[3.5] A Not-Theurge Theurge Class to Advance a Theurge

[Halae]

So, I had a bit of twinkery I geeked out about. What we have here is a character that can take their first mystic theurge level by level 4, rather than level 7. The setup is simple; You are a tiefling. Darkness, your spell-like ability, counts as a 2nd level spell on the cleric spell list, allowing you to apply for the divine side of your theurgery. on the other side, you take wizard, and take the precocious apprentice feat to gain a second level spell. by third level, you have two levels in wizard (because, as a tiefling, intelligence is something you have a bonus to) and one level in archivist (it's an intelligence based divine caster. what's not to love?) which allows you to seed both sides of your mystic theurge progression, and being level three allows you to fill out the skill point requirements.*

My issue, however, is how to maintain your dual progression once you pass out the other side of Mystic Theurge. Assuming you bought off your level adjustment or are playing a lesser tiefling, you're only level 13, and that's 7 levels left to go before you cap out (barring advancement into epic levels, but let's just leave that out for now).

I'm wondering, is there a way to advance both without the use of mystic theurge? that well's already dried up, after all.

*I take no responsibility for injury by flying book when you present this to your group

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Spell like abilities do not count for "Able to cast X-level spells."

Arcane Hierophant and Fochlucan Lyrist both progress Divine and Arcane casting, if you meet the prereqs.

[TaiLiu]

If I remember correctly, Legacy Champion and Uncanny Trickster can. Both have the wording '+1 level of existing class features'; this includes spellcasting.

[Namfuak]

Wizard 1/Archivist 3/Mystic Theurge 10/Legacy Champion 6, assuming your DM allows Legacy Champion to advance Mystic Theurge past 10 (technically there isn't an epic progression, at least not on the SRD) gets you 16th level wizard and 18th level Archivist casting. Wizard 3/Archivist 1/etc using Alternate Spell Source to qualify does the opposite.

EDIT: See post below, I was looking in the wrong section. Then see Mattie_P's post about why this progression sucks.

[TaiLiu]

...technically there isn't an epic progression, at least not on the SRD...

:smallconfused::smallconfused::smallconfused: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/prestigeClassProgressions.htm#epicMysticTheurge)

(Addendum: That worked?! I am surprised that one could put links on Smilies; I expected one's attempt to fail.)

[mattie_p]

There is a progression, but it is such an epic fail that most of us try to pretend it doesn't exist. (Really, gain arcane spells every odd level, and divine spells every even level? What is the point of the theurge class but to gain both each level?)

[A_S]

There actually is an official epic progression for Mystic Theurge, but it's the worst thing ever...starting at level 11, it alternates which casting class it advances, rather than doing both. So, you know, completely pointless.

It's right on the SRD list, not sure how you missed it: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/prestigeClassProgressions.htm

*edit* double-swordsage'd

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Re: the OP's idea, as mentioned, SLA's don't qualify for "able to cast spells of X level" prerequisites. Precocious Apprentice has more promise, although it has a nastily worded clause in it that by strict RAW makes your level 2 slot on the arcane side disappear when you become able to cast level 2 spells on the divine side. Versatile Spellcaster on a full-list caster (like Beguiler) has more promise, though it's not airtight, depending on a somewhat ambiguous reading of how such classes learn spells.

At any rate, because of the extant epic progression for MT, Legacy Champion doesn't technically work without houserules. If you can get Alternate Source Spell, a feat from Dragon Magazine, allowed, it might let you advance both using Ultimate Magus, as long as one of your classes is spontaneous (this would be extremely dubious and cheesy, though). Aside from that, it's pretty much "a different theurge class," "only advance one side," or "you're boned."

[Halae]

Ok, cool, thanks for the input, guys. This is impressive; yeah, I see what you mean about Darkness not qualifying for Mystic Theurge, not sure what I was thinking, but in the end it just meanas I only qualify for theurge by level 5.

Legacy champion is an interesting idea, and I've seen DMs allow it for stuff like hellfire warlock before. *scratches chin* interesting...

[Mnemnosyne]

If Sanctum Spell is ruled to 'count' for casting spells 1 level higher (a semi-popular if potentially arguable early entry trick), you can get into a theurge class at level 3. Arcane 1/Divine 1, both use Sanctum Spell to cast 2nd level spells, and qualify for Mystic Theurge at level 3.

Alternately, use Heighten Spell and Versatile Spellcaster. This requires one of your classes to have the ability to spontaneously cast spells, but note that this doesn't necessarily mean a class like the sorcerer. A druid or cleric fully qualifies to take Versatile Spellcaster, because they have the ability to spontaneously cast spells. Beyond qualifying, there is no verbiage in the feat that prohibits you from using it on spells of any class. So a Cleric 1/Wizard 1 with Heighten Spell and Versatile Spellcaster can use VS to heighten a 1st level spell of each class into 2nd level spells, thus qualifying them for entry into a theurge class (except for skill requirements; this might require you to go 2 levels deep in one class).

But your best bet, to get the best abilities out of the progression might simply be to go Wizard 1/Druid 3/Mystic Theurge 4/Arcane Hierophant 10/Mystic Theurge +2. Arcane Hierophant is a divine/arcane theurge with actual class features, and some pretty good ones at that. It also advances your animal companion in an interesting way, by combining it with a familiar (Note: you don't actually need to have a familiar in order to gain this benefit, so trade that familiar from Wizard 1 away for Abrupt Jaunt.) and continues to advance druid wildshape. So, you end up with 13 levels of wildshape and animal companion advancement, 17 levels of wizard spellcasting, and 19 levels of druid spellcasting.

[Bakkan]

I posted a similar thought-exercise some months ago here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=260030). My favorite build was Illumian Wizard 2/Archivist 2/Mystic Theurge 10/Legacy Champion 6, which gives you Wizard 17 and Archivist 17 casting by level 20 (i.e., 9ths with both).

[Mnemnosyne]

Even if Legacy Champion allows extending mystic theurge, what you'd get is the 11th and higher levels of it, which explicitly do not advance both classes simultaneously. Stupid? Yes. But that's how it works. The 11th and higher levels are printed, and those are the benefits you would get.