Teleporting out of bonds.

[Toliudar]

Seeking 3rd party opinions from an ongoing discussion with a DM.

Scenario: wizard in AMF shackles, customized to only affect the wizard. Magic/psionic a transparency is partial (AMF suppresses psionic a 50% of the time. Friendly psionic successfully time hops the wizard. DM rules that the shackles come along, and continue to have a 50% chance each round of ending the time hop.

I'm seeking (ideally) RAW confirmation that either the wizard or psionic should have the power to leave the shackles behind. If you don't have RAW on this, I'd still love to hear your opinions on this. If I'm being unreasonable in my opinion on this, I wanna know!

[Crake]

Seeking 3rd party opinions from an ongoing discussion with a DM.

Scenario: wizard in AMF shackles, customized to only affect the wizard. Magic/psionic a transparency is partial (AMF suppresses psionic a 50% of the time. Friendly psionic successfully time hops the wizard. DM rules that the shackles come along, and continue to have a 50% chance each round of ending the time hop.

I'm seeking (ideally) RAW confirmation that either the wizard or psionic should have the power to leave the shackles behind. If you don't have RAW on this, I'd still love to hear your opinions on this. If I'm being unreasonable in my opinion on this, I wanna know!

When dealing with houserules, you cant really ask for a RAW confirmation. That said, theres no reason why the shackles should be left behind, they're treated as a possession of the wearer, so anything that takes their items along with it should take the shackles. So unless you want to rule that all his clothes and magic items drop off both him and yourself whenever you use timehop, theres no reason for that to work.

[Krobar]

What he said. It sounds like time to break out the hammer and chisel.

[Clae10]

I think technicly that since you are wearing the shackles that they count as stuff on you. I don't think you can teleport out of your clothes. If your DM will let you do that then you could as long as they don't mess with your magic. You probably couldn't cast spells with somatic components because you can't wave your hands around right. You should be able to use items still.



I have to agree: hammer and chisel it is. Teleport somewhere safe and get after it

[Morcleon]

...or you could, y'know, time hop the shackles themselves. Seeing as they only affect the wizard, there is no actual field preventing the shackles from being time hopped. Then, just stand up, and walk away. :smallcool:

[Ranos]

If this was Dimension Door, you'd have a point ("You *can* bring along objects as long as their weight doesn’t exceed your maximum load.") Since this is Time Hop, not so much. But of course Time hop can affect a creature or an object. Why don't you just time hop the shackles ?

[Krobar]

I was assuming the AMF included the shackles, since they're on the character, so you couldn't target them specifically with spells. Otherwise, any number of spells would work, Knock for example.

[Siltharon]

Seeking 3rd party opinions from an ongoing discussion with a DM.

Scenario: wizard in AMF shackles, customized to only affect the wizard. Magic/psionic a transparency is partial (AMF suppresses psionic a 50% of the time. Friendly psionic successfully time hops the wizard. DM rules that the shackles come along, and continue to have a 50% chance each round of ending the time hop.

I'm seeking (ideally) RAW confirmation that either the wizard or psionic should have the power to leave the shackles behind. If you don't have RAW on this, I'd still love to hear your opinions on this. If I'm being unreasonable in my opinion on this, I wanna know!

First and foremost ... your dms words are the rules. Don't mess with him during playing because you might force him into a bad spot where he has to take steps against you. Better talk to him after the session ended and tell him it's not RAW.

Second I agree on the ppls opinion above and there is literally no reason it should be removed upon teleportation.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

By RAW shackles are worn, so you need an effect that doesn't/can choose not to affect worn/carried items.

Are you on terms with your DM that allows you to ask "what is your intent with this item". If they want the shackles to only be unlocked by one of a few specific methods, then they'll find a hole in any reasonable solution. If they're just being sandboxy and thought time hop shouldn't work you have options.

Targeting the object rather than the person should work, though if the DM was cool with this you probably should have gotten a Psicraft check to "do it right" when the Psion announced their intent.

Reasonably, shackles should occupy an odd grey area. A target chained to a wall would be teleported out of their shackles rather than seperating the shackles from the chains and teleporting the subject in shackles. This allows one to ask should chains make a difference?

[Norin]

...or you could, y'know, time hop the shackles themselves. Seeing as they only affect the wizard, there is no actual field preventing the shackles from being time hopped. Then, just stand up, and walk away. :smallcool:

i second this pretty neat idea! Try it. Twice if you fail first attempt.

[Toliudar]

Reasonably, shackles should occupy an odd grey area. A target chained to a wall would be teleported out of their shackles rather than seperating the shackles from the chains and teleporting the subject in shackles. This allows one to ask should chains make a difference?

I did in fact tried to time hop the shackles separately, but since they are being 'wielded', they made their save. I suppose that I can keep trying. As with the 'chained to a wall' scenario, I'd always assumed that you could choose what you considered 'your' gear. Otherwise, stopping someone from teleporting is as simple as hooking a heavy weight onto their belt. But, based on responses above, maybe I'm wrong.

Thanks everyone!

[Chilingsworth]

I did in fact tried to time hop the shackles separately, but since they are being 'wielded', they made their save. I suppose that I can keep trying. As with the 'chained to a wall' scenario, I'd always assumed that you could choose what you considered 'your' gear. Otherwise, stopping someone from teleporting is as simple as hooking a heavy weight onto their belt. But, based on responses above, maybe I'm wrong.

Thanks everyone!

I don't know if you can chose what counts as your gear, but you most certainly can chose to voluntarily fail saves.

Though on second thought, since the object is able to make saves on its own (as a magic item) that might not help.

[tyckspoon]

If the shackles are being 'wielded' by the imprisoned Wizard and he *wants* you to Time Hop them, he should be able to waive the saving throw. If the DM says he doesn't have that option, then you can argue he doesn't 'own'/isn't attending the shackles, and they're just these things that are hanging on him, in which case since they aren't the Wizard's items you should be able to Time Hop the Wizard himself out of them.

(The shackles themselves might be able to make a save against being Time Hopped, but I don't know if there is any precedent for items rolling a save against non-destructive effects, and the shackle's saving throw bonus might be lower than the Wizard's anyway. And I've always been of the 'you can choose what is your gear' school for purposes of teleportation- you just accept that after a certain level merely chaining somebody up is not a secure method of restraint.)

[Morcleon]

I did in fact tried to time hop the shackles separately, but since they are being 'wielded', they made their save. I suppose that I can keep trying. As with the 'chained to a wall' scenario, I'd always assumed that you could choose what you considered 'your' gear. Otherwise, stopping someone from teleporting is as simple as hooking a heavy weight onto their belt. But, based on responses above, maybe I'm wrong.

Thanks everyone!


A creature can voluntarily forego a saving throw and willingly accept a spell’s result.

This. You can simply accept that your 'wielded' shackles have been time hopped.

[Onerai]

If the shackles are being 'wielded' by the imprisoned Wizard and he *wants* you to Time Hop them, he should be able to waive the saving throw. If the DM says he doesn't have that option, then you can argue he doesn't 'own'/isn't attending the shackles, and they're just these things that are hanging on him, in which case since they aren't the Wizard's items you should be able to Time Hop the Wizard himself out of them... *snip*

This is correct by RAW, although the actual result of the scenario depends whether there is another reason that the shackles themselves might be entitled to a save. If the shackles are a cursed or intelligent item, or even just something enchanted to "cling on" to their victim, they may be able to resist the effect of their own volition, using their own saving throw (but not the Wizard's since he doesn't want them to succeed).

In either case the DM controls rule zero and I don't see it as unfair that the Wizard needs other means to get out of said shackles, having escaped imprisonment. If they're non-magical shackles, the "shatter" spell or its psionic equivalent (if there is one) will have you sorted with trivial ease.

[Morcleon]

This is correct by RAW, although the actual result of the scenario depends whether there is another reason that the shackles themselves might be entitled to a save. If the shackles are a cursed or intelligent item, or even just something enchanted to "cling on" to their victim, they may be able to resist the effect of their own volition, using their own saving throw (but not the Wizard's since he doesn't want them to succeed).

In either case the DM controls rule zero and I don't see it as unfair that the Wizard needs other means to get out of said shackles, having escaped imprisonment. If they're non-magical shackles, the "shatter" spell or its psionic equivalent (if there is one) will have you sorted with trivial ease.

They're modified antimagic shackles. You could dispel the shackles for 1d4 rounds, then shatter them.

[Randomguy]

Just grab an adamantine hacksaw.

[Toliudar]

Thanks everyone. There are some great solutions here! Much appreciated.

[Alienist]

I think that trying to rules lawyer your way out of game situations is ultimately a self-defeating approach. I have seen many a campaign fall apart over the years because of DM/player conflict.

So be careful when you set your feet on this path, ask yourself whether it is worth winning a couple of arguments like this if the DM (or other players if they get tired of this approach first?) is then going to abandon the campaign?

If you can seek an in-game solution to this, (e.g. seeking a solution that fits the story-line, instead of winning via meta-methods) rather than 'schooling' your DM on the rues, it might be better for your long term enjoyment of the game.

---

Now that someone has mentioned it, I'm curious about how the game handles cursed items. I seem to vaguely recall that even if you get rid of them somehow they still come back?

Which of the methods suggested so far would (and wouldn't) work if the manacles were cursed?

[Toliudar]

Your point is well made, Alienist. I will endeavour to downshift.