Help me design 2 npcs to challenge 4th-level party of 6

[Man on Fire]

I'm having game this thuesday, party of 6 4th level characters. We have Wizard, Druid with animal companion, Musket Master, Alchemist- Saboteur, Rogue, and Bonded Witch. What I'm trying to do is create two NPCs to challenge them for final fight, duo of Vampires, White-Haired Witch and Magus. I don't need the fluff, but I would really appricate help with the crunch. If I understand the rules correctly, my group's APL is 5, so for Boss ecounter these two sould have CR 8, which means they have to be Level 4+2 from Vampire Template +2 for being a duo. I might bump the thread with whatever I managed to design so far, but I will be glad for any suggestions and ideas.

EDIT: Disregard the above, game already happened. Now I need ecounter for Now I need to design a lich-esque (that is, I would preffer not using actual lich) challenge for party of 2 4th level Musket Masters, 4th level druid with animal companion, 4 level Rogue, 4th level wizard, 4th level alchemist, 4th level witch and two nerfed vampires (4th level white-haired witch and 4th level magus respectively).

[Man on Fire]

Okay, I designed those two opponents myself, if somebody could check them for me I would be grateful.

First is Human Vampire Witch

4th Level Human Vampire Witch
Str:16 Con:- Dex:18 Int: 23 Wis:14 Cha:17
Fort:+4 Ref:+7 Will:+6 Init:+12 HP:41, AC:+21 (10+4 Dex, +1 bonus, +6 natural Armor) (17 flat footed, 15 Touch)
Class Features: Cantips, White Hair (constrict and trip), Patron (engeance), Familiar (Scorpion, +4 Init)
Feats: Combat Casting, Alterness, Spell Penetration, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, Toughness, Red Feast
Channel Resistance +4, DR 10/magic and silver, cold and electricy resistance 10, Fast Healing 5, immunity to mind-affecting effects, bleed, death effects, disease, paralysis, poison, sleep, stunning, nonlethal damage, ability drain, energy drain, physical ability score damage, exhaustion, fatigue, any effects requiring fortitude save, doesn’t breath, eat or sleeps, Noble Dead
Class Skills: Bluff +11, Intimidate +9, Knowledge Arcana +11, Knowledge History +11, Knowledge Planes +11, Spellcraft +11, Use Magic Device: +9, Perception +14, Sense Motive +14, Stealth +12, Diplomacy +7
Spells:
Level 0 – 4 Spells:
Guidance
Touch of Fatigue
Message
Daze
Level 1 -6 Spells:
Burning Hands (Patron)
Command
Mage Armor
Obscuring Mist
Ray of Efeenblement
Inflict Light Wounds
Level 2 – 5 Spells:
Burning Gaze (Patron)
Blindness/Deafness
Inflict Moderate Wounds
Vomit Swarm
Touch of Idiocy
Natural Attacks: Hair
Special Attacks and abbilities: Slam Attack, Blood Drain, Children of the night, Create Spawn, Dominate, Energy Drain, Change Shape, Gaseous Form, Shadowless, Spider Climb
Equipment: Pearl of Power (2nd), Headband of Vast Intellect +2


Second is human vampire Dex-Based Magus.

4 level Human Vampire Magus
Str :16 Con:- Dex:22 Int:20 Wis:14 Cha:17
Fort:+6 Ref:+9 Will:+6 Init:+9 Hp:46 AC: 25 (10 +6 DEX +1 Bonus+6 Natural +2 Armor)(19 flat footed, 17 Touch)
Class Features: Arcane Pool (8), Catnips, Spell Combat, Spellstrike, magus Arcana (Arcane Accuracy), Spell Recall
Feats: Alterness, Dodge, Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, Toughness, Combat Reflexes, Extra Arcane Pool, Weapon Focus (Rapier), Weapon Finesse (Rapier)
Channel Resistance +4, DR 10/magic and silver, cold and electricy resistance 10, Fast Healing 5, immunity to mind-affecting effects, bleed, death effects, disease, paralysis, poison, sleep, stunning, nonlethal damage, ability drain, energy drain, physical ability score damage, exhaustion, fatigue, any effects requiring fortitude save, doesn’t breath, eat or sleeps, Noble Dead
Slam Attack
Special Attacks: Blood Drain, Chidlren of the night, Create Spawn, Dominate, Energy Drain, Change Shape, Gaseous Form, Shadowless, Spider Climb
Skills:
Spells:
Level 0 – 4:
Ray Of Frost
Acid Splash
Flare
Daze
Level 1 - 4:
Corrosive Touch
Chill Touch
Mirror Strike
True Strike
Color Spray
Level 2 -3:
Bull’s Strength
Elemental Touch
Glitterdust
Equipment:
Rapier 1d6 18-20/x2, p
Belt of Incredible Dexterity +2
Leather (+2 AC)

[Deaxsa]

vampires are significantly too difficult for almost any level 4 party. Case in point: gaseous form at will. and then there's the damage reduction, huge stat bonuses, the fact they can make minions, the fact they are undead, Fast healing, etc. don't make a 4th level party fight vampires. maybe necropolitans from Libris Mortis if you want them to be undead, but not vampires. (heck, even liches might be weaker than vampires)

edit: i think you're calculating CR wrong. also, i think that Vampires, like Hydras, have grossly underexaggerated CRs (I mean, +8 LA, but only +2 CR? yea right)

jm2c

[Man on Fire]

Well, that's a bummer, after so much work I put into it and probaly because I won't have time to do anything else with them. Maybe I could nerf them by removing some vampire abilities? If I remove damage reduction, ability to create minions, fast healing and gaseous form, could they be easier threat?

[HC Rainbow]

Phew, Just looking at the stats and I was sweating. Yes vampires are very fun, but they would also rip your entire party into pieces. You could make one of them a vampire and maybe homebrew a half vampire for the duo, toss a couple of really weak minions and take away a lot of the epic vampire features and damage reduction, otherwise your party will have a VERY hard time smashing those vampires.

[Man on Fire]

Well, for starters I basically removed all special abilitie/attacks aside blood drain, children of the night and spider-climb, as well as most of immunities, including fast healing. That part pretty much look like this now:

immunity to mind-affecting effects, ability drain, energy drain, physical ability score damage, exhaustion, fatigue, any effects requiring fortitude save, doesn’t breath, eat or sleeps, Noble Dead
Special Attacks: Blood Drain, Spider Climb

Is that much better?

Also, right now they pretty much became only combat ecounter planned in entire adventure and even then players could talk them out of it, which I'm hoping for.

[HC Rainbow]

Their stats are still really high, unless your PCs stats are up there, along with their armor class. at level 4, with 22 strength and a good BAB they still need to roll a 15 to hit them, which is really high.

I would drop their armor class a little bit, drop their dex just a tad, and lower their stats. otherwise your PCs will have a hard time hitting them without flanking the hell out of them.

[Man on Fire]

Okay, I'll do. Through, having Gunslinger in the party makes things a ittle bit easier. And of course most of my caster likes things that target touch AC. But wil still drop their AC a bit.

[HC Rainbow]

true but their touch AC is still 16 ish. low BAB guys will probably have to roll a 10 or higher, which isnt bad I suppose.

Still your rogue and your druids animal companion would have a rough time and feel slightly useless, your rogue will already feel pretty useless in regards to No sneak attack.

But just drop it a few points and that'll make it so much better. if the party just wrecks the vampires, make them come back in a later campaign and pump them up again. Trial and error is your friend.

[Man on Fire]

Okay, I'll try to drop it a bit more. And I'll allow sneak attack to work on them.

But yeah, trial and error, in worst case scenario I'm gonna do some "wrestling psychology" and have them toy around, allowing players to have a chance to plan something, instead of going for simple kill.

[HC Rainbow]

that works. You may want to put some minions, 1 hp 10 str 10 dex etc minions to just swing around at players and keep some of them busy, otherwise they'll find a way to trap your vampires and smash them to bits. You may want to consider making them able to go gaseous 3/day or something of the sort for 2 rounds or something weak but able to get them out of a flank pinch without tumble.

[eastmabl]

vampires are significantly too difficult for almost any level 4 party. Case in point: gaseous form at will. and then there's the damage reduction, huge stat bonuses, the fact they can make minions, the fact they are undead, Fast healing, etc. don't make a 4th level party fight vampires. maybe necropolitans from Libris Mortis if you want them to be undead, but not vampires. (heck, even liches might be weaker than vampires)

edit: i think you're calculating CR wrong. also, i think that Vampires, like Hydras, have grossly underexaggerated CRs (I mean, +8 LA, but only +2 CR? yea right)

jm2c

The +2 CR thing is downright weird.

Conceivably, you could have a 1st level commoner who is turned into a vampire, and is CR 3. Inconceivably, our Commoner 1 Vampire can begin to make spawn, which in turn is CR 4.

EDIT: so the reason why I was responding was to suggest Vampire Spawn, since it's the stripped down vampire you're trying to get (minus the spell casting).

This is much closer to actually being a CR 4 creature than anything vampiric, though the DC 14 Fort save or level drain against the slam attack is a little rough at level 4, even if it's only +5.

[SilverLeaf167]

The +2 CR thing is downright weird.

Conceivably, you could have a 1st level commoner who is turned into a vampire, and is CR 3. Inconceivably, our Commoner 1 Vampire can begin to make spawn, which in turn is CR 4.

EDIT: so the reason why I was responding was to suggest Vampire Spawn, since it's the stripped down vampire you're trying to get (minus the spell casting).

This is much closer to actually being a CR 4 creature than anything vampiric, though the DC 14 Fort save or level drain against the slam attack is a little rough at level 4, even if it's only +5.
3.5 Vampires had a special clause that a creature with less than 5 HD always rises as a vampire spawn rather than a vampire, thus you couldn't have that 1st level commoner vampire in the first place. I don't know if that little detail was carried over to PF, though.

[Starbuck_II]

3.5 Vampires had a special clause that a creature with less than 5 HD always rises as a vampire spawn rather than a vampire, thus you couldn't have that 1st level commoner vampire in the first place. I don't know if that little detail was carried over to PF, though.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/vampire

A vampire can create spawn out of those it slays with blood drain or energy drain, provided that the slain creature is of the same creature type as the vampire's base creature type. The victim rises from death as a vampire spawn in 1d4 days. This vampire is under the command of the vampire that created it, and remains enslaved until its master's destruction. A vampire may have enslaved spawn totaling no more than twice its own Hit Dice; any spawn it creates that would exceed this limit become free-willed undead. A vampire may free an enslaved spawn in order to enslave a new spawn, but once freed, a vampire or vampire spawn cannot be enslaved again.


Actually reading this: they make only spawn?
Or maybe since template can only applied to 5 HD, it is a spawn till it gains 5 HD?

[Man on Fire]

Hello there guys. My game got delayed few times and my party finally faced two nerfed vampires yesterday. They (the players) also had help of NPC gunslinger.

And they ripped these two new buttholes. What was supposed to be recurring antagonists throug entire part of this game almost got obliberated in first fight. I didn't even tried later, just let players talk them into joining forces.

Now I need to design a lich-esque challenge for party of 2 4th level Musket Masters, 4th level druid with animal companion, 4 level Rogue, 4th level wizard, 4th level alchemist, 4th level witch and two nerfed vampires. Any ideas?