Advice for 9th level Druid feat? (3.5)

[mcv]

My Druid just reached level 9, and I find it harder and harder to come up with meaningful feats. I already have Augmented Summoning, Track (barely used) and Natural Spell. What now?

We only use core (SRD), so all those weird overpowered summoning and wildshaping feats are not an option. Besides, I already have more than enough trouble keeping track of all the animals I can summon or turn into.

The best things I can come up with are generic stuff like Improved Initiative (never hurts), and Leadership (which doesn't sound terribly appropriate for the campaign, but it might be an option). Or maybe monster feats to improve my wild shape forms, like Improved Natural Attack, Multiattack or Hover.

Does anyone have any better suggestions?

[ceduct]

extend spell

edit: not just for buffs, your monster summonings are affected by this

[Leon]

Extend Spell is a good one for Buffs

[Darth Stabber]

My top 5 serious choices in core would be (in descending order of personal preference):

#1)Extend Spell: Most of your best spells are buffs, enjoy them for longer.

Edit: this seems to be the consensus that came about while I was typing.

#2)Multiattack: +3 to hit is just enough bonus from a feat to be worth it.

#3)Improved Unarmed Strike: you can make an iterative of unarmed strikes and still use all of your natural weapons, really good if you already have #2.

#4)Flyby attack: good with flying animals, great with elemental wildshape.

#5)Quicken Spell: yeah it's a big adjustment. Get over it, violating the action economy is worth the cost if you can do it intelligently. Infact it is fairly important for you since you want to spend actions beating preference. May as well put you buff spells on swift actions, keeping you standard and full actions available for violence.

Non-serious Idea

If you have a 13 int, you could grab combat expertise + improved trip + knockdown + combat reflexes. It's not a powerful choice, but the ability to get a free automatic trip attempt everytime you deal 10damage, and if the trip is successful get a free attack, is just fun.

It's not like druid really needs feats after natural spell so you can go crazy and not lose out on that much other than metamagic. This is not an optimized choice, this is just a silly fun thing that relies on the awesomeness of your class features to make up for your weird feats. It's not bad, but you can do more with metamagic and/or more general combat feats.

9: expertise
12: improved trip
15: knockdown
18: combat reflexes

[JeminiZero]

How about the Summon Elemental Reserve feat? Useful if nobody else in your party has a near-limitless supply of trap fodder (such as the Zceryll Bider, the Warlock with the BoH full of corpses, or the Psion with PP recovery and Astral Construct).

[hymer]

I'm with most people on the Extend, and I'd get Quicken at 12. But it may depend somewhat on the role you like to fill. You seem to have taken summoner feats, but sound like you're not too wild (no pun intended) about it. If you spend a lot of time in wildshape killing things with you bare (no pun intended) claws, Extend will still be good as it is for a summoner.

[mcv]

That's practically unanimous for Extend Spell. I guess that should make my choice easy.

Thing is, what I don't like about metamagic is that you have to prepare spells at a higher level, so I get less high level spells. I love the Rod of Extend Spell (is that also in 3.5? I've got one in a Pathfinder campaign), though of course rods don't work so well for a Druid, with wild shaping an all.

And at level 9, is duration really still that much of an issue? 9 rounds is usually enough for a combat, 9 hours enough for a day, and is the difference between 9 or 90 minutes and 18 or 180 minutes really that dramatic? (It's going to be killer with Ice Storm, though. Would you do the same damage during the second round?)

But faced with this unanimous vote, I'm pretty sure my assessment must be wrong.

I do like that Summon Elemental Reserve Feat. Probably not allowed, but I can always ask.

[hymer]

Well, if you don't like Extend Spell, don't take it. It'll be a waste of a feat slot if you don't use it. :smallsmile:

[Darrin]

If you get into any kind of melee with wildshape, then Improved Unarmed Strike + natural attacks is a good way to improve DPS. Also, you could go for a high Dex + reach form and take Combat Reflexes. Remember that the Monster Manual is core, might be something in there that interests you, like Improved Natural Attack or Ability Focus.

If nothing tickles your fancy, then I'd probably take Flyby Attack before Improved Initiative, but those are both good general utility feats.

[Randomguy]

If you go into melee a lot then multiattack would be worth it.

[Darth Stabber]

That's practically unanimous for Extend Spell. I guess that should make my choice easy.

Thing is, what I don't like about metamagic is that you have to prepare spells at a higher level, so I get less high level spells. I love the Rod of Extend Spell (is that also in 3.5? I've got one in a Pathfinder campaign), though of course rods don't work so well for a Druid, with wild shaping an all.

And at level 9, is duration really still that much of an issue? 9 rounds is usually enough for a combat, 9 hours enough for a day, and is the difference between 9 or 90 minutes and 18 or 180 minutes really that dramatic? (It's going to be killer with Ice Storm, though. Would you do the same damage during the second round?)

But faced with this unanimous vote, I'm pretty sure my assessment must be wrong.

I do like that Summon Elemental Reserve Feat. Probably not allowed, but I can always ask.

actually hour/level duration spells are great targets. 9 hours will likely not cover the day, 18 very reasonably will. Most combat buffs only need 6 rounds of duration to cover the whole fight, but when you deal with longer durations, you increase the likelyhood of it lasting to the next fight. Considering that extend's adjustment is only 1 level, you really aren't paying that much. Adjustments 2 or higher can be annoying, but there are several really good one level ones. Now if you can grab fell drain (is that the negative level one), you can make some frightening druid blastomancy with a +2 modifier, but that still won't compare to what you can do in melee. Fell animate is also amusing, since it allows you to start making undead, something druids are normally quite hard pressed to do.

[mcv]

Well, if you don't like Extend Spell, don't take it. It'll be a waste of a feat slot if you don't use it. :smallsmile:

I could do that, but I think I'd rather learn how to use Extend Spell properly. I'm clearly underestimating it.

To give you an example of my spell loud out, here's what I currently have prepared and used (we're in the middle of a dungeon at the moment):

level 0:
* Detect Magic 2x
* Light 2x
* Resistance 2x

level 1:
* Entangle (I rarely use it, somehow)
* Calm Animals (used)
* Faerie Fire (used)
* Longstrider (active)

level 2:
* Barkskin (not yet cast, amazingly enough. I should have, but the first fight surprised me. I think this would be a prime target for Extend Spell)
* Soften Earth & Mud (to give it a try; haven't used it before)
* Spider Climb (I love this one)

level 3:
* Greater Magic Fang (active)
* Water Breathing (active)
* Sleet Storm

level 4:
* Spike Stones (cast to summon Dire Wolves)
* Ice Storm (cast)

In the past I used to rely a lot on Flame Strike and Call Lightning, but now that I can Wild Shape to large animals, I want to move more towards melee and battlefield control. When I can turn into a Dire Lion, I don't really need spells to do damage anymore.

So Barkskin jumps out immediately as the prime candidate for Extend Spell. I want it to last all day, but it can't. I don't cast it too far in advance, because I want to have it active for all the most important fights of the dungeon. As it happens, we're doing this particular dungeon backwards so we may already have had the two toughest fights (the first of which nearly killed me and killed our front-line fighter/cleric), but I neglected to cast it in time. (I also neglected to add my wilding clasped armour to my AC. I don't know if that would have stopped the attack that took nearly all of my HP.)

Back when I was level 7, I once had my Dire Wolves last for 2 combats. I'd need to look up how metamagic works for spontaneous casting. It seems to me I should be able to use a level 5 spell to summon d3 Dire Wolves for 18 rounds.

And I'd love to know if Extend Spell doubles the damage Ice Storm does. If it does, that's also a great candidate, although at the moment it would cost me one of my precious 5th level spells.

So which of these would you extend? Or are there other spells that I should have prepared with Extend?


actually hour/level duration spells are great targets. 9 hours will likely not cover the day, 18 very reasonably will.
It depends on the kind of day I guess. In a dungeon, we'll be running out of spells long before those 9 hours are up. But 18 hour duration would make it something I simply cast at the start of every day, no matter what. Definitely convenient, but I'm not convinced it's actually worth it.


Most combat buffs only need 6 rounds of duration to cover the whole fight, but when you deal with longer durations, you increase the likelyhood of it lasting to the next fight.
Depends on the kind of fight. After most fights, we spend some time looting, healing, planning and exploring, and that will usually mean any duration measured in rounds will run out. I have had spells (Dire Wolves) last into the next fight once, when one guy fled through a door, I sent my wolves after him, and the next room turned out to have a demon. But that's extremely circumstantial.

My guess would actually be that it's the 9 minutes or 90 minutes durations that would be most attractive to extend. 18 minutes is likely to be a couple of fights even if you do loot, heal and explore, and 180 minutes could easily end up being a significant part of a dungeon. (We're in a city, so a "dungeon" tends to be us breaking into a house/mansion/palace, or going down the sewers or some other limited tunnel complex.) Or at least long enough until we run out of spells and need to rest anyway.


Considering that extend's adjustment is only 1 level, you really aren't paying that much. Adjustments 2 or higher can be annoying, but there are several really good one level ones. Now if you can grab fell drain (is that the negative level one), you can make some frightening druid blastomancy with a +2 modifier, but that still won't compare to what you can do in melee. Fell animate is also amusing, since it allows you to start making undead, something druids are normally quite hard pressed to do.
I'm trying to move away from the blasting, and undead are definitely a no-no.

Don't get me wrong: I want to understand how to use Extend Spell. It is clearly a very good choice if so many people independently suggest it. But I want to really understand how to use it. My intuition says it's better for minute spells than for round or hour spells, but you're saying the exact opposite. I'm just trying to understand it.

[mcv]

If you get into any kind of melee with wildshape, then Improved Unarmed Strike + natural attacks is a good way to improve DPS.
How does that work exactly? Doesn't Improved Unarmed Strike just make unarmed attacks lethal and not subject to AoOs? For natural attacks that's not an issue anyway, is it? I don't see how this would increase my damage.


Also, you could go for a high Dex + reach form and take Combat Reflexes. Remember that the Monster Manual is core, might be something in there that interests you, like Improved Natural Attack or Ability Focus.
Improved Natural Attack is something I'm definitely considering. At the low end, it only adds about 1 point of damage. For a Dire Lion, it would increase the Bite from 1d8 to 2d6 which is very nice, but it's not the primary attack.

The problem with Ability Focus is that every form has different special attacks, so it's useless for forms that lack the special attack I'm focusing on.


If nothing tickles your fancy, then I'd probably take Flyby Attack before Improved Initiative, but those are both good general utility feats.
I'm not sure about the usefulness of Flyby Attack. It's great when you're alone and can stay out of reach, but I've got party members who also need protecting. And flying forms tend to have high AC, so I think I'd rather tank in such cases.

What about Improved Natural Armor? +1 AC in animal form isn't bad either, isn't it?

[tiercel]

Another generic choice perhaps worth considering is Craft Wondrous Item. For the usual reasons, not to mention so you can crank out Wilding Clasps (if you can get them allowed) and/or gear for your animal companion.

[mcv]

Another generic choice perhaps worth considering is Craft Wondrous Item. For the usual reasons, not to mention so you can crank out Wilding Clasps (if you can get them allowed) and/or gear for your animal companion.
Hm... creating more Wilding Clasps would definitely be useful. The GM was pretty clear on there being only one of them for sale in the city, and no Wild Dragonskin Breastplate, at the moment. So on the one hand, circumventing that is useful, on the other hand, he might not want me to go crazy with tons of Wilding Clasps. Particularly since it's not really core.

I'll discuss it.

[Darrin]

How does that work exactly? Doesn't Improved Unarmed Strike just make unarmed attacks lethal and not subject to AoOs? For natural attacks that's not an issue anyway, is it? I don't see how this would increase my damage.


You use unarmed strikes as your iterative attacks. All your natural attacks are added as secondary attacks. Let's say you have BAB +6 and you're in a form with bite/claw/claw. Your full attack looks like:

unarmed strike +6/unarmed strike +1/bite +1/claw +1/claw +1

This mini-guide (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10994.0) explains things in more detail.



The problem with Ability Focus is that every form has different special attacks, so it's useless for forms that lack the special attack I'm focusing on.


Yes, that would only work if you had one form you preferred above all others, and it had a special attack you were particularly keen on. I threw that out there because you seemed so disappointed with the consensus on Extend Spell. Probably works best with poison, since a well-buffed druid can drive up the save DC pretty high.



I'm not sure about the usefulness of Flyby Attack. It's great when you're alone and can stay out of reach, but I've got party members who also need protecting. And flying forms tend to have high AC, so I think I'd rather tank in such cases.


Depends on what you're trying to do with that standard action. Best used with touch spells or stuff outside core (martial adept maneuvers), but druids have plenty of spells they can cast from behind the party.



What about Improved Natural Armor? +1 AC in animal form isn't bad either, isn't it?

Meh. Might be more effective with just core feats available, but there are too many other ways to buff AC, and you're getting into mid-range levels where the disparity between AC and attack bonus starts to really stretch out.

[mcv]

You use unarmed strikes as your iterative attacks. All your natural attacks are added as secondary attacks. Let's say you have BAB +6 and you're in a form with bite/claw/claw. Your full attack looks like:

unarmed strike +6/unarmed strike +1/bite +1/claw +1/claw +1

Is this really legal? Where do the unarmed attacks come from when I'm already using all my limbs to attack?

I'd consider this utterly illegal if I were GM. Do the rules really explicitly say that this is allowed?


Yes, that would only work if you had one form you preferred above all others, and it had a special attack you were particularly keen on. I threw that out there because you seemed so disappointed with the consensus on Extend Spell. Probably works best with poison, since a well-buffed druid can drive up the save DC pretty high.
I was thinking more about grapples, as a lot of animals have that option.

As for Extend Spell, I'm not so much disappointed that that's the consensus, but with my own lack of mastery of Extend Spell. I know a lot of people consider it very good. People with much more experience with the system than I have. And I do recognize the value of a Rod of Extend Spell, since it doesn't increase the spell slot level, but I'm just not quite sure how to use it effectively. At this point, I prefer learning how to get the most out of Extend Spell, rather than any of the other options.


Depends on what you're trying to do with that standard action. Best used with touch spells or stuff outside core (martial adept maneuvers), but druids have plenty of spells they can cast from behind the party.
I never really use touch spells. Maybe also something I should learn more about, but at this moment, I'm leaning towards mastering Extend Spell.


Meh. Might be more effective with just core feats available, but there are too many other ways to buff AC, and you're getting into mid-range levels where the disparity between AC and attack bonus starts to really stretch out.
Well, we are mostly limited to Core. And I am turning into the party's front-line fighter, so extra AC never hurts. But I do get your point.

[Darrin]

Is this really legal?


Absolutely.



Where do the unarmed attacks come from when I'm already using all my limbs to attack?


The abstractness of combat system doesn't require that level of detail, but if you want a fig leaf... many forms still have elbows/knees/feet/headbutts (or the equivalent).



I'd consider this utterly illegal if I were GM. Do the rules really explicitly say that this is allowed?


A monk doesn't lose his class features or the use of his feats if he's polymorphed into another form. Why would a druid with Improved Unarmed Strike work any differently?

The rules on mixing manufactured weapons, unarmed strikes, and natural attacks are spread all over the place, but they are in Core. The rules for natural weapons becoming secondary attacks are in the Monster Manual:



Some creatures combine attacks with natural and manufactured weapons when they make a full attack. When they do so, the manufactured weapon attack is considered the primary attack unless the creature’s description indicates otherwise and any natural weapons the creature also uses are considered secondary natural attacks. These secondary attacks do not interfere with the primary attack as attacking with an off-hand weapon does, but they take the usual –5 penalty (or –2 with the Multiattack feat) for such attacks, even if the natural weapon used is normally the creature’s primary natural weapon.




Unarmed Attacks: Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon, except for the following:

Attacks of Opportunity: Attacking unarmed provokes an attack of opportunity from the character you attack, provided she is armed. The attack of opportunity comes before your attack. An unarmed attack does not provoke attacks of opportunity from other foes nor does it provoke an attack of opportunity from an unarmed foe.

An unarmed character can’t take attacks of opportunity (but see “Armed” Unarmed Attacks, below).

“Armed” Unarmed Attacks: Sometimes a character’s or creature’s unarmed attack counts as an armed attack. A monk, a character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell, and a creature with natural physical weapons all count as being armed. Note that being armed counts for both offense and defense (the character can make attacks of opportunity)


The only problem I can see is that, like the monk, druids are not proficient with unarmed strikes.

[mcv]

The abstractness of combat system doesn't require that level of detail, but if you want a fig leaf... many forms still have elbows/knees/feet/headbutts (or the equivalent).
Yes, but the "attack with all limbs at once" for D&D monsters is already ridiculous enough without assuming even more attacks.

If the attacks aren't listed, it doesn't have them, as far as I'm concerned.


A monk doesn't lose his class features or the use of his feats if he's polymorphed into another form. Why would a druid with Improved Unarmed Strike work any differently?
He's not unarmed! He has claws. Would you expect a druid with a sickle to do full attacks with his sickle as well as full unarmed attacks? He still has another hand, as well as two feet, head and elbows.


The rules on mixing manufactured weapons, unarmed strikes, and natural attacks are spread all over the place, but they are in Core. The rules for natural weapons becoming secondary attacks are in the Monster Manual:
This sounds more like the kind of monster I recently fought in another campaign: some hybrid monster that had both claws and arms with swords. It attacked with all of them, but it had the required number of limbs for it, and it was listed in the stats.

Making up extra attacks because of some loophole and weird interpretation of some rules is way too cheesy for me. I'd ban it, and I'd ban it, and I expect my GM will too.