Initiative Order and Ninja's ruling

[TheDarkSaint]

I just need a quick clarification ruling before I hand this out to a player.

PHB states that a person is flat-footed before their turn in initiative order, but when they go and after, they are counted as being 'normal'.

Flat footed states that characters loose their Dex bonus and ability to make AoO if they are flat footed.

Ninja's get a Sudden Strike any time a target is denied a Dex bonus.

Nina's + High Dex + Improved Initiative= Scary?

Am I missing something or can an Improved Initiative Ninja tear through the beginning of a initiative cycle with little fear of reprisal (no AoO) and able to make Sudden Strikes against just about anyone, even with ranged attacks?

(I ask because I'm a DM and always thought Ninja's sucked...now I'm thinking of having one as an NPC that rocks and rolls, but I'd like to do it by the rules)

[Sucrose]

I just need a quick clarification ruling before I hand this out to a player.

PHB states that a person is flat-footed before their turn in initiative order, but when they go and after, they are counted as being 'normal'.

Flat footed states that characters loose their Dex bonus and ability to make AoO if they are flat footed.

Ninja's get a Sudden Strike any time a target is denied a Dex bonus.

Nina's + High Dex + Improved Initiative= Scary?

Am I missing something or can an Improved Initiative Ninja tear through the beginning of a initiative cycle with little fear of reprisal (no AoO) and able to make Sudden Strikes against just about anyone, even with ranged attacks?

(I ask because I'm a DM and always thought Ninja's sucked...now I'm thinking of having one as an NPC that rocks and rolls, but I'd like to do it by the rules)
You are correct, that a Ninja would get a Sudden Strike against any given target below them in the initiative order. However, this isn't as remarkable as you seem to feel that it is. The same is true for a normal Rogue, who could also get the same number of dice from flanking, if they were willing to risk enemy melee reprisal.

[TheDarkSaint]

Sweet. Thanks :)

When I first read through the wording for Sudden Strike, I thought to myself that it was more limiting than Sneak Attack and made the Ninja much weaker than a Rouge in terms of that damage output.

Glad to hear I was wrong. :)

[A_S]

Not sure if this was unclear, but bear in mind that late-initiative characters are only flat-footed during the first round of combat (and possibly the surprise round, if they didn't act in it). Once they've acted in a given combat, they're no longer flat-footed, whether or not they've acted yet this round.

*edit* And, you were totally right about Sudden Strike being much weaker than Sneak Attack...it only works against flat-footed targets, whereas Sneak Attack works against:
-Flat-footed targets.
-Targets who are denied their Dex bonus for any other reason.
-Flanked targets.

It's much, much easier to deliver Sneak Attack damage.

[Phelix-Mu]

I think you will find the consensus on ninjas is much as you previously imagined.

I believe that ninjas that can reliably net surprise and/or high initiative can get nice damage off, in the same manner as rogues, but minus the flanking option from Sneak Attack class feature.

The reason that ninjas suck is not simply Sudden Strike being worse than Sneak Attack, but that this sneaky type damage isn't treated well in D&D. Half the monsters out there are immune to sneak attack, and sudden strike misses an additional few that might be flankable (not sure, but hive mind and other forms of supernatural awareness make sneaking up very difficult).

Additionally, ninja class features enforce a "strike and move" type combat tactic early on (only for melee, I might add), and mundane classes revolve around damage output per round.

Someone is going to say "make a swordsage," if they haven't already.

Zen Archery can make a decent ninja build, but I think ninja would be only part of said build, and lack of PrC support also hurts.

If you do want to make a ninja, things like Ki Power feats introduced in Dragon Magazine are very useful. Zen Fortitude was nice, a player of mine really liked that.

[TheDarkSaint]

Ahhhhhhh, I see the draw back now.


ok, thanks guys!

[HMS Invincible]

As a rule of thumb, oriental stuff in d&d suck. Though wu Jen may be a rare exception, (tier 2 I think)

[Lans]

Technically the wu jen sucks too, as he's a knock off wizard.

Ninja's can get sudden strike off if it attacks people while invisible I believe.

[Phelix-Mu]

Technically the wu jen sucks too, as he's a knock off wizard.

Ninja's can get sudden strike off if it attacks people while invisible I believe.

Yes, provided the ninja is in fact unseen while invisible. Still, it's normal invisibility, and it ends when attacking, and can only be activated 1/round. Not the best mechanic ever.

It would be cool to take the ninja chassis and strip out the ki power and put in ToB maneuvers, namely Shadow Hand and maybe some Setting Sun and Tiger Claw.

[Starbuck_II]

Yes, provided the ninja is in fact unseen while invisible. Still, it's normal invisibility, and it ends when attacking, and can only be activated 1/round. Not the best mechanic ever.

It would be cool to take the ninja chassis and strip out the ki power and put in ToB maneuvers, namely Shadow Hand and maybe some Setting Sun and Tiger Claw.

No, it lasts the whole round 3.5 FAQ confirms this. It gives the
Invisible condition, not the spell. So closer to Greater Invis (1 rd).


So works at higher levels or low levels with haste.

[Phelix-Mu]

No, it lasts the whole round 3.5 FAQ confirms this. It gives the
Invisible condition, not the spell. So closer to Greater Invis (1 rd).


So works at higher levels or low levels with haste.

Ah, well I'll be jiggered. Thanks for the update. Chalk up another class to the WotC poor writing casualty list. Too bad I screwed that one guy that played ninja for most of a campaign with an inaccurate class feature. Whoops.:smalltongue: Live and learn....

[Glimbur]

The only really unique ability ninjas get is the ability to attack from the Ethereal plane. It's buried so deep in the class that it's hard to use for anything apart from Ninja X though.

[Alefiend]

The ninja will be in for a nasty surprise while moving by if any of the opponents have Combat Reflexes, which allows them to make an AoO even when flat footed.