3.x Soulbow Questions

[zilonox]

Despite the class being considered sub-optimal, I've wanted to play a Soulbow for quite some time - and now I have a chance to. I'll be joining a campaign that is about to start at 1st level, and pretty much all 3.x material is allowed, even 3rd party stuff. Pretty much the only rule regarding source material is that the latest version must be used (in cases like WotC that tend to update/revise/errata), and published material will be greatly prefered over purely homebrew stuff (though the GM does recognize that there is a rather blurry line between "homebrew" and "published" when it comes to 3.x).

With that in mind, I was looking to make my soulbow as SAD as possible using various tips I've found scattereed about the web. But in combining several of these tips, I've come up with what I feel are "iffy" situations and I wanted to ask the learned folks here about how they might interpret these situations so I can be prepared if my GM has questions.

My thought was to maximize dependence on WIS using the following:

Elf (whichever sub-race gives a wis bonus - still need to research this)
Zen Archery feat for Wis to hit
2 levels of Ranger for Moon-Warded Ranger for Wis to AC
While I'm at it, take elf substitution level for Favored Enemy buff ("Servants of Lolth") - there is a high probability of encountering drow
Serenity feat for Wis to saves
2 levels of Paladin to take elf subsitution to get Ranged Smite
Shiba Protector for it's 1st level goodies


So, my main question has to deal with the paladin aspect. I really dislike the base paladin, but there are some alternatives that I don't mind. If I were to take, say, Paladin of Freedom for example, would I sitll be able to use the elf's 2nd level racial substitution? Both Paladin and PoF have Smite Evil as an ability at 2nd level. What if I went with a more extreme difference? Say Paladin of Slaughter? PoS has Smite Good instead of Smite Evil. The text of the elf substituion says they may use "...Smite Evil only with a straightbow...". My concern here is that it specifically states "Smite Evil" instead of "Smite ability." Obviously I plan on asking my DM if would use the second wording, but I wanted to see what thoughts might be offered here about that.

Also, even if I went just straight elf Paladin, would the Ranged Smite work with the Soulbow? The Soulbow says it's arrows are effectively fired from a long bow, even though there isn't one physically present.

I don't see a lot of talk about 3rd party sources around here, but does anyone know of a 3rd party option that would help the Soulbow beyond what I have here (or even instead of - I'm not completely locked into this build).

Thank you for your time!

Z

[Kelb_Panthera]

To the best of my knowledge, and I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong, there are no elf subraces with a wisdom bonus. There're precious few PC viable races with a wisdom bonus at all.

That out of the way, if you're using the UA paladins then you have to realize that the PHB paladin is the paladin of honor variant. Switching that to paladin of freedom should have no adverse effect on your ability to take the ranged smite ACF. However, I believe there's a ranged smite FEAT somewhere. This would allow you to both avoid being an elf and avoid any confusion on the weapon used since the feat version of the ability doesn't care what your ranged weapon is.

Since, IIRC, the soulbow's mind arrows are treated in all ways as though they were fired from a bow, up to and including for the purposes of things like weapon focus, the elf sub-level's ranged smite should work with them just fine.

[toapat]

In order:

Elf: there is no wisdom granting subrace.

Zen Archery: Its a massive trap

Wis to AC: can be obtained from a belt

Smiting Arrow variant (Dragon magazine) + Paladin of Freedom: Ok, but not worth it

[Kuulvheysoon]

In order:

Elf: there is no wisdom granting subrace.

Zen Archery: Its a massive trap

Wis to AC: can be obtained from a belt

Smiting Arrow variant (Dragon magazine) + Paladin of Freedom: Ok, but not worth it

...really? Interesting that you think that. Care to explain your reasoning?

[toapat]

...really? Interesting that you think that. Care to explain your reasoning?

archery, in any form, even that of soulbow, relies heavily on feat investment, that feat investment itself relies heavily on having an exceptionally high dexterity score, not on wisdom. while it helps alot in terms of opening options, it presents something that doesnt work.

[tyckspoon]

archery, in any form, even that of soulbow, relies heavily on feat investment, that feat investment itself relies heavily on having an exceptionally high dexterity score, not on wisdom. while it helps alot in terms of opening options, it presents something that doesnt work.

I'm not sure what you're referring to here. The only major archery feat I know of that requires an exceptional Dex is Manyshot (and its Greater improvement), but if that isn't going to be a key part of your tactics than you only really need Dex 13 for Rapid Shot, which is not an especially burdensome number to achieve.

[Morcleon]

archery, in any form, even that of soulbow, relies heavily on feat investment, that feat investment itself relies heavily on having an exceptionally high dexterity score, not on wisdom. while it helps alot in terms of opening options, it presents something that doesnt work.

With the soulbow, you don't need as many of the standard feats, as you can get seeking (replaces precise shot/imp precise shot), and you also get a total of 5 bonus feats. Zen Archery lets you get the stat that you get for damage to to-hit as well.

Also, a lot of the better archery feats only require Dex 15 or so, which is easily obtainable through either a magic item or just lucky rolling/proper stat assignment.


I'm not sure what you're referring to here. The only major archery feat I know of that requires an exceptional Dex is Manyshot (and its Greater improvement), but if that isn't going to be a key part of your tactics than you only really need Dex 13 for Rapid Shot, which is not an especially burdensome number to achieve.

Now, manyshot is the real trap for soulbow. Since TWF is a viable option, you aren't going to be using standard actions too much, as you want a full attack. :smallwink:

[silverwolfer]

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872658/The_Soulknife_Handbook

[zilonox]

Thank you for the replies. Not to second guess anyone, but I was sure that there was a elven subrace for every stat. I've exhausted my sources and have to admit defeat in finding one with a Wis bonus, just as several of you fine folk here had already said.

I wanted to address a few things that were mentioned though.

toapat mentioned that Wis to AC can be obtained from a belt. One thing I did not mention in my OP was that we were starting at ECL2 and we're more likely than not going to be stuck with magical treasure that we find/make. While the world is not low magic, we will be stuck in a place for a long time that just does not have a magic shop. This is why I was thinking of using a psionic class (or, pseudo-psionic in this case). That way, I don't have to be dependent on luck to advance my combat effectiveness.

Morcleon mentioned that TWF as a viable option for the Soulbow. How does this work exactly if I'm shooting out mind-arrows?

Lastly, thank you silverwolfer for the link to the handbook. :)

[Morcleon]

Morcleon mentioned that TWF as a viable option for the Soulbow. How does this work exactly if I'm shooting out mind-arrows?


You must have one hand free to create and project a mind arrow.


Feats that grant additional attacks, such as Rapid Shot, allow you to create additional semisolid arrows of psychic energy as needed to make additional attacks.

Thus, you need 1 hand free to make an arrow. With TWF, you can make an arrow, and thus an attack, with each hand. If you get Imp TWF, then you can make another attack with your off-hand, and so on and so forth with Greater TWF.

[Psyren]

archery, in any form, even that of soulbow, relies heavily on feat investment, that feat investment itself relies heavily on having an exceptionally high dexterity score, not on wisdom. while it helps alot in terms of opening options, it presents something that doesnt work.

I don't think 14 Dex is an unreasonable start for a dedicated archer. By the time the Dex investment becomes more substantial than that, you can afford dex-boosting items (moreso since your weapon has zero impact on your WBL), so it's still moot. Hell, even Vow of Poverty's dex bonuses kick in by then.

Between Feat Soulknife (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a) and Soulbow itself, you can end up with as many bonus feats by the end of Soulbow as a straight Fighter of the same level, all of which can go to archery, and you have a much better weapon to use them with. Soulbow is fine.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

If you're going Soulbow with Zen Archery you'll also want to dip Shiba Protector. IIRC Kensai can give you Force (ignore all DR and Wind Wall) and/or Seeking (ignore concealment), which makes your shtick very hard to negate. Solid, very-reliable damage (and that's about it) puts Soulbow squarely into T4.

[Spuddles]

Lesser Aasimar has +2 cha +2 wis, LA 0.
The Uldra, from Frostburn, is an LA +1, small, and gets like -2 str, +2 dex, +2 wis. Is also a fey.
The template half-minotaur is LA +1, changes your size to large, gives +2 wis, -2 dex, and a total of +12 to str. Works great for zen archers.

[Morcleon]

If you're going Soulbow with Zen Archery you'll also want to dip Shiba Protector. IIRC Kensai can give you Force (ignore all DR and Wind Wall) and/or Seeking (ignore concealment), which makes your shtick very hard to negate. Solid, very-reliable damage (and that's about it) puts Soulbow squarely into T4.

Shiba Protector has a bunch of crappy prereq feats though. :smalltongue:

Seeking can already be obtained through standard soulbow. Use Kensai to get Splitting and Force. Doubles your attacks, and ignores DR and wind wall.

[Psyren]

Buomman from PH are also +2 Wis (-2 Cha.) They make good psionic classes as the vow of silence doesn't interfere.

[zilonox]

Thanks for the racial tips Spuddles and Psyren. I was looking at trying to make the character as SAD as possible. One way I was looking to do that was to get Wis to saves via a couple of levels of Paladin. The elf racial sub to Paladin that grants ranged smite looked like a nice bonus, which is why I was looking for a Wis-bump elvish sub-race. In fact, it was a question about the ranged smite that prompted me to start this thread in the first place. :smallsmile:

GoodbyeSoberDay, I had planned on taking Shiba as mentioned in my opening post. :smallbiggrin: Though, Morcleon does have a point (and thank you for explaining the TWF also!).

[Person_Man]

Since homebrew might be on the table, you may wish to look at my War Soul (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156441). It's basically a Tier 3 Soulknife + Soulborn. The key ability is that at level 1 you get access to a Soul Weapon, which can basically be any weapon or ammunition. (Unlike the Soulknife, which is saddled with a mental short sword and lacks free draw until level 5, which screws you over at low levels if you want to play as a ranged or thrown weapon build).

For non-homebrew, I would suggest a Dex/Wis based Swordsage 2/Soulknife 2/Swordsage 1/Soulknife X. Soulknife is garbage. But by sandwiching it between a much better class, you'll have some useful Wis based maneuver and stances to work with. But at least your Saving Throws will be slightly higher thanks to multi-classing, and Wild Talent will give you access to psionic Feats.

Don't bother with any archery based Feats until you hit level 6. Most of them suck anyway, and give you fairly mediocre benefits. (+1 to hit, one extra attack, etc. Precise Shot is probably the only worthwhile one). You'll get them as bonus Feats with Soulknife.

And don't bother with Zen archery or other X to Y stuff until you get to much higher levels. If your Str, Dex, and Wis are all in the 14-18 range, its not worth spending a Feat to get a +2ish to-hit or Saves or whatever.

Also, note there's nothing in the rules preventing you from shooting your Mind Arrow out of a regular magic bow. This is very important, because magical effects from enchanted bows and enchanted ammo are cumulative (though enchantments and bonuses of the same exact type do not stack). So you can buy a Flaming bow and Frost Mind Arrows and shoot Flaming Frost attacks. This is particularly important at high levels if you want to keep your damage relevant.