Xykon's failure is a foregone conclusion

[Chaotic Queen]

After browsing through the archives, I found this strip again: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0326.html

The fact that this takes place in the future means that Xykon fails to release the Snarl, due to the world not ending. This always happens whenever I watch a series that has an episode showing the future: the hero will make it out of whatever dilemma their facing because of the fact that we know they have a future.

So in this case, we know for sure Xykon will fail. What is unknown, however, is who succeeds? Does the Order save the world, or does the Dark One succeed in blackmaIling the other gods?

[Winter]

Of course the comic will not end with "rocks fall, everybody dies" or "the evil guy wins to 100%". You know when you open any epic book on page one, if you switch on any movie. What comes to my mind about this is: D'uh.

As a practical comment: It is the journey getting there that matters, not the end itself.

[sam79]

Good spot; though I think Elan's prophesy of a 'happy ending' to the story (for him at least) also provides some assurance that Xykon Won't Get Away With It.

You're right that this leaves a LOT to be resolved, including the extent to which Redcloak's aims are realised.

[Gift Jeraff]

oh man i totally expected this comic to have a dark gritty edgy ending

[ThePhantom]

There's a problem with that, the problem being that Goblins have a shorter lifespan than other races. Therefore, the time since the hydra was defeated may be shorter than it appears.

As for Xykon's failure being a foregone conclusion, a better strip to provo that is http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html. Because it says that Elan will have a happy ending for his story, and there is no way that Xykon winning would be a happy ending for him. We know that Elan will turn out okay, no matter what.

[EmperorSarda]

Or maybe Xykon will fail because the plan (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0830.html) doesn't benefit him at all?

[Winter]

Or maybe Xykon will fail because the plan (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0830.html) doesn't benefit him at all?

Good point. This information has been "out there" for years (via Start of Darkness) on top of that. The comic has not gotten worse for me knowing that, though.

Since we saw there is apparently some planet (at least no Snarl) inside the rift, the rifts lost a lot of their threat to me as well. But I'm pretty sure the stakes are going to raise again before the end comes.

[Kish]

I want you to engage in a little thought exercise for me.

Imagine that, instead of the Order of the Stick forum, you're on a completely generic Internet forum. And someone (take on faith, for this, that this person is not a troll and is completely sincere and accurate) posts: "Spoiler: The bad guy loses."

What work is the poster referring to?

[EmperorSarda]

I want you to engage in a little thought exercise for me.

Imagine that, instead of the Order of the Stick forum, you're on a completely generic Internet forum. And someone (take on faith, for this, that this person is not a troll and is completely sincere and accurate) posts: "Spoiler: The bad guy loses."

What work is the poster referring to?

Nearly everything aside from Star Wars Revenge of the Sith.

[Seerow]

I wouldn't take any prophecy or peeks into the future as assurance that the good guys will win. I mean, we can guess that from a meta point of view, knowing that the Giant isn't likely to go for such a grim nihilistic ending... but in Wheel of Time there is a similar running theme where they are fighting for the future of reality itself, and while there are several prophecies that refer to things that come in the distant future, which implies that they will win, it is pointed out that those prophecies can only come to be if reality itself still exists. Basically those things represent what will happen assuming the good guys win, not necessarily assuring that them doing so is a foregone conclusion.

[Bling Cat]

I wouldn't take any prophecy or peeks into the future as assurance that the good guys will win.

I suppose the difference here, at least with the example of prophecy, is that Rich has explicitly stated that that is the purpose of Elan's prophecy.

You could also make the argument that this series deals with metaphysical concepts such as time less often than I imagine Wheel of Time did, so we can take peeks at the future a bit straighter.

Though, as others have said before me, the idea that Xykon will eventually lose is reinforced by the fact that him winning would be an awful ending. His goals are not remotely sympathetic, and entertaining as he may be, I don't think anyone is truly rooting for him. Xykon's victory has no narrative payoff, and so, for me at least, it is assumed from the get go that he will lose.

[Winter]

Nearly everything aside from Star Wars Revenge of the Sith.

... which basically is in the middle of a story...

[FujinAkari]

I wouldn't take any prophecy or peeks into the future as assurance that the good guys will win.

I absolutely would take that prophesy to be assurance that the good guys will win, considering Rich is on record as saying that the entire purpose of Elan's prophesy is to assure the readers that, while the comic is in for dark turns (Durkon's Prophesy) it will ultimately have a happy ending.

[jere7my]

I want you to engage in a little thought exercise for me.

Imagine that, instead of the Order of the Stick forum, you're on a completely generic Internet forum. And someone (take on faith, for this, that this person is not a troll and is completely sincere and accurate) posts: "Spoiler: The bad guy loses."

What work is the poster referring to?

There's a whole world of fictional works with unhappy endings out there. I don't want to start listing them, for fear of spoilers, but it's not at all unusual for the bad guy to win.

[Winter]

There's a whole world of fictional works with unhappy endings out there. I don't want to start listing them, for fear of spoilers, but it's not at all unusual for the bad guy to win.

It happens, but it is unusual.

[Kish]

There's a whole world of fictional works with unhappy endings out there. I don't want to start listing them, for fear of spoilers, but it's not at all unusual for the bad guy to win.
Really? I can't think of any.

(Bearing in mind that, in a classic tragedy, the bad guy still loses. He just takes good guys with him.)

[jere7my]

Really? I can't think of any.

(Bearing in mind that, in a classic tragedy, the bad guy still loses. He just takes good guys with him.)

Much as I hate to use TV Tropes for anything:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheBadGuyWins

(Spoilers abound, obviously, and I don't agree with all their characterizations.)

Well-known examples include 1984, Watchmen, No Country for Old Men, The Usual Suspects, some of China Miéville's books......there are hundreds, even without looking at horror.

[NerdyKris]

To be fair though, there's a massive difference between "The bad guy winning" and "Reality itself is torn asunder". Also, those stories that end with the protagonists failing tend to be darker and more fatalistic. Certainly not terms I'd apply to Order of the Stick.


Really, this isn't a mind blowing revelation. Although I wouldn't use a punchline from a random hobgoblin as proof of anything at all, ever.

[jere7my]

To be fair though, there's a massive difference between "The bad guy winning" and "Reality itself is torn asunder". Also, those stories that end with the protagonists failing tend to be darker and more fatalistic. Certainly not terms I'd apply to Order of the Stick.

Oh, sure. I'd be very surprised if OoTS ended on a downer.

[Chaotic Queen]

Oh, sure. I'd be very surprised if OoTS ended on a downer.

I honestly cannot tell if that's sarcasm.

[Drivort]

I absolutely would take that prophesy to be assurance that the good guys will win, considering Rich is on record as saying that the entire purpose of Elan's prophesy is to assure the readers that, while the comic is in for dark turns (Durkon's Prophesy) it will ultimately have a happy ending.

Out of curiosity, when did Rich say that? I don't spend much time on the forum, so I have no idea.


Also, I don't know the definite timeline of the Strip, but I guess there is still the chance that the goblin aged, given that they have a shorter lifespan (as somebody pointed out before). In addition, it never really ocurred to me that it would any other way than the Order stopping Xykon from fullfilling his plans.

[sam79]

Out of curiosity, when did Rich say that? I don't spend much time on the forum, so I have no idea.


He said it in one of the book commentaries. War and XPs I think.

[Dr.Epic]

Not necessarily:

1. Goblins age quicker. How do we really know that last panel isn't from like 2 months in the future?

2. An angry magic user was dissatisfied with their hydra head and cast an aging spell on the goblin.

3. The goblin could be from an alternate timeline, and what we're seeing is actually is a parallel universe.

[Mike Havran]

1. Goblins age quicker. How do we really know that last panel isn't from like 2 months in the future?

2. An angry magic user was dissatisfied with their hydra head and cast an aging spell on the goblin.


Gosh, would I like to earn my first one million gold pieces in two months :smalltongue:

[blazingshadow]

xykon wants to rule the universe not destroy it so people being alive in the future only means the snarl will not end the world

[Yendor]

You know, while Xykon will surely lose, Redcloak may not. He won't succeed in The Plan, but he could still achieve part of his goal of getting better treatment of the goblinoids.
The phylactery is Plan B. If Redcloak is facing certain defeat -- where he'll be killed and the Crimson Mantle will be destroyed -- he can offer up the phylactery to the good guys in exchange for whatever concessions he can get. He can't risk Xykon coming back, because Xykon will know he was double-crossed and will likely take it out on any goblinoids he can find. So this may be Redcloak's best chance of salvaging something out of the whole deal.

[Querzis]

You know, while Xykon will surely lose, Redcloak may not. He won't succeed in The Plan, but he could still achieve part of his goal of getting better treatment of the goblinoids.

I saw it the other way around actually. Xykon doesnt wanna release the Snarl, once he figure out what Redcloak plan is, he could easely just decide «screw this I'm outta here» and go hide in some remote part of the world. Redcloak plan is certain to fail but Xykon plan to eventually conquer the world might not since, being a lich, he could easely do so thousands of years from now.

[dancrilis]

Given that people can turn grey fairly quickly and given that the franchise seems to have subsidiaries active within Gobbotopia (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0705.html)and that running a startup business requires long hours to explain the bags under his eyes I would not say that it requires Xykon to lose.
Also even if that Goblin is 400+ years old it doesn't mean that Xykon is not still out there doing good deeds and righting wrongs and trying to make the world a better place.

[ti'esar]

For the sake of argument, I'd note that the most likely scenario where Xykon would actually unleash the Snarl is when about to lose.

(Although as EmperorSarda notes, it's not really his decision anyway).

[Koo Rehtorb]

I'm not really sure that a random throwaway joke is the strongest argument you could make for claiming that the comic isn't going to end with the world being destroyed.

[Winter]

Much as I hate to use TV Tropes for anything:

Yes, this was expected. Now contrast it with everything where the Bad Guy loses in the end and the world is rescued (even if it's some sort of Bittersweet Ending).

Do you think your list will even make 5% of that? What if you get genre specific (which means epic fantasy stays in, horror etc is simply kicked out)?

[ti'esar]

Yes, this was expected. Now contrast it with everything where the Bad Guy loses in the end and the world is rescued (even if it's some sort of Bittersweet Ending).

Do you think your list will even make 5% of that? What if you get genre specific (which means epic fantasy stays in, horror etc is simply kicked out)?

Here, the existence of this page (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheGoodGuysAlwaysWin) should be noted. Also of note is the last paragraph:


Please do not list examples on this page. After all, there is a reason for the "Always" in the trope name. (Plus, we'd be here forever.)

[jere7my]

Yes, this was expected. Now contrast it with everything where the Bad Guy loses in the end and the world is rescued (even if it's some sort of Bittersweet Ending).

Do you think your list will even make 5% of that? What if you get genre specific (which means epic fantasy stays in, horror etc is simply kicked out)?

I'm not sure what your quibble is. Kish said he couldn't think of any works in which the bad guy wins; I offered some examples. The ratio of good-guys-win to bad-guys-win doesn't matter; we're not placing bets here.

[Kish]

You didn't actually answer my question about "which work is the poster referring to" in my thought exercise, y'know.

I will take your word for it that there is an entire genre of The Bad Guy Wins out there that I was not previously familiar with and have no desire to become personally familiar with. But...if you're going to go literal enough to ask Winter what his/her quibble is, you still didn't answer my question.

(I will not take your word for "not at all unusual" however. Because...I refuse to believe I actually need to explain because.)

[Winter]

I'm not sure what your quibble is. Kish said he couldn't think of any works in which the bad guy wins; I offered some examples. The ratio of good-guys-win to bad-guys-win doesn't matter; we're not placing bets here.

You stated it was relatively common that the Bad Guy wins. I reply it does happen, but when compared to the rest of fiction, it is not common.

Especially if the size of the work grows, the rate of the bad guy winning goes down. You find a lot of short stories where that happens but nearly no epic tales (1000s of pages as a book or more than one movie) that end that way.
If we limit ourselves to the genre we are in (it is not horror) it becomes even less likely.

Your information is plain information at first glance, but if you put it in the context of the thread we are talking in, I have to constitute that you are factually correct, but given how low the rate of those cases is, I do not think it matters here and there is no point (in the context of the thread).

And btw, I do not think you can/should count Watchmen as "The Evil Wins", as it is not about "good vs. evil" and the ending is deliberately left open in regards how YOU want to see it (which worked very well). In some way, the good guys won. In another, they lost. In another, this is not to decide.

[lio45]

I'm not really sure that a random throwaway joke is the strongest argument you could make for claiming that the comic isn't going to end with the world being destroyed.

Not only that... there's also the fact that, even if you want to take that Goblin Dan's future scene as solid canon proof that the world still exists a number of years in the future, it does not mean that Xykon has failed... all it means is that the world hasn't been un-made (that's a pretty specific level of failure -- Snarl gets released, but out of control).

If Xykon's successful, the world will be a different place, sure, but there's no reason for it to become one where there is no place or demand any more for delicacies like BBQed hydra heads.

[jere7my]

You stated it was relatively common that the Bad Guy wins. I reply it does happen, but when compared to the rest of fiction, it is not common.

I'm not going to argue about the definition of the word "uncommon." I intended it to mean "It's not at all difficult to find well-known examples, including Best Picture Oscar-winners and extremely famous books."


Your information is plain information at first glance, but if you put it in the context of the thread we are talking in, I have to constitute that you are factually correct, but given how low the rate of those cases is, I do not think it matters here and there is no point (in the context of the thread).

I don't think there's much point in saying "The good guys usually win," either. While that's true, it doesn't hold any predictive power in the context of a particular story. You can't say, "The good guys usually win, so they're surely going to win in this story." The reason bad-guys-win stories often work is because they subvert our expectations; they frequently rely on the fact that we've been conditioned to expect the good guys to win.

That said, I already said I don't expect OotS to end with Xykon victorious, because that doesn't seem to be the mode Rich is working in. (I would not be surprised by a resolution that subverts the good/evil paradigm, though, so the good guys don't "win" in the expected way either. Xykon could release the Snarl, for instance...and discover it's quite different than expected.)

[jere7my]

You didn't actually answer my question about "which work is the poster referring to" in my thought exercise, y'know.

It's kind of a silly question. If I say "SPOILER: The bad guy wins," what work am I referring to? There are lots of examples of each; the question is insufficiently determinative.

It certainly would be possible for "The good guys win" to be a spoiler in the context of a specific work. A Song of Ice and Fire is a good example there — we don't know how it's going to end, and we certainly hope the good guys win, but knowing it for certain would give readers important information we don't now have.


I will take your word for it that there is an entire genre of The Bad Guy Wins out there that I was not previously familiar with and have no desire to become personally familiar with.

You're missing out.

[Bling Cat]

A Song of Ice and Fire is a good example there — we don't know how it's going to end, and we certainly hope the good guys win, but knowing it for certain would give readers important information we don't now have.
I think you'll find A Song of Ice and Fire is a good example for everything.

[fwiffo]

Sure, bad guys winning tends to be temporary mid-story practice, to be ultimately overcome at the end (take a fall of Azure City for good example of that). And, we do expect OOTS to win, based on the narrative conventions and in-comic hints.

But that does not imply that Xykon is certain to completely fail. How many times are bad guys defeated and escape (see Ernst Stavro Blofeld or any significant villain in superhero comics)? Or, in fantasy, they are defeated, imprisoned forever in a magical cage they can't ever escape... till some simple minded fool or ambitious mage accidentally undoes it from outside and releases ancient evil.

Xykon's failure to defeat OOTS might be reasonable conclusion, although with Giant's tendencies to subvert storytelling tropes sometimes, it is far from certain. But overall failure? I don't know about that. Good bad guys are hard to come by. Like little Audrey II offspring at the end of much underrated Little Shop of Horrors movie, they tend to stick around even after a happy ending.

[Holy_Knight]

Watchmen was definitely a case of "a bad guy wins". Not to mention "some good guys lose", too.

As far as works where the bad guys do win, one that always comes to my mind is "12 Monkeys", which might be the first movie I ever saw where that was the case.

And yeah, I have to echo people who note that Elan's prophecy is an even better indicator that Xykon will be defeated.

[jere7my]

Watchmen was definitely a case of "a bad guy wins". Not to mention "some good guys lose", too.

As far as works where the bad guys do win, one that always comes to my mind is "12 Monkeys", which might be the first movie I ever saw where that was the case.

And yeah, I have to echo people who note that Elan's prophecy is an even better indicator that Xykon will be defeated.

Oh, Holy Knight! I've been meaning to tell you: the stars are brightly shining. :smalleek:

[Winter]

- we don't know how it's going to end, and we certainly hope the good guys win, but knowing it for certain would give readers important information we don't now have.

In a Song of Ice and Fire are no really "good guys" (and only few clear-cut bad guys). Those that come "close" to "the good party" are the Starks and in all honesty: From their perspective they have already lost.
The problem is SoIaF is not about "Good vs. Evil". It is in the end about Ice vs. Fire and we have no idea what those sides stand for, but so far we met "good" and "bad" (very, VERY bad) people on both of the sides.

We also know it won't end badly. George RR Martin commented on that a few years back. Does that take away suspense? No, I doubt you would have assumed the entire world was covered in Ice and Undead at the end of the (forseeable) last book (which is incidently (probably) going to be called "A Dream of Spring".
We even know more about the ending but if you don't, I'm not going to spoiler more.

[Forikroder]

After browsing through the archives, I found this strip again: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0326.html

The fact that this takes place in the future means that Xykon fails to release the Snarl, due to the world not ending. This always happens whenever I watch a series that has an episode showing the future: the hero will make it out of whatever dilemma their facing because of the fact that we know they have a future.

So in this case, we know for sure Xykon will fail. What is unknown, however, is who succeeds? Does the Order save the world, or does the Dark One succeed in blackmaIling the other gods?

Xykon wasnt trying to release the snarl

if anything that hints it suceeds since the goblin can open a bussiness in peace without getting killed by adventurers

[Winter]

Watchmen was definitely a case of "a bad guy wins". Not to mention "some good guys lose", too.

Ozymandias brought World Peace with his plot. He did evil to achieve a greater goal and you are left to ponder if that was a good or a bad thing. There's no "Hohoho Evil Party" that won. In the end, the "Good Party" has to admit that revealing what he did would undo the peace, so they shut up about it.
It's a moral grey area the comic leaves us with. You can decide the bad guy won for yourself, but it is far from "a definite case of Side X winning".


As far as works where the bad guys do win, one that always comes to my mind is "12 Monkeys", which might be the first movie I ever saw where that was the case.

Last I watched it, it was left open. Isn't Dr. Peters (or whatever his name was) speaking, in the plane at the end, with one of the scientists from 2035 (we do not learn why etc, though)? (I might be mistaken, though)

[Bling Cat]

We also know it won't end badly. George RR Martin commented on that a few years back. Does that take away suspense? No, I doubt you would have assumed the entire world was covered in Ice and Undead at the end of the (forseeable) last book (which is incidently (probably) going to be called "A Dream of Spring".
We even know more about the ending but if you don't, I'm not going to spoiler more.

Actually, I believe his words were 'bittersweet'. Would it surprise you to know there is a theory among fans (Not widely held mind you) that this means that The Others murder everyone, but only because the coming winter would have done that anyway, and to kill them first was a mercy?

Bitter that everyone's dead, sweet that they didn't starve to death slowly.

They may misunderstand the term.

[Winter]

They may misunderstand the term.

They do. First because it does not mean what they think and so we can stop right here and second, the entire thing Martin said is "Bittersweet, like the LotR*". I really don't remember Sauron killing everyone and it was then considered "sweet" because "age would have gotten all of them anyway".
People who claim that over there are probably also claiming Belkar is good over here. :smallbiggrin:

* Read the books in case you did not. The movies miss the last part (which wraps up what the entire freaking thing is actually about).

[Holy_Knight]

Ozymandias brought World Peace with his plot. He did evil to achieve a greater goal and you are left to ponder if that was a good or a bad thing. There's no "Hohoho Evil Party" that won. In the end, the "Good Party" has to admit that revealing what he did would undo the peace, so they shut up about it.
It's a moral grey area the comic leaves us with. You can decide the bad guy won for yourself, but it is far from "a definite case of Side X winning".
No, my assessment was correct. While it's true that there is no homogenous "Side X" that won, that's precisely why I said that Ozymandias was a bad guy rather than the bad guy. But make no mistake, he committed an atrocity and got away with it. The potential ambiguity over whether the heroes should tell anyone what he did or preserve the lie after the fact doesn't change the wrongness of the original act.



Last I watched it, it was left open. Isn't Dr. Peters (or whatever his name was) speaking, in the plane at the end, with one of the scientists from 2035 (we do not learn why etc, though)? (I might be mistaken, though)
It's been a long time since I've seen it, too. But if I recall correctly, the movie ends with the scientist about to board the plane to release the virus, after the protagonists fail to stop him. The implication is that they were unable to change the past, and the dystopic future with which the movie began will still come to pass.

[Heksefatter]

You are all getting it wrong, yes you are. Rember that Xykon doesn't want to destroy the word and therefore we don't see his failure implicit in the future. Therefore, what is going to happen is actually this:


The Order of the Stick arrives at Girard's Gate first, and shortly after the Linear Guild arrives, killing the remaining Order except for Elan. Shortly after THAT, Xykon, Redcloak and the MitD arrives, killing Tarquin, the rest of the present Linear Guild and Elan by level drain and disintegrate.

Redcloak and Xykon now initiate the ritual at Girard's gate. Redcloak thinks that he has won now, as the ritual will transfer control of the gate to the Dark One and not to the casters. However, Xykon is - as seen in SoD - a lot more perceptive than most people credit him for and is ready for this. He reveals the MitD to be a half-dragon ith sorcerous powers and orders the M(no longer)itD to eat Redcloak for his treachery (again, see SoD). Xykon blackmails the gods by demanding that they make him a god too or he will finish the ritual and let the Dark One have its way. The gods have no choice but to comply and send a wave of divine energy down to the new chaotic evil deity. However, Xykon is not the only divine chaotic evil being at the location. Banjo is also there and it has already been established that Banjo is a true deity, just not a very powerful one. As Orthodox Banjoists consider Banjo a bloodthirsty and vengeful god and Banjo clearly enjoys living - even human - sacrifice - Banjo is chaotic evil.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0080.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0081.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0554.html

Thus, both Xykon and Banjo become powerful, fully-fledged gods. Banjo immediately collects the soul of his prophet Elan, thus permitting Elan to obtain his happy ending in an afterlife of chaotic clowning. The monster formerly known as the MitD wanders off. After this, Malack arrives at the scene with vampire-Belkar. He sees that every one else is dead, but lacking a body (since he was disintegrated) he can't raise Tarquin. Out of respect for Durkon, he decides to bring his corpse home to the dwarf lands in the mountains. For this, Malack is treated as an honoured guest for a while, which he uses to inflict a plague of vampirism on the dwarf lands and make it into an undead vampiric nation, ruled by himself, thus fulfilling the prophecies from Odin's High Priest (see Origin of the PCs) and the Oracle both.

With a new vampiric nation, Gobbotopia established and two poweful new chaotic evil deities, the nations of evil races flourish and with them, evil business. This is why in the future the evil business of hydra-fast-food is flourishing as well.

As for the IFCC they are eaten by Tiamat, after they fail to deliver on their promise with the good dragons. Sabine is eaten as well. Qarr survives by attaching himself to the new god Xykon and helping him with organization, just as Redcloak did before Xykon's divine ascension.



There. Now I've told you how OotS ends.

[Guy Incognito]

If you'll remember The Plan, this strip doesn't actually guarantee anything. Possible Start of Darkness spoiler:

Xykon thinks the Plan is to use the Snarl as a superweapon to get uppity nations in line. World: not destroyed. Redcloak knows it's to provide the Dark One with a bargaining chip to put the goblins in a position of power. World: not destroyed.

[Toofey]

I'm just going to point out that it was an orcish business so there's no reason it preclude's the bad guys from winning.