New to DM - would this be a fun scenario?

[ddude987]

Hello fellow forum goers,
I have recently started a campaign with several friends. While I have played in campaigns I am new to DMing one. Soon college is going on spring break and some of my party is leaving and will not be able to play. The people that are staying however want to keep playing. There is enough people to keep playing as we have a large play group. I didn't want the people that are leaving to feel penalized and miss the quest the PCs are on.
Currently the PCs are entering Orc territory to overthrow an Orc leader. I was planning on them just tearing up the country side and finishing the quest however as I said before, people are going on break. I decided a nice course of action would be the PCs are captured and the orcs throw them in a sort of gladiator arena for sport where they have to fight out monsters and other plan an escape on the side.

First question: Has anyone done anything like this or does anybody have any ideas/input on how to run this as I can't really think of much past the basic concept?

Secondly: Does this seem like a fun sidetrack from the main quest that players would enjoy while not progressing the story so others are left behind? (The group is mainly hack and slash)

Thanks so much!

[ArcturusV]

Well, it's something I think most DMs have done before. So most players who have had several DMs probably are familiar with.

Things to watch out for is the method that the players are captured in. This is where people tend to get ticked off if anything. Don't be too heavy handed with it. Don't just go "Oh, and you're all in chains now..." give them at least the illusion of being able to escape whatever capture is set up for them. If they kill 50 orcs in the process of getting captured it just feels better and gives a reason why Orcs might think they'd put on a good show.

[Flickerdart]

Any battle that the PCs are "supposed" to lose (such as one leading to their capture for the arena) is going to get at least some people worked up. I would strongly caution against it.

[ddude987]

Well, it's something I think most DMs have done before. So most players who have had several DMs probably are familiar with.

Things to watch out for is the method that the players are captured in. This is where people tend to get ticked off if anything. Don't be too heavy handed with it. Don't just go "Oh, and you're all in chains now..." give them at least the illusion of being able to escape whatever capture is set up for them. If they kill 50 orcs in the process of getting captured it just feels better and gives a reason why Orcs might think they'd put on a good show.

Most of them are new to DnD or at least haven't played in a serious campaign, let along 3.5 so they probably haven't seen this. Thanks for the advice. Any ideas on how to actually capture them? I agree that the more orcs they kill the more reason the orcs have for playing with them.

[Story]

Also, this isn't going to work if anyone is a tier 1 caster above level 5 or so. Even if the Orcs somehow suppressed their abilities, they wouldn't get an interesting show, and if they do get to cast, they can escape instantly.

[ddude987]

Also, this isn't going to work if anyone is a tier 1 caster above level 5 or so. Even if the Orcs somehow suppressed their abilities, they wouldn't get an interesting show, and if they do get to cast, they can escape instantly.

The party is level 4 and the I didn't want any tier 1 castings so the party consented on the t1 Cleric being a heal bot and the t1 wiz gishing.

[ArcturusV]

Have the Orcs fight tactically, especially if they want to capture people. Players typically are not good at Tactics. They're good at builds maybe. They're good at comboing powers and such. But they don't have their tactics down and most teams operate as a bunch of individuals rather than as a team. So having the Orcs fighting as a team is a huge step. Depends in part on your flavor and setting specifics for just how "As a team" actually forms up. This could be using things like Dire Wolf outriders to "herd" players and harass them. Using things like guiding them into places where they have a disadvantage, even a really simple one. A single use of Spike Stones or Caltrops have been proven to be oddly effective (And a good lesson for your players to learn). Brushing up on exotic disable weapons like Bolos and Nets is also a good idea.

[Phelix-Mu]

The only drawback that I can see, aside from the one mentioned by flickerdart and Arcturus in terms of avoiding railroading, is a possible alignment/role play issue. Depending on the characters and how the players are playing them, being forced to kill people for sport in an arena may not jive well with good-aligned PCs.

Expect resistance or jockeying for leverage, attempts to win via submission (unlikely to be popular with orcs), and likely escape plans. Be sure not to shoot down stuff for people that refuse to fight, since it is a bad idea to force PCs into activities they consider immoral. Give anyone that isn't going to fight some other role; allow them to fight animals and such, or maybe healer duty, or some other form of entertaining the orcs.

Finally, allow people looking to escape ASAP a way to feel like the plans for escape are making progress, including conspiring with fellow gladiators, befriending/bribing guards, searching for gaps in security, etc. Even if they enjoy the arena, they probably won't want to stay there longer than necessary.

Good luck. It can be tricky when players are suddenly absent. Perhaps the PC for the absent player is waylaid before the rest are captured, or maybe wanders off following a suspicious light into the forest. I would make sure this PC is not with the rest of the group for one reason or another. You can always compensate for xp gap later, but having the PC in danger while the player isn't there probably is a bad idea.

[ddude987]

Good luck. It can be tricky when players are suddenly absent. Perhaps the PC for the absent player is waylaid before the rest are captured, or maybe wanders off following a suspicious light into the forest. I would make sure this PC is not with the rest of the group for one reason or another. You can always compensate for xp gap later, but having the PC in danger while the player isn't there probably is a bad idea.

What I was going to use as an excuse was perhaps the other players escaped or something.

[ddude987]

Have the Orcs fight tactically, especially if they want to capture people. Players typically are not good at Tactics. They're good at builds maybe. They're good at comboing powers and such. But they don't have their tactics down and most teams operate as a bunch of individuals rather than as a team. So having the Orcs fighting as a team is a huge step. Depends in part on your flavor and setting specifics for just how "As a team" actually forms up. This could be using things like Dire Wolf outriders to "herd" players and harass them. Using things like guiding them into places where they have a disadvantage, even a really simple one. A single use of Spike Stones or Caltrops have been proven to be oddly effective (And a good lesson for your players to learn). Brushing up on exotic disable weapons like Bolos and Nets is also a good idea.

Are Bolos and Nets in the PH? Also I do have a tribe of goblins that decided to join the orcs when the orcs invaded and crushed all the living goblins. They ride worgs which trip as a free action. The only problem is getting a 2-hit as I have 3 players with 23+ac at level 4 and two players that are ubercharging.

[Phelix-Mu]

What I was going to use as an excuse was perhaps the other players escaped or something.

Consider having them separated from the rest of the party before the fighting begins. This is slightly more believable, if the reason for the separation is believable, and avoids the complication of important people disappearing at key moments, which often makes no sense. Also, if one party member escapes, maybe the other players will feel they should have had a chance to escape, too.

I'd suggest some kind of innocent-seeming separation, such as character x that has to disappear doesn't return from collecting firewood, and by the time the party realizes the problem, combat has begun and there is no chance to mount a search. Try to ensure that w/e it is that character x is doing, that they do it alone, since otherwise character y or z might also be away from the combat, which would be problematic.

[ArcturusV]

Bolas and Nets are both in the Player's Handbook, so even the most strident of players/DMs can't really argue with you using them. Nets in particular attack Touch AC, so can be a great equalizer against your party's higher AC.

Note that the Net thing allows for some vague stuff that isn't really RAW to be done... but isn't against RAW either. If you succeed in a Strength Check vs the netted target they are limited to the length of the net's range (usually 10 ft)... meaning you can drag them around if you want. There's no real rule I've seen (I may be wrong) about what would happen if you drag someone faster than they can move. Logically they should fall down, drag, and take damage. But it doesn't explicitly say one way or another. No one has ever really complained when I did it that way (an artifact of old 2nd edition rules where if you were pushed/pulled faster than your move rate you took damage as if you were falling the difference).

[ddude987]

Bolas and Nets are both in the Player's Handbook, so even the most strident of players/DMs can't really argue with you using them. Nets in particular attack Touch AC, so can be a great equalizer against your party's higher AC.

Note that the Net thing allows for some vague stuff that isn't really RAW to be done... but isn't against RAW either. If you succeed in a Strength Check vs the netted target they are limited to the length of the net's range (usually 10 ft)... meaning you can drag them around if you want. There's no real rule I've seen (I may be wrong) about what would happen if you drag someone faster than they can move. Logically they should fall down, drag, and take damage. But it doesn't explicitly say one way or another. No one has ever really complained when I did it that way (an artifact of old 2nd edition rules where if you were pushed/pulled faster than your move rate you took damage as if you were falling the difference).

Okay that sounds great! Thanks! I have a lot to plan for the capture. Any ideas on the arena itself? My Google skills are either rusty or I simply couldn't find anything on arenas in dnd. Im thinking simple wooden construct around a dirt pit. Traps of course, pit traps, lions (or what orcs would use) maybe something like worgs. Perhaps I'll even have them emulate a "famous" battle like they did in the movie gladiator.

[Phelix-Mu]

Logically they should fall down, drag, and take damage. But it doesn't explicitly say one way or another. No one has ever really complained when I did it that way (an artifact of old 2nd edition rules where if you were pushed/pulled faster than your move rate you took damage as if you were falling the difference).

Ah, major rules exploit here, as you could just hitch the net to the horse and send it galloping off at full quad move. Or just toss the net from horseback. Maybe this is realistic, but it doesn't sound balanced. Especially since, with equal realism, it would be very difficult for the netted person to do much of anything while being dragged around at high speed. Maybe I should get my epic monk a net....

Not to mention, a truly horrific way to kill someone.

[ArcturusV]

True, though you would have to take several feats for Exotic Weapon Prof, Mounted Combat, etc. At which point it's not nearly as bad as some other options.

Far as Orc Arena? It all depends on what the Orcs really want to see. I'd avoid the wide open dirt arena ringed by a wall with seats. It's kinda old hat. Players will expect that as well. Not to mention it's not exactly tactically interesting.

Another classic sort of image of an "Arena" or other fighting place, that is less seldom used is the dangerously elevated platforms. Which can be tactically a lot more interesting as potentially knocking someone off the pedestal they are standing on, or pushing them out of the ring is FAAAAR more lethal than anything else you can do. Add in ropes and chains that can be used, rigging nets, etc. Maybe the "Animals" are flying animals instead of lions... you got a pretty dynamic situation.

[ddude987]

True, though you would have to take several feats for Exotic Weapon Prof, Mounted Combat, etc. At which point it's not nearly as bad as some other options.

Far as Orc Arena? It all depends on what the Orcs really want to see. I'd avoid the wide open dirt arena ringed by a wall with seats. It's kinda old hat. Players will expect that as well. Not to mention it's not exactly tactically interesting.

Another classic sort of image of an "Arena" or other fighting place, that is less seldom used is the dangerously elevated platforms. Which can be tactically a lot more interesting as potentially knocking someone off the pedestal they are standing on, or pushing them out of the ring is FAAAAR more lethal than anything else you can do. Add in ropes and chains that can be used, rigging nets, etc. Maybe the "Animals" are flying animals instead of lions... you got a pretty dynamic situation.

Thanks a bunch again. Also why do they need mounted combat to throw a net?

[ArcturusV]

They wouldn't need mounted combat to throw the net. But to throw a net at someone and drag them in such a way that they take damage means... for a human, you need to be moving at least 50 ft per round. Which a humanoid typically doesn't get on their own so you're looking at horses and such. Ride By Attack would be needed to be able to do it almost immediately. So you're talking some significant feat investment to use this.

Which is why the players probably wouldn't take this option if you used it. And pointing out that the Orcs are sinking Skills (Ride), feats, etc, just to do this, means that they can more easily accept how "OP" the tactic is.

[Phelix-Mu]

Another classic sort of image of an "Arena" or other fighting place, that is less seldom used is the dangerously elevated platforms. Which can be tactically a lot more interesting as potentially knocking someone off the pedestal they are standing on, or pushing them out of the ring is FAAAAR more lethal than anything else you can do. Add in ropes and chains that can be used, rigging nets, etc. Maybe the "Animals" are flying animals instead of lions... you got a pretty dynamic situation.

Along the same lines, consider having the arena surrounded by a circular ditch filled with burning oil/tar. This could add the occasional wind-induced smoke cloud to descend on the fighters, adding temporary concealment opportunities/dangers. Being forced into the ditch of burning oil would be tantamount to death, as someone would emerge from the ditch badly injured and on fire, conditions that make continued fighting difficult at best.

You could combine the curtain of fire threat with the raised platform arena, just adds another layer of tension to this spectator sport.

[ddude987]

They wouldn't need mounted combat to throw the net. But to throw a net at someone and drag them in such a way that they take damage means... for a human, you need to be moving at least 50 ft per round. Which a humanoid typically doesn't get on their own so you're looking at horses and such. Ride By Attack would be needed to be able to do it almost immediately. So you're talking some significant feat investment to use this.

Which is why the players probably wouldn't take this option if you used it. And pointing out that the Orcs are sinking Skills (Ride), feats, etc, just to do this, means that they can more easily accept how "OP" the tactic is.

So the Orcs are going to have specific feat investment for this. It sounds like a good idea but in terms of plausibility would a few people in a band of orcs really want to try and specialize in that?

[ddude987]

Along the same lines, consider having the arena surrounded by a circular ditch filled with burning oil/tar. This could add the occasional wind-induced smoke cloud to descend on the fighters, adding temporary concealment opportunities/dangers. Being forced into the ditch of burning oil would be tantamount to death, as someone would emerge from the ditch badly injured and on fire, conditions that make continued fighting difficult at best.

You could combine the curtain of fire threat with the raised platform arena, just adds another layer of tension to this spectator sport.

I like that idea a lot. I am thinking something along the lines of fire, rigging, nets and traps, perhaps ropes to swing on, and maybe even people in the crowd will take pot shots with the occasional rock. Also perhaps an area that is greased. Not sure how obvious it is to see a greased area.

[Phelix-Mu]

So the Orcs are going to have specific feat investment for this. It sounds like a good idea but in terms of plausibility would a few people in a band of orcs really want to try and specialize in that?

If it's a good tactic to use outside of the arena (like in settlement raids), then sure, it's very plausible. Using nets to capture slaves or to nail down defenders and move them away from what they are guarding, or the like, this a very strong tactical choice. Use of wargs or w/e just makes it cooler and capable of dealing more damage.

[ddude987]

So the current scenario I have so far is:

Very large band of goblins corals the players into a valley. Perhpas make an obvious place to hide for the PCs.
The goblins go by then. When the PCs emerge they are spotted by an orc scouting party. After fighting them, they are chased by the goblins again and sandwhiched (Or maybe the evade the goblins) by orcs riding horses that then try and capture them and net them all.

What I want to do is DM this so that it isn't all moving around on the board as that could get tedious. I want the PCs to actually feel like they are being hunted and running for their lives. I want them to think that there is going to be an enemy at every turn and when they finally think they've evaded everything, the mounted orcs happen by or perhaps they knew where the PCs were and try and net them.
Any ideas on how to DM something like this? I couldn't really think of any way to play out being hunted. With mounted attackers being so much faster, I can't see how the PCs could evade them.
Ideas on what they terrain should be like? Also how to set the mood at the table. Things like that greatly appreciated.

[ddude987]

If it's a good tactic to use outside of the arena (like in settlement raids), then sure, it's very plausible. Using nets to capture slaves or to nail down defenders and move them away from what they are guarding, or the like, this a very strong tactical choice. Use of wargs or w/e just makes it cooler and capable of dealing more damage.

Thanks a bunch! I just need a bit of advice on how to set the mood of being hunted, posted in the above post. I am brainstorming ideas right now but the way to DM this is escaping me.

[Phelix-Mu]

Thanks a bunch! I just need a bit of advice on how to set the mood of being hunted, posted in the above post. I am brainstorming ideas right now but the way to DM this is escaping me.

You mean how the PCs get captured?

Well, we are already introducing mounted orcs, so have the elite orcs ride the wargs and drive packs of normal orcs toward the PCs. Maybe there are tracker orcs on foot with bows and arrows (and a couple levels in ranger), that can keep the pressure up. With superior movement to PCs (assuming PCs are on foot), the orcs can afford to pursue for long periods of time, and PCs in heavier armour will have trouble moving through the forest in any kind of speedy way. Have the mounted orcs outflank the PCs, use archers to pin the PCs down, and such.

Once the PCs have concluded that running away probably is near-suicidal (assuming they don't have some kind of spellcasting escape button...rare at such low level, excepting rope trick, which isn't really escape), then they will need a place to make a stand (or they will surrender...unlikely, but possible); have some kind of natural feature or features that the players can choose between to augment their defensive position (a giant fallen tree would be appropriate, or a waterfall coming over a small cliff, with the fight located at the base of the cliff).

The mounted orcs may toy with the party members, and make the combat as intense as possible, but allow the PCs to dominate the mook orcs on foot individually (classic circle the wagons defense situation). Thus, the mounted orc elite are eventually impressed by the combat abilities of the party members, and after capturing/subduing the PCs they offer them a chance to survive and fight in the arena.

A problem here is players that believe their character would rather die than be captured. That might be a problem, something to plan for if this sounds like a particular player's style. Also, one person doing the "death before dishonor" can encourage others to do the same, so some kind of countermeasure is probably in order.

[ddude987]

snip

That all sounds amazing. Thanks. I was thinking before more along the lines of like 20 orcs riding horses just out riding the PCs but that isn't any fun now is it. This way I can throw small groups of orcs like 2-4 at a time that are tracking and then call with horns or something the bigger band until finally the PCs are cornered.

[Deaxsa]

if you have minis, a good way to make the party feel hunted is to simply use a lot of them, in large packs. make the party make hide+move silent check, and make them (relatively) successful(this is so that the party feels hunted AND so that the party does not instantly get found and trapped/try and fight and die), unknowingly being corralled into the one spot where they will be trapped.

if you have seen the (new) hobbit movie, the scene where they are on the plains being chased by wargs, the orcs are superior in every way(numbers, power, speed.. everything except spot vs. hide, and even that only lasts so long before being detected again), so the group HAS to hide. it's the only escape. and so they run into a very well hidden hole, which is EXTREMELY convenient. now make that hole a dead end or filled with a bunch of orcs or a trap.

Finally, if you are having them roll hide and moves silently, and they roll high and try to escape the corralling, have them straight into some orc. these are hordes of orcs, remember, who are vastly superior to the party, they are everywhere; that is what sets the mood and makes the party want to run away. if you establish that the orcs are trying to capture, not kill, the party, have the trapped hole seem like it has not seen use in years, or like it's just some animal hole, or something to make it benign and innocuous. someplace that the party will not simply say "this is a trap".

[ArcturusV]

Well, draw inspiration from hunters. Because this is the feel you want to go for it. The Orcs are on home turf from the sound of it. They should have a location they KNOW is perfect for trapping people down. Some sort of hole or terrain dead end as Deaxsa mentioned. This is going to be the "kill" point that the Orcs are looking for. It's where their best are going to be set up, probably in a V formation so the players feel trapped by those Orcs who are set up beforehand, and those who are chasing them.

Then you have Orcs scattered around in bands around the place. They are Runners. They're not looking to actually fight the players but to drive them towards the designated ambush spot by just being tough enough that your players don't feel comfortable with their odds of blasting through them. At least not blasting through them before...

The Chasers. This is a band of a significant enough size to actually scare the PCs just through sheer bulk. You probably have an idea based on past history of what the players can reasonably handle in a fight. They have that idea too. Doubling that number creates an instant "oh ****!" feeling typically. They don't want to really engage the players. They are there to be chasing them, making it so the players don't feel like they can wait or hide. They have to keep moving. They want the players to wear themselves out before they get to the Trap location so they're fighting their own exhaustion on top of the Orcs trapping them.

[Deaxsa]

this is all getting really good, i think i may just use some of this for my campaign now =P

hope you don't mind, but it's relevant to what's going on(the party is *about* to be captured and sent to some sort of arena to fight for their lives and the entertainment of the sorcerer king), and it seem like a VERY interesting time with a great mood and all that, if done right. i'll post my results if it happens before you have yours, which will be about a week from now (we met just yesterday)

[ddude987]

Well, draw inspiration from hunters. Because this is the feel you want to go for it. The Orcs are on home turf from the sound of it. They should have a location they KNOW is perfect for trapping people down. Some sort of hole or terrain dead end as Deaxsa mentioned. This is going to be the "kill" point that the Orcs are looking for. It's where their best are going to be set up, probably in a V formation so the players feel trapped by those Orcs who are set up beforehand, and those who are chasing them.

Then you have Orcs scattered around in bands around the place. They are Runners. They're not looking to actually fight the players but to drive them towards the designated ambush spot by just being tough enough that your players don't feel comfortable with their odds of blasting through them. At least not blasting through them before...

The Chasers. This is a band of a significant enough size to actually scare the PCs just through sheer bulk. You probably have an idea based on past history of what the players can reasonably handle in a fight. They have that idea too. Doubling that number creates an instant "oh ****!" feeling typically. They don't want to really engage the players. They are there to be chasing them, making it so the players don't feel like they can wait or hide. They have to keep moving. They want the players to wear themselves out before they get to the Trap location so they're fighting their own exhaustion on top of the Orcs trapping them.

Thanks so much! This is absolutely what I was looking for. Looks like its time to start drawing up a detailed map of the area followed by statting out orcs and drawing up hunting parties.

[Andezzar]

So you're talking some significant feat investment to use this. While the feat investment will make the tactic a lot more effective, no feat is required. You can wield a net without proficiency (-4 to hit) and you can start dragging the victim right away if you move after the attack. Otherwise just start dragging in the next round.

You can also do this with a lasso. With haste you can do this even without being mounted. In the round after the attack you can start dragging the victim at 60-120 ft/round (double move, run)

[Alienist]

If I was playing this, I would think it would be more satisfying to do this after achieving the main mission.

You bump off the Orc Leader. huzzah! Everyone who needs to leave can now leave on a high note.

Okay, everyone else gets captured by the orcs, who then play out their sick little revenge scenario.

Twist: there are some Orcish sympathisers, who think it is wrong for them to be imprisoned and punished this way, and who want to help them escape.

Twist-twist: naturally, there was at least one spy, with a surprising yet inevitable betrayal.

Twist-twist-twist: or was it a betrayal?

Dunh dunh dunh! How deep does the rabbit hole go???

[ddude987]

If I was playing this, I would think it would be more satisfying to do this after achieving the main mission.

You bump off the Orc Leader. huzzah! Everyone who needs to leave can now leave on a high note.

Okay, everyone else gets captured by the orcs, who then play out their sick little revenge scenario.

Twist: there are some Orcish sympathisers, who think it is wrong for them to be imprisoned and punished this way, and who want to help them escape.

Twist-twist: naturally, there was at least one spy, with a surprising yet inevitable betrayal.

Twist-twist-twist: or was it a betrayal?

Dunh dunh dunh! How deep does the rabbit hole go???

Interesting... I don't know what else to say.