Grappling hooks in Combat

[LordotheMorning]

I'm playing in a pathfinder game and I have a whip and Improved Whip Mastery, which enables me to use my whip as a grappling hook. Grappling to an object requires a melee touch attack with the whip.

The problem arises when we consider what sort of action it is to swing across a space on it. There is no mention of what sort of action it is, which leads me to conclude that it's a non-action. If you connect the grappling hook, it should be a free action to let gravity swing me across. My DM has already ruled that you can 5ft. step off a ledge, land, and make your full attack at the bottom. Falling is a non-action, but he ruled that swinging requires a move action.

I find this very depressing from a game enjoyment standpoint, as one of the big reasons I was interested in whips from the start was to use the grappling hook trick. Requiring a move action to swing effectively means that I waste my entire turn grappling (as it requires an attack action to connect the hook in the first place). In a world where fly spells and the like are flying around nonstop, and a simple jump is only a move action, it's simply unusable.

Has anyone ever used a grappling hook in the middle of combat? What rules did you use?

[andromax]

I would agree that swinging would be a move action, because you are dealing with lateral movements. The same is true with flying, if you wanted to move those same squares you'd have to spend a move action.

There's really no way to justify using a whip to swing around in combat in a game where fly is available, I mean really. It could be fun levels 1-4 though, but it's probably more useful out of combat.

[LordotheMorning]

I would agree that swinging would be a move action, because you are dealing with lateral movements. The same is true with flying, if you wanted to move those same squares you'd have to spend a move action.

I think you should consider that gravity is the thing that is moving you here. Just as gravity moves you when you jump off a ledge, and as I stated in the OP, the DM has no qualms allowing someone to fall from a considerable height and then make a full attack.

[Crake]

I gotta agree with andromax, it does seem like the sort of thing that would require a move action. Think of it this way, its something that you need to expend effort to achieve (holding on while you swing across). If you need to have some kind of input for the action to work, then you would need to expend part of your action economy to do it. On the other hand, if you step off a ledge, you dont need any input, gravity does it all, whether you want it to or not.

[ArcturusV]

This is something where the "Rule of Cool" should intervene. Least in games I'd DM. Because hey, as DMs, we WANT players doing cool, fun things. Least I do. So why punish them for doing that instead of doing something more effective in every way but also more boring?

Ask your DM if you can use your whip swing as a charge? This should be a reasonable compromise. That your character could have a knife out or something, swinging across a chasm and slashing someone with your knife as you land on the other side. Or turn your swing into a drop kick. Etc.

[LordotheMorning]

I gotta agree with andromax, it does seem like the sort of thing that would require a move action. Think of it this way, its something that you need to expend effort to achieve (holding on while you swing across). If you need to have some kind of input for the action to work, then you would need to expend part of your action economy to do it. On the other hand, if you step off a ledge, you dont need any input, gravity does it all, whether you want it to or not.

Would you say that taking a 50ft. drop and rolling acrobatics to eliminate the damage would count as less strenuous that swinging 20 feet on a rope? In my perspective, if he allows one (which he has), he should allow the other.

Also, I repeat, interpreting the rules this way literally means that jumping is better in every conceivable way. It takes only a move action, whereas using this interpretation a grappling hook, which requires a specific tool and is only usable in specific circumstances (such as when something is there to latch onto), requires a full-round. Additionally, a high-modifier jump can go farther than a 15ft long whip ever could. Ergo, I would say that this is not RAI. I'm sure paizo (and wotc for that matter) wouldn't intentionally design whip-grappling to be outclassed in every aspect by skill that any character can roll.

Additionally, the entry makes no reference to the type of action it is to swing, therefore the most logical conclusion is that it isn't considered an action expenditure. Therefore it isn't RAW either. Furthermore, Rule of Cool and Rule of Fun both clearly support my interpretation. It doesn't jeopardize game balance either. It's a 3-feat exchange, forcing you to use one of the statistically worst weapons in the game for the situational ability to make a full attack (-1 attack for the initial latch) after moving the length of the swing (20-30 at maximum), in a straight line and only if there's something to latch on to. And considering I'm a Magus, I've had the ability to move while full-attacking since level 4 anyway (via the spell Bladed Dash).

Therefore:
RaW- Iffy
RaI - Heck no
Unbalanced - No
Fun/Cool? - Yes

[andromax]

Anytime you start allowing horizontal movement to not count against your movement you are opening the doors wide open for abuse, however I don't think that is your intention obviously.

It could work like you are thinking, though, if you got your DM to agree that you were 'riding' your whip. Treat it like a mount, etc. Agree on a movement speed and some other particulars.