determination, is a big no no. Any celestial could not agree to such a calling in good conscience, since they could be forced to do anything once they answer. Even if called by a minion of goodness, that minion could be being manipulated, dominated, deceived, or otherwise duped into forcing the servant of goodness to do something evil. As a good creature, taking that risk is just stupid, unwise, irresponsible, and reprehensible. The responsible choice would be for servant of goodness to refuse the gate and then travel and offer voluntary service if the minion of goodness is genuinely in need, and willing to offer contract should the request exceed the limits of gate free service.

As an evil creature, allowing oneself to be gated and then commanded to do good is extremely distasteful. Theoretically, since gate doesn't send the critter away at the end, the risk might be worth it, but, meh, it's a big risk.

In short, only stupid creatures would answer a gate to be forced to do gods only know what if they had some kind of say in the matter.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I think I see what Scow is getting at.

He's creating two parallel effects. Gate either allows you to call a random member of a valid target species (anything that's not specifically one of a kind) and compel that creature -or- it allows you to call any specific creature you wish but not to compel that uniquely specified creature.

It's a bit of a leap, and I don't think its what was really intended but at least I think I can kinda see it.

[Psyren]

Only when it's funny

and /thread

[Slipperychicken]

Exactly. And if you use the exception given to summon a specific/unique creature to summon Bob, he can choose whether or not to do what you want.

And then you get into funny business when there's an infinite number of Bob's species. Like if his species lives on an infinite plane, or if there are infinite material planes in the setting.

Probability to summon Bob specifically = [1 Bob]/[Infinity of Bob's species] = Zero. Bob himself is completely safe from being summoned, unless someone specifically summons him.

[Felandria]

Yeah, I'd imagine unless you're a member of an unusual race, the odds would be staggering.

It would be really funny, though, if you were at an inn and the barkeep just poofed away because he got randomly summoned.

[Qwertystop]

And then you get into funny business when there's an infinite number of Bob's species. Like if his species lives on an infinite plane, or if there are infinite material planes in the setting.

Probability to summon Bob specifically = [1 Bob]/[Infinity of Bob's species] = Zero. Bob himself is completely safe from being summoned, unless someone specifically summons him.

Not quite. It's infinitely small, but it's nonzero. Otherwise you could expand that logic for each individual and say that nobody can ever be summoned.

[The Glyphstone]

And then you get into funny business when there's an infinite number of Bob's species. Like if his species lives on an infinite plane, or if there are infinite material planes in the setting.

Probability to summon Bob specifically = [1 Bob]/[Infinity of Bob's species] = Zero. Bob himself is completely safe from being summoned, unless someone specifically summons him.

On the other hand, if at least one creature capable of casting the Summon Human spell is also a resident of an infinite plane, then the Summon Human spell will be cast an infinite number of times, so [Bob]/Infinity * Infinity = 1, and Bob is guaranteed to be summoned at least once.

Infinity is weird.

[Psyren]

And then you get into funny business when there's an infinite number of Bob's species. Like if his species lives on an infinite plane, or if there are infinite material planes in the setting.

Probability to summon Bob specifically = [1 Bob]/[Infinity of Bob's species] = Zero. Bob himself is completely safe from being summoned, unless someone specifically summons him.

There are infinite demons, and we summon them all the time. Someone's "Bob" must be among the ones that got brought over.

[lunar2]

"Unique" does not mean specific. it does not mean class levels. it refers to those creatures that are not members of a general race.

the tarrasque is a unique creature that is not a member of any species. there is only 1 tarrasque.

bob the balor is not unique. he is a specific balor, but that doesn't make him a unique creature.

having class leves does not make you unique (really, you think you're the only human fighter 1 in the entire universe?).

[Psyren]

"Unique" does not mean specific. it does not mean class levels. it refers to those creatures that are not members of a general race.

the tarrasque is a unique creature that is not a member of any species. there is only 1 tarrasque.

bob the balor is not unique. he is a specific balor, but that doesn't make him a unique creature.

having class leves does not make you unique (really, you think you're the only human fighter 1 in the entire universe?).

Well, if you want to get technical then everyone is indeed unique thanks to Truenames :smalltongue: that includes Bob the Balor and sundry, especially if a Fiendbinder happens to know his name.

[Slipperychicken]

Not quite. It's infinitely small, but it's nonzero. Otherwise you could expand that logic for each individual and say that nobody can ever be summoned.

And now I remember why I had to re-take Calc I :smallsigh:

[Qwertystop]

I say any creature capable of being distinguished from any other creature is unique. There is only one George the Gibbering Orb who is 5√3i years old, has fought eighteen trees, lives in rbgwjonmpwegm-87, and various other qualifiers. Thus, George is unique. So is every other everybody ever.

[Psyren]

I say any creature capable of being distinguished from any other creature is unique. There is only one George the Gibbering Orb who is 5√3i years old, has fought eighteen trees, lives in rbgwjonmpwegm-87, and various other qualifiers. Thus, George is unique. So is every other everybody ever.

Indeed, and this is explicitly how truenames work.

[lunar2]

but he is not unique for the purposes of the gate spell. the tarrasque is the only statted creature in core that is unique.

if there is another member of your race or kind in the entire multiverse, you are not unique.

the gate spell refers both to particular individuals, and to unique creatures. the fact that it refers to both means that they are not the same. being a particular individual does not make you a unique creature for the purposes of the spell.

[Psyren]

Oh, I thought we meant in general, not in terms of Gate specifically.

But if we're on the subject, the Truename Binding line of spells can call specific individuals (using their personal truenames.)

[Kelb_Panthera]

"Unique" does not mean specific. it does not mean class levels. it refers to those creatures that are not members of a general race.

the tarrasque is a unique creature that is not a member of any species. there is only 1 tarrasque.

bob the balor is not unique. he is a specific balor, but that doesn't make him a unique creature.

having class leves does not make you unique (really, you think you're the only human fighter 1 in the entire universe?).That's a valid interpretation. It doesn't invalidate any other interpretation though.

Unique is not a defined key-word in the context of RAW. It means only what it means in common english. One of the definitions of unique is "highly unusual; extraordinary; rare." Anything with PC classes fits this description.

In humanoid society, PC's make up less than 10% of the population and any specific class makes up less than 2% of that, thanks to all the PC classes printed. Even in core only a PC class only makes up about 10% of that 10%. I'd say that less than 1% of a population is rare enough to consider any member of one of those classes unique.

Since monster advancement is inherently stunted by racial HD and LA, I'd say that any member of a non-humanoid race with -any- class levels would qualify for much the same reason.


Well, if you want to get technical then everyone is indeed unique thanks to Truenames :smalltongue: that includes Bob the Balor and sundry, especially if a Fiendbinder happens to know his name.

Technically this only includes creatures of int 3 or greater but otherwise is correct.

[lunar2]

That's a valid interpretation. It doesn't invalidate any other interpretation though.

Unique is not a defined key-word in the context of RAW. It means only what it means in common english. One of the definitions of unique is "highly unusual; extraordinary; rare." Anything with PC classes fits this description.

In humanoid society, PC's make up less than 10% of the population and any specific class makes up less than 2% of that, thanks to all the PC classes printed. Even in core only a PC class only makes up about 10% of that 10%. I'd say that less than 1% of a population is rare enough to consider any member of one of those classes unique.

Since monster advancement is inherently stunted by racial HD and LA, I'd say that any member of a non-humanoid race with -any- class levels would qualify for much the same reason.



Technically this only includes creatures of int 3 or greater but otherwise is correct.

unique is a legacy term, iirc. it really does refer to one of a kind creatures like the tarrasque, archfiends, and celestial paragons.

[Kelb_Panthera]

unique is a legacy term, iirc. it really does refer to one of a kind creatures like the tarrasque, archfiends, and celestial paragons.

Legacy has no rules weight. It means nothing at all to those who haven't played previous editions.

It's an explanation for why you would choose to interpret it that way but it doesn't automatically validate that interpretation above any other as the only correct interpretation.

[lunar2]

well, yes, you can freely interpret what is printed however you want even if you know exactly what the writers meant. doesn't mean you should.

[Kelb_Panthera]

well, yes, you can freely interpret what is printed however you want even if you know exactly what the writers meant. doesn't mean you should.

The purpose of making a new edition is to change the old rules. That "unique" was intended that way is only conjecture.

Perhaps they deliberately chose not to define unique, precisely because they wanted it to be open to DM interpretation or perhaps the fact that unique isn't defined is an oversight. We can't really know in this case, since there's nothing to suggest intent.

[Jack_Simth]

It would be a good way to gain XP though, given if you die as a summon you just respawn where you were summoned from, ready to go again. {Or maybe it takes a moment. I'll leave that to fluff}Actually, for summoning spells, it's spelled out as part of the Summoning Subschool (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#summoning):
A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower. It is not really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it can’t be summoned again.

[Phelix-Mu]

but he is not unique for the purposes of the gate spell. the tarrasque is the only statted creature in core that is unique.

if there is another member of your race or kind in the entire multiverse, you are not unique.

the gate spell refers both to particular individuals, and to unique creatures. the fact that it refers to both means that they are not the same. being a particular individual does not make you a unique creature for the purposes of the spell.

The problem with this definition of unique in regards to the gate spell is that it does turn gate into a call PC/BBEG. If only deities, quasi-deities, and tarrasque-ish critters can refuse the gate, then you can compel any plot-related creature to do whatever to bypass the plot. The BBEG caster should go to the Astral Plane and summon the PCs, one at a time, have them drop their equipment, and order them to fail the save on a save or die spell of the BBEG's choice.

The only other way that I can see to avoid this problem is to clarify the "extraplanar" part of gate, since the nebulous nature of the extraplanar subtype means that any being can be a target as long as the caster of the gate is not currently located on the target's home plane. Thus, wizard x can go to another plane, call Elminster, direct him to surrender all items he is carrying, drop all immunities and SR, and fail a save v programmed amnesia.

Alternatively, create a way to bypass the existing extraplanar subtype. Perhaps some kind of ritual to become a "citizen of the multiverse," someone with no home plane. With no home plane, you can never be native or extraplanar.

[lunar2]

The problem with this definition of unique in regards to the gate spell is that it does turn gate into a call PC/BBEG. If only deities, quasi-deities, and tarrasque-ish critters can refuse the gate, then you can compel any plot-related creature to do whatever to bypass the plot. The BBEG caster should go to the Astral Plane and summon the PCs, one at a time, have them drop their equipment, and order them to fail the save on a save or die spell of the BBEG's choice.

The only other way that I can see to avoid this problem is to clarify the "extraplanar" part of gate, since the nebulous nature of the extraplanar subtype means that any being can be a target as long as the caster of the gate is not currently located on the target's home plane. Thus, wizard x can go to another plane, call Elminster, direct him to surrender all items he is carrying, drop all immunities and SR, and fail a save v programmed amnesia.

Alternatively, create a way to bypass the existing extraplanar subtype. Perhaps some kind of ritual to become a "citizen of the multiverse," someone with no home plane. With no home plane, you can never be native or extraplanar.

it may be broken, but i think it's pretty clear that that is what was meant. WotC does it again.

[Blarmb]

I say any creature capable of being distinguished from any other creature is unique. There is only one George the Gibbering Orb who is 5√3i years old, has fought eighteen trees, lives in rbgwjonmpwegm-87, and various other qualifiers. Thus, George is unique. So is every other everybody ever.

Well actually this isn't really true if we're dealing with an actually infinitely large realm of existance. Here is the rub, in a suffciently large set you're always going to get repetition.

For example take a let's the the concept of 3 character long strings of the numbers 1-9.

001
010
008
800
870
087
888
525
053

etc.. etc.. etc..

Now let's say you generate an infinite number of them randomly. Not only will every given combination repeat, but every combination will repeat an infinite number of times. Sure there are lot of possible combinations but the combinations are finite, go down the list long enough and you'll find a match. Even if you weight it heavily such that some numbers occur much more heavily than others you'll still see repeats.

Now let's look at humans and assume as per the rules, material plane is of infinite size.

It's a plain fact that there are only so many ways you can put a human together. They take up a certain amount of space and are made out of finite number of possible building blocks (atoms and such). It's true that while the of number of possible arrangements of "Human" is quite large it's still finite.

Of course the same is true for the space around the space we're placing the human in. That is to say there are only so many combinations of matter that can exist in say 1 meter cubed. It's quite large mind but it's still finite. So we have a finite number of combinations of human, surrounded by a finite number of combinations of stuff surrounding him. Indeed you can extend this out to really an area of any size, that space can be arranged so many ways (this includes any combinations of humans or other objects etc..)

In addition if two systems are in the exact same state, and follow the exact same rules they'll play out the exact same way. Since the total number of possible states for any area is finite, so are the states that could follow from those state.

As outlined above in an infinitely large space arrangements of that space will repeat, so of course the states that could follow from those arrangements must repeat as well.

This means for every "Bob" who was born in "In Zokka Galaxy, in the star system brath, on the fifth moon of the fourth planet, at exactly 2:39.2921118am local time on september the 8th 1443, to mary and joe sluggin's, in the town of torgos, while a dog was barking outside"

there are an infinite number more bobs who were born "In Zokka Galaxy, in the star system brath, on the fifth moon of the fourth planet, at exactly 2:39.2921118am local time on september the 8th 1443, to mary and joe sluggin's, in the town of torgos, while a dog was barking outside"

In addition for each of those "Bobs" there will be an infinite number more bobs for whom all of history up until that point had played out the same, and will play out the same after that. As well as infinite repeats on every possible variation of history up until that point, and every possible way history could play out after that point.

As the possible arrangements of space in the infinite plane invariably repeat.

I'm not really sure what value the above has in the context of summoning, but there you go.

[lunar2]

exactly. the only unique creatures are those actually called out as unique. there is only 1 tarrasque. there are an infinite number of 20th level wizards of every possible build.

[Synovia]

Well by existing spell RAW, no. However given the general guidelines for creating new spells/effects it's far from unreasonable to assume some forward-thinking outsider has decided to research a "Summon Human" or "Call Material Ally" type spell.

Such powers could even make for relatively interesting part of an adventure provided they were either telegraphed correctly, took place in a context where they results could be undone in a relatively short space of time or both. Or you just a have a player base on board with really weird stuff coming out of left field.


Agree here. There's nothing by RAW that would really do it, but as a DM, you have to realize that almost everything was written from a "Stuff the players can do" perspective.

I don't see any reason why an outsider couldn't come up with the equivalent spells.

[Synovia]

The problem with this definition of unique in regards to the gate spell is that it does turn gate into a call PC/BBEG. If only deities, quasi-deities, and tarrasque-ish critters can refuse the gate, then you can compel any plot-related creature to do whatever to bypass the plot. The BBEG caster should go to the Astral Plane and summon the PCs, one at a time, have them drop their equipment, and order them to fail the save on a save or die spell of the BBEG's choice.


Gate specifically says

"Second, you may then call a particular individual or kind of being through the gate,"

So I don't think the "Anybody with a name is excluded" works. It specifically says you can pick someone.


By naming a particular being or kind of being as

It specifically separates "kind of being" from "partiular being" or "particular individual". That seems to me like its allowing you to pick "bob the wizard".


If you choose to call a kind of creature instead of a known individual you may call either a single creature

It seems pretty clear to me that you can call a specific individual. The only thing that is unclear is the word "unique" in the beings that can refuse. The rule doesn't make any sense as "any specific being" so it has to be something else. The "Tarrasque and Gods can refuse" thinking is the only one that makes sense.

Now, Bob the Wizard can't be summoned because hes not an extraplanar being, but thats the only think that I see in the spell that keeps him from being summoned.

[TuggyNE]

It seems pretty clear to me that you can call a specific individual. The only thing that is unclear is the word "unique" in the beings that can refuse. The rule doesn't make any sense as "any specific being" so it has to be something else. The "Tarrasque and Gods can refuse" thinking is the only one that makes sense.

You're completely ignoring the idea that PC classes could make a creature unique, and that makes me sad.

[Phelix-Mu]

Now, Bob the Wizard can't be summoned because hes not an extraplanar being, but thats the only think that I see in the spell that keeps him from being summoned.

Right, I agree that the spell is as Synovia says, barring an alternate DM interpretation of unique (and since unique is poorly defined, DM interpretation is needed).

The problem is that Bob is extraplanar on any plane besides his plane of origin. So Bob's ex-wife can go to Astral Plane, gate Bob, and force him to lick her feet, sign over all his worldly possessions, burn his spellbooks (provided they are with Bob at the time), and otherwise do w/e she wants.

In short, the extraplanar requirement is no requirement at all. The spell, as written, has the potential to end plot-related conflicts in a few short minutes. Not to mention, high level wizards would be an endangered species, as any high level wiz that was getting close to being able to gate would be gated by rivals, who would command the gated wizard to effectively suicide or w/e (drop SR, fail saves, drop equipment, do the hokey pokey).

The alternative to the gate spell breaking the plot is that everyone and their cousin packs some kind of item/ritual/spell contingency that makes them immune to it. Contingent dismissal on self when gated is the easiest solution I can think of.

Personally, I will be rewriting the gate to remove some of the vagueness and remove the world-altering potential of the spell. Not really an ideal solution, but as written it is practically unusable without implying the kind of use that reduces the caster PCs to some kind of armchair problem-solver (even more so than is otherwise the case)..."why work when Mr. Solar can do it for me?"

[lunar2]

or, simply interpret extraplanar to mean creatures with the extraplanar subtype.

bob the wizard only has the extraplanar subtype when he is not on the material plane. therefore, he can only be gated if he is not on the material plane. as long as he is on the material (and not in his personal demiplane) he can't be gated.

bob the balor, on the other hand, has the extraplanar subtype no matter what plane he is on, and so can be gated from anywhere.

[TuggyNE]

bob the balor, on the other hand, has the extraplanar subtype no matter what plane he is on, and so can be gated from anywhere.

That's incorrect; a creature only has the Extraplanar subtype when it's on a plane that it isn't native to. That's what that subtype means. (The listings for Outsiders and such-like explicitly mention that they have the Extraplanar subtype because it's assumed the PCs will be interacting with summoned or called examples primarily.)

[Jack_Simth]

It's a plain fact that there are only so many ways you can put a human together. They take up a certain amount of space and are made out of finite number of possible building blocks (atoms and such). It's true that while the of number of possible arrangements of "Human" is quite large it's still finite.I disagree. Much of reality is analog. There are aspects which seem digital - such as the distance of an electron from the proton - but to my knowledge there has yet to be any form of demonstration that distances between atomic units (at least those not molecularly bound...) are not capable of existing in the set of positive real numbers (in the mathematical sense). And... well, there's an infinity of numbers between 1 and 2.... and between 1.0 and 1.1... and between 1.00 and 1.01... et cetera.

So... no, it's *not* necessary that there's any repetition at all, even with infinity... although the distinction might get a bit petty.

[lunar2]

That's incorrect; a creature only has the Extraplanar subtype when it's on a plane that it isn't native to. That's what that subtype means. (The listings for Outsiders and such-like explicitly mention that they have the Extraplanar subtype because it's assumed the PCs will be interacting with summoned or called examples primarily.)

and you are correct. so, you can't call a specific creature unless it is not on its home plane. there. all creatures are safe from gate as long as they are at home. gate is no longer (quite as) broken.

[Phelix-Mu]

So perhaps we devolve a bit into semantics here, but an equally valid reading is that the term extraplanar in the gate description refers to "creature not native to the plane you are on when you cast gate." This allows us to conflate extraplanar subtype with the set of acceptable targets, because the acceptable targets all acquire the extraplanar subtype when arriving on the plane the caster is on. If the target wasn't extraplanar, it isn't a valid target, but that doesn't mean that it needs the extraplanar subtype before arriving, because the "extraplanar" in the spell description doesn't reference the subtype. It just means "not originating on the same plane as the caster is located on when casting."

Alternatively, the term in the spell might mean "not currently on the plane the caster is on," but that is even more vague and includes most of everything, even Bob when Bob is getting a chemical peel at a githzerai spa in Limbo, as well as including Bob when Bob is at home and the caster is not on Bob's home plane.

[TuggyNE]

Would gate be underpowered if you restricted it to making portals, and allowed it to make permanent portals for XP? (I.e., blowing the (calling) aspect away entirely.)


and you are correct. so, you can't call a specific creature unless it is not on its home plane. there. all creatures are safe from gate as long as they are at home. gate is no longer (quite as) broken.

Unfortunately, it's now broken to some extent in the other way, and it's still not completely unusable for crazy shenanigans. So it's simultaneously under- and overpowered, which is seriously uncool. (That is: the range of creatures you can call is sharply limited in many cases, and generally calls only those creatures most likely to want to avoid it.)


So perhaps we devolve a bit into semantics here, but an equally valid reading is that the term extraplanar in the gate description refers to "creature not native to the plane you are on when you cast gate." This allows us to conflate extraplanar subtype with the set of acceptable targets, because the acceptable targets all acquire the extraplanar subtype when arriving on the plane the caster is on. If the target wasn't extraplanar, it isn't a valid target, but that doesn't mean that it needs the extraplanar subtype before arriving, because the "extraplanar" in the spell description doesn't reference the subtype. It just means "not originating on the same plane as the caster is located on when casting."

That's possible, especially given how careless WotC was with synonyms and keyword reuse; it's probably closest to usable, actually. (L-E-V-E-L, anyone?)


Alternatively, the term in the spell might mean "not currently on the plane the caster is on," but that is even more vague and includes most of everything, even Bob when Bob is getting a chemical peel at a githzerai spa in Limbo, as well as including Bob when Bob is at home and the caster is not on Bob's home plane.

Yeah, that's the high-shenaniganry version. :smalltongue:

[Phelix-Mu]

Yeah, that time machine. Definitely gonna have to go back and apply some actual copy editing skills to WotC's handiwork.

In many places, it literally seems like the designer was at home on the weekend, toiling over his/her laptop to finish this bit of rules description. Tough, real tough. So it's understandable when the designer fell asleep in the midst of a crucial bit, just so stressful.

The designer's toddler toddles up, and does a little bit of improv rules design while Mommy/Daddy is sleeping. Nothing much, just finishes that section, mimicking the skills of an actual English speaker, but without any of the critical thinking skills that go with it. After all, the laptop is a pretty toy, lots of buttons to push.

Waking up, the designer was slightly confused. "When did I finish writing this part of the rules?" he/she wonders. "Hmmm, oh well. At least it's done!"

:smallbiggrin: Or maybe I'm being too harsh. After all, lots was printed, many many writers, deadlines...it's a hard world.

Back to the OP, though, my reading of extraplanar still allows Bob calling from, say, the Astral Plane.... To fix that, "unique" needs to be addressed, and as written, that seems to be an issue best handled by individual DMs. The version that goes by "unique"= tarrasque is like Plot Kitty in a Box. Available courtesy of ACME, Inc, irritating DMs since 1890. Yet still astonishingly RAW.

[Psyren]

Would gate be underpowered if you restricted it to making portals, and allowed it to make permanent portals for XP? (I.e., blowing the (calling) aspect away entirely.)

It would be pretty weak for a 9th. Sure it would be more accurate than Plane Shift, but I'd rather blow two 5th-level slots (PS + Teleport) than one 9th, especially when I can do one and the cleric can do the other.

To balance Gate, just make the Outsider demand payment for every task, including short tasks like combat. And any attempt to coerce it, enslave it, harm it or otherwise subvert the deal cancels the spell immediately. You either end up with plot-hooks galore (win) or PCs that will only use the spell as a last resort (win.) Also, the HD of monsters that you can bring through a Gate should be much more limited - nobody should be able to port in Abominations and Aspects pre-epic.

[Phelix-Mu]

It would be pretty weak for a 9th. Sure it would be more accurate than Plane Shift, but I'd rather blow two 5th-level slots (PS + Teleport) than one 9th, especially when I can do one and the cleric can do the other.

To balance Gate, just make the Outsider demand payment for every task, including short tasks like combat. And any attempt to coerce it, enslave it, harm it or otherwise subvert the deal cancels the spell immediately. You either end up with plot-hooks galore (win) or PCs that will only use the spell as a last resort (win.) Also, the HD of monsters that you can bring through a Gate should be much more limited - nobody should be able to port in Abominations and Aspects pre-epic.

*gangster voice* "This kid here sure is smart, Johnny. Real smart."

I like the suggestions for fixing it. I'm still contemplating my rewrite, and a fellow player in a campaign I am a player in atm may soon have some nice opportunities to abuse the as-written gate. We'll see what happens, but I hope to at least keep it useful while reigning it in a bit, and removing the heaps of vagueness.