Pathfinder - Gunslinger overpowered?

[BlackDragon]

In our current campaign, I am playing a 10th level gunslinger. As I've increased in levels, I've noticed that I've continued to exceed the damage dealing capabilities of the rest of the group, and at this point I deal more damage in a round than 2 of our other members combined. As this is our first Pathfinder campaign, I'm wondering if I'm possibly doing something I should be able to do, or if the gunslinger in general is a fairly powerful class.

For example, last night we came up against a dragon, and in one round I obliterated the dragon while the rest of my gaming group stared at me in disbelief and anger (it made it a rather boring fight for everyone else).

At 10th level, my character is as follows:

I am using the pistollero variant.
Dex of 26 (started 18, 2 ability score points from leveling and a +6 belt of dex).
I am using a double barreled pistol +1, with distance, frost and holy enchantments. I have rapid reload and use alchemical rounds, so reloading is a free action for me.

For my basic attacks, using rapid shot and deadly aim, I've got the following attacks and damage:
+15/+15/+10 (+10 BAB, +8 Dex, +1 enhancement bonus, +1 point blank shot -2 rapid shot, -3 deadly aim), dealing 1d8 + 1d6 frost + 2d6 holy + 17 (+8 dex from pistolero, +1 pistol training, +1 enhancement, +1 point blank shot, +6 deadly aim)

So in general in a round, I hit with almost all of my attacks, and deal an average of 30 points of damage a shot (assuming an evil opponent), for an average of 90 damage per round.

Since I generally hit almost anything with a +15 bonus against touch AC, most of the time I use both barrels of my pistol, for a -4 to hit but a second attack. Sure, both of the attacks have to target the same person, but essentially doubling my damage makes it fairly worthwhile. So using my double barrels I get the following attacks: +11/+11/+11/+11/+6/+6. Even the +6 have a fair chance to hit against a touch AC, so my damage using both barrels averages about 180 per round.

That's not to mention if I use a haste potion to get another attack (or two attacks with the double barrel), or spend a grit point to use the Up Close and Deadly pistolero ability to add an extra 3d6 to my damage. Next level it seems like it will be even more lopsided as I'll have Up Close and Deadly as a signature dead and will add it to every attack I make.

Is everything that I'm doing here Pathfinder legal, or am I missing something wrong that makes me deadlier than I should be? It may be our builds, but a friend of mine is playing a Fighter with an Archer archetype, and his damage is not anywhere close to what I'm dealing.

[Squirrel_Dude]

How are you taking multiple attacks with a pistol?

Reloading each barrel of a one-handed firearm is a full-round action, and taking Rapid Reload only lowers that to a move action. Even with a double-barreled pistol, I don't see how you're getting that many attacks off every round.

You'll get the ability to do that with Lightening Reflexes at 11th level, but even then you can only load 1 barrel as a free action once per round.

[Xerxus]

Yes, gunslingers are way too good up close. Where did you get that belt? Seems like it got dropped a bit too early.

Also, how the hell is there a gunslinger archetype that gives dex to damage? That is probably the cheesiest thing I have seen for any ranged build ever. If it were for archers fine, but ranged touch attacks with dex to damage... That is like a fighter getting melee touch attacks.

[SamBurke]

Yes, gunslingers are way too good up close. Where did you get that belt? Seems like it got dropped a bit too early.

Also, how the hell is there a gunslinger archetype that gives dex to damage? That is probably the cheesiest thing I have seen for any ranged build ever. If it were for archers fine, but ranged touch attacks with dex to damage... That is like a fighter getting melee touch attacks.

Tome of Battle gave the Warblade and Crusader Melee Touch Attacks. (Diamond Mind for the WINNNNN).

However, it looks like you've been optimized extremely... for level 10, that seems like a high bonus.

[Greenish]

Also, how the hell is there a gunslinger archetype that gives dex to damage?Isn't that just the default gunslinger? I thought that was a large reason why people went for the class in the first place (or at least took a five-level dip).

[Daftendirekt]

How are you taking multiple attacks with a pistol?

Reloading each barrel of a one-handed firearm is a full-round action, and taking Rapid Reload only lowers that to a move action. Even with a double-barreled pistol, I don't see how you're getting that many attacks off every round.

You'll get the ability to do that with Lightening Reflexes at 11th level, but even then you can only load 1 barrel as a free action once per round.

It's entirely possible that he's using revolvers (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/revolver).

[RFLS]

Isn't that just the default gunslinger? I thought that was a large reason why people went for the class in the first place (or at least took a five-level dip).

Yeah, that's just default for them. It's kinda ridiculous.

[Xerxus]

Yeah, that's just default for them. It's kinda ridiculous.

Oh, never saw that before. I thought Paizo playtested gunslingers. Apparently I was mistaken.

[Zeikstraal]

I thought the class itself gives Dex to Damage.
I think the Gunslinger is a tricky case, the only thing they can do is shoot things. But they do it really good, maybe even too good.
I threw in an Ancient Dragon at a level 7 or 8 party, it didnt attack, but the party decided too attack it. They know it would be end of the campaign if they did it, but proceid anyway. (Maybe it is a hint at my DM skills hehe:smallbiggrin:)
Nobody stood a chance, accept the Gunslinger. He was an Mysterious Stranger with a double barreled Shotgun. He used a grit abillity that when he gets a crit, all attacks are crits. And ofcourse he rolls a natural 20, so he just blew up an Ancient Dragon at lowish level.
It rocked me back in my chair to be honest.

[Squirrel_Dude]

It's entirely possible that he's using revolvers (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/revolver).He specifically stated that he used a two-barreled pistol. There is no two-barreled revolver (thank god).


Sidenote: Advanced weapons are a little too strong, no matter who is using them. That is a not a class problem, that is a "double-barrelled shotguns are stupid in a fantasy game" problem.

[Greenish]

Oh, never saw that before. I thought Paizo playtested gunslingers. Apparently I was mistaken.I might be able to believe that Paizo playtests stuff. Believing that they subsequently listen to the playtesters is stretching it.

[RFLS]

Oh, never saw that before. I thought Paizo playtested gunslingers. Apparently I was mistaken.

Yeah....PF did some really nice things to 3.5, but some of their hiring decisions *coughSKRcough* lead me to believe that some of their stuff isn't well thought out.


I thought the class itself gives Dex to Damage.
I think the Gunslinger is a tricky case, the only thing they can do is shoot things. But they do it really good, maybe even too good.
I threw in an Ancient Dragon at a level 7 or 8 party, it didnt attack, but the party decided too attack it. They know it would be end of the campaign if they did it, but proceid anyway. (Maybe it is a hint at my DM skills hehe:smallbiggrin:)
Nobody stood a chance, accept the Gunslinger. He was an Mysterious Stranger with a double barreled Shotgun. He used a grit abillity that when he gets a crit, all attacks are crits. And ofcourse he rolls a natural 20, so he just blew up an Ancient Dragon at lowish level.
It rocked me back in my chair to be honest.

That's....well, honestly, that's a case of the dragon being played poorly. If the player was in range to get Dex to damage, then he provoked an AoO (dead). If he wasn't in range, then he didn't get Dex to damage, meaning that the dragon should have been fine.

I notice that the default listing for an Ancient Red Dragon on the PF website has Contingency as a spell known. Is there any reason that the dragon didn't have a general contingency for "if I'm in harm's way" up?

[Mcdt2]

I definitely agree that you probably shouldn't have a +6 dex belt this early. Aside from that, however...

I think the problem with the Gunslinger is twofold. Firstly, Pathfinder gave ranged people some very nice things that 3.5 lacked, but it took away a lot of melee's nice things (pounce, leap attack, nerfed power attack, etc.) Secondly, I would back off from double barreled guns, as that is making you outshine the others a bit too much. Stick to shooting from one barrel, until you find something that desperately needs to die.

A third issue, not the gunslinger per se, but the guns themselves. The majority of creatures most dms throw at you are the High STR, Low Dex type creatures, such as dragons. Combined with large sizes, hitting touch AC is easy even with a +0 to hit. Perhaps suggest to your DM that he adds more dexterous foes, some rogues or such?

Finally, what is you party composition? If you have, say, a sword and board fighter and a monk, no, they're never going to catch up in damage. A barbarian, if he knows what he is doing, probably could catch up to your single barrel shots at least, as could a rogue with a lot of attacks. Also, have you been misfiring at all? Because the camapaigns I've had players be 'slingers with so many attacks, the guns tended to explode on us. Remember, alchemical cartridges increas misfire chance by 1. You should be misfiring on 15% of attacks, and at 6 attacks around it should happen quite a bit. Not that that matters for long, at level 13 you never misfire with a pistol as a pistolero.

[Starbuck_II]

How are you taking multiple attacks with a pistol?

Reloading each barrel of a one-handed firearm is a full-round action, and taking Rapid Reload only lowers that to a move action. Even with a double-barreled pistol, I don't see how you're getting that many attacks off every round.

You'll get the ability to do that with Lightening Reflexes at 11th level, but even then you can only load 1 barrel as a free action once per round.

Alchemy ammo also lowers reloading.
One handed goes from standard to move then to free (rapid reload and Alchemy ammo).
Two handed for from full rd to standard then move then free (requires musket master).

[Zeikstraal]

Yeah....PF did some really nice things to 3.5, but some of their hiring decisions *coughSKRcough* lead me to believe that some of their stuff isn't well thought out.



That's....well, honestly, that's a case of the dragon being played poorly. If the player was in range to get Dex to damage, then he provoked an AoO (dead). If he wasn't in range, then he didn't get Dex to damage, meaning that the dragon should have been fine.

I notice that the default listing for an Ancient Red Dragon on the PF website has Contingency as a spell known. Is there any reason that the dragon didn't have a general contingency for "if I'm in harm's way" up?

The Dragon was poorly played, I never would have thought he was able to one shot a CR 20 Dragon. So i kinda took it lightly on them. About the AOO, someone took it earlier so no AOO for the Gunslinger.
It was actually a quest to figure out what happened to missing NPC's, so i gave them some clues that it was an really large black dragon. So they go into the pond, and attack a seemingly sleeping dragon :smallbiggrin:.

I'm not bragging about if they won, cause i knew the dragon could have won easily. But the fact that he was able to kill a dragon in one round.

[DonDuckie]

With all those attacks and a double pistol, your weapon should misfire every 2 rounds on average(unless I'm missing some gunslinger class feature, which I probably am).(EDIT: actually more often, I forgot the increase for alchemical cartridges)

Beyond that:
you have a +5 weapon (+50,000 gp) and a +6 belt(36,000 gp) and those two items alone put you above and beyond WBL, so you should be performing above average.

That dragon has flight(150ft+ I assume) and a free action breath weapon... You shouldn't have been able to hit it.

But all in all... gunslingers are really good at killing dragons, and other things relying on a massive natural armor(pretty much all things big).

[Squirrel_Dude]

Alchemy ammo also lowers reloading.
One handed goes from standard to move then to free (rapid reload and Alchemy ammo).
Two handed for from full rd to standard then move then free (requires musket master).I don't see a mention of alchemical ammunition, and he's not using a musket, he's using a double barrelled pistol. Unless he's using alchemical ammo, then he can take 2 shots one round and then reload his gun all of the next round, or 1 shot and reload each round. If he's using alchemical ammunition, then his misfire chance is at best 1 to 3.

Also: Hurr Durr Deadshot grit ability allows all of those attacks, kind of. *facepalm* I Should've known that.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Yes, gunslinger is overpowered compared to any other noncaster. Dex to damage with ranged attacks, all attacks hitting touch AC, and ability to stack deadly aim on that. People generally considered Wraithstrike a broken spell b/c it let you full attack power attack against touch AC for a round. Gunslinger can do that and stack it w/ rapid shot and TWF tree and do it repeatedly.

It's expensive, sure. But campaigns use wildly varying treasure payouts, so balancing weapons by cost is a terrible way to handle it. And gunslingers can make their own ammo and guns for 1/5 the price anyway, thanks to PF breaking the crafting rules, just for guns. So they didn't even really balance the weapon style by expense.

[Starbuck_II]

I don't see a mention of alchemical ammunition, and he's not using a musket, he's using a double barrelled pistol. Unless he's using alchemical ammo, then he can take 2 shots one round and then reload his gun all of the next round, or 1 shot and reload each round. If he's using alchemical ammunition, then his misfire chance is at best 1 to 3.

Also: Hurr Durr Deadshot grit ability allows all of those attacks, kind of. *facepalm* I Should've known that.

You need to reread his post:


I have rapid reload and use alchemical rounds, so reloading is a free action for me.

[nyarlathotep]

The gunslinger still deals less damage than an archer paladin.

[Xerxus]

The gunslinger still deals less damage than an archer paladin.

Even against... neutral opponents?

[randomhero00]

IIRC from my campaigns, gunslinger is strongest around 10. He's generally considered weak the farther you get away from mid levels (below or above).

[Squirrel_Dude]

You need to reread his post:Yesh I does.

Though that raises the misfire to 1-3, so with 3 attacks a round, he has a 38% chance of misfiring every round. With the 6 attacks (max of 3 targets) model he also has the misfire chance goes to 62%. If he misfires once, the next attacks increase to chances of 58% and 82% respectively. For 3 more levels, after that it doesn't apply anymore because pistoleros can't misfire anymore. So yeah, there is a risk to it, for a little bit. >.>

[Vent Reynolt]

Gunslingers aren't necessarily overpowered, but they are certainly broken. In more than one sense of the word. The problem is that nowhere in the class does it actually address the worst problems with the firearms rules, namely the ridiculous price for ammunition, and the terrible misfire rules. (Unless you're playing a Pistolero, or Musket Master, in which case you have to wait until level thirteen before you don't have to worry about your weapon breaking whenever you roll a one, two, or three, in addition the fact that you automatically miss.)

However, someone had the bright idea that instead of dealing with those problems, the class will instead give you a few powerful/ borderline broken abilities, namely full Dex to damage at level 5 (Really, it could have just been 1/2 Dex mod, raised to full Dex mod at 20), the called shot deed that lets you resolve a trip or a disarm (at range) vs. your target's touch AC instead of their CMD, and the Bleeding shot deed.


It's expensive, sure. But campaigns use wildly varying treasure payouts, so balancing weapons by cost is a terrible way to handle it. And gunslingers can make their own ammo and guns for 1/5 the price anyway, thanks to PF breaking the crafting rules, just for guns. So they didn't even really balance the weapon style by expense.

Actually, alchemical cartridges are made at 1/2 cost, so it costs six gold per attack for the privilege of being able to make a full attack.

Also, it's important to note that for early firearms, attacks are made against touch AC only within the first range increment, and they only have five range increments, like a thrown weapon.

[Starbuck_II]

You could get a Musket Axe and then 3 levels of Magus (blackblade), as a slashing weapon the whole weapon is now immune to being broken.

It is also magical. It requires multiclassing though.

[Xerxus]

You could get a Musket Axe and then 3 levels of Magus (blackblade), as a slashing weapon the whole weapon is now immune to being broken.

It is also magical. It requires multiclassing though.

That is the coolest idea - an intelligent musket axe.

[Beowulf DW]

Oh, never saw that before. I thought Paizo playtested gunslingers. Apparently I was mistaken.

Wizards have apparently never been playtested ever. So I don't see what your problem is.

[Xerxus]

Wizards have apparently never been playtested ever. So I don't see what your problem is.

Well, you are further reinforcing my point!

[Starbuck_II]

Wizards have apparently never been playtested ever. So I don't see what your problem is.



Oh, never saw that before. I thought Paizo playtested gunslingers. Apparently I was mistaken.

I was there when the open playtest for them was there.
They would only listen to how guns were currently (no changes were going to happen). So other than letting gunslinger make guns/ammo for decent price (had to pay full price for playtest) and starting gun not be worth much: Paizo didn't do much.

So they did get upgraded. In a small way.

[Ellrin]

Actually, alchemical cartridges are made at 1/2 cost, so it costs six gold per attack for the privilege of being able to make a full attack.

Can you use abundant ammunition with alchemical cartridges? They're non-magical, so it should work, right?

[NamelessNPC]

I'm not going to do the math because I'm lazy, but are you supposed to have a +6 belt and 2 +1 Frost Holy weapons at level 10? Maybe that is the problem, you buy better than the rest of your party and an increased treasure leads to bigger differences in combat

EDIT: Ok, I did the math, and had forgotten about the Distance property. Each one of your bad boys costs 50k in magical enhancements, and the WBL says 62k total. So there's that.

[AfroDyyd]

The Gunslinger along with the Cavalier are Paizos only non-caster classes that they made them selves. they probably tried making them higher tier or such classes that can stay on par with casters because non-casters often suck on higher levels comparatively.

My own gunslinger at level 5 has an attack of 7 and a damage output of 1D8+9 as long as I'm in pistol range. and free action reloads. all without the help of magical items(our campaign is low magic and wordcasting). say I make my starting pistol masterwork by the time I'm level 5 and probably make a few more/better ones I'll be rolling in damage output.

[Averis Vol]

I'm actually glad I walked in on this thread. I'm playing a level 4 fetchling gunslinger (mysterious stranger & musket master) and I trivialized almost all of our encounters last night. First there was a huge sized spider that I one shot with a lucky crit, then I 2 shot a direwolf in a later random encounter before the other person woke up. Later we were attacked by the rest of the wolfs pack and two rounds saw all 8 of them dead, though this time the rogue/alchemist actually got to attack...

so basically, The alchemist got 1 kill all session, I cleaned up everything else before he could act. So this actually confirmed that I may need to switch out characters.

[NamelessNPC]

You may not have to switch your character, as long as there's some non combat encounters in your campaign. Keep in mind the alchemist can do a lot of things and you just shoot.

[Averis Vol]

He traded away all his out of combat stuff to make him more assassin-like.

This was all more of a problem of us building characters independently and not really thinking of a team comp. It also stems from the fact that I like to build the strongest character possible within the confines of the games power level, and the other guy is kind of.....well, he only thinks stats and still isn't very good.

[Squirrel_Dude]

Can you use abundant ammunition with alchemical cartridges? They're non-magical, so it should work, right?Yep, it should work. If you can convince your wizard to write down and prepare the spell, that is.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Or there's level dipping. Or UMD skill with a wand. An oil is even possible. If you plan to spend more than 50 gp in a fight on ammo, using oil/potion of Abundant Ammunition is worth it.

[BlackDragon]

Thanks for all the responses everybody. In terms of gear, both the weapons and belt were made by party members, so everything only costed half price (makes gearing up significantly easy) and still fits well within the $68K I should have at this level.

I guess the main thing I've been 'missing' is the extra misfire chance on the alchemical round. I'll have to keep an eye on that and see what changes that makes to the gameplay (for the next few levels, at least).

[Raven777]

Yeah. My own Gunslinger died a rather ignominious death from blowing up his own musket, so make sure you watch out for these misfires. By forcing you to interrupt your full attacks to quick clear or risk blowing yourself up carrying on, they usually throw a huge, random spanner in your damage output / action economy.

[DonDuckie]

Thanks for all the responses everybody. In terms of gear, both the weapons and belt were made by party members, so everything only costed half price (makes gearing up significantly easy) and still fits well within the $68K I should have at this level.

I guess the main thing I've been 'missing' is the extra misfire chance on the alchemical round. I'll have to keep an eye on that and see what changes that makes to the gameplay (for the next few levels, at least).

If we consider the double pistol a double weapon:
pistol: 1700
master work: 600
+5 on both barrels: +50,000 x2
belt +6: 36,000

enchantments: 136,000 gp
half that = 68,000 = your entire WBL in two items(and I didn't include the price of the gun)... I wouldn't call that well within...

[gartius]

Thanks for all the responses everybody. In terms of gear, both the weapons and belt were made by party members, so everything only costed half price (makes gearing up significantly easy) and still fits well within the $68K I should have at this level.

I guess the main thing I've been 'missing' is the extra misfire chance on the alchemical round. I'll have to keep an eye on that and see what changes that makes to the gameplay (for the next few levels, at least).

So if these are the only two items then yes, but if you have other items as well (which you would assume) that would push you over in terms of WBL.

In terms of what gunslingers need though, they are pretty SAD which is lucky-(pick up the reliable enchantment for your guns to deal with the mischance issue)

It does sound that the dragon was badly played if it allowed you to get within touch range.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I like how people assume games stay strictly to the wealth by level without deviation. Or conveniently forget that those numbers are what you should have upon ENTERING that level. In other words, when he hits 10, he should have a certain amount, then between 10 and 11 he is accumulating wealth such that when he hits level 11, he has level 11 wealth. OP never said how far into the level he is.

And misfire is a stupid balance point. It means he'll be overpowered in combat and then randomly one day he's useless. They had this sort of "balance" back in 2E (and possibly older, but I wouldn't know) for some spells, and scrapped it for 3E for good reason.

[Wings of Peace]

I like how people assume games stay strictly to the wealth by level without deviation. Or conveniently forget that those numbers are what you should have upon ENTERING that level. In other words, when he hits 10, he should have a certain amount, then between 10 and 11 he is accumulating wealth such that when he hits level 11, he has level 11 wealth. OP never said how far into the level he is.

And misfire is a stupid balance point. It means he'll be overpowered in combat and then randomly one day he's useless. They had this sort of "balance" back in 2E (and possibly older, but I wouldn't know) for some spells, and scrapped it for 3E for good reason.

People assume the default WBL tables because those are the values told to game masters to for a balanced campaign.

Edit: Not that they're always accurate.

[DonDuckie]

I like how people assume games stay strictly to the wealth by level without deviation. Or conveniently forget that those numbers are what you should have upon ENTERING that level. In other words, when he hits 10, he should have a certain amount, then between 10 and 11 he is accumulating wealth such that when he hits level 11, he has level 11 wealth. OP never said how far into the level he is.

And misfire is a stupid balance point. It means he'll be overpowered in combat and then randomly one day he's useless. They had this sort of "balance" back in 2E (and possibly older, but I wouldn't know) for some spells, and scrapped it for 3E for good reason.

I don't necesarily assume WBL, but if I'm asked about why a character is performing above expectations, I take the liberty of assuming that WBL is the expectations. Any wealth is valid as an option. But it changes CR: an NPC with class levels and NPC wealth is CR = HD-1, an NPC with class levels and PC wealth is CR = HD.

And misfire is IMO a good mechanic. It forces the player to have a backup firearm or some other way of overcoming a fact of the world(like traps, and save-or-dies, and gravity).

[StreamOfTheSky]

A better method of balance would be if guns did similar damage output to other weapons. Then wealth level or random bad luck wouldn't be necessary for them to be balanced. You know, like how every other weapon is designed? Like how greatsword does more damage than a falchion, but falchion has higher threat range? These things may not be perfectly even trade offs (falchion is better, generally), but at least the tradeoffs are independent of campaign and DM.

[Gnaeus]

If he is OverPowered because he broke wbl.
And
If he broke wbl because of the actions of his teammates.
Then
He isn't OverPowered. Party as a functioning whole is OverPowered. The caster shouldn't say "That sucks, look at how he dominated the encounter." He should say..."See that gun, see that belt? I made those!".

At that point, DM should shrug, realize party as a whole is a bit up the optimization scale, and start adjusting the CRs and exp from encounters accordingly. Either just by using more or higher CR enemies, or by raising the optimization level of the bad guys

[StreamOfTheSky]

He's outperforming the other PC's.

Presumably they are *also* benefiting from super high wealth from the crafting feats.

[Gnaeus]

He's outperforming the other PC's.

Are you in the game? If not, all I see is that he is outdamaging the other PCs. That isn't the same thing at all.

Gunslinger is good at only 1 thing, ranged damage. Thats all, nothing else. If he wasn't better at that than anyone else, his suckiness would be legend. So he is outdamaging the casters 2-1. Great! They helped him to get those numbers, and they are way more effective at anything that does not involve murder.

This is why charge/pounce barbarian is T4 not T1. Like gunslinger, he has 1 trick, which is a good trick when it works. If anything, Gunslinger is worse than barbarian. He is dependent on a single item, which could be taken away, whereas a standard barbarian can kill things with a staff. He has to get up close to kill things just like the barbarian, but he is also vulnerable to all the game's anti-missile weapon tricks, like wind wall or anything blocking line of sight.

I don't see his party composition. If there are other combat muggles who are struggling beside him, that may be an issue. If the other PCs have a lot of utility, he should be expected to outperform them in combat. They may also have double WBL, but have spent it on more diverse things for their characters, like methods of flight, stealth, miss chances, out of combat utility, etc.

[Crustypeanut]

The thing about Gunslingers (especially Double-Barreled Pistol using ones), is that they have their limits. Yes, they hit like semi-trucks filled with platinum going 90 on a freeway, but they're still limited.

My current group has a Gunslinger at level 5 (And thus he just got his "Oh god why does he do that much damage" ability, known as Pistol Training (He's a Pistolero), and he just built a Large Double Barreled pistol, which is basically his only valuable item besides an amulet of natural armor +1. This guy is the group's "Hey we need you to kill the really dangerous guy while we distract his minions" guy. He certainly out-damages when it comes to single targets, though the Fighter with Great Cleave has been amazing at taking out minions. (Going as far as punching 4 riding dogs with one attack and taking 3 of them to 0 hp from full WITH HIS FIST.)

However, considering the campaign we're doing is a campaign on the high seas (Woo for Pirates), he's already found numerous limitations where he's less than useful. For one, on a crowded ship, he has troubles with line of sight and he does not yet have Precise Strike, although he may have gotten it at 5th level, I'm not sure. Thus while his accuracy is still great, he misses far more often due to soft cover and shooting into melee. A second limitation is when they've had to go underwater. Or fight things in the water. When underwater, his guns are completely useless, and he has to rely on a Light Underwater Crossbow, severely limiting his damage. When fighting things that are in the water, they usually have improved cover (+8), which hampers him quite a bit.

In the water, the Rogue and the Summoner's Eidolon are the ones that shine greatly. The Rogue is an Undine, and both him and the Eidolon have swim speeds. The Gunslinger not only has maybe 1 rank in Swim, but he's near useless when it comes to fighting in or around water and he knows it.

---------------

Now, when it comes to DMing against a Gunslinger (Which I am doing), you have to take into consideration a few things if you don't want him to completely wreck your plans with his high damage.

First, you need to have your monsters/npcs use cover. If they're smart, and if they know anything about guns, they'll use cover to try and save their asses. Second, you need to keep in mind range. A Pistolero with pistols only has a 20 ft range. The OP has Distance on his, so this is harder at 40 ft. Still doable, though it depends on the enemy. Third, firearms have numerous weakspots. Some spells can affect them, causing misfires or dampening the gunpowder, making it useless. They're far more vulnerable than bows or crossbows. Water is their #1 enemy, as well. Hit them with an Aqueous Orb and their gun will be wet inside it's barrel, arguably hard to fire if not impossible until they dry it out.

Still, Gunslingers are a fun class, and in my campaign, being a pirate campaign, I plan on including a few for the players to fight. :smallbiggrin:

[Vent Reynolt]

This is why charge/pounce barbarian is T4 not T1. Like gunslinger, he has 1 trick, which is a good trick when it works. If anything, Gunslinger is worse than barbarian. He is dependent on a single item, which could be taken away, whereas a standard barbarian can kill things with a staff. He has to get up close to kill things just like the barbarian, but he is also vulnerable to all the game's anti-missile weapon tricks, like wind wall or anything blocking line of sight.


Fun fact: Wind wall only provides a 30% miss chance against firearm attacks (It's not an arrow or bolt), which would be completely negated by the seeking weapon enhancement (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/seeking). And considering that Seeking also ignores miss chance from total concealment (lack of line of sight), provided that you know the square, there's little reason not to get it.

Now, total cover (no line of effect), that's a different story. Can't think of an easy way to best that. :smalltongue:

[Squirrel_Dude]

There is actually a really easy way around total cover for gunslingers, if they really need it. The requirements for the feat are annoying, but it's there.

Ricochet Shot (www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/ricochet-shot-deed-grit)

Shoot a bullet off the wall and hit them in the back. It doesn't cost grit points unless you want to ignore concealment as well.

[Vent Reynolt]

I stand corrected. Now why couldn't that have been a standard gunslinger deed and "Targeting" been a feat?

[Gnaeus]

Fun fact: Wind wall only provides a 30% miss chance against firearm attacks (It's not an arrow or bolt), which would be completely negated by the seeking weapon enhancement (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/seeking). And considering that Seeking also ignores miss chance from total concealment (lack of line of sight), provided that you know the square, there's little reason not to get it.

And the way you know the exact square is? The barbarian can at least move into the obscuring mist and hit you when he finds you.

[Squirrel_Dude]

Because you should have to work at least a little bit to be able to ignore all armor and tower shields.

[Crustypeanut]

Indeed there are ways, but they have to spend resources to get past them, when using cover rarely requires the spending of precious resources like feats.

If the Gunslinger has spent his feats to get past that obstacle, then thats his loss of other feats, which is fine. The gunslinger in my campaign is actually not going after Precise Shot or Improved Precise shot, as his logic is that "Cover doesn't matter that much if you put enough lead in their direction." A quote from him when I asked about what feats he was looking into.

He wants Snap Shot instead. Oh god.. the pain that will be.. knowing him he'll take Combat Reflexes too.

[Squirrel_Dude]

Let me say this about gunslinger equipment. The way they decided to do misfire on scatter weapons is so incredibly stupid it baffles the mind.

The only way you can misfire with a scatter weapon is if you misfire on every attack roll. Which means that when a gunslinger using a blunderbuss has a 10% chance to misfire if they are shooting at one person, but a 0.001% by the time they are firing at 3 people. This doesn't just mean that the gun is more accurate when firing at more people but that the gun is more stable.

The effect is the same with people are non proficient with firearms.

[Vent Reynolt]

And the way you know the exact square is? The barbarian can at least move into the obscuring mist and hit you when he finds you.

Perception is a class skill. And Wisdom is your secondary ability score. It's not ideal, but it should certainly be possible to find someone even if they're invisible/hidden in fog or obscuring mist.

Or, worst case scenario, you could just spray and pray. :smalltongue: Or, you could just grab a scatter weapon and shoot everything in a cone. (Huh, would gun training count as precision damage?)

Edit:

Let me say this about gunslinger equipment. The way they decided to do misfire on scatter weapons is so incredibly stupid it baffles the mind.

The only way you can misfire with a scatter weapon is if you misfire on every attack roll. Which means that when a gunslinger using a blunderbuss has a 10% chance to misfire if they are shooting at one person, but a 0.001% by the time they are firing at 3 people. This doesn't just mean that the gun is more accurate when firing at more people but that the gun is more stable.

The effect is the same with people are non proficient with firearms.

Misfire rules are dumb. :smallsigh:

[Starbuck_II]

Let me say this about gunslinger equipment. The way they decided to do misfire on scatter weapons is so incredibly stupid it baffles the mind.

The only way you can misfire with a scatter weapon is if you misfire on every attack roll. Which means that when a gunslinger using a blunderbuss has a 10% chance to misfire if they are shooting at one person, but a 0.001% by the time they are firing at 3 people. This doesn't just mean that the gun is more accurate when firing at more people but that the gun is more stable.

The effect is the same with people are non proficient with firearms.

I love scatter guns, Blunderbuss and shotgun for life yo!
Why didn't they make a double Blunderbuss?

[Gnaeus]

Perception is a class skill. And Wisdom is your secondary ability score. It's not ideal, but it should certainly be possible to find someone even if they're invisible/hidden in fog or obscuring mist.


It should certainly NOT. That is an opposed perception check vs their stealth. Yeah, you have the advantage there. + 1 dc per 10 feet. That is probably +2-4. Another penalty for distracting conditions (combat). You can probably still do that.

Oops. Pinpointing a square is +20 DC (environment rules). Assuming that your enemy caster did not pimp stealth (not a good assumption in PF) and that he has no dex bonus (another bad assumption), your 10th level gunslinger (max ranks, +3 in class, +5 wisdom -2 distance, -2 noisy combat =+14) should have a roughly 50/50 chance of locating a first level cleric wearing medium armor and a shield (stealth of -6). Against a cloth caster or druid with decent stealth ranks and a +1 or 2 dex, your chances drop to close to 0.

When at level 10, your entire class can get shut down by first level spells, I do not call you overpowered. At all.

[Vent Reynolt]

It should certainly NOT. That is an opposed perception check vs their stealth. Yeah, you have the advantage there. + 1 dc per 10 feet. That is probably +2-4. Another penalty for distracting conditions (combat). You can probably still do that.

Oops. Pinpointing a square is +20 DC (environment rules). Assuming that your enemy caster did not pimp stealth (not a good assumption in PF) and that he has no dex bonus (another bad assumption), your 10th level gunslinger (max ranks, +3 in class, +5 wisdom -2 distance, -2 noisy combat =+14) should have a roughly 50/50 chance of locating a first level cleric wearing medium armor and a shield (stealth of -6). Against a cloth caster or druid with decent stealth ranks and a +1 or 2 dex, your chances drop to close to 0.

When at level 10, your entire class can get shut down by first level spells, I do not call you overpowered. At all.

Then if you're a ranged character who didn't bother to improve perception beyond the standard baseline of max ranks, then you've still got:

a) Venture into the mist. The caster lacks line of sight to you as well, and with Snap Shot, you can be very scary even in melee. (Especially Pistoleros)

b) Fire randomly into squares. Decent attack bonus + attacks as touch attacks + ignoring miss chance when you pick the right square gives the spray and pray approach a decent chance of scoring a hit. (Terrible waste of money and time, though, unless Abundant Ammunition is allowed to work on you)

c) Use a scatter gun. No fussing about squares. Just attack all of them.

d) If concealment through fog spells is a big enough problem, grab a Goz Mask (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/m-p/mask-goz). 8k, and you can see right through every fog spell ever.


I'm not claiming that Gunslingers are overpowered, and never have (In fact, I'd claim the opposite because their darn class features never address the core weaknesses with firearms when you need them addressed most: at low levels.) All I was pointing out was that the standard tactic against ranged characters of hiding behind a wind wall is not going to be much help against a gunslinger.

[Tokuhara]

If I ever get to DM a PF game with a Gunslinger in it, there will be two special intelligent firearms with with only sound bites for speech. And they will be the Halo Announcer's Voice.

Just imagine:

You're a gunslinger in my game with a special blunderbuss called The Running Riot. You drop multiple goblins when you hear this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bd7fnUeIiQI) with each successful kill.

The other is a musket with a scope called The Sharpshooter.

And both will use the Shotgun Spree (Running Riot) and the Sniper Spree (Sharpshooter) lines.

[Daftendirekt]

If I ever get to DM a PF game with a Gunslinger in it, there will be two special intelligent firearms with with only sound bites for speech. And they will be the Halo Announcer's Voice.

Just imagine:

You're a gunslinger in my game with a special blunderbuss called The Running Riot. You drop multiple goblins when you hear this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bd7fnUeIiQI) with each successful kill.

The other is a musket with a scope called The Sharpshooter.

And both will use the Shotgun Spree (Running Riot) and the Sniper Spree (Sharpshooter) lines.

Best. Idea. Ever.

[Tokuhara]

Best. Idea. Ever.

I borderline want to put that post and frame it on my wall...

[Crustypeanut]

The Gunslinger in my group has a Large Double-Barreled Silver-Plated Pistol named "Mercy". XD

[Certified]

The Kung-Fu Movie Storyline

One amusing storyline might be a band of Monks hunting down Gunslingers to try and prove that martial arts are stronger than guns. Of course these characters would have their touch attacks pushed as high as possible, so their damage maybe a bit low, but that's okay. Well, if you can make an Amulet of Mighty Fists Agile it could get nasty.