[PF]Esoteric Magic: choosing a spell you know

[Havoq]

Hello all. Been lurking for some time, but first post.

Oracle, Magical Linage: Summon Monster VIII
Work your way to Pathfinder Savant PrC
Esoteric Magic: Class Summoner, Summon Moster VIII
Metamagic, Heighten Spell
Equals Summon Monster IX for the Oracle as a 6th level Spell?

Esoteric Magic At each class level beyond 1st, the Arcane savant chooses a spell from any class’s spell list and thereafter treats it as if it were on the spell list of his base spellcasting classes; if his base class could not normally cast that spell, it is treated as 1 level higher. The spell’s type (arcane or divine) and save DCs function as normal for his base spellcasting class. All other restrictions of his normal spellcasting class apply. This ability does not allow other spellcasters to prepare, cast, or use spell trigger or spell completion items of esoteric spells (such as a sorcerer using a cure light wounds scroll).

Is this legal?
Is any of this legal? :smallyuk:

[gartius]

magical lineage:
Benefit: Pick one spell when you choose this trait. When you apply metamagic feats to this spell, treat its actual level as 1 lower for determining the spell’s final adjusted level.

heighten spell:
A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level.

So no. Summon monster 9 is not the same spell as summon monster 8. all heighten spell does is increase spell dcs not allow cheese like what you are attempting.

However, getting summon monster 8 at 6th level does work. Kudos.

[Ravens_cry]

.

However, getting summon monster 8 at 6th level does work. Kudos.

Woah, back up, how is this supposed to work?:smallconfused:

[gartius]

summon monster 8 is a lvl 6 spell for summoner-using the estoric magic ability from the prestige he posted he gets it on his spell list at lvl 6, since oracle gets access to the spell anyway the spell level doesn't increase.

i should also explain

However, getting summon monster 8 at 6th level does work.
this meant 6th lvl spell not lvl 6

[Ravens_cry]

summon monster 8 is a lvl 6 spell for summoner-using the estoric magic ability from the prestige he posted he gets it on his spell list at lvl 6, since oracle gets access to the spell anyway the spell level doesn't increase.

i should also explain

this meant 6th lvl spell not lvl 6
Ah, yes, that does make rather a difference. Could you do this to get summon monster IX because it is on a Preservationist Alchemist's list as a level 6 extract?

[gartius]

extract does not equal spell, so no i'm afraid.

[Alienist]

summon monster 8 is a lvl 6 spell for summoner-using the estoric magic ability from the prestige he posted he gets it on his spell list at lvl 6, since oracle gets access to the spell anyway the spell level doesn't increase.

i should also explain

this meant 6th lvl spell not lvl 6

Well, no.

What happens in this case is undefined. When the rules don't cover something, it's not the players who determine how it works, but the DM.

Not that you would get that impression in the playground with the rampant rules lawyering ... *cough*

The DM would be perfectly within his rights to say "Sure, it gets added to your spell list as an 8th level spell."

Because it doesn't say that it uses the lower of the two possible values.

Feel free to respond with actual rules text that proves me wrong. Otherwise consider yourself "citation required".

NB: no need to explain why you think it works, I understand that already. You need to show that is either the only way it should be interpreted, or the best way it should be interpreted.

[Havoq]

So no. Summon monster 9 is not the same spell as summon monster 8. all heighten spell does is increase spell dcs...

That makes perfect sense, thank you.

[Havoq]

Are there less abusive ways to use Esoteric Magic as an Oracle that won't piss off my GM? I'm playing the party healer. I want at least one trick...

[Ravens_cry]

Are there less abusive ways to use Esoteric Magic as an Oracle that won't piss off my GM? I'm playing the party healer. I want at least one trick...
Temporary Resurrection (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/t/temporary-resurrection)? Only 500 gold to raise someone for 24 hours, which in most circumstances counts as 'long enough.'

[Havoq]

Reminds me of that series, pushing up daisies.

[chaos_redefined]

Are there less abusive ways to use Esoteric Magic as an Oracle that won't piss off my GM? I'm playing the party healer. I want at least one trick...

Pick up wizard/druid spells?

[Ravens_cry]

Reminds me of that series, pushing up daisies.
That may very well have been the inspiration.

[AttilaTheGeek]

Pick up wizard/druid spells?

If you don't have an arcane caster, Greater Teleport can make your life so much easier. Other favorites of mine off the wizard/sorcerer spell list are Time Stop, Polymorph Any Object, Dimension Door, and Persistent Image. Also, Prestidigitation. *points to sig* :smallbiggrin:

[Ravens_cry]

Prestidigitation is a zero level spell. Just buy a use activated item.

[Ravanan]

Well, you can pick up a Summoner's Haste spell which comes in as a level 2 spell normally, bumped up to 3 for the lack of spell on your spell list.

You might also take a look at Magus as they get some unique and/or early access spells like Move Through Space.

By far, the biggest cheese though is using it on a Celestial Crusader Summoner's spell list. Assuming early access spells are allowed, the Celestial Crusader gets Miracle as a sixth level spell. Picking that up, there is no reason, ever, to prepare anything other than Miracle in your 6th, 7th, and 8th level spell slots. That will invoke the ire of your GM like no other though, so obviously, not a great idea generally speaking.


NB: no need to explain why you think it works, I understand that already. You need to show that is either the only way it should be interpreted, or the best way it should be interpreted.
challenge_accepted.jpg

While the GM is perfectly within his rights his to say that (or more likely and logically, to say "No early access to spells"), it just plain doesn't make sense to do it that way.

To actually formulate your version into a rule instead of a fiat: "The spell added to your spell list goes onto your spell list at the same level that it was already on your spell list at." If this is not what you are arguing, please, by all means clarify.

Your interpretation there would be an entirely rational one if the ability actually specifically added it to your list of spells known/added it to your spellbook as a wizard or magus because you would be getting a direct benefit from the ability.
HOWEVER.
The ability explicitly only adds the spell to your spell list. For Divine casters that may well be the same thing, but the Pathfinder Savant is open to all casters. Now remember that in Pathfinder, the specific always trumps the generic. That being the case, note that the clause, "if his base class could not normally cast that spell, it is treated as 1 level higher" is the specific case. There is still a generic case of course, but what you would suggest is that the generic case effectively states: You gain no benefit. After all, if you already have the spell on your list at a specific level, you gain precisely 0 benefit for adding that spell at the same level.

Furthermore, let's say that the specific case clause was not there (which, when attempting to derive the general case, we should be doing anyways). If we consider the general formulation of your argument as I laid out up above, it would then create a contradiction, because if you were to then choose a spell NOT on your spell list, it could not be added as it does not already have a listed spell level for your class; however, the text of the rule explicitly states that you can choose spells from any class's spell list. And lastly, if they choose a spell they do already have, then, as mentioned before, they get no benefit. In other words, for all spells that you might choose, you either cannot select them, or gain no benefit from selecting them.

Now then, with all of that said, please answer this for me: Why would a PRESTIGE class's trademark ability be, in the general case: "You get absolutely nothing."

Honestly, the only way that that interpretation works is if they flat out errated the ability saying, "You must choose a spell not on your spell list," or something else that, rather than clarifying that particular aspect of the ability simply renders it moot.

TL;DR: While it's perfectly reasonable for the GM to categorically say, "no early spells," as an override to RAW by appealing to balance, personal taste, or perhaps even RAI, to argue that RAW states or even implies it in this case is nonsensical. And that is why the "Spell comes in at the same level as the other class" interpretation is, while not explicitly stated, the "best way it should be interpreted."