Making an Arena Combat Sorcerer -- how to win in the first round?

[Gavinfoxx]

Hi there... I am, for a game, making an Arena Combat Sorcerer. The arena will be a free for all, with several enemies.

A couple of specific rules, he is doing a hunger games sort of thing... everyone starts on a dias, some of their gear is gone in a pile further away...

I'm level 18, with 440k wbl, and some of the gear might be randomly removed from my person and put in the pile. Not everyone else will be level 18.

Now. I don't just want to win, I want to win on the first round, before anyone else can do anything! Like first round, before initiative is rolled, contingency, celerity, time stop, gate, lay down a bunch of spells where everyone is standing, win before ANYTHING HAPPENS.

There is a rule in play that says, "roll 1d2 for every spell slot you have. 1 means you still have that spell slot. 2 means you don't."

My rolled stats are 16, 12, 13, 13, 11, 8. Thinking of being an Old (maybe middle aged? Iunno...) Lesser Celadrin or Lesser D'hin'ni or Lesser Cansin or Lesser Aasimar.

Plan on spending much of my wbl on things that can't be 'removed'...

Apparently, any valid 3.5e wotc source is in!

Considering a half and half mix of battlefield control and some direct damage... anyone have any specific help on how to go about doing this? I kinda wanna show the group what is possible...

[Techwarrior]

Craft Contingent Spell: Sudden Maximized Time Stop
Condition- When the (insert method of counting down) gets to 0.

Now, you have 5 rounds to set up their doom. If you can't do it by then your not trying hard enough.

[Acanous]

You're going to want Reverse Gravity and Gate, both of which you can cast in a Timestop. Reverse Gravity lets you screw with the 10' cubes you get, depending on layout you may be able to get them all with one casting. (Probably 2-4, and one Gate [Positive energy plane])
With Contingency and Time Stop you're pretty much good to have them gone.
Given that you start on raised pillars, there is *Nothing for them to grab hold of*, meaning they get no save VS Reverse Gravity, and no save on Gate.
Unless they fly. But hey, Celerity. You get another round to Disjoin or chain dispel anyone who'se already flying.
For that matter, get some kind of Wing graft to make sure YOU fly.

[GenericMook]

First round, you say?

There's nothing better than the Arcane Fusion/Greater Arcane Fusion spell loop. Here's what it looks like: Arcane Fusion (Sanctum Arcane Fusion, Magic Missile). The Sanctum Arcane Fusion/Magic Missile part loops within itself.

GAF does this with higher-leveled spells, too. Scorching Ray is a personal favorite.

[Pickford]

First round, you say?

There's nothing better than the Arcane Fusion/Greater Arcane Fusion spell loop. Here's what it looks like: Arcane Fusion (Sanctum Arcane Fusion, Magic Missile). The Sanctum Arcane Fusion/Magic Missile part loops within itself.

GAF does this with higher-leveled spells, too. Scorching Ray is a personal favorite.

Sanctum spell's only have an 'effective' spell level of one level lower, they remain whatever their actual spell level is, so it would be impossible to cast a sanctum arcane fusion with an arcane fusion spell.

In other words: Arcane Fusion is a 5th level spell. Sanctum Arcane Fusion is still a 5th level spell, but it 'acts' as a 4th level spell.

Edit:
@Gavinfoxx

Can you cast any spells 'before' entering the arena? Or is no preparation allowed? If no prep, consider being an Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil to survive.

[Gavinfoxx]

The character will be plopped from a random adventuring day via DM Fiat. Hence the some spell slots being expended.

All the preparation standard in a random adventuring Day will be prevalent, except a possible smattering of his items will be removed.

[Pickford]

The character will be plopped from a random adventuring day via DM Fiat. Hence the some spell slots being expended.

All the preparation standard in a random adventuring Day will be prevalent, except a possible smattering of his items will be removed.

Hrm, I have a 12 Sorc/6 IotSV and the last adventure we did I expended maybe 7 spells total from varying levels. So the 50% chance of not having a spell left is...extreme imo. More so for Wizards who only would have up to 4 slots (no frills version).

In that case: Pick up Spell Focus divination, Insightful Divination (CM) and have Moment of Prescience (by the level you mentioned you're basically guaranteed to still have it up)

Moment of Prescience will let you apply the +20 to your initiative (because initiative is a dexterity check, phb 136, and mop applies to ability checks) and the insightful divination will grant a further +8 (mop being 8th level) and a +8 to your next save.

So...with at least +28 to your initiative, I hope you'd go first. If you're an IotSV even if you don't go first, you would be able to throw up defenses as an immediate action.

I would also consider putting Arcane marks on something very powerful and using dwamijj's instant summons to get it at the start.

[Gavinfoxx]

I dont wanna have to roll initiative... thinking of some kind of dire tortoise / celerity combo... not 100% sure on how that works!

[LTwerewolf]

Or you can just make sure you win the initiative roll. nerveskitter and improved ini, along with a healthy dex is a pretty good way.

[Xervous]

There is this one thing that is overlooked and interacts in weird ways with celerity and co. at times...

Immediate actions cannot be used when flat footed, so winning initiative is still important...

Of course, this is barring some ruling shenanigans I'm not aware of.

[Gavinfoxx]

Aren't there a few ways to never be flat-footed?

[GenericMook]

Sanctum spell's only have an 'effective' spell level of one level lower, they remain whatever their actual spell level is, so it would be impossible to cast a sanctum arcane fusion with an arcane fusion spell.

In other words: Arcane Fusion is a 5th level spell. Sanctum Arcane Fusion is still a 5th level spell, but it 'acts' as a 4th level spell.

Nope. A Sanctum Arcane Fusion, when cast outside of your Sanctum, is a 4th-level spell taking up a 5th-level slot. See the text of Sanctum Spell for this:


A sanctum spell has an effective spell level 1 higher than its normal level if cast in your sanctum (see below), but if not cast in the sanctum, the spell has an effective spell level 1 lower than normal. All effects dependent on spell level (including save DCs) are calculated according to the adjusted level. A sanctum spell uses a spell slot of the spell's normal level.

Since you're not using a spell slot when casting spells within Arcane Fusion, Sanctum Arcane Fusions are perfectly valid, as they're really 4th-level spells when cast outside your Sanctum.

[urandom]

Run around as a dire tortoise (PAO). Consider shapechange or polymorph to a choker or something else that gets double actions after you get off a time stop. Get daze negation (limited wish favor of the martyr?) and celerity. Craft contingent spell (time stop,celerity), contingency (celerity), get a belt of battle for even more actions. Maximize your initiative anyway (warning dagger, eager dagger, nerveskitter, aggressive trait, hummingbird familiar, improved initiative, dex enhancement). Consider laying down disjunction(s) before firing off that sudden maximized time stop - it'll make sure they don't have anything tricky. Then metamagic up some force damage - maybe (sudden?) maximized maw of chaos. Or arcane disciple for blade barrier. There's a pirana pit spell that's popular here whose name is escaping me.

[Pickford]

Nope. A Sanctum Arcane Fusion, when cast outside of your Sanctum, is a 4th-level spell taking up a 5th-level slot. See the text of Sanctum Spell for this:



Since you're not using a spell slot when casting spells within Arcane Fusion, Sanctum Arcane Fusions are perfectly valid, as they're really 4th-level spells when cast outside your Sanctum.

Yes, effective, not actual. The spell remains a 5th level spell, it wouldn't cost you a 6th level spell slot to use a sanctum spell in your sanctum for example.

Arcane Fusion only allows you to cast up to a 4th level spell. Sanctum Arcane Fusion remains 5th level and invalid.

Gavin:

Yes, Foresight stops you from ever being flatflooted, but it only lasts 10min/level, so you'd be looking at something like 3hrs 20 minutes duration.

[Answerer]

Pickford, you'll never be able to back up your argument with explicit rules to that effect. "Effective level" is not defined anywhere except within Sanctum Spell... which specifically says "all effects dependent on spell level" – whether or not a spell can fit inside arcane fusion, much the same as whether or not the spell can pass through a globe of invulnerability, is an effect dependent on spell level.

[Pickford]

Pickford, you'll never be able to back up your argument with explicit rules to that effect. "Effective level" is not defined anywhere except within Sanctum Spell... which specifically says "all effects dependent on spell level" – whether or not a spell can fit inside arcane fusion, much the same as whether or not the spell can pass through a globe of invulnerability, is an effect dependent on spell level.

Ok: Sanctum Arcane Fusion takes up a 5th level spell slot, ergo it is always a 5th level spell.

By the logic he was using if I have a ring of arcane might 'all' my spells are now +1 level than they really are so A globe of invulnerability won't protect you from my normall 4th level spells.

[GenericMook]

Ok: Sanctum Arcane Fusion takes up a 5th level spell slot, ergo it is always a 5th level spell.

By the logic he was using if I have a ring of arcane might 'all' my spells are now +1 level than they really are so A globe of invulnerability won't protect you from my normall 4th level spells.

No, Sanctum Arcane Fusion is a fourth-level spell being cast from a fifth-level spell slot. There's a distinct difference between spell levels and the level of the spell slot in question.

[Randomguy]

How big is the arena?

Take improved initiative and nerveskitter as a spell known. If prebuffs are allowed, use MoP to win initiative, or foresight so that you aren't flatfooted and can cast celerity.

Then:

1. Time stop, possibly maximized with a metamagic rod if it's still on you.
3. Arcane Spellsurge.
2. Shapechange into a chronotyryn for double actions.
3. Fill the room with battlefield control like reverse gravity, black tentacles and solid fog.
4. Spam Vortex of Teeth with various metamagic spells. You may want arcane thesis. Taking levels in incantatrix is also advised. So is Greater Arcane Fusion.
5. Ready an action to time stop again if necessary.

As an incantatrix with arcane thesis (vortex of teeth), you can churn out a Greater Arcane Fusion (Twinned Empowered VoT, Vot) as well as a maximized twinned empowered VoT in one round. And you get two of those thanks to chronotyryn.
After a full turn of casting, that averages 200 damages every round (That's Including the extra chronotyryn round).

[Pickford]

No, Sanctum Arcane Fusion is a fourth-level spell being cast from a fifth-level spell slot. There's a distinct difference between spell levels and the level of the spell slot in question.

4th-level or lower sorcerer spell.

Not spell level. 4th level sorceror spell.

Arcane Fusion is a 5th level sorceror spell. Regardless of it's effective spell level (what sanctum spell impacts) the spell itself is always a 5th level sorceror spell.

[Answerer]

Arcane fusion is a 5th-level spell, but sanctum arcane fusion is "effectively" for "all effects dependent on spell level" a 4th-level spell. Metamagic effects change the spell. They do not normally change its spell level (just the slot it is prepared in/cast from), but Sanctum Spell explicitly states that the spell level changes. Ergo, yes, by RAW, this works. It shouldn't and it almost certainly wasn't intended to, but the problem is with the rules as poorly written, not with the argument that GenericMook is making.

[Pickford]

Arcane fusion is a 5th-level spell, but sanctum arcane fusion is "effectively" for "all effects dependent on spell level" a 4th-level spell. Metamagic effects change the spell. They do not normally change its spell level (just the slot it is prepared in/cast from), but Sanctum Spell explicitly states that the spell level changes. Ergo, yes, by RAW, this works. It shouldn't and it almost certainly wasn't intended to, but the problem is with the rules as poorly written, not with the argument that GenericMook is making.

It doesn't change it into a 4th level sorceror spell. It makes it behave 'as' a 4th level spell. There's a distinction in RAW.

[GenericMook]

Or you know what? Just go with Arcane Thesis (AF) or Arcane Thesis (GAF), and apply metamagic with a +0 adjustment. Bam, AF/GAF looping is now possible within Pickford's understanding of the rules.

[Answerer]

It doesn't change it into a 4th level sorceror spell. It makes it behave 'as' a 4th level spell. There's a distinction in RAW.
And you have a citation for that, I'm sure? Because all I see is that it behaves "as" a 4th-level spell for "all effects dependent on spell level." As it turns out, "all" is a really powerful word that designers should probably avoid using. I'm not aware of any other rule that has anything to say on this, which means that "all" is the first, last, and only say: it behaves in all respects, including whether or not it can fit into arcane fusion, as a 4th-level spell.

[Mato]

1. Maximize your Charisma (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14458906&postcount=17).
2. Take Arcane Disciple.
3. Persist Unearthly Beauty by any means.

On their own free action, when they look at you, regardless of who thinks they go first, they must make a DC 58ish Fort or be Blinded, as a Free Action they must also make a DC 58ish Will or Die.

It's faster than talking based triggers for Contingency. I hope they brought Dearth Ward and secondary means of long range sight. Even Mindsight with it's 100ft. limitation won't be enough with a semi-decent Move Silently check.

[Pickford]

And you have a citation for that, I'm sure? Because all I see is that it behaves "as" a 4th-level spell for "all effects dependent on spell level." As it turns out, "all" is a really powerful word that designers should probably avoid using. I'm not aware of any other rule that has anything to say on this, which means that "all" is the first, last, and only say: it behaves in all respects, including whether or not it can fit into arcane fusion, as a 4th-level spell.

Yes, that was why I quoted the spell Arcane Fusion. It explicitly says it must be a 4th level sorceror spell.

And for the post above the quoted one, Arcane Thesis reduces the increase in metamagic slot cost.

And not that it should matter, but a metamagic spell is impossible within the strictures of Arcane Fusion as Sorcerors cast metamagic as full-round spells. (and the usable spells 'must' be standard actions).

Now...you 'could' do greater arcane fusion to arcane fusion...but no metamagic.

[Answerer]

Yes, that was why I quoted the spell Arcane Fusion. It explicitly says it must be a 4th level sorceror spell.
Which the sanctum arcane fusion is for "all effects dependent on spell level." You will not find any rule anywhere that specifies that there is an exception to that "all" for any purpose, including stuffing it in arcane fusion. You are quite simply and explicitly wrong. It's stupid, it shouldn't be allowed at any table, but it is RAW. "All effects" means all effects. Unless or until you post a citation from a published book that qualifies that "all" in some fashoin, I will not repeat myself on this point again, I will simply point refer you back to this post each time you repeat this assertion.


And not that it should matter, but a metamagic spell is impossible within the strictures of Arcane Fusion as Sorcerors cast metamagic as full-round spells. (and the usable spells 'must' be standard actions).
Metamagic Specialist or Rapid Metamagic solve that problem handily.

[Pickford]

Which the sanctum arcane fusion is for "all effects dependent on spell level." You will not find any rule anywhere that specifies that there is an exception to that "all" for any purpose, including stuffing it in arcane fusion. You are quite simply and explicitly wrong. It's stupid, it shouldn't be allowed at any table, but it is RAW. "All effects" means all effects. Unless or until you post a citation from a published book that qualifies that "all" in some fashoin, I will not repeat myself on this point again, I will simply point refer you back to this post each time you repeat this assertion.


Metamagic Specialist or Rapid Metamagic solve that problem handily.

Well for one thing it would cause a recursive loop if you were correct reducing the spell level to 0th. (Everytime you look at the spell it would reduce it's level by one) So it has to be anchored by it's actual spell level. The sanctum spell still 'uses' the 5th level slot, therefore it is still 5th level. (in this particular case it doesn't actually use the slot, but as far as your character is concerned if you were to cast it on it's own it would still be using up the 5th level slot)

So no. It's a 5th level spell regardless of the effective level and that invalidates it's use.

[Greenish]

Even Mindsight with it's 100ft. limitation won't be enough with a semi-decent Move Silently check.Mindsight itself doesn't have a limitation, so you could conceivably have a much larger area.

[Answerer]

Well for one thing it would cause a recursive loop if you were correct reducing the spell level to 0th. (Everytime you look at the spell it would reduce it's level by one) So it has to be anchored by it's actual spell level.
Which would affect nothing about stuffing it inside an arcane fusion, but even if it did you're wrong. There is no reason why the feat would automatically be repeated, and metamagic feats explicitly prevent you from repeatedly applying the same one to a spell. So no, there would not be any recursion.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Mindsight itself doesn't have a limitation, so you could conceivably have a much larger area.I'm curious, what kind of creatures/abilities/spells get you a telepathy range larger than 100'?

[Gavinfoxx]

So, assuming it is a LARGE arena, what might I do in order to be able to blast or bfc everyone else in sight, from the time stop?

[Pickford]

Which would affect nothing about stuffing it inside an arcane fusion, but even if it did you're wrong. There is no reason why the feat would automatically be repeated, and metamagic feats explicitly prevent you from repeatedly applying the same one to a spell. So no, there would not be any recursion.

No I'm saying 1 application causes a recursive loop where it is X-1 levels.

i.e. The Spell's level is X where X = X-1.

[Greenish]

I'm curious, what kind of creatures/abilities/spells get you a telepathy range larger than 100'?Shedu Crown could conceivably be pushed to a tad higher. The Abeil Queen from the ever-reliable MMII has 25 miles radius telepathy, if my memory serves.

There might be some other stuff, I dunno.


[Edit]: No, Abeil Queen's ability isn't called Telepathy, sadly.

[Seer_of_Heart]

Craft Contingent Spell: Sudden Maximized Time Stop
Condition- When the (insert method of counting down) gets to 0.

Now, you have 5 rounds to set up their doom. If you can't do it by then your not trying hard enough.

Craft multiple copies of this set to trigger after the one before it ends :smallbiggrin:. That should be plenty of rounds to cast vortex of teeth or some other spell that will damage them when timestop ends

[Kazyan]

Shedu Crown could conceivably be pushed to a tad higher. The Abeil Queen from the ever-reliable MMII has 25 miles radius telepathy, if my memory serves.

There might be some other stuff, I dunno.

The Formian Queen does have "Telepathy", and it covers 50 miles. (Noticed it from a "simple" wizard build...high-op silliness, I tell ya)

[Greenish]

The Formian Queen does have "Telepathy", and it covers 50 miles. (Noticed it from a "simple" wizard build...high-op silliness, I tell ya)It's not Telepathy (I noticed from the actual book). And yes, like I said, it has 25 mile radius.

[Kazyan]

It's not Telepathy (I noticed from the actual book). And yes, like I said, it has 25 mile radius.

Hmm? *carefully rereads* Oh! You're right, but I'm talking about the formians, a similar but distinct kind of insect-people, and I miswrote: 50 mile radius, not diameter. So, 100 mile coverage.

[Greenish]

Hmm? *carefully rereads* Oh! You're right, but I'm talking about the formians, a similar but distinct kind of insect-people, and I miswrote: 50 mile radius, not diameter. So, 100 mile coverage.Oh, I see, my bad. Yeah, formian queen's the thing for Mindsight.

[Jack_Simth]

Warning: There is no guaranteed win or guaranteed kill in all cases. This can be easily demonstrated for any given build: Pit the proposed build up against it's twin. One of them fails to "win" with most versions of Arena rules.

You can get some builds that have a high likelihood of killing everyone else (like, say, an infinite damage build with Contingency(Celerity) for when the battle starts), but there are no guarantees.

[Gavinfoxx]

Here's the thing though -- I doubt anyone else in the game, other players or the GM, will optimize as hard as me...

I just need a way to stop, stymie, and deal a ton of damage to a large group of people spread fairly far out, but generally within visual range and under 1100' from me in a wide circle, so they generally can't do anything to stop me...

Also, I won't have time to do a craft contingent spell for the particular countdown.. I need something more generic...

[Pickford]

Warning: There is no guaranteed win or guaranteed kill in all cases. This can be easily demonstrated for any given build: Pit the proposed build up against it's twin. One of them fails to "win" with most versions of Arena rules.

You can get some builds that have a high likelihood of killing everyone else (like, say, an infinite damage build with Contingency(Celerity) for when the battle starts), but there are no guarantees.

So what happens if you have two people with contingent celerity? Do they roll initiative and the second one goes first? (because the 2nd celerity interrupts the 1st celerity)

Edit: Incidentally, how would you phrase the contingency? How would you even know this would come to pass?

[Answerer]

No I'm saying 1 application causes a recursive loop where it is X-1 levels.

i.e. The Spell's level is X where X = X-1.
Are you... familiar with the definition of recursion?

[Pickford]

Are you... familiar with the definition of recursion?

Recursion is the process of repeating items in a self-similar way.

In this case the definition of x uses itself to define itself.

However, I think we can agree the 'actual' level of the spell never changes (thus stopping the recursive action). So the actual spell level is and remains at 5. Hence, no dice to an infinite chain of anything.

Edit: That's why sanctum is an effective spell level rather than a spell level.

[Jack_Simth]

So what happens if you have two people with contingent celerity? Do they roll initiative and the second one goes first? (because the 2nd celerity interrupts the 1st celerity)

Edit: Incidentally, how would you phrase the contingency? How would you even know this would come to pass?

If you know you're going to be in an arena, you set it for the starting condition of the arena (whatever that is).

If you do not know you're going to be in an arena, but think you're going to get in a fight at some point, you set it for something like "When someone casts a spell at me or aims a weapon at me".

You then combine that with Foresight and being able to actually cast celerity.

Then what goes on when both have similar setups (this assumes both have arranged immunity to Daze):

1) Person A and B roll initiative (we'll say A wins for convenience. It really doesn't matter; if B wins, just swap A and B in all the below).
2) Person B's Contingency triggers when A starts to do something hostile.
3) Person A's Contingency triggers when B starts to do something hostile.
4) Person B actually casts Celerity as an immediate action to try and go first anyway.
5) Person A actually casts Celerity as an immediate action to try and go first anyway.
6) No more interrupts for person B, so Person A acts on the most recently cast celerity.
7) Then Person B acts on the next most recently cast celerity
8) Then person A acts on the Contingent Celerity
9) Then person B acts on the Contingent Celerity
10) Then person A acts on their initiative
11) Then person B acts on their initiative

So yes, they all squeeze three standard actions (one or more of which might include a Time Stop or something else to stretch things further...) into the first round of battle.

Oh, and to avoid the possibility of losing the Contingency focus: Voluntarily fail the save that you don't have to make to cast your Contingency via Greater Shadow Evocation. No focus, so it can't be stolen.

[Norin]

I heard fireballs do like 1d6 fire damage per caster level. You should try to cast a fireball on your enemy! That will take away alot, if not all, of his hp and make you win!

[Techwarrior]

Here's the thing though -- I doubt anyone else in the game, other players or the GM, will optimize as hard as me...

I just need a way to stop, stymie, and deal a ton of damage to a large group of people spread fairly far out, but generally within visual range and under 1100' from me in a wide circle, so they generally can't do anything to stop me...

Also, I won't have time to do a craft contingent spell for the particular countdown.. I need something more generic...

Craft Contingent Time Stop: When I am teleported, plane shifted, or otherwise magically moved against my will, is one I use myself normally and from my understanding is how your going to get there.

[Answerer]

Recursion is the process of repeating items in a self-similar way.

In this case the definition of x uses itself to define itself.
Right, recursion involves repetition. You cannot recurse something that does not repeat. Without repeated application of Sanctum Spell, you cannot have recursion, and you cannot cause the level to be adjusted more than once. You cannot have repeated application of Sanctum Spell, of course, because the rules for Metamagic Feats explicitly forbids it. Even if you were allowed, re-application of Sanctum Spell would be a voluntary choice. In other words, if a sanctum sanctum fireball were legal (which it is not), then yes, it would be 1st level. But that does not happen automatically which is why you do not get infinite recursion.


However, I think we can agree the 'actual' level of the spell never changes (thus stopping the recursive action). So the actual spell level is and remains at 5. Hence, no dice to an infinite chain of anything.

Edit: That's why sanctum is an effective spell level rather than a spell level.
No one is denying that it's a change in "effective spell level" – that's exactly what the feat says. The problem is that "effective spell level" is never defined anywhere in the game aside from within the feat itself which says only that the "adjusted spell level" is used to calculate "all effects dependent on spell level (such as [...] the ability to penetrate a minor globe of invulnerability)."

Whether or not something can penetrate minor globe of invulnerability depends on whether or not it is "of 3rd level or lower." This is exactly the same kind of restriction as in arcane fusion, where the level must be 4th or lower. The feat explicitly allows this kind of thing to work. The authors just did not anticipate arcane fusion and the authors of arcane fusion were unaware of Sanctum Spell.

[Pickford]

Right, recursion involves repetition. You cannot recurse something that does not repeat. Without repeated application of Sanctum Spell, you cannot have recursion, and you cannot cause the level to be adjusted more than once. You cannot have repeated application of Sanctum Spell, of course, because the rules for Metamagic Feats explicitly forbids it. Even if you were allowed, re-application of Sanctum Spell would be a voluntary choice. In other words, if a sanctum sanctum fireball were legal (which it is not), then yes, it would be 1st level. But that does not happen automatically which is why you do not get infinite recursion.

No one is denying that it's a change in "effective spell level" – that's exactly what the feat says. The problem is that "effective spell level" is never defined anywhere in the game aside from within the feat itself which says only that the "adjusted spell level" is used to calculate "all effects dependent on spell level (such as [...] the ability to penetrate a minor globe of invulnerability)."

Whether or not something can penetrate minor globe of invulnerability depends on whether or not it is "of 3rd level or lower." This is exactly the same kind of restriction as in arcane fusion, where the level must be 4th or lower. The feat explicitly allows this kind of thing to work. The authors just did not anticipate arcane fusion and the authors of arcane fusion were unaware of Sanctum Spell.

Where words are undefined we're to use the standard common sense definition. As spells never ask for an effective spell level that means it uses the 'standard' spell level. Which remains 5.

The scheme is flawed and does not work.

[Answerer]

Where words are undefined we're to use the standard common sense definition.
A. It's not undefined, it's undefined in any global or general sense. The only definition (that is relevant) is the one provided by the feat, which says "all." All means all.

B. Even if it were undefined, would you care to show me the rule that says that this is how undefined terms are supposed to be interpreted?


As spells never ask for an effective spell level that means it uses the 'standard' spell level. Which remains 5.
Of course, if that were true, then Sanctum Spell applied to a 4th-level spell (i.e. one that is effectively now 3rd) would still pass through a lesser globe of invulnerability – a thing it explicitly cannot do.


The scheme is flawed and does not work.
How can is it that a sanctum enervation cannot go through a lesser globe of invulnerability (as it explicitly cannot do) but a sanctum cone of cold cannot go in an arcane fusion?

[Occasional Sage]

OK, so there's lots of good and tasty cheesefu going on here, but....

This is arena combat. You're fighting to put on a good show. Winning in the first round will make the audience hate you with the sullen fury of ten thousand dying suns.

[Answerer]

But then you get to shout "ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED?!"

[Gavinfoxx]

If you know you're going to be in an arena, you set it for the starting condition of the arena (whatever that is).

I wont know that until it is too late.

And no, this is my character being kidnapped and told to be the last one standing. He would HATE the idea of trying to entertain people, and want to make it happen over in the blink of an eye, just to spite the creature that called him.

And yes, he WANTS the megalomaniac creature that put him here to hate him!

[Pickford]

Something just clicked...this is 3.5 sanctum spell from complete arcane, not 3.0 from tome and blood.

They dropped the phrase about the globe of invulnerability. So yeah, maybe if Arcane Fusion existed in 3.0...

However with the corrected, 3.5 version, no dice. The two versions have distinctive language, the newer version of which prevents the use of a sanctum spell version of arcane fusion by arcane fusion.

[Answerer]

They changed absolutely nothing except for the explicit mention of the globe. It did not actually change in any way, shape, or form. You remain wrong. It is still "calculated according to the adjusted spell level" for "all effects dependent on spell level."

All. It hasn't gone anywhere. It's very definitive, and quite unqualified. All means all and it's not going to change. It includes globe of invulnerability and it includes arcane fusion. You are wrong.

[Pickford]

They changed absolutely nothing except for the explicit mention of the globe. It did not actually change in any way, shape, or form. You remain wrong. It is still "calculated according to the adjusted spell level" for "all effects dependent on spell level."

All. It hasn't gone anywhere. It's very definitive, and quite unqualified. All means all and it's not going to change. It includes globe of invulnerability and it includes arcane fusion. You are wrong.

We will have to agree to disagree. The spell requires a 4th level spell, not a spell that is effectively 4th level. Again, if you refuse to acknowledge that distinction, agree to disagree.

[TuggyNE]

We will have to agree to disagree. The spell requires a 4th level spell, not a spell that is effectively 4th level. Again, if you refuse to acknowledge that distinction, agree to disagree.

You're entitled to your own opinion, certainly (and it wouldn't be a bad houserule), but unless there's some specific differentiation, something that's "effectively" X works for things that require X — that, after all, is the primary purpose of saying that it's effectively X!

As I often hint at, the distinction between RAW and RACSD is important; just because a rule interaction shouldn't be allowed doesn't mean it's technically invalid, and the fact that most sane DMs would prevent something doesn't negate the fact that without their intervention it wouldn't be prevented.