Trying to Make a 5th lvl Spellsword Gish with 16 BAB and 9th Level Spells at level 20

[IserLuick]

Hi everyone!

I'm new in this forum, I like to play D&D 3.5 with my friends; specially, I like the building of cool multiclass characters.

I've been investigating the "Gish" characters and I found this amazing multiclassing thread: Multiclassing for Newbies: A reference guide for the rest of us (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=225901)

It says thet the "litmus test" for a Gish build is +16 Base attack bonus and 9th level spells by level 20, and I think that's quite an amazing thing to do.

I find this idea very interesting, as I like a lot the concept of a character with good armor and a sword that can cast arcane spells pretty decently (it reminds me of the Final Fantasy characters, although these can do pretty much anything and they would be like superheroes in D&D).

Well, what I want to accomplish is a Gish character with 5 levels of the Spellsword prestige class (to get the Channel Spell 3/day) that can get to +16 BAB and 9th Level spells at level 20; however, I got stuck. Let me share with you the build that I have in mind:

5 Wizard/1 Fighter/2 Eldritch Knight/5 Abjurant Champion/5 Spellsword/2 Eldritch Knight

This build can get +18 BAB, but the spellcaster level only gets to 16, and I need just one more to use the 9th level spells.

The main problem that I have is that, to get +16 BAB I can have 4 class levels that do not add any BAB progression, wich is ok; however, to cast 9th level wizard spells, I need a minimum spellcasting level of 17, wich means that I can have only 3 class levels that don't give spellcasting levels.

The 5 levels of Spellsword give only 3 spellcasting levels, so that's two of them out of the way, wich means that I can have only 1 more class level that do not add spellcasting progression to make it to level 17; however, here is the problem:

1.- The Fighter level is required to fulfill some requirements to be a Spellsword (proficiency with all martial weapons and armor) and,

2.- The Eldritch Knight prestige class does not add a spellcasting level at it's first level, intead it gives a Bonus feat.

I've tried to look for more prestige classes with good BAB and full spellcasting advancement, but all I've found do not add spellcasting levels from the first level. I haven't found another prestige class like the Abjurant Champion, with full BAB and spellcasting progression.

I don't know yet if there's a feat that can add a spellcasting level in terms of spell progression (the Practised Spellcaster feat does not affect the spells per day or spells known).

I would be very grateful if you could give me some advice here. If it's not possible to accomplish this with the rules available, at least I tried :smalltongue:.

I don't have a very good english; if I didn't explain myself properly, I'll edit this thread if you tell me.

Thanks for your attention!

Have a nice day! :smallsmile:

[Snowbluff]

Well, here's an easy fix. Drop 2 levels of Spellsword for 2 levels of Wizard. You get a caster level back for the cost of 1 BaB, which you have in excess.

Or just god Wizard6/Swiftblade9/AbjurantChampion5.

Or Sorcadin.

Or take Alacritous Cogitation, Versatile Spellcaster, Elven Generalist Wizard, and Domain Wizard. It gives you 9 level casting at level 1.

[Lostbutseeking]

Your current build doesnt actually work as you don't meet the BAB requirements for Abjurant champion (+5).

The only way I can see for this off the top of my head is to use the outsider type (Neraphim or any LA 1 outsider with LA buyoff) , or the Militia regional feat (thanks Eldariel) to get all martial weapon proficiencies and then spend 3 feats ( or use Dragonslayer) to get the armor proficiencies. That lets you drop the fighter level which in turn means you can get 17 spell casting levels.

You would do something like this:

Wizard 5 / Eldritch Knight 2 / Spellsword 5 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Eldritch Knight 3

You can use the Eldritch Knight feat for one of the armor proficiency feats and use the martial wizard variant to replace scribe scroll (and your level 5 feat if you don't replace that with another alternate class feature) with a fighter bonus feat that you can use.

Using Dragonslayer is similair:

Wizard 5 / Eldritch Knight 3 / Dragonslayer 1 / Spellsword 5 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Eldritch Knight 1

You use your Eldritch Knight bonus feat to get Dodge (or one of it's equivilant feats) and then either take or buy (Otuygh hole, Complete Scoundrel, 3000gp) Iron Will. You still need to be an outsider or have the Militia feat.

Both are 17 and BAB 17 CL.

Only problem with doing that Snowbluff, is that the chanelling ability is at Spellsword 4.

[jedipilot24]

My advice is to just play a Duskblade. They can do almost the same thing as a Spellsword and a lot more frequently. They may be limited to using Arcane Channeling on Touch Spells, but they've got most of the good ones; at higher levels, they can even incorporate it into a full-attack. Combine with Arcane Strike and Quick-Casted True Strikes.
No 9th level spells but I've always thought that that's overrated when it comes to gish characters. Gish are meant to be Strikers or, as Treantmonk calls them, Glass Cannons. You don't need 9th level spells to be an effective gish, as the Duskblade proves.

[Randomguy]

Why would you want spellsword levels? It's not a very good class. Most builds only take the first level.

Also, your build doesn't work. You need +5 BAB to qualify for abjurant champion, and you only have +3.

Try:

Wizard 6/Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327) 3/Dragonslayer 1/Spellsword 5/Abjurant Champion 5.

You need Dodge, Mobility and either weapon proficiency (any martial weapon) or just be an elf by level 6 to get into swiftblade.

You need Iron will by level 9 to get into Dragonslayer (a prestige class from Draconomicon).

Dragonslayer grants proficiency with all simple and martial weapons, and all armours and shields, so this lets you qualify for Spellsword.

[Eldariel]

The only way I can see for this off the top of my head is to use the outsider type (Neraphim or any LA 1 outsider with LA buyoff) to get all martial weapon proficiencies and then spend 3 feats ( or use Dragonslayer) to get the armor proficiencies. That lets you drop the fighter level which in turn means you can get 17 spell casting levels.

You could also use the Militia regional Forgotten Realms feat for MWPs. Unfortunately that's still a 4-feat tax to enter.

[Lostbutseeking]

You could also use the Militia regional Forgotten Realms feat for MWPs. Unfortunately that's still a 4-feat tax to enter.

Good catch, I didn't realise that existed.

With the Dragonslayer route using Otyugh hole you are only one feat out of pocket if you use Militia which isn't dreadful.

[IserLuick]

I fixed the build that I mentioned in my first post, I was writing the total class levels of the build, regardless of the order.

I didn't know that there was a feat like the Militia regional Fortoggen Realms feat, thank you Eldariel!

Lostbutseeking, I didn't look the Dragonslayer prestige class, that was exactly what I was looking for to fill that missing spellcasting level. Thank you very much! Now the build can efectively have what I was trying to get. I also didn't know about the Otyugh Hole on the Complete Scoundrel book, that's pretty cool!

jedipilot24, I like the Duskblade class a lot, I'm playing one (lvl 13) in the current game with my friends and it has worked pretty good, I enjoy playing this class.

What I intend to do with the 5th Level Spellsword Build is to put the Smiting Spell metamagic feat to this character and, as the touch spell can stay in the weapon for 1 minute before it dissipates, I could unleash it in a full-attack, the only thing it would lack is the multi-enemy effect that Duskblades can do with the full-attack Arcane Channeling. Also, as a Spellsword, I could channel any spell instead of only touch spells (only 3 times a day, but it's still something) and release it in a full-attack, as the spell dissipates in 8 hours (it would only affect a single enemy as well).

With the Channel Spell 3/day of the Spellsword and the Smiting Spell feat, I could play almost as a Duskblade, but with a lot more spells at the cost of maybe less Hit Points... well, I need to also check for the save throws, skills and all that to make it an effective versatile character.

With a Gish character that isn't a Duskblade, I think it is interesting to look for ways to fight with melee weapons and smash spells in the enemy while you do it.

Otherwise, you would either get into the front line and fight or stay at reach for a while and cast spells, not both at the same time, and that is not so exiting from my point of view, the whole point for me is to mix these abilities.

Thanks a lot for the help! :smallsmile:

[Carth]

I will take the time to point out that with 3 levels of incantatrix and investing a feat into arcane disciple (competition), you can cast and persist divine power. The competition domain also offers greater visage of the deity, another very good spell to persist.

Otherwise, I'll throw a shoutout to builds involving unseen seer:

Ranger1/wizard2/thug sneak attack fighter1/ranger+1/unseen seer10/adjurant champion5

BAB of 16, 9th level spells, and skill points galore.

[Devronq]

Well, here's an easy fix. Drop 2 levels of Spellsword for 2 levels of Wizard. You get a caster level back for the cost of 1 BaB, which you have in excess.

Or just god Wizard6/Swiftblade9/AbjurantChampion5.

Or Sorcadin.

Or take Alacritous Cogitation, Versatile Spellcaster, Elven Generalist Wizard, and Domain Wizard. It gives you 9 level casting at level 1.


Um what? i googled and read these things and i dont see how that grants you the ability to cast 9th level spells at lv.1

[mattie_p]

[/B]

Um what? i googled and read these things and i dont see how that grants you the ability to cast 9th level spells at lv.1

There is some heated debate on this forum in regards to its function. Suffice to say, I have never seen a game that allowed that particular reading.

[Eldariel]

[/B]

Um what? i googled and read these things and i dont see how that grants you the ability to cast 9th level spells at lv.1

This thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-226749.html) has the explanations.