Is a primary healer class feasible?

[AttilaTheGeek]

So, I've been thinking about writing up a Pathfinder class for people who want to play an in-combat healer, complete with lots of different options for different types of in-combat healing. I'm planning on including big heals, small heals, AoE heals, shields, and heal-over-times (HoTs). My goal is to make a powerful healing support character that can allow the party to withstand longer, tougher fights than they normally would. But before I begin, I'm going to address much of the criticism levied at standard in-combat healing- namely that it's less effective than just dealing damage so enemies die faster. Is in-combat healing intrinsically bad, or just not powerful enough? How strong does it have to be to compete with damage-dealing or battlefield control?

[AuraTwilight]

The problem with in-combat healing is that usually a single healer can't keep up with the damage multiple enemies can do without busting out the ridiculously broken spells, and that characters like clerics have much more optimal moves available to them.

[ngilop]

while power gamers and better optimizers than myself ( not that it takes awhole lot fo optimization skill to best me though, LOL) might have a better and more truer reason on why in combat healing is bad

my thoughts have alwasy been the following two reasons

1) HP changed exponetially from thr tansition from 2nd to 3rd ed whilst healing ( and also direct damage spells) statd very static.

2) incomming damage outpaced outgoing healing at any level that was not 1st at a dramatic rate.

my thoughts would be to up the ante on heals so to speak having the base haling upped by 50 or more percent so cure moderate becomes 3d8 and cure serious becomes 5d8 etc. Its not that big of a change really doing it this way but that extra little bit helps.

no way does it come close to battle feild control though.

maybe do what I suggest and change it to D10s instead of D8s..? that was it goes. and bump heal down to 5th level and do a greater heal at 7th Maybe do a minor heal at 3rd?


CLW 1d10+CL 5+CL average
CMW 3d10+CL 16+CL average
CSW 5d10+CL 27+CL average
Minor Heal 8 HP per caster level max 80
CCW 7d10+CL 38+CL average
HEAL 10 HP per CL max 150 HP
Greater Heal 12 HP per CL max 240 HP

or maybe you can give them an increasing base plus the normal? example

CLW 3+1d8+CL 7+CL average
CMW 13+3d8+CL 26+CL average
CSW 33+5d8+CL 55+CL average
CCW 63+7d8+CL 94+CL average

just looking at teh pre-made PCs in teh DMG gives you HP ranges at lets saw 5th level of 19 to 43 but at 9th level it goes up to 33 to 81. I think that just making the heals themselves bigger would be a huge differece. not big enough to say one spells should bring you from 1 HP to full if yo have 300 HP but id say a 'big' heal should be able to heal you for roguhly 75% of your life at a given level on average.

I turned the cures into swift spells and then added standard action spells at 2nd and 4th level that were my big heals that healed for d6/level+CL(max d6+10) and d8/level+CL(max 15d8+15) respectively so in a round a 5th level cleric could heal for 3d8+5 and 5d6+5.

[Istari]

The best way to make an effective healing class would be to pair the healing spells/effects with things like morale bonuses for your allies or other buffs. So they serve an additional purpose beyond simple healing.

[Sho]

Or able to be done within a discernible range outside touch and able to be cast at an action faster than Standard.

[Grod_The_Giant]

To make in-battle healing useful, the healing has to outstrip your enemy's ability to deal damage, otherwise you're just spinning your wheels. And even then, you'd still probably do better as a party if you concentrated those extra actions on defeating enemies. The 3.5 Healer is tier 5 for a reason-- it's the best at what it does, but what it does isn't very useful.

[Morph Bark]

It is feasible. As long as it does other stuff simultaneous with it, so that healing isn't the only thing it's doing with its actions. Only healing? No, that just doesn't cut it.

[AttilaTheGeek]

Here's what I was thinking. Minimum assumes cleric spell progression, rather than oracle. Also, they all have ranges of 10 feet + 5 feet/two level, because 25 feet plus 5 feet/level is too much and touch is too close.

{table=head]Level|Name|Heals|Minimum|Min average|Maximum|Max average
1|Cure Light|2d6+CL|2d6+1|8|2d6+20|27
2|Cure Moderate|4d6+1.5*CL|4d6+4|18|4d6+30|44
3|Cure Serious|6d6+2*CL|6d6+10|31|6d6+40|61
4|Cure Critical|8d6+2.5*CL|8d6+17|45|8d6+50|78
5|Cure Deadly|10d6+3*CL|10d6+36|62|10d6+60|95
6|Heal|10*CL|110|110|200|200
7|Greater Heal|15*CL|195|195|300|300
[/table]

Other slots, and those above 7th level, would be for metamagic-ing in things like HoTs, AoE, and shields. Just tossing out some ideas here, and I know they aren't properly formatted.

Chain Spell
Metamagic (+0)
The healing or damage you deal with this spell is spread evenly among up to one target per three caster levels.

Rejuvenating Spell
Metamagic (+2)
The target of this spell receives healing equal to half the healing done by the initial spell spread evenly over the next four rounds. (i.e, you heal for X, then they heal for X/8 each round for the next four rounds)

Shielding Spell
Metamagic (+1)
This spell grants temporary hit points instead of healing damage.

Warding Spell
Metamagic (+2)
For 1 round per four caster levels, the recipient of the healing spell gains DR 5/Evil

Those are just some ideas. What do you think, does it deserve a write-up into a full class?

[Sho]

[Greater] Heal is fine as a Touch spell, for all that it encompasses.

There is already Mass Heal, after all.

Close Range (25 Ft. + 5 Ft./2 Levels), I believe, is fine as it is.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

The big issue seems to be the action cost of healing, so I can think of a couple suggestions.

First, maybe include some "Health stealing" spells - maybe something that creates an equal amount of positive and negative energy, healing an ally and damaging an enemy at the same time?

I've seen some stuff about healing summons that could work - spend one round summoning a creature, let it take care of the healing as you join in the fight properly.

Finally, you could give Healers a familiar- type creature that could store and distribute healing spells for them. Essentially, this would let the healer cast two spells per turn - one of them a healing spell passed through the familiar.

[mistformsquirrl]

I feel like the only way to make healing viable is to really, really beef it up - I actually did a cure/inflict fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=270899) of my own not long ago in case that's of any use.

That said the main thing people seemed to agree on to make it useful was:

A) The numbers needed to be fairly consistent to make it worth casting. Especially as these are mostly single target spells.

B) Spells needed to be Close (25+5/level feet) range at a minimum, rather than Touch.

[AttilaTheGeek]

Finally, you could give Healers a familiar- type creature that could store and distribute healing spells for them. Essentially, this would let the healer cast two spells per turn - one of them a healing spell passed through the familiar.

I'm hesitant to give a familiar for no reason other than action economy. I could make some of the spells move or swift actions if they're hurting for actions, and an immediate-action last-minute heal to save the day sounds nice.

[Sho]

I'm hesitant to give a familiar for no reason other than action economy. I could make some of the spells move or swift actions if they're hurting for actions, and an immediate-action last-minute heal to save the day sounds nice.

Then the idea that healing spells with moderate healing points and exceptional additional effects should be worked over.

For instance, drawing small inspiration from League of Legends' Soraka.


"Pall of Safety" [Sp]
Class Clr 2
School Conjuration (Healing)
Components Somatic, Verbal
Casting Time Standard
Range Close range (25 Ft. + 5 Ft./2 Levels)
Target One creature
Duration Instantaneous
Saving Throw Will halves (Harmless)
Spell Resistance Yes (Harmless)

You conjure a pall of light around a target creature which both mends its wounds and acts as a protective aura. The creature heals damage equal to 10 plus 1d8 per caster level (maximum 5d8), and it gains a +5 resistance bonus to its Armor Class and Saving Throws for 1 round.

The deflection bonus increases by +1 for every four caster levels.

[bobthe6th]

Why not static healing? like CL*(CL/4)? like heal but lower leveled.

A fast healing aura is also an option... So the caster can do other stuff and help keep the party alive. Then healing becomes used for emergency healing.

[AttilaTheGeek]

Why not static healing? like CL*(CL/4)? like heal but lower leveled.

A fast healing aura is also an option... So the caster can do other stuff and help keep the party alive. Then healing becomes used for emergency healing.

I like at least a little bit of dice rolling so that it's not the same every single time, but you make a good point of raising it quadratically.

[bobthe6th]

Well, Heal is the first solid in combat heal because it actually can take people from 0 to full HP. It does this by handing out CL(think HD)*10(better then most HP gain per level)... So you should do better then 3/CL to be effective.

[AttilaTheGeek]

Well, Heal is the first solid in combat heal because it actually can take people from 0 to full HP. It does this by handing out CL(think HD)*10(better then most HP gain per level)... So you should do better then 3/CL to be effective.

That's a good point. So maybe the level X cure should do (X+1)*CL? As in, Light cures 2*CL, Moderate 3*CL, Serious 4*CL, Critical 5*CL, and then two levels later, Heal for 10*CL?

[bobthe6th]

Sounds good, but I think you could up the power a little.

4 steps

4*CL, 6*CL, 7*CL, 8*CL.

what about slowly adding debuff removal as it goes up?

Also, I suggest a Charnel touch like rule that the cure spell harms undead as your modified spells.

[GunbladeKnight]

Well, the main problem is that Cure Critical Wounds, a 4th level spell, heals only 4d8 +CL damage, meaning it heals at max 52 damage at 20th level.

Scorching Ray, a 2nd level spell, deals up to 3 rays of 4d6 damage each, meaning at 11th level it deals a maximum of 72 damage (and doesn't increase).

Fireball, a 3rd level spell, deals 1d6 per level over an area, capping at 10d6, a max of 60 damage.

Once you get to 4th level spells, you come across save or dies.

So really, the first step would be to increase the amount of damage healed by the cure spells.

[Tavar]

Is a primary healing class possible?

Yes. Yes it is. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133118)

[Sho]

Well, the main problem is that Cure Critical Wounds, a 4th level spell, heals only 4d8 +CL damage, meaning it heals at max 52 damage at 20th level.

Scorching Ray, a 2nd level spell, deals up to 3 rays of 4d6 damage each, meaning at 11th level it deals a maximum of 72 damage (and doesn't increase).

Fireball, a 3rd level spell, deals 1d6 per level over an area, capping at 10d6, a max of 60 damage.

Once you get to 4th level spells, you come across save or dies.

So really, the first step would be to increase the amount of damage healed by the cure spells.

That's the step they are trying to climb by having healing spells restore hit points by a standard flat amount. It presents something for healing spells that not many, if any, damage spells or abilities have, and if scaled above the average rate of damage of these spells and abilities, especially if tied with additional effects, healing spells could have a possible edge.

[AttilaTheGeek]

Is a primary healing class possible?

Yes. Yes it is. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133118)

Ooh, interesting. I might incorporate some of those ideas.

And by "might" I mean "will" because what you have is fantastic.

[Tavar]

That's not my work. Just something I've seen used(very effectively).

[AttilaTheGeek]

That's not my work. Just something I've seen used(very effectively).

Oh. Well, then.

[LordErebus12]

entirely possible. it would have to have mucho healing...

[LordErebus12]

threw together some rough spells that might rock to have as class exclusive spells, although they could make any divine caster that much better. I feel that restricting it to a new class (or at least the healing or protection domains) would be a way to make the class choice really matter in the long run. your call, my suggestion.


Blessed Shielding, Lesser
Conjuration (Force, Healing)
Level: N/A (guessing 3rd)
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 full round action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: number of living targets equal to caster level (maximum 5), no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart.
Duration: Concentration, plus an additional rounds equal to your casting ability modifier. (D)
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)

Lesser Blessed Shielding enables you to channel all your positive energy into a protective barrier around several chosen allies, surrounding them in golden motes of light that protect the targets from damage and other detrimental effects, while still providing light healing each round.

Lesser Blessed Shielding grants a +1 sacred bonus on Armor class, a +1 sacred bonus on all saving throws, and heals the target a number of hit points each round equal to 5 + the caster's caster level (maximum +5).

Blessed Shielding
Conjuration (Force, Healing)
Level: N/A (guessing 5th)
Target: number of living targets equal to caster level (maximum 10), no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart.

Blessed Shielding functions similar to Lesser Blessed Shielding, except below:

Blessed Shielding grants a +3 sacred bonus on Armor class, a +3 sacred bonus on all saving throws, and heals the target a number of hit points each round equal to 10 + the caster's caster level (maximum +15).

Blessed Shielding, Greater
Conjuration (Force, Healing)
Level: N/A (guessing 7th)
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./ level)
Target: number of living targets equal to caster level, no two of which can be more than 60 ft. apart.

Greater Blessed Shielding functions similar to Lesser Blessed Shielding, except below:

Greater Blessed Shielding grants a +5 sacred bonus on Armor class, a +5 sacred bonus on all saving throws, and heals the target a number of hit points each round equal to 15 + the caster's caster level.

Orb of the Lifestream
Conjuration (Healing)
Level: N/A (guessing 3rd)
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 10 ft. radius, centered on floating orb of white energy.
Duration: 1 round / caster level (D)
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)

Orb of the Lifestream allows the caster to conjure a floating orb of pure positive energy from the positive energy plane. This orb is about five feet wide and hovers where it was conjured and releases bursts of positive energy.

Each round, the burst of positive energy heals a number of hit points equal to 1d8 + caster level (maximum 10) to all living targets within the radius of the effect.

Undead and evil outsiders receive damage instead each round. Undead that spend one round or more within the range also begin suffering a -2 on all attack and damage rolls, as well as all saving throws and turn/rebuke checks.

Reflective Halo
Conjuration (Force)
Level: N/A (guessing 5th)
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 20 ft. radius, centered on self.
Duration: 1 round / caster level (D)
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)

Reflective Halo grants all allies within the area of effect a +2 bonus on all hit point gains from healing spells. Additionally, whenever an ally rolls a successful saving throw to prevent partial or all hit point damage, the original caster of that harmful spell suffers one fourth the rolled damage (rounded down) as the damage is magically reflected back to its source.

No matter how many allies successfully save against the spell, only the first successful save actually deals damage to the original caster of the damage spell.

[Just to Browse]

The healer is weird in D&D/PF games. The benefit of a healer is that when you're in a situation where you could die, getting healed enough to keep you going for one round means you deal one more round of damage to the enemy.

The problem is that in D&D/PF, most players are only supposed to blow 1/4 of their resources in a given fight, so losing HP doesn't "matter" (certainly there are exceptions) until the last one or two fights before you rest. In D&D, you just drop when you hit 0 HP, so the only blow that really decides what happens to you is the one that takes you from positive to not-positive.

As such, healing is a good schtick in some games, but really doesn't have a role in D&D/PF.

[LordErebus12]

=As such, healing is a good schtick in some games, but really doesn't have a role in D&D/PF.

I disagree strongly on this.

[Just to Browse]

I disagree strongly on this.

That's probably because you're thinking "Healer" as in a person who heals HP, provides helpful buffs, and removes bad conditions.

But the OP appears to be explicitly talking about healing HP damage or AC buffs. And a class that only does those two things is about as useful as a monk, especially if it's structured on a spells-per-day basis.

[Zelkon]

Also, take a page from 4e: healing as a swift action.

[Sho]

Healing by nature is utility.

I think that point should be made.

And there are plenty primary utility classes which feature healing as a quality feature or as part of a sub-skill set.

The Retooled Healer is probably by far the only real "primary healer" that's worth a salt, ignoring any other possible applications in "utility". I'm not saying the Retooled Healer has no additional utility either though.

[motionmatrix]

If you wanted to give them a familiar type creature but not really give them one (for example, because they don't need any more help to be stronger in battle) make creatures that can heal (positive energy spirits? ever growing balls of light?) and add them to the summon monster list at appropriate intervals (where healing is weak, potentially all levels in your opinion).

They only come to those who have a strong positive energy signature already, such as clerics and paladins (and oracles and maybe celestial sorcerers if you play PF). You can even specify that they only stay as long as positive energy is actively used by the summoner every X rounds, or leaves early.

They don't heal as powerfully as a cleric of equivalent level, but they can do so every round. This gives a pet-like effect to the cleric, with a spell and action tax, and requires you to heal at least occasionally, or it leaves.

Edit out as much of the negs as you want to reach the power level you want.

For Summon Monster II (where I would start this chain of creatures):

Prakasa
Size/Type: Tiny Outsider (Good, Extraplanar, Incorporeal)
Hit Dice: 1d8 (12 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: fly 30 ft. (perfect)
Armor Class: 17 (+2 size, +1 Dex, +4 Deflection), touch 17, flat-footed 16
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/-5
Attack: none
Full Attack: none
Space/Reach: 2½ ft./0 ft.
Special Attacks: none
Special Qualities: fast healing 10, Incorporeal, Light 60 ft., Immune to Planar Travel blocks (such as dimensional anchor), Positive touch
Saves: Fort +2, Ref +2, Will +4
Abilities: Str —, Dex 13, Con —, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 18
Skills: Knowledge (any one) +6, Listen +7, Search +6, Spot +7, Survival +1 (+3 following tracks)
Feats: Awareness, Dodge
Environment: Any good-aligned plane
Organization: Gang (2-4), band (6-11), or tribe (20-80)
Challenge Rating: 1
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always good
Advancement: 4-6 HD (Tiny)

A glowing ball of light (-20 to hide checks) that floats around with child-like natures, prakasas are drawn to other sources of positive energy, including each other. They usually only hear the call of summoners who are infused with positive energy already, such as positive energy clerics and paladins.

When they are not in their home planes, If they can't sense any active sources of positive energy (such as a caster using a positive energy spell, or a cleric turning undead) after a few moments (every 2 rounds), they leave, going back to their plane of origin.

Combat
Prakasas are incapable of dealing damage normally, since their touch is infused with positive energy. Just like they are drawn to positive energy, they are also drawn to the loss of positive energy, and will heal anyone nearby, unless ordered otherwise.

detect positive energy (Su): as Detect Good. This ability is always active.

Positive Touch (Su):Whenever a Prakasa touches a creature, it releases positive energy, healing 4 (cha modifier) damage. This energy continues to infuse the touched creature for an extra 1 (wis modifier) round, healing them again at the beginning of his or her turn.

Tongues (Su): All Prakasas can speak with any creature that has a language, as though using a tongues spell (caster level 14th). This ability is always active.

Spell-Like Abilities
At will—) Light, Plane shift (back to home plane only, self only); 3/day—Cure Light Wounds.

[Yitzi]

I think a primary healer class is feasible, but:
-It should heal not only damage but also status effects, including the really nasty ones (maybe even death). It should also have resistance to such effects.
-It should be able to heal at a rate comparable to the damage/status-causing of a character of its level.
-It won't be above tier 3, and that only if it has other abilities as well.