[PF] How late into the game does Disable Device remain relevant?

[Ellrin]

At early levels, when spells are at a premium and other abilities haven't developed, it seems like it would be largely invaluable. That said, once you get on in levels, spells... are still at a premium, but you have a wide selection and far more spells per day; and beyond spells, you have the wealth, strength, and UMD to get around locks, traps, and anything else DD would normally be useful for without having to waste the skill points.

So I'm just wondering about what level, as the party skillmonkey, I can expect to be able to safely stop sinking skill points into disable device. Obviously it's going to depend somewhat on the campaign, but what's typical?

[Ravenica]

well mileage will vary on the DM but once you can reliably hit a DC 50 you pretty much cap out on what the books have preset to throw at you

[Squirrel_Dude]

The DC to break into a wizards spell book with a superior lock is 40 to 50, depending on whether or not he has arcane lock on it. The highest disable device DC presented in the core rulebook on any trap is 34.

It should be noted that some of the traps presented in the book are spears with black lotus extract, destruction and meteor swarm spells. Those things can be nasty, and if you're doing a high level dungeon crawl, you might run into them.

Honestly though, but from levels 12 to 14 casters start just teleporting you right to where you need to go, traps be damned.

[DrKirre]

I've found there's no such thing as too much Disable Device; especially if your DM is willing to get a little creative. My rogue had a hobby of using disable device to systematically remove every lock in a city, then replace them at random. "fostering friendship and discussion amongst neighbors". From a strictly mechanical point of view, however, if you have a realiable way to take 10 then a +40's all you'll ever need.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Knock can replace the open locks function and dispel magic in PF does not cap at +10 like in 3E, so I'd say by level 10 if not sooner, a character with Disable Device is completely unnecessary.

And before then, his only use is to disarm magical traps and locks, *anyone* else can find the magical ones and find/disable/destroy the nonmagical ones.

Wait...you wanted to know how many ranks to put in, didn't you? :smallwink:

[TuggyNE]

dispel magic in PF does not cap at +10 like in 3E

Wait, what? Why? :smalleek:

[StreamOfTheSky]

Because Paizo loves their casters?

They also removed the area dispel functionality of it and only Greater Dispel gets it.

But for targeted dispelling of something, PF's Dispel Magic works just as well as 3E's Greater Dispel (sans dispelling lots of effects, just as PF's Greater Dispel, see below if you want).

It's actually much more complex than that. They changed the two spells in every way possible to simultaneously make the lower level dispel more useful for a full CL caster while at the same time limiting the amount of effects you can dispel on a creature w/ Greater Dispel so that now it's impossible in one casting to strip off EVERY buff from a high level wizard even w/ Greater Dispel at CL 20 and succeeding on every dispel check.

Casters got to have their cake and eat it, too. Go read the spells, compare to 3E versions, and see.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/dispel-magic

[Eldariel]

Disable Device remains useful but not obligatory throughout. There are certainly cases where it can be useful on level 20 but those are quite few, and its primary functionality can be replaced by spells much earlier.

[Starbuck_II]

Knock can replace the open locks function and dispel magic in PF does not cap at +10 like in 3E, so I'd say by level 10 if not sooner, a character with Disable Device is completely unnecessary.

And before then, his only use is to disarm magical traps and locks, *anyone* else can find the magical ones and find/disable/destroy the nonmagical ones.

Wait...you wanted to know how many ranks to put in, didn't you? :smallwink:

He can unlock locks in an antimagic field...might be a rare occurance but he can do that.

[Ravenica]

personally my party prefers to use a person who can defeat locks with skills rather than waste spellpower on it

[The Glyphstone]

He can unlock locks in an antimagic field...might be a rare occurance but he can do that.

Eh, that's what Barbarians are for.:smallcool:

[Snowbluff]

Well, depending on what you want to do, I guess never. I mean, if you don't want the object to be intact afterwards, why not just smash it?


Because Paizo loves their casters?

They also removed the area dispel functionality of it and only Greater Dispel gets it.

But for targeted dispelling of something, PF's Dispel Magic works just as well as 3E's Greater Dispel (sans dispelling lots of effects, just as PF's Greater Dispel, see below if you want).

It's actually much more complex than that. They changed the two spells in every way possible to simultaneously make the lower level dispel more useful for a full CL caster while at the same time limiting the amount of effects you can dispel on a creature w/ Greater Dispel so that now it's impossible in one casting to strip off EVERY buff from a high level wizard even w/ Greater Dispel at CL 20 and succeeding on every dispel check.

Casters got to have their cake and eat it, too. Go read the spells, compare to 3E versions, and see.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/dispel-magic


You know, this makes me wonder what the point was, considering that "OMG CL STACKING" seems harder in PF, reducing the need for huge dispel checks. Then again, this is PF. :smallfrown:

[Urpriest]

One thing to consider is that there are lots of adventure locations, especially at high levels, where traps just don't make much sense. They work in tombs, but anywhere people have to go about regular business won't have them.

[Blyte]

if the DM is crafty, sometimes the control box or line of sight/line of effect to dispel/disable a magical trap will lie within the trap's area of effect, and the area beyond might be warded against scrying. This can make it necessary to have a skill monkey with evasion and rogue tricks that speed up disable rolls to take down the trap. or consider a particularly deadly non-magical trap lying in the middle of a magic dead zone.

anyhow a good DM will find a way to create scenarios that will reward a master thief and let their skill shine over a wizard. especially if the casters are continually trivializing the rogue's area of expertise.

in the game DDO (D&D online), it was necessary to have a rogue/rogue-ranger/monk-hybrid with greater evasion and an extremely high reflex save, to stand inside the whirling blades and disarm the trap. often times standing on top of the dead 2rogue/18wizard who first attempted it. if you didn't have a character with that particular set of skills, it would sometimes mean an incomplete raid/party.

[Wamyen]

One thing to consider is that there are lots of adventure locations, especially at high levels, where traps just don't make much sense. They work in tombs, but anywhere people have to go about regular business won't have them.

Not true. In the Forgotten Realms fiction the royal palace in Cormyr is loaded with traps. Just in places people might not ordinarily go. They also make sense in places like mages towers and colleges, secret places in temples, pretty much anywhere that might be "guarding" something from theives. It might be something as simple as an alarm spell or mechanism, or it might be something more devious. "Those aren't the actual crown jewels... those are hidden in a stone coffer underneath those copies. And it is loaded with spring loaded spikes covered in black lotus extract, and alarm spells, and tracking spells, and a..." There are always ways to fit in traps in pretty much any location. And there are also ways to include both skill based AND magic based characters in the disarming process. There are also time to smash, and not to smash doors, thereby including the more martially aligned classes. You just have to be creative about how you put your adventures together so people don't feel irrelevent.