Natural Attacks and AoO

[javijuji]

How do these work? Let's say I generate an AoO against a dragon with 2 claws, 1 bite, 2 wings and 1 tail attack. Does he get to use all his natural attacks on the AoO or only the primary one? What if I generate an AoO against someone with unarmed strike + natural attacks?

Does a monster with 2 claws and 1 bite get to hit you with all 3 attacks on a charge?

[Xenogears]

From the SRD: "An attack of opportunity is a single melee attack"

So no they only hit you once. They can choose which attack to use however so it could be any of their natural attacks.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

How do these work? Let's say I generate an AoO against a dragon with 2 claws, 1 bite, 2 wings and 1 tail attack. Does he get to use all his natural attacks on the AoO or only the primary one? What if I generate an AoO against someone with unarmed strike + natural attacks?

You choose one attack to make on an AoO even if you have multiple attacks sources and Combat Reflexes. Also movement through your threatened squares only gives you one AoO per opponent per turn regardless of how many they move through.


Does a monster with 2 claws and 1 bite get to hit you with all 3 attacks on a charge?

You make only a single attack on a charge, unless you have an ability like pounce which big cats generally have. Some lesser versions are available via feats and actual pounce can be aquired through the Feral Template or a on level dip of Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian amoungst others.

[javijuji]

When a monster sheet sais "2 claws +5" does this count like 2 attacks or 1?

[Zombimode]

"2 claws +5" means the creature has two claw attacks, each at +5 attack bonus.

So no, on an AoO it would get one claw attack.

[javijuji]

Thank you for your help. The 12 headed hydra is an exception to this rule right? That one does get 12 attacks on an AoO?

[Answerer]

Hydras do have a very strange and unique rule applied to them, yes.

[Zombimode]

Hydras (Hydrae?) are an exception, correct. Its a bit easy to miss, since they do not actually have an ability that would allow them to do so. It part of the Combat Reflexes feat. But it only works for Hydras (all Hydras, not just 12-headed, and only for their head attacks - if a hydra would gain other attacks somehow (ie. using its unarmed strikes that every creature gets, even if its not noted on the stat block) it could not use them in conjunction with its heads on AoOs.

[Khedrac]

Hydra are badly written.

The way they are worded they get a single AoO (like anything without Combat Reflexes) but use all their heads on it - so their "Attack" of Opportunity is several attacks.

The way one would expect it to work (so RAI perhaps) is that they get one AoO per head without needing combat reflexes. It then becomes the DM's call if they can use more than one head on a single provocation.

[Zombimode]

Hydra are badly written.

The way they are worded they get a single AoO (like anything without Combat Reflexes) but use all their heads on it - so their "Attack" of Opportunity is several attacks.

The way one would expect it to work (so RAI perhaps) is that they get one AoO per head without needing combat reflexes. It then becomes the DM's call if they can use more than one head on a single provocation.

I think the way it works by RAW, that a Hydra can make n head attacks (n = number of heads) on an AoO is actually the intended way.
Why? Historical evidence. In 2e there were "proto-AoOs". If you disengaged an enemy (without being covered by an ally) all enemies in range would get a free attack against you. Actually make that "free attacks" because the rule was that a creature could use all its attacks that weren't bonus attacks (such as from high Thac0 or haste). A guy with two weapons would get two attacks, a ghoul would get its claw/claw/bite routine. A hydra was used in the example. So it could be a legacy thing in 3e to retain the original "never disengage a hydra"-thing from previous editions.

Hey, I never said its strong evidence, but evidence nonetheless :smallamused:

[ddude987]

The hydra is terribly worded but you are wrong for saying it gets all of its heads on one AoO. What the book is saying is that because of Combat Reflexes a hydra gets AoO per round equal to number of heads. This is explained because a hydra has low dex and so combat reflexes wouldn't actually give it that many AoO so combat reflexes is redefined on a hydra to give AoOs per round equal to the number of heads.

[Answerer]

That's probably what they wanted to say.

It's not what the book actually says.

As you say, it's terribly worded.

[TuggyNE]

The hydra is terribly worded but you are wrong for saying it gets all of its heads on one AoO. What the book is saying is that because of Combat Reflexes a hydra gets AoO per round equal to number of heads. This is explained because a hydra has low dex and so combat reflexes wouldn't actually give it that many AoO so combat reflexes is redefined on a hydra to give AoOs per round equal to the number of heads.

It would be nice if that were true, but it definitely isn't.


Attack: 5 bites +6 melee (1d10+3)
Full Attack: 5 bites +6 melee (1d10+3)
[…]
Hydras can attack with all their heads at no penalty, even if they move or charge during the round.
[…]
Feats
A hydra’s Combat Reflexes feat allows it to use all its heads for attacks of opportunity.

On an attack of opportunity, it uses all its heads, just like it does for any other attack.

[ddude987]

Feats
A hydra’s Combat Reflexes feat allows it to use all its heads for attacks of opportunity.

Attacks is plural. It is saying that each head can do one of the multiple attacks it references.

[Answerer]

But it doesn't actually say that. That's a possible interpretation but not the only one, hence the problem.

[TuggyNE]

Of course, it should have been phrased either "A hydra’s Combat Reflexes feat allows it to use all its heads on each of its attacks of opportunity" (which is, as far as I can tell, what it actually means) or "A hydra’s Combat Reflexes feat allows it to make as many attacks of opportunity as it has heads" (which would be a bit kinder). It's not that hard to work out better wording.

Unfortunately, neither of those is how it actually goes.

[Qc Storm]

Dunno about you guys, but I just figured bombing a poor sap who triggered AoO with 10 heads is a bit overpowering. Especially considering the hydra has enough Dex to do it twice due to combat reflexes if that even works.

[TuggyNE]

Dunno about you guys, but I just figured bombing a poor sap who triggered AoO with 10 heads is a bit overpowering. Especially considering the hydra has enough Dex to do it twice due to combat reflexes if that even works.

It doesn't; you only provoke once for any given opportunity (so if you move for three squares through its threatened area, it gets one attack of opportunity when you first provoke).

No double jeopardy, in other words.

(Whether the usual function of Combat Reflexes is replaced, or augmented, by the special rules I am not quite certain.)

[Qc Storm]

I know. I meant that it could bomb the same guy twice if he like, drank a potion after being headrushed. Or just another guy.

Of course, they kind of deserve it for provoking AoO, but it spells instant death for most CR appropriate parties.

[Crake]

When you consider the context of the hydra and AoO rule, it seems silly that the bonus feat combat reflexes would give the hydra the ability to attack multiple times per provocation. Since Combat Reflexes normally grans you attacks of opportunity equal to 1+dex mod, I think it's pretty clear that the rule actually intends for the hydra to get a number of attacks of opportunity each round equal to the number of heads it has.

[TuggyNE]

When you consider the context of the hydra and AoO rule, it seems silly that the bonus feat combat reflexes would give the hydra the ability to attack multiple times per provocation. Since Combat Reflexes normally grans you attacks of opportunity equal to 1+dex mod, I think it's pretty clear that the rule actually intends for the hydra to get a number of attacks of opportunity each round equal to the number of heads it has.

Except... a) as mentioned earlier, the hydra was used in earlier editions as an example of what can go wrong if you withdraw improperly: lots of free attacks. b) The hydra's regular attack (i.e. move and attack, charge, whatever) always includes all heads; why would AoOs be any different?

RAI, then is unclear; the hydra specifically seems like it may have been intended to be that brutal with AoOs, though the more general Combat Reflexes/AoO mechanics suggest that's not likely.

On balance, though, it seems RAI may (crazy as it seems) have been to do what RAW seems to say it does.

Of course, this is probably something to houserule/RACSD away, unless your players are tactically competent enough not to be affected.