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Grindle
2013-02-17, 11:19 PM
What level would Sherlock Holmes be? This isn't just an abstract question; I'd like to know to aid development of my Detective (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=271469) base class. If anyone has anything to say about other famous fictional detectives, I'd be happy to hear that too.

FreakyCheeseMan
2013-02-17, 11:22 PM
What level would Sherlock Holmes be? This isn't just an abstract question; I'd like to know to aid development of my Detective (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=271469) base class. If anyone has anything to say about other famous fictional detectives, I'd be happy to hear that too.

I would start with his spot/search check.

MidgetMarine
2013-02-17, 11:30 PM
I would start with his spot/search check.

Not to mention his Gather Information and probably Survival (for the purpose of tracking, perhaps.)

Either way, he'd have a considerable Wisdom score.

Ellrin
2013-02-17, 11:38 PM
His listen, search, and especially spot checks are absolutely off the charts, so he'd have to be pretty high.

I'd recommend giving members of the class a bonus to spot and search equal to half their class level.

And maybe spread the abilities around a bit more; I've only done a quick scan through the different class features so far, but there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of incentive to stay in the class beyond level 8.

Phelix-Mu
2013-02-17, 11:38 PM
He could probably be replicated with an Expert, and since he's human, he doesn't need all that many levels.

He needs to have a high Int, Wis, and probably Dex, and his Cha could be average.

Most all of his abilities are skills-based, though he does use a kind of logical deduction that is hard to base off any one skill. It's clearly observation-based, so his perception skills must be high.

He's shown to have good Disguise skills, good acting skills, moderate to good barehand fighting skills, and a smattering of good rogue skills (climbing, breaking and entering, and so forth).

He was in no way invincible, however, and is shown to be beaten quite badly in several of his adventures. Not to mention he has other flaws, including a problem with addictive substances, usually resorted to because his brain finds normal life to be quite hard to tolerate.

Now, if you are dealing with generating a comparison, I'd rate Holmes' observation skills as highly as any detective out there. His interpersonal skills are kind of weak, compare with Miss Marple or Patrick Jane from the Mentalist, that use their affable nature to good effect. His use of deductive logic to solve problems is likewise, top notch, on par with Hercule Poirot or Patrick Jane (possibly superior to Jane, who relies more on personal interaction to judge circumstances). Adrian Monk from Monk and Holmes are quite similar.

Attention to detail is really Holmes' greatest asset. One of his abilities, and a valuable one for any detective, is to make Search checks in a fraction of the time it normally takes. Holmes can practically do it as a free action, and is repeatedly shown to have the ins and outs of a crime scene in little more than a single round.

I'd suggest allowing all of the perception skills for a detective class to key off of either Int or Wis, whichever is higher. Give them some kind of passive Search within a certain range, not unlike elves. Scaling bonuses to perception and certain interaction skills are key. Possibly allow some kind of customization, since each detective uses different methods to gather clues and put them together.

Flickerdart
2013-02-17, 11:44 PM
Holmes was a good fighter, with mastery of several martial arts and enough strength to bend a metal poker without visible effort. The Expert class doesn't really do him justice. I'd put him down as a Factotum of level 3 or so, using his 1/day spell-like on Identify or something.

Darius Kane
2013-02-17, 11:44 PM
Expert 4 / Fighter 2.

silverwolfer
2013-02-17, 11:48 PM
hm... I would give him some sort of artifact or divine template, that gives large bonus to wisdom and charisma, with bonsues to spot and diplomacy.


Once you take this magical factor off the table and bring him down into the d&d power scale, I would say a factotum 7, I think is the right mix of fighting, trap fiddling, acting skills to fake certain roles while under cover.

limejuicepowder
2013-02-17, 11:50 PM
Depends on the Sherlock Holmes.

Classic one would probably be expert 5 with 18 int and wisdom. Among his 10 class skills would be knowledge (history, local, religion), along with some other knowledge skills that aren't actually in DnD, like advanced science. Others would be spot, listen, bluff, and gather info. His 3 feats would probably be skill focus (gather info, spot, local). Some skill trick wouldn't go amiss either, like Listen to This and Social Recovery.

The RDJ one would probably be factotum 4 expert 1 with the unarmed strike feat, but pretty much the same besides that.

Edit: I went with factotum 4 expert 1 because at level 5 they gain opportunistic piety, allowing magical self-healing several times per day, along with turning undead. This just doesn't fit at all.

Fyermind
2013-02-17, 11:52 PM
Between level 2 and level 5 I'd say. Factotum is a good class for him.

Grindle
2013-02-17, 11:52 PM
And maybe spread the abilities around a bit more; I've only done a quick scan through the different class features so far, but there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of incentive to stay in the class beyond level 8.

The class is a WIP; I was going to ask this before adding in abilities at higher levels (to help decide where to add them/what to add).

Thanks for all the responses, everyone.

Gildedragon
2013-02-18, 06:15 AM
Depends on the Sherlock Holmes.

Classic one would probably be expert 5 with 18 int and wisdom. Among his 10 class skills would be knowledge (history, local, religion), along with some other knowledge skills that aren't actually in DnD, like advanced science. Others would be spot, listen, bluff, and gather info. His 3 feats would probably be skill focus (gather info, spot, local). Some skill trick wouldn't go amiss either, like Listen to This and Social Recovery.

The RDJ one would probably be factotum 4 expert 1 with the unarmed strike feat, but pretty much the same besides that.

Edit: I went with factotum 4 expert 1 because at level 5 they gain opportunistic piety, allowing magical self-healing several times per day, along with turning undead. This just doesn't fit at all.

Sciences would be Craft (Alchemy) in which he has max ranks, and Kn (Nature).
If I recall correctly his Kn (History) is quite poor, with him being more interested in modern noble houses than in old happenings.

limejuicepowder
2013-02-18, 07:08 AM
Sciences would be Craft (Alchemy) in which he has max ranks, and Kn (Nature).
If I recall correctly his Kn (History) is quite poor, with him being more interested in modern noble houses than in old happenings.

Ah ok. I admit I've never read the classic Sherlock Holmes, so there yah go. I don't think I would sum up "science," even if it's science from the late 1800's, with just "alchemy." They knew a lot more than that.

zimmerwald1915
2013-02-18, 07:19 AM
Ah ok. I admit I've never read the classic Sherlock Holmes, so there yah go. I don't think I would sum up "science," even if it's science from the late 1800's, with just "alchemy." They knew a lot more than that.
That's what Knowledge (nature) is there for. Though really, Holmes was a chemist more than he was a physicist or a mathematician. Higher maths were more Moriarty's bailiwick.

hymer
2013-02-18, 07:24 AM
Don't forget Handle Animal, Sense Motive, Disguise and Bluff.
HA to deal with dogs and horses. He goes undercover as a horsetending professional thingie, and he can use a track dog.
SM because he can practically read Dr. Watson's mind from observing him.
And Disguise and Bluff because, well, he's really good at those too.

Metahuman1
2013-02-18, 10:55 AM
I personally think Holmes is a Factotum with Improved Unarmed Strike, Possibly Superior Unarmed Strike and Improved Grapple, Exotic weapons Proficiency (Revolver.), and MAYBE a one level dip into Warblade. He's got Crazy High Int, and a lot of Fount of Inspiration Feats to keep using it.

I also think he's an E6 character. MAYBE and E8 character. And that he uses His Arcane Daliadant on spells that are not at all flashy but still helpful, and that he has travel devotion and uses Turn undead for an extra use for it per day.

Gavinfoxx
2013-02-18, 11:04 AM
Factotum 4 / Savant 1?

Savant > Expert...

I dont think Revolver is Exotic in his setting!

Hand_of_Vecna
2013-02-18, 11:23 AM
Very Epic E6 seems about right.

I've been actually been reading through the Sir Author Conan Doyle Holmes stories recently.

In The Sign of Four a prizefighter acknowledges that Holmes had been a match for him and that he could have been a champion if he'd dedicated himself to the ring. This is of course very dependent on how "a prizefighter" is statted in your game. This is both a measure and a limit since Holmes lost the fight so your holmes needs to give a good fight to and probably lose to "a prizefighter".

He needs some kind of ability to get information that would normally come from a search check from spot checks. He observes a lot of things very quickly.

Took a bit of digging to find a unabridged copy paste able version of Watson's assessment of Holmes from early in their friendship.


I pondered over our short conversation, however, and endeavoured to draw my deductions from it. He said that he would acquire no knowledge which did not bear upon his object. Therefore all the knowledge which he possessed was such as would be useful to him. I enumerated in my own mind all the various points upon which he had shown me that he was exceptionally well-informed. I even took a pencil and jotted them down. I could not help smiling at the document when I had completed it. It ran in this way --
SHERLOCK HOLMES -- his limits.
1. Knowledge of Literature. - Nil.
2. " Philosophy.
- Nil.
3. " Astronomy.
- Nil.
4. " Politics. - Feeble.
5. " Botany. - Variable. Well up in belladonna, opium, and poisons generally. Knows nothing of practical gardening.
6. " Geology. - Practical, but limited. Tells at a glance different soils from each other. After walks has shown me splashes upon his trousers, and told me by their colour and consistence in what part of London he had received them.
7. " Chemistry. - Profound.
8. " Anatomy. - Accurate, but unsystematic.
9. " Sensational Literature. - Immense. He appears to know every detail of every horror perpetrated in the century.
10. Plays the violin well.
11. Is an expert singlestick player, boxer, and swordsman.
12. Has a good practical knowledge of British law.
When I had got so far in my list I threw it into the fire in despair.

This leads to some problems in creating D&D stats. No knowledge of politics might make you think "Knowledge: Nobility 0" but he identifies foreign royalty traveling incognito by name. Maybe no Diplomacy? He is socially awkward when he isn't using bluff to play a character. Philosophy: none says no knowledge religion, however he has shown knowledge of religious topics. Maybe no Religion, but he's made higher DC nobility or history checks to get the same information.

Gildedragon
2013-02-18, 05:09 PM
1 rank in Kn Nobility and all the sporadic skills of his (geography & the like) + levels in factotum mean that he can hit high DC's sporadically but lower ones are too frequent for him to make.
Also a focus on Kn local (which he has driven as high as possible) could allow for identification of nobles.

hamishspence
2013-02-18, 05:17 PM
Obscure Knowledge feat from D20 Past might fit- allows you to know "relevant information about people, items or places"

There's also a Find Clues feat in that- if you pass within 5 ft of a clue, you get a Search check as if you were actually looking.

Urpriest
2013-02-18, 05:28 PM
In terms of building the class...

I'd say the following: thematically speaking, a few abilities that evoke Holmes should be near the capstone, 17+ for a 20 level class. This is not specifically because Holmes is 17+ level, but rather because Holmes is likely the most powerful detective in fiction, and the capstone should make players feel like the most powerful fictional analogues of their character concept. That said, the abilities involved should be scaled up from Holmes's specific accomplishments (probably to a few steps beyond what a comparable spellcaster can do, seeing as a Detective should be better at detecting than someone who is not a Detective).

Greenish
2013-02-18, 05:28 PM
ECS has the feat Investigate, which allows you to use Search to do stuff you should be able to do with Search anyway.

hamishspence
2013-02-18, 05:36 PM
Investigate is a separate skill from Search in D20 modern- Search allows you to find the clues- but Investigate allows you to get information out of them.

Acanous
2013-02-18, 05:39 PM
I'd put Holmes as a lv 3 Factotum/2 Rogue. He's evaded some pretty nasty explosions, and if anyone could use Roguespace, it'd be Holmes.

I don't think you need any more than 5 levels for him, and Fac3/rog2 seems right to me.

His feats would be Font of Inspiration, Font of Inspiration, Font of Inspiration.
:p

hamishspence
2013-02-18, 05:41 PM
Giving him Prodigy (intelligence) from DMG2 gives him +2 to Int, and an extra +4 bonus on all Int-related checks, including skill checks. It also gives an LA of +2, but if you want a 5HD Holmes, it may be the way to go.

CarpeGuitarrem
2013-02-18, 05:45 PM
His listen, search, and especially spot checks are absolutely off the charts, so he'd have to be pretty high.
Well, Holmes canonically did have a drug habit...

Okay, that's my bad pun for the week.

Hand_of_Vecna
2013-02-20, 02:44 AM
Obscure Knowledge feat from D20 Past might fit- allows you to know "relevant information about people, items or places"

That could be very appropriate if we use Holmes definition of relevant. There's a passage where Watson finds out that Holmes didn't know the Earth revolved around the Sun and vowed to attempt to forget it as he believed that brain space was limited and didn't think the knowledge was releveant.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2013-02-20, 02:56 AM
Assuming the average human is a Commoner 1, and 4 ranks represents a competent professional in the field.


5. " Botany. - Variable. Well up in belladonna, opium, and poisons generally. Knows nothing of practical gardening.

Knowledge (Nature) 3-4 ranks: Holmes has specialties, but is no expert. Probably knows less than the professional botanist, although not by much.


6. " Geology. - Practical, but limited. Tells at a glance different soils from each other. After walks has shown me splashes upon his trousers, and told me by their colour and consistence in what part of London he had received them.

Again, probably Knowledge (Geography) with 4 ranks. About as much knowledge as the Geologist, although highly concentrated in specifics rather than generalizations.


7. " Chemistry. - Profound.

Profound knowledge is above and beyond the norm by significant steps. Let's call this 7-8 ranks, as that puts Holmes at double the capabilities of a professional Chemist.


8. " Anatomy. - Accurate, but unsystematic.

We'll call this a 2-3. He's accurate, but doesn't know a huge deal.


9. " Sensational Literature. - Immense. He appears to know every detail of every horror perpetrated in the century.

Like Chemistry, this is probably a 7-8 ranks. Holmes probably also has a similar ranking in Knowledge (Local), which would make him significantly more knowledgeable than someone who studies London professionally (and thus has 4-5 ranks).


10. Plays the violin well.

Perform, 3-4 ranks. Professional level or close to it, but no master.


11. Is an expert singlestick player, boxer, and swordsman.

All this means is he is a high enough level to have a Base Attack Bonus of +2 or greater, has a decent Strength, and is proficient in those weapons.


12. Has a good practical knowledge of British law.
3-4 ranks in Profession (Lawyer) or Knowledge (law)


This seems to indicate that Holmes could be accurate represented by a character between level 3-5, possibly stretching as high as 6, although I don't think that's necessary.

Due to the nature of D&D he wouldn't be as skilled as his skills would indicate, but that's because D&D scales ranks alongside HD and other powers: Holmes does not have the combat prowess or durability to be much higher than 5th level and, assuming +4 is the baseline for the average professional, level 3-5 puts Holmes fairly well above the average person or even the professional in terms of his chosen fields. It seems to fit.

hamishspence
2013-02-20, 03:35 AM
In D&D the average 1st level professional (who is still something of an apprentice) will have a bonus of +8 in their best skill: 4 ranks, Skill Focus, +1 for their best stat being a 13.

Shining Wrath
2013-02-20, 01:30 PM
I think at various times and places Holmes demonstrates some level of competence in the following skills. Away from my Arthur Conan Doyle at the moment so please don't ask for citations.

Appraise - he knows when he finds the stolen gem, not the fake [INT]
Balance - he traverses difficult terrain with ease [DEX]
Bluff - Numerous times and situations. He can lie convincingly to nobles, to police, and to thieves [CHA]
Climb - some minor proficiency is shown [STR]
Diplomacy - an odd case; normally not on, but when needed he's capable [CHR]
Disguise - a master. [CHR]
Gather information - a master. [CHR]
Hide - some skill [DEX]
Intimidate - proficient [CHR]
Knowledge - discussed above but some sort of Bardic Knack thing is going on because he seems to know something about everything he needs to know about [INT]
Listen - a master. [WIS]
Move Silently - proficient. [DEX]
Open Lock - some skill. [DEX]
Perform - violin - proficient. [DEX]
Profession - detective - makes a decent living [WIS]
Search - a master. [WIS]
Sense motive - I don't recall anyone EVER successfully lying to Holmes. Off the freakin' charts. [WIS]
Sleight of hand - proficient [DEX]
Speak language - several [INT]
Spot - a master. [WIS]


Add to this the aforementioned ability to straighten out a bent poker with a twist of his wrists, the ability to work tirelessly for hours when the game was afoot, and the ability to befriend the Baker Street Irregulars.

I'd say Mr. Holmes is likely a Factorum as a base class, as noted. And all 6 ability scores start at 18, and bonus point went into INT at level 4. You might persuade me that DEX and CON are only 16, but WIS and CHR are plainly maxed out. Although the thought would doubtless horrify Sir Doyle, there's likely a level or two of Bard in there.

Flickerdart
2013-02-20, 01:36 PM
I'd say Mr. Holmes is likely a Factorum as a base class, as noted. And all 6 ability scores start at 18, and bonus point went into INT at level 4. You might persuade me that DEX and CON are only 16, but WIS and CHR are plainly maxed out. Although the thought would doubtless horrify Sir Doyle, there's likely a level or two of Bard in there.
Holmes' relationship with the Irregulars isn't really a friendship in the conventional sense. In fact, Holmes is rather grating to be around, so while he may have Skill Focuses for Gather Information and Disguise (further augmented by his Factotum abilities) his Diplomacy among other Charisma skills would probably not be that high.
18 is the highest ability score possible for a human, and Holmes most definitely does not demonstrate the highest level of human ability in every single thing.

limejuicepowder
2013-02-20, 01:36 PM
I think at various times and places Holmes demonstrates some level of competence in the following skills. Away from my Arthur Conan Doyle at the moment so please don't ask for citations.

Appraise - he knows when he finds the stolen gem, not the fake [INT]
Balance - he traverses difficult terrain with ease [DEX]
Bluff - Numerous times and situations. He can lie convincingly to nobles, to police, and to thieves [CHA]
Climb - some minor proficiency is shown [STR]
Diplomacy - an odd case; normally not on, but when needed he's capable [CHR]
Disguise - a master. [CHR]
Gather information - a master. [CHR]
Hide - some skill [DEX]
Intimidate - proficient [CHR]
Knowledge - discussed above but some sort of Bardic Knack thing is going on because he seems to know something about everything he needs to know about [INT]
Listen - a master. [WIS]
Move Silently - proficient. [DEX]
Open Lock - some skill. [DEX]
Perform - violin - proficient. [DEX]
Profession - detective - makes a decent living [WIS]
Search - a master. [WIS]
Sense motive - I don't recall anyone EVER successfully lying to Holmes. Off the freakin' charts. [WIS]
Sleight of hand - proficient [DEX]
Speak language - several [INT]
Spot - a master. [WIS]


Add to this the aforementioned ability to straighten out a bent poker with a twist of his wrists, the ability to work tirelessly for hours when the game was afoot, and the ability to befriend the Baker Street Irregulars.

I'd say Mr. Holmes is likely a Factorum as a base class, as noted. And all 6 ability scores start at 18, and bonus point went into INT at level 4. You might persuade me that DEX and CON are only 16, but WIS and CHR are plainly maxed out. Although the thought would doubtless horrify Sir Doyle, there's likely a level or two of Bard in there.

18 str? Really? Note too that factotums get Int to str and dex checks, so that would give Sherlock an effective strength of 26 when it comes to breaking down doors, bursting chains, etc. Little overkill, IMO. I also don't quite imagine him being able to sling hundreds of pounds around like nothing.

Remember that most of the people he encounters are average, level 1 commoners. Even being a level 5 commoner, with the extra skills, HD, base attack, saves, etc., would seem extraordinary in comparison - 5 or 6 levels of a t3 PC class, and you're talking serious, once-in-a-generation ability. Throwing nearly impossible ability scores on top of that is probably too much.

Shining Wrath
2013-02-20, 01:41 PM
In D&D the average 1st level professional (who is still something of an apprentice) will have a bonus of +8 in their best skill: 4 ranks, Skill Focus, +1 for their best stat being a 13.

The thing about Holmes is that he's got superb abilities in numerous skills. Listen, Spot, Bluff, Disguise, Sense Motive, Gather Information, and when he cares to, Diplomacy. Not to mention the varied Know(X) scores. That's a score of +8 in perhaps 10 different skills.

There's no way he falls short of 18 in INT, WIS, and CHR. And quite possibly in both STR and CON as well.

Dude's no commoner.

Shining Wrath
2013-02-20, 01:48 PM
18 str? Really? Note too that factotums get Int to str and dex checks, so that would give Sherlock an effective strength of 26 when it comes to breaking down doors, bursting chains, etc. Little overkill, IMO. I also don't quite imagine him being able to sling hundreds of pounds around like nothing.

Remember that most of the people he encounters are average, level 1 commoners. Even being a level 5 commoner, with the extra skills, HD, base attack, saves, etc., would seem extraordinary in comparison - 5 or 6 levels of a t3 PC class, and you're talking serious, once-in-a-generation ability. Throwing nearly impossible ability scores on top of that is probably too much.

Have you ever tried to straighten a bent fireplace poker? Holmes does it with little effort. And he works through the night easily (although that MIGHT be the cocaine :smalltongue:). He's clearly much stronger than I am, and I'm a big guy. I can lift, for example, 80 pound bags of concrete and carry them with moderate effort.

hymer
2013-02-20, 02:05 PM
And he works through the night easily (although that MIGHT be the cocaine :smalltongue:).

Certainly not. The drugs are for when he's bored because of a lack of cases. Besides which, I don't think cocaine perks you up?
I know you were probably kidding, but still.

CarpeGuitarrem
2013-02-20, 02:07 PM
The most important bit, though, is making sure he has access to Feather Fall... :smallwink:

Trasilor
2013-02-20, 02:28 PM
Have you ever tried to straighten a bent fireplace poker? Holmes does it with little effort. And he works through the night easily (although that MIGHT be the cocaine :smalltongue:). He's clearly much stronger than I am, and I'm a big guy. I can lift, for example, 80 pound bags of concrete and carry them with moderate effort.

per D&D lifting 80 lbs and carrying with moderate difficulty would put your STR at 12. See here. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/carryingCapacity.htm)

Unless the character has consistently shown feats of strength above and beyond normal human limits, a STR of 18 us fairly ridiculous.

For Holmes, I would only put his Intelligence at 18. Most of his amazing feats of impressiveness would be the application of his intelligence to the appropriate skill - i.e. a factotem. Any feats he has would be intelligence to X feats. His level would be around 6ish.

Ultimately, this is the problem with trying to put a literary character into the realm of D&D

Shining Wrath
2013-02-20, 02:36 PM
So my strength as a desk-bound middle-aged engineer is 12. Holmes can do something that Dr. Watson considered quite remarkable with a poker, so he's above me by quite a bit.

I'll go down to 16 and that's my final offer :smallbiggrin:

As to his other ability scores, there is no question he routinely performs extraordinary feats of Sense Motive, Spot, and Listen. It is hard to argue that he lacks an extraordinary Wisdom score.

Similarly, his abilities at Disguise and Bluff are repeatedly shown to be extraordinary, approaching the supernatural. Again, it is hard to argue that he lacks an extraordinary Charisma.

Flickerdart
2013-02-20, 02:51 PM
As to his other ability scores, there is no question he routinely performs extraordinary feats of Sense Motive, Spot, and Listen. It is hard to argue that he lacks an extraordinary Wisdom score.

Similarly, his abilities at Disguise and Bluff are repeatedly shown to be extraordinary, approaching the supernatural. Again, it is hard to argue that he lacks an extraordinary Charisma.
You know there is such a thing as skill points and other modifiers, right? He can easily have a low Wisdom and Charisma and more than make up for that through his academic knowledge of obscure things...kind of like the Factotum ability that allows him to add his level to skill checks. Considering how unbearable and manipulative Holmes is, it's pretty obvious that he doesn't just coast by on having a high Charisma.

Shining Wrath
2013-02-20, 03:05 PM
You know there is such a thing as skill points and other modifiers, right? He can easily have a low Wisdom and Charisma and more than make up for that through his academic knowledge of obscure things...kind of like the Factotum ability that allows him to add his level to skill checks. Considering how unbearable and manipulative Holmes is, it's pretty obvious that he doesn't just coast by on having a high Charisma.

In which case he's got to have a high level to generate those skill points ... and when you're talking ten different skills it becomes more plausible to believe a combination of ability score and skill points.

Flickerdart
2013-02-20, 03:06 PM
In which case he's got to have a high level to generate those skill points ... and when you're talking ten different skills it becomes more plausible to believe a combination of ability score and skill points.
Factotum has 6 skill points per level, Int 18 is 4 more, +1 for human, total is 11 skills (plus very unexpected synergy bonuses - Holmes clearly has a permissive DM). I don't see the problem.

HunterOfJello
2013-02-20, 03:17 PM
Does anyone else think he should likely have Bardic Knowledge?

Shining Wrath
2013-02-20, 03:18 PM
Does anyone else think he should likely have Bardic Knowledge?

I suggested he has some bard levels. Perform (violin) ...

Hand_of_Vecna
2013-02-20, 03:26 PM
He also composes original works. I'm pretty sure that's a craft check seperate from Perform.

Gildedragon
2013-02-20, 04:26 PM
Yeah it's a Craft (Composition) check.

Mnemnosyne
2013-02-20, 08:50 PM
The thing with Holmes is that his deductive reasoning isn't well modeled in D&D. There's many occasions where he visually sees no more than anyone else; Watson often sees all the same things he does, but no one else understands the significance of what they're looking at the way Holmes does. A lot of people have what should be considered high knowledge, spot, search, and so forth, but they lack his ability to put together the information they have obtained into the sequence of events that Holmes does.

The only D&D ability that is expressed in a similar manner is the 8th level clairsentience power hypercognition, whose description may as well say "become Sherlock Holmes". So if I wanted to accurately model Holmes in D&D, I would probably say something similar to what others have noted - a low level Factotum, but I would have to say the character has the unique ability to manifest hypercognition as an Ex ability as a free action.

Flickerdart
2013-02-20, 09:39 PM
Hypercognition doesn't actually require you to know the details in order to understand something - you glean information from your subconscious mind and even the Astral Plane. Holmes, on the other hand, could explain his deductions logically every single time.

Mnemnosyne
2013-02-20, 10:30 PM
True, but leaving out that one little addition of drawing knowledge from the astral plane (which is only given as a 'possibly'), the description is exactly what Holmes does. The power also makes no guarantees that the deductions presented are correct; only that they be reasonable statements based on the clue, pattern, or scrap of memory, which again, is much like Holmes in the cases where he has insufficient information. So it does require you to have clues and/or knowledge that would somehow be relevant.

Greenish
2013-02-20, 11:31 PM
The power also makes no guarantees that the deductions presented are correct; only that they be reasonable statements based on the clue, pattern, or scrap of memory, which again, is much like Holmes in the cases where he has insufficient information.If Holmes has insufficient information, he goes and gets sufficient information.

It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data.

Pickford
2013-02-20, 11:43 PM
Not to mention his Gather Information and probably Survival (for the purpose of tracking, perhaps.)

Either way, he'd have a considerable Wisdom score.

I'd argue for a high intelligence (for skill points) but likely lower wisdom/charisma scores given his drug addiction and personality defects.