The Cheat...

[8wGremlin]

Contemplative Mystic Thurge Sha'ir Sovereign Speaker


http://dl.dropbox.com/u/6351180/Sha%27ir.png

The Base

I've been doing a lot of work recently with the Sha'ir (Dragon Magazine Compendium, a d&d published book!)

The Sha'ir most prominant feature is that it has empty slots, that it can fill with any arcane wizard/sorcerer spell, and some divine spells from specific domains.

This makes it the de-facto divine and arcane class, RAW.

The Cheat

Mystic Thurge adds +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class per Mystic Thurge level.

Applying this to the Sha'ir allows us to advance twice per level, and can be entered by Versatile spellcaster by 4th level.


@4th level we have spells of a 5th level Sha'ir
@5th level we have spells of a 7th level Sha'ir
@6th level we have spells of a 9th level Sha'ir
@7th level we have spells of a 11th level Sha'ir
@8th level we have spells of a 13th level Sha'ir
@9th level we have spells of a 15th level Sha'ir
@10th level we have spells of a 17th level Sha'ir
@11th level we have spells of a 19th level Sha'ir
@12th level we have spells of a 21th level Sha'ir WARNING DOES NOT COMPUTE

By Level 11 we have broken into 9th level spells, so what to do now?

I thought to throttle back and stop Mystic Thurge and see if I could add in more spells to the mix and this is what I came up with.

The Cheat Framework


Need to keep Diplomacy Maxed, to get spells
Need Knowledge religion as a class skill by 4th level
Need a way to keep the spell in memory, Sha'ir has a funny memory mechanic
Domain spells would be added to the divine spells known section
Contemplative and Sovereign speaker grant us domain powers


{table=head]Level|Class|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Skills|Feats| Features

1 | Sha'ir 1 | +0 | +0 | +0 | +2 | Diplomacy 4, Knowledge (arcana) 4 ranks , Knowledge (religion) 2 ranks | Versatile Spellcaster | Summon gen familiar

2 | Sha'ir 2 | +1 | +0 | +0 | +3 | x | - |

3 | Sha'ir 3 | +1 | +1 | +1 | +3 | Diplomacy 6, Knowledge (arcana) 6 ranks , Knowledge (religion) 6* ranks | Knowledge Devotion (Religion as class skill) | -

4 | Mystic Theurge 1st | +0 | +0 | +0 | +2 | | | +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class

5 | Mystic Theurge 2nd | +1 | +0 | +0 | +3 | | | +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class

6 | Mystic Theurge 3rd | +1 | +1 | +1 | +3 | | | +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class

7 | Mystic Theurge 4th | +2 | +1 | +1 | +4 | | | +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class

8 | Mystic Theurge 5th | +2 | +1 | +1 | +4 | | | +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class

9 | Mystic Theurge 6th | +3 | +2 | +2 | +5 | | Worldly Focus | +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class

10 | Mystic Theurge 7th | +3 | +2 | +2 | +5 | Knowledge (religion) 13 | | +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class

11 | Contemplative 1st | +0 | +0 | +0 | +2 | | | Bonus domain, divine health +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class

12 | Sovereign Speaker 1st | +0 | +0 | +0 | +2 | | | Bonus domain —

13 | Sovereign Speaker 2nd | +1 | +0 | +0 | +3 | | | Bonus domain +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class

14 | Sovereign Speaker 3rd | +2 | +1 | +1 | +3 | | | Bonus domain, extra domain slot +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class

15 | Sovereign Speaker 4th | +3 | +1 | +1 | +4 | | | Bonus domain +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class

16 | Sovereign Speaker 5th | +3 | +1 | +1 | +4 | | | Bonus domain +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class

17 | Sovereign Speaker 6th | +4 | +2 | +2 | +5 | | | Bonus domain, extra domain slot —

18 | Sovereign Speaker 7th | +5 | +2 | +2 | +5 | | | Bonus domain +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class

19 | Sovereign Speaker 8th | +6 | +2 | +2 | +6 | | | Bonus domain +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class

20 | Sovereign Speaker 9th | +6 | +3 | +3 | +6 | | | Bonus domain, extra domain slot +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class
[/table]

Getting Spells

Sha'ir have to send their Gen off to bargin for your spells, and this requires a diplomacy check.

Sha'ir Diplomacy checks (DC needed)
{table=head]Spell Level|Arcane/Divine|Arcane Known|Divine (unknown)

0 | 20 | 18 | 26

1 | 22 | 20 | 28

2 | 24 | 22 | 30

3 | 26 | 24 | 32

4 | 28 | 26 | 34

5 | 30 | 28 | 36

6 | 32 | 30 | 38

7 | 34 | 32 | 40

8 | 36 | 34 | 42

9 | 38 | 36 | 44
[/table]

NB -1 per Sha'ir level +1 per increase in level caused by the use of a metamagic feat. +2 per attempt after a failed check the gen makes to retrieve the same spell in the same day.

Variants
Enter Rainbow servant at 11th level, and by 20th level you'll have added every Cleric spell!

Thanks Santra

[Gem_Knight]

You might look at changing to precocious Apprentice as your lvl 1 spell, because the sha'ir doesn't get 2nd level spells till level 4, and you can't get into mystic thurge until you get 2nd level spells...

but then you get into the questionable grounds of do you need /multiple/ 2nd level spells, more to the point- at least one arcane and one divine...

not to mention the huge drawback of waiting long periods of time for your spells and not being able to hold them all day (if I recall correctly, could be wrong on that one)

that said it's at least as amusing as a Wizard/Ultimate Magus to double progress (using a 3rd party feat to be able to spontaneous cast a select number of spells as a wizard)

[GnomeGninjas]

@^: Sha'ir have wizard spells per day so they do get 2nd level spells at 3rd (they would have to be divine or identified spells though because they have sorcerer spells known).

You can only keep each spell for 3 hours(Sha'ir level) before casting it. This could be a problem.

[8wGremlin]

You might look at changing to precocious Apprentice as your lvl 1 spell, because the sha'ir doesn't get 2nd level spells till level 4, and you can't get into mystic thurge until you get 2nd level spells...


Actually if you look at the progression of the Sha'ir you'll see that they often get a SLOT before they get the spell on their Known list.

Thus the Versatile caster gives them the ability to send their GEN off to get the spell, so they can cast it, subject to the Increased DC (its not known, and a higher level!)

I did look at using the ultimate mage, but as you say that works better with the wizard 5.


@^: Sha'ir have wizard spells per day so they do get 2nd level spells at 3rd (they would have to be divine or identified spells though because they have sorcerer spells known).

You can only keep each spell for 3 hours(Sha'ir level) before casting it. This could be a problem.

Your right about the spells being kept in mind for 3 hours, then dissipating. (spell has not been cast so the slot is still free)

But you could get Arcane Preparation feat to get round that problem by locking the spell in to place

As for the spell progression, see my post above. Sha'irs get slots before they get known spells, its a very unusual class not like any other...

[Flickerdart]

How does this stack up against Spont Div Wizard/Ultimate Magus?

[Santra]

While the domains are extremely useful you might look at Rainbow Servant instead to add all cleric class spells to your spell list as well as getting the Good, Air, and Law domains.

[8wGremlin]

How does this stack up against Spont Div Wizard/Ultimate Magus?

probably the same, each has its own pros and cons.

Sha'ir has CHA as primary stat, and can be a decent diplomancer and party face

But this kicks off earlier that Spont Div Wizard/Ultimate Magus, which starts at 6th, this starts at 4th . (theoretically both could be used for E6)



While the domains are extremely useful you might look at Rainbow Servant instead to add all cleric class spells to your spell list as well as getting the Good, Air, and Law domains.

Whilst a good combination, the main point of the build above is to get ACCELERATED casting... something that Rainbow Servant doesn't do (regardless of text vs table debate)

[Santra]

probably the same, each has its own pros and cons.

Sha'ir has CHA as primary stat, and can be a decent diplomancer and party face

But this kicks off earlier that Spont Div Wizard/Ultimate Magus, which starts at 6th, this starts at 4th . (theoretically both could be used for E6)




Whilst a good combination, the main point of the build above is to get ACCELERATED casting... something that Rainbow Servant doesn't do (regardless of text vs table debate)

Ahh I forgot that not everyone uses the "text trumps table" ruling. Never mind carry on.

[8wGremlin]

Ahh I forgot that not everyone uses the "text trumps table" ruling. Never mind carry on.

Even with it, you're only adding one level per level, where as this adds 2 levels, per level


As a 11 level optimized war snake you have spell casting as an 11 level caster, casting 6th level spells

Whereas with this at 11th level I have spellcasting as a 18th level caster, casting 9th level spells

[Santra]

Even with it, you're only adding one level per level, where as this adds 2 levels, per level


As a 11 level optimized war snake you have spell casting as an 11 level caster, casting 6th level spells

Whereas with this at 11th level I have spellcasting as a 18th level caster, casting 9th level spells

What? I was saying replace contemplative and Sovereign Speaker with Rainbow Servant. That would still have you at 18th level casting at 11 and at 20 you get all cleric spells.

[gomipile]

I thought this thread would be about the character from Homestar Runner.

[Alefiend]

I thought this thread would be about the character from Homestar Runner.

Same here; I was hoping this was written in Strong Bad's voice.

[Story]

I still don't think double progression works by RAW.


the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in any one arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class and any one divine spellcasting class he belonged to previously.

You gain a level in an arcane class and a level in a divine class. Gaining a single level in a class that is both counts. Nothing in RAW suggests that you can gain two levels at once in a single class. Admittedly, it's open to interpretation, but if you're going to use TO, at least try to have a firm rules backing for it.

[8wGremlin]

I still don't think double progression works by RAW.



You gain a level in an arcane class and a level in a divine class. Gaining a single level in a class that is both counts. Nothing in RAW suggests that you can gain two levels at once in a single class. Admittedly, it's open to interpretation, but if you're going to use TO, at least try to have a firm rules backing for it.

I'm probably not going to convince you but my logic is this

First spellcasting benefit

Add 1 Spellcasting level to an arcane class
is Sha'ir an arcane class - Yes
Then add the Arcane Spellcaster level


Second spellcasting benefit

Add 1 Spellcasting level to a divine class
is Sha'ir an divine class - Yes
Then add the Divine Spellcaster level

[Jigokuro]

First spellcasting benefit

Add 1 Spellcasting level to an arcane class
is Sha'ir an arcane class - Yes
Then add the Arcane Spellcaster level


Second spellcasting benefit

Add 1 Spellcasting level to a divine class
is Sha'ir an divine class - Yes
Then add the Divine Spellcaster level

Seems legit. There is nothing saying the classes can't be the same one and the phrases are separate enough.

[8wGremlin]

What? I was saying replace contemplative and Sovereign Speaker with Rainbow Servant. That would still have you at 18th level casting at 11 and at 20 you get all cleric spells.

Ah it all becomes clear now!

Yes that's a great suggestion, might do that as a variant

It does give all cleric spells to the sha'ir's list, progresses spellcasting (which is wasted, just like the Sovereign speakers)

We'd have to enter it at 11th to make sure we get all the class goodies by 20th

Thanks Santra

[SowZ]

I feel as though this isn't RAW, but can't actually come up with a good argument for it. So, for now, I'll tentatively agree that it works.

[only1doug]

I feel as though this isn't RAW, but can't actually come up with a good argument for it. So, for now, I'll tentatively agree that it works.

It's definately RAW and almost certainly not RAI... Just like much of RAW.

[SowZ]

It's definately RAW and almost certainly not RAI... Just like much of RAW.

Yeah. It feels wrong, but it seems to check out, regardless. You could really break an E6 setting with this.

[only1doug]

Yeah. It feels wrong, but it seems to check out, regardless. You could really break an E6 setting with this.

If the GM allows it to fly yes, this kind of character isn't designed for an average powered game and the GM of such a game would be well within his rights to turn around and tell the OP "nope, you can't have that character".

OP probably isn't trying to sneak this into an average game though, it's likely either for a high Optimisation level game or just a Theoretical Optimisation build.

[mattie_p]

I don't think this is going to work.
Armor of any type interferes with a sha'ir's arcane gestures, which can cause his spells with somatic components to fail.

Even though the sha'ir has access to certain domain spells, he gains no other benefit of the cleric class, including the granted powers of those domains.

Please show us where Sha'irs count as divine casters, thank you.

PS: How do you type with boxing gloves on?

[GnomeGninjas]

I don't think this is going to work.

Please show us where Sha'irs count as divine casters, thank you.

PS: How do you type with boxing gloves on?

When listing modifiers to the Sha'ir's diplomacy "divine spell unknown" is one of them.

[mattie_p]

But when casting the spell, it still suffers from Arcane Spell Failure. Just because it was originally a divine spell doesn't mean the sha'ir casts it as divine, it gets converted to arcane for casting, much as domain spells, when prepared by a wizard or sorcerer with access to a domain cast divine domain spells as arcane (Complete Divine, p20).

[GnomeGninjas]

But when casting the spell, it still suffers from Arcane Spell Failure. Just because it was originally a divine spell doesn't mean the sha'ir casts it as divine, it gets converted to arcane for casting, much as domain spells, when prepared by a wizard or sorcerer with access to a domain cast divine domain spells as arcane (Complete Divine, p20).

You might be onto something.

These are all the quotes I found that mention a Sha'ir casting divine spells:
"A sha'ir is capable of extremely versatile spelling casting because he can use arcane spells as well a a limited selection of divine spells"

"• Divine Spell: Retrieving a divine spell, known or not"

"• -6 if the spell is an unknown divine spell."

[mattie_p]

Some other quotes:

* A sha'ir is a skilled spellcaster who, with the help of his elemental familiar, can gain access to almost any arcane spell and many divine ones. (Characteristics from 1st page, aka potentially "fluff")

* Other classes: Sha'irs sometimes see wizards and sorcerers as rivals. They feel their magic is superior to other arcane casters because of their flexibility. (Also in the "fluff" section though.)

[Story]

It's definately RAW and almost certainly not RAI... Just like much of RAW.

It's arguably RAW. As I pointed out, there's more than one way to interpret the wording. Personally, I don't think it works even by RAW.

[Psyren]

Sha'ir do cast divine spells; The broken part is letting MT (or any other theurge) dual-progress them at each level.

They go great with finishing other theurges though, like an Eldritch Theurge/Eldritch Disciple combo or a Cerebremancer/Psychic Theurge combo.

[mattie_p]

Sha'ir do cast divine spells; The broken part is letting MT (or any other theurge) dual-progress them at each level.

So do domain wizards (or arcane disciples), but they cast them as arcane spells. (Rainbow servants are a special case, in which case pure divine spells don't count arcane - they count as divine - but the text explicitly states this). My evidence is the arcane spell failure they suffer for all spells. What is the evidence that they cast domain spells as divine spells?

In other words, just because the spell is originally divine in nature, via domain, where does it say that the spell remains divine in nature, rather than use the Complete Divine rule that the spells count as arcane?

[8wGremlin]

But when casting the spell, it still suffers from Arcane Spell Failure. Just because it was originally a divine spell doesn't mean the sha'ir casts it as divine, it gets converted to arcane for casting, much as domain spells, when prepared by a wizard or sorcerer with access to a domain cast divine domain spells as arcane (Complete Divine, p20).

I'm sorry, but why do you think that the divine spell gets arcane spell failure?
I'd agree that this is the case for their arcane spells.

The section you are paraphrasing from complete divine, is when an arcane caster gains access to domain spells, and these are added to their spell list.

However the Sha'ir specifically states that it fetches divine spells, that thy are harder to get, and take longer, and are from a very limited set of spells.
It doesn't state that they change in to arcane spells, like the rainbow servant does for some of its spells

Sorry if I'm not going to convince you, but as far as we can tell its RAW
Yes this is height optimastion, and probably TO territory

[Alienist]

Actually if you look at the progression of the Sha'ir you'll see that they often get a SLOT before they get the spell on their Known list.

Thus the Versatile caster gives them the ability to send their GEN off to get the spell, so they can cast it, subject to the Increased DC (its not known, and a higher level!)


There are only two problems with that:
One, Versatile Spellcaster only lets you cast spells you already know
Two, Versatile Spellcaster only lets you cast spells you already know

Now I know that technically, that's the same problem, but it's such a big one it's worth mentioning twice.



"Benefit
You can use two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you know that is one level higher. For example, a sorcerer with this feat can expend two 2nd-level spell slots to cast any 3rd-level spell he knows."


For goodness sake, it says it twice.

Now, don't despair, Versatile Spellcaster does actually do something for you, it lets you cast spells (that you know) directly, thereby bypassing all that Gen/diplomacy guff.

As a sideline - how much does it suck that you have to wait for the spells you know?

-------

Some more minor quibbles:
The Sha'ir class says that it is an arcane caster,



"They feel their magic is superior to other arcane casters"


But it never says it's a divine caster. You're inferring that it is a divine caster, because it can cast divine spells*, but inferring something is quite a different beast than it actually being written.

*In normal English this would be a perfectly safe assumption, however there is a bunch of game-mechanics baggage (as you yourself so ably demonstrate) which goes along with this term, such that merely casting the odd divine spell here or there doesn't qualify.**

**Ironically, it is enough to get you in to Mystic Theurge, because MT doesn't specifically require you to be a divine caster, it merely requires you to be able to cast 2nd level divine spells, which you can do at level 3.

***These sorts of semantic problems with the rules are the sorts of reasons why the designers deserve public flagellation.

****I'm assuming here that "divine caster" is a keyword, it's certainly used like one all over the place, but I could be wrong, in which case mea culpa.

It says that the spells you get from the gen sit in memory as though they were prepared spells (or until the timer is up). Hence you can't retrieve fireball and then cast it three times, you have to retrieve it each time you want to cast it.
... Hence, it kind of says that the class cast prepared spells*. It never says the class is a spontaneous caster.
... Hence you don't qualify for the Versatile Spellcaster anyway. Oops.

*But again we discover that the class is badly written. Is it beast or is it fowl? Is it neither?

======

Okay, now for the good. If you did take even a single level of Cleric or Druid, you'd qualify for Versatile Spellcaster. It would also give you a RAW divine side to bump up.

I could see an argument for even a single level in a spontaneous casting class letting you have Versatile Spellcaster, then I could see an argument for three levels of Sha'ir letting you in to Mystic Theurge, based on a strict interpretation of the wording, you don't need anything else other than three levels of Sha'ir to get in.

However, just because you are an arcane caster who can cast divine spells, doesn't make you a divine caster.

Still, Cleric 1, Sha'ir 3, Mystic Theurge 10 is not a bad deal.

(Because of the skill requirement) you might have to do it like this:

Sha'ir 1
Sha'ir 2
Cleric 1 - Versatile Spellcaster
Sha'ir 3
Mystic Theurge 1
(etc)

At level 14 you'd have 13th level arcane casting, and 11th level divine casting (which can be enhanced on the Sha'ir side up to 7th level spells from those few domains they have access to)

And, in a neat twist, you can sacrifice two fifth level Sha'ir slots to cast any Sixth level Cleric spell. Nifty!

[Alienist]

Also found this:

"Sha'ir (Shr): A flexible arcane spellcaster who relies on
a spirit ally to fetch his spells from across the planes."

"Between commerce, diplomacy, or even war, the sha'ir's arcane traditions could slowly filter across the world."

"They feel their magic is superior to other arcane casters because of their flexibility."

"Role: The sha'ir provides arcane casting ability to the party."

------

From Complete Divine p20:

"Unless the prestige class specifies otherwise, such spells are considered arcane spells when cast by arcane spellcasters."

Ergo, he can send off the gen for a spell on the divine lists, but when he brings it back, it's an arcane version of that spell.

Hmm... that invalidates my theory that Sha'ir 3 by itself is enough to qualify for Mystic Theurge. Shame, it was a nice idea.

(And no, Versatile Spellcaster still doesn't allow early entry, even if you take a level of cleric)

[Psyren]

What is the evidence that they cast domain spells as divine spells?

The text explicitly says they cast divine spells:

"A sha'ir is a skilled spellcaster who, with the help of his elemental familiar, can gain access to almost any arcane spell and many divine ones."

"A sha'ir is capable of extraordinarily versatile spellcasting because he can use arcane spells as well as a limited selection of divine spells."

Domain Wizards and Arcane Disciples meanwhile explicitly state that the spells they use are arcane even if they come from a divine source. Without a similar converting clause in the Sha'ir's entry, this does not apply to them.



Some more minor quibbles:
The Sha'ir class says that it is an arcane caster,



But it never says it's a divine caster. You're inferring that it is a divine caster, because it can cast divine spells*,

1) There is no other definition for "divine caster." :smallconfused:
2) The Sha'ir IS an arcane caster. Nobody is disputing that. It just happens to be a divine caster as well. So the line about them feeling superior to other arcane casters doesn't disprove anything.

EDIT: Also, the line from Complete Divine is irrelevant as Sha'ir is a base class, not a PrC. (It is doubly irrelevant since Sha'ir spells are specified as both arcane and divine as above.)

[Seer_of_Heart]

From Complete Divine p20:

"Unless the prestige class specifies otherwise, such spells are considered arcane spells when cast by arcane spellcasters."

Ergo, he can send off the gen for a spell on the divine lists, but when he brings it back, it's an arcane version of that spell.


Emphasis mine

Sha'ir is not a prestige class it is a base class, and while I cannot check it for myself I believe it will probably say something about how it applies to the prestige classes in the book. Which means it doesn't even apply to other prestige classes.

[mattie_p]

I'm sorry, but why do you think that the divine spell gets arcane spell failure?


The text explicitly says they cast divine spells:

"A sha'ir is a skilled spellcaster who, with the help of his elemental familiar, can gain access to almost any arcane spell and many divine ones."

"A sha'ir is capable of extraordinarily versatile spellcasting because he can use arcane spells as well as a limited selection of divine spells."

Domain Wizards and Arcane Disciples meanwhile explicitly state that the spells they use are arcane even if they come from a divine source. Without a similar converting clause in the Sha'ir's entry, this does not apply to them.


Emphasis mine

Sha'ir is not a prestige class it is a base class, and while I cannot check it for myself I believe it will probably say something about how it applies to the prestige classes in the book. Which means it doesn't even apply to other prestige classes.

Please explain, any or all of the above, or others who wish to contribute, the statements in light of the following rules text:


Armor of any type interferes with a sha'ir's arcane gestures, which can cause his spells with somatic components to fail.

[Psyren]

Please explain, any or all of the above, or others who wish to contribute, the statements in light of the following rules text:

A Sha'ir's arcane spells have arcane gestures and therefore suffer from arcane spell failure.

Again, nobody is saying they don't cast arcane spells - they do. We're just saying they also cast divine spells.

[mattie_p]

A Sha'ir's arcane spells have arcane gestures and therefore suffer from arcane spell failure.

Again, nobody is saying they don't cast arcane spells - they do. We're just saying they also cast divine spells.

But the quote on armor does not specify only arcane spells, just "his spells with somatic components." So any spell with somatic components, per RAW, suffers ASF, and must be arcane.

[Psyren]

But the quote on armor does not specify only arcane spells, just "his spells with somatic components." So any spell with somatic components, per RAW, suffers ASF, and must be arcane.

It specifies arcane gestures per RAW. Divine ones are not mentioned. (Divine gestures are a thing - their spells have somatic components too.)

[mattie_p]

It specifies arcane gestures per RAW. Divine ones are not mentioned. (Divine gestures are a thing - their spells have somatic components too.)

No, it specifies spells with somatic gestures.

[Psyren]

No, it specifies spells with somatic gestures.

You quoted the passage yourself: "Armor of any type interferes with a sha'ir's arcane gestures" Not "somatic gestures" (which is redundant in any event, as all gestures are somatic by definition.)

And none of this addresses the fact that they are explicitly stated as being able to use arcane and divine spells. All you're proving is that their arcane spells are subject to ASF, which nobody is saying otherwise.

[mattie_p]

You quoted the passage yourself: "Armor of any type interferes with a sha'ir's arcane gestures" Not "somatic gestures" (which is redundant in any event, as all gestures are somatic by definition.)

And none of this addresses the fact that they are explicitly stated as being able to use arcane and divine spells. All you're proving is that their arcane spells are subject to ASF, which nobody is saying otherwise.

Yes, I did. So let's read the whole thing again.


Armor of any type interferes with a sha'ir's arcane gestures, which can cause his spells with somatic components to fail.

I'm googling stuff on the word "which" to determine if it is a restrictive or non-restrictive clause (http://www.kentlaw.edu/academics/lrw/grinker/LwtaClauses__Restrictive_and_Nonrest.htm). Both uses are permitted, apparently, although one restrictive is recommended. This is what rules arguments ultimately descend into.


The question is are all sha'ir gestures arcane, which cause ASF, or are only arcane gestures that cause ASF (as is normal for multiclass arcane/divine casters).

[Jigokuro]

Assuming this does work (I believe RAW allows it, barely) is there anyway to TO it up even more with Master Spellthief shenanigans?:smallbiggrin:

[8wGremlin]

Assuming this does work (I believe RAW allows it, barely) is there anyway to TO it up even more with Master Spellthief shenanigans?:smallbiggrin:

Good suggestion, the basic chassis is Sha'ir > MT anything after 11th level is just gravy...

See what we can do...

[Coidzor]

Either arcane gestures refers to arcane in the specific sense of arcane magic versus divine magic in which case it's specifying only the arcane spells of the Sha'ir and would need something further to really show that all the spells are arcane spells or arcane gestures refers to the general sense of being esoteric in which case it can be read several different ways.