Mystic Theurge

[questionmark693]

The prc seems kinda week compared to other similar classes...not a single class feature past base spell casting for two previous classes, the only prc I know of that I can describe like that. One of my players is taking it, and I'm wondering if it would be wrong to edit the class a bit...say a +1 to caster level for determining spell effects at level one and every three levels thereafter. Is that a bad idea?

[RFLS]

Yeah. 3.5 MT kinda sucks, but it's not the lack of class features. It's the lost caster levels.

[Treblain]

I feel like "fixing" the problem of Mystic Theurge is pretty hard to do without overpowering it by making it too easy to access without losing caster levels. Early-access tricks and fast-advancement classes already make it useful in certain situations, so lowering the entry reqs. and/or making it more than 10 levels might push it over the balance point.

My idea would be to give it a mechanic for casting quickened spells without adjustment to solve the problem of having lots of weaker spells but not enough actions to use them as effectively as a smaller amount of high-level spells. It would even tie into the "arcane + divine" theme if you let them to cast one arcane and one divine spell per round. Actually you can already do this with an MT with Divine Metamagic: Quicken, but whatever.

[TypoNinja]

The prc seems kinda week compared to other similar classes...not a single class feature past base spell casting for two previous classes, the only prc I know of that I can describe like that. One of my players is taking it, and I'm wondering if it would be wrong to edit the class a bit...say a +1 to caster level for determining spell effects at level one and every three levels thereafter. Is that a bad idea?

Versatile Spellcaster feat is your best friend when it comes to Thurgeing in my opinion.


Races of the Dragon, p. 101

Prerequisite

Ability to spontaneously cast spells,

Benefit

You can use two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you know that is one level higher. For example, a sorcerer with this feat can expend two 2nd-level spell slots to cast any 3rd-level spell he knows.


The wording is as open as you could like, they left out any mention of what class said slots and spells must come from. Need a little bit more nuking? Sac two 2nd level cleric spells for a fireball. Buddy bleeding out and you are out of Cleric? Sac two cantrips from your sorc and boom Cure Light Wounds.

It lets you merge your spellcasting pools, and if you want to risk needing a save Vs. Ballistic Trajectory DMG, you can even try pointing out that a cleric "Knows" all the spells on his list.

[SaintRidley]

Eh, just change the first level to +2 spellcasting, give it a bonus metamagic feat at 5th and 10th, let it determine DCs and bonus spells based off the higher casting stat (still requiring 10+ spell level in the appropriate stat to be able to cast the spell at all, though), and maybe something akin to the Ultimate Magus ability which lets you sacrifice spell slots for free metamagic.

Just don't give it a familiar. We want it to be balanced, like Lightning Warrior, and not some insane monstrosity.

[Silvanoshei]

The prc seems kinda week compared to other similar classes...not a single class feature past base spell casting for two previous classes, the only prc I know of that I can describe like that. One of my players is taking it, and I'm wondering if it would be wrong to edit the class a bit...say a +1 to caster level for determining spell effects at level one and every three levels thereafter. Is that a bad idea?

Many might disagree with me on this one... but as DM you can edit the PRC. MT sucks because of one glaring fault, sacked CL. Obviously if you let the PC just have the class from the git go, it'd be too powerful. So, if you want to please the PC and let him not feel too gimped, I'd personally allow my MT PC's to take the class as a normal Base Class, except I tell them they can never have more than 1 spell per class per level.

So only 1 level one wizard spell, and 1 level two wizard spell with only 1 level one cleric spell, etc etc. So the max number of spells per casting level he/she can have is 2. Or something to that regard to make it more balanced.

[Ellrin]

The prc seems kinda week compared to other similar classes...not a single class feature past base spell casting for two previous classes, the only prc I know of that I can describe like that. One of my players is taking it, and I'm wondering if it would be wrong to edit the class a bit...say a +1 to caster level for determining spell effects at level one and every three levels thereafter. Is that a bad idea?

One easy fix is that you could give it the class features of the PF Mystic Theurge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/core-rulebook/mystic-theurge). If that isn't enough (or as an alternative), you could, either as an extra class feature or a homebrew feat, allow the levels of one arcane casting class and one divine casting class that the player has to stack for determining caster level (but not for any other purpose, and only the base classes). You'd have to word it very carefully if you were dealing with an optimizer (or physically hit them, one or the other), but it sounds like the player wants a fairly straightforward theurge build, and probably wouldn't try to take advantage of a ruling like that.

And if he does, seriously, rocks fall.

[karkus]

I'm just here to throw out the (in my opinion) far superior prc, the True Necromancer, from the Libris Mortis. Almost the exact same entry requirements, but you continue progressing in rebuker levels, and there are 14 maximum levels; no having to pick something else after your 10 MT levels are up.

The main difference is that you are a slightly weaker caster because you do not gain both spellcasting levels at each prc level. However, you could have him take this class instead and offer full caster level progression, like that of the MT.

The red flag of my idea, though, is that of how he feels about playing a necromancer. Realistically, the best idea (but would have to be semi-homebrewed) is that you should combine the two classes, giving full caster progression, as well as a few spell-like abilities granted.

[Kaje]

Stop it. True Necromancer is the Worst Thing Ever.

[Ellrin]

Come, now. It's not CW Samurai.

...you get spells.

[SaintRidley]

I'm just here to throw out the (in my opinion) far superior prc, the True Necromancer, from the Libris Mortis. Almost the exact same entry requirements, but you continue progressing in rebuker levels, and there are 14 maximum levels; no having to pick something else after your 10 MT levels are up.

The main difference is that you are a slightly weaker caster because you do not gain both spellcasting levels at each prc level. However, you could have him take this class instead and offer full caster level progression, like that of the MT.

The red flag of my idea, though, is that of how he feels about playing a necromancer. Realistically, the best idea (but would have to be semi-homebrewed) is that you should combine the two classes, giving full caster progression, as well as a few spell-like abilities granted.

True Necromancer is, funny enough, one of the quickest ways to take a necromancer and make it worse at necromancing. Even a fighter with Undead Leadership is better at necromancing than a True Necromancer.

Seriously. Don't do what this guy said.

[Lorsa]

Personally I think the mystic theurge is pretty good. You don't get your high level spells quite as fast but on the other hand you get an awesome amount of spells which means you don't run into the problem of running out of them quite as easily. Sure, getting 1 or 2x of Practice spellcaster is annoying but it could be worse. I seem to remember a player being a mystic theurge once and the amount of buff spells he had was quite astonishing.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Mystic Theurge, without tricks before or after it, is pretty much worse than a single-classed Wizard (or Cleric, for the divine equivalent) all the way up to level 20, at which point it is objectively better. A 20th-level Wizard reached 9th level spells three levels before a Cleric 3/Wizard 7/Mystic Theurge 10, but at 20th level, both of them have 9th-level spells--but the Mystic Theurge also has 7th-level divine spells. There are no three metamagic or item creation feats that are worth more than 13th-level Cleric (or Druid, or Archivist) casting.

[Zanthy1]

I would just like to say that I like the MT class, but I admit that the Pathfinder version is much better.

[Karnith]

True Necromancer stuff
Have you read K's Revised Necromancer Handbook? Or played a True Necromancer, for that matter? Because I have (multiple times, in fact!), and it's a godawfully bad class and painful to play. You have to choose a crappy domain, you're even farther behind on spellcasting at level 20 than a MT would be, for most of your time as a true necromancer you're worse at rebuking undead than a straight-classed cleric would be (and by the time you have a bonus compared to a cleric, rebuking is irrelevant), you can't make undead minions until well beyond a single-classed character could (you're even behind a mystic theurge), your spells will have very low save DCs because of MAD and only having access to lower level spells, and in return for everything you give up you get basically nothing; the spell-like abilities give you access to some medicore spells that you'd be able to cast normally if you weren't theurging. And unlike the mystic theurge, you can't really even cheese your way into getting in early because of the skill requirements. In any game that a mystic theurge would be weak, a true necromancer would be much, much worse.

The only thing that makes it not the worst theurge class ever printed is the yathrinshee.

[Valwyn]

Is he already a cleric? If not, he might want to try take levels of druid and arcane hierophant (similar to MT but druid based). I haven't payed one, but you combine your familiar with your animal companion and can use animals and plants to store spells. You can even wear druid armor without ASF. You also get to advance Wild Shape, but you could always ignore it and trade it for something else (I think you can get Fast Tracking and some Monk bonuses if you give up WS and armor).

If he takes Druid 3/Wiz 3/MT 2/AH 10/MT 2, he'll end up with level 9 spells in both clases.

There's also a feat called Theurgic Specialist (from Dragon #325) that could be useful if he wants to focus on a particular school.

[RFLS]

The wording is as open as you could like, they left out any mention of what class said slots and spells must come from. Need a little bit more nuking? Sac two 2nd level cleric spells for a fireball. Buddy bleeding out and you are out of Cleric? Sac two cantrips from your sorc and boom Cure Light Wounds.

It lets you merge your spellcasting pools, and if you want to risk needing a save Vs. Ballistic Trajectory DMG, you can even try pointing out that a cleric "Knows" all the spells on his list.

You're not suggesting that it allows early entry, are you? Cause that's just wrong.


Stop it. True Necromancer is the Worst Thing Ever.

Quoted for truth.

[Urpriest]

It's not a bad idea to give Mystic Theurge class features, but it's a better idea to use one of the more detailed homebrew fixes floating around, or use other methods to represent this sort of character, like the Magic Domain.

[Onerai]

It's not a bad idea to give Mystic Theurge class features, but it's a better idea to use one of the more detailed homebrew fixes floating around, or use other methods to represent this sort of character, like the Magic Domain.

I personally like this suggestion. Magic Domain grants ability to use magic devices as a wizard of either half or full cleric level (I forget which). If you can persuade your DM to allow runestaffs (from the MIC) into the game, you'd then be able to burn the odd cleric spell for a sorc/wiz when most needed, which would make you versatile and powerful without dropping caster levels.

For those unfamiliar, a runestaff is like an ordinary staff and craft-able with the same feat, but you must expend spell slots or prepared spells to use an equivalent-level spell from the staff. It has limited uses per day, rather than a fixed reserve of charges.

[MikelaC1]

Personally I think the mystic theurge is pretty good. You don't get your high level spells quite as fast but on the other hand you get an awesome amount of spells which means you don't run into the problem of running out of them quite as easily. Sure, getting 1 or 2x of Practice spellcaster is annoying but it could be worse. I seem to remember a player being a mystic theurge once and the amount of buff spells he had was quite astonishing.

I echo this statement. All the people who bash the MT say the same thing, you dont get your nuke spells fast enough. They overlook the double amount of spells you have and the versitility of the MT. Take out your opponent with magic, heal up what damage the party took and continue on. The straight up wizard or cleric cant do both.

[Urpriest]

I echo this statement. All the people who bash the MT say the same thing, you dont get your nuke spells fast enough. They overlook the double amount of spells you have and the versitility of the MT. Take out your opponent with magic, heal up what damage the party took and continue on. The straight up wizard or cleric cant do both.

Really? Why can't Clerics take out people with magic? The Wizard list is better than the Cleric list, but not by all that much. Clerics get plenty of attack spells.

[Karnith]

I echo this statement. All the people who bash the MT say the same thing, you dont get your nuke spells fast enough. They overlook the double amount of spells you have and the versitility of the MT. Take out your opponent with magic, heal up what damage the party took and continue on. The straight up wizard or cleric cant do both.
Well, you don't really have double the spells, because you're going to have lower-level casting abilities than a non-theurged caster would have (i.e. the 7th-level wizard or cleric is going to have 3rd- and 4th-level spells, while the wizard 3/cleric 3/mystic theurge 1 is only going to have access to second-level spells on either side).

Additionally, being able to cast spells from two classes makes you more versatile, sure, but not enough to justify slowing down your spell progression (especially if you aren't using early entry methods). Clerics, wizards, druids, archivists and so on are already amazingly versatile; their spell lists are so huge that, if needed, they can do just about whatever a given situation calls for, and being much worse at casting in order to gain access to those extra spells just isn't worth it.

Getting access to higher-level spells is, generally speaking, much better than getting more lower-level spells. By the time that you can actually enter Mystic Theurge (level 7, by normal means), a single-classed caster has already reached the point where spells per day are not a problem given the standard adventuring day. And not having access to those higher-level spells means that your spells will be significantly less effective against most enemies than spells cast by a single-classed caster.

Lastly, clerics are easily capable of healing and taking dudes out without having access to another spell list, and wizards not being able to heal has never been an issue in a campaign that I've played. Edit: Ninja'd.

[TypoNinja]

You're not suggesting that it allows early entry, are you? Cause that's just wrong.


Versatile Spellcaster? Depends on how much shenanigans your DM will accept. Most likely no. Mine for example ruled that while a Cleric does indeed know all the spells on his list, he needs to be able to naturally cast that level first.

Precocious Apprentice on the other hand is great for early entry.

For Versatile Spellcaster its benefit is it lets you turn two cleric spells into one wizard spell, or two wizard spells into one cleric spell. The utility of that on long adventuring days is spectacular.

[Acanous]

I'd actually reccommend going Druid/Wizard/MT/Arcane Heirophant/the rest of MT, grabbing Precocious Apprentice for Wizard, to allow for early entry.

For one thing, starting with Druid HD and an animal companion is going to help you during the lower levels. With Precocious Apprentice and early entry, you don't lose as much casting. The Familiar Companion and other class features of A.H. and being only ONE level behind for casting, mean you're doing better than a sorceror, with more options available than a Wizard or Cleric, right off the bat.
When you pick up Familiar Companion, you really start to shine, and since Arcane Heirophant and Mystic Theurge both progress Arcane/Divine, you end up with dual 9ths, getting your Divine at 18 and your Arcane at 20.

Given action economy and prerequisites for 2 prestige classes, you really are limited on build choices for things like metamagic or item crafting, but that's fine, given the 9/9 casting.

[MikelaC1]

At the lower levels, I will grant you that the mystic theurge suffers but by the time you get to the higher levels, the difference is mostly gone. Consider a 20th level person...he would have 3 levels as a wizard, 3 levels as a cleric and 14 levels as a mystic. (I remove the 10 level cap, because there is no justification for it). That person would have the 9th level spells in both catagories and with application of 2 practiced spellcaster spell feats, he would have a caster level of 20 as well. Being able to cast 9th level spells of both wizard and cleric outweighs having a few more of only one type of spell.

[Urpriest]

At the lower levels, I will grant you that the mystic theurge suffers but by the time you get to the higher levels, the difference is mostly gone. Consider a 20th level person...he would have 3 levels as a wizard, 3 levels as a cleric and 14 levels as a mystic. (I remove the 10 level cap, because there is no justification for it). That person would have the 9th level spells in both catagories and with application of 2 practiced spellcaster spell feats, he would have a caster level of 20 as well. Being able to cast 9th level spells of both wizard and cleric outweighs having a few more of only one type of spell.

Now consider a 19th level person. Even with your houserule, they cannot cast 9th level spells. So you're losing three levels of access to 9th level spells, in order to cast types of spells you could have cast as a Cleric anyway.

[MikelaC1]

That proves my point. As you continue to level up, the difference disappears.

[Urpriest]

That proves my point. As you continue to level up, the difference disappears.

...no, the difference disappears at level 20. For a single level, this character has the spell levels available of a single-classed caster. Just for 13 encounters of playing time. The rest of the time, you are behind. Furthermore, at this level a single-classed Cleric has 5 9th level spells per day, while your example character has 3. So you don't even have more spells per day (of the levels that matter, anyway).

[MikelaC1]

Both arcane and divine power are needed in any adventuring situation. The mystic theurge provides both. In smaller groups, they are a gold mine.

[Karnith]

That proves my point. As you continue to level up, the difference disappears.
In addition to what Urpriest (who is, after all, always right) said, saying that the Mystic Theurge isn't bad because you've house-ruled it to be less terrible doesn't speak well of the class itself. In fact, it does quite the opposite.

Also, getting to level 7 so you can be a Mystic Theurge, especially during that period of levels 4-6 when you're crawling through your second spellcasting class, is painful. And then you get to be one, sometimes two, spell levels behind all the cool kids. Which is also painful, but less so because you're still a caster.

EDIT:

Both arcane and divine power are needed in any adventuring situation. The mystic theurge provides both. In smaller groups, they are a gold mine.
That first comment isn't actually true, but even if it was, having a wizard and a cleric is better than having a mystic theurge and something else. And if you're playing a solo campaign, you can just play a full caster and be awesome without needing to bog yourself down with trying to pretend that you're two people instead of one.

[Urpriest]

Both arcane and divine power are needed in any adventuring situation. The mystic theurge provides both. In smaller groups, they are a gold mine.

No, they aren't. That point has been made several times in this thread, and you have done nothing to rebut it. There is nothing special about arcane or divine magic that distinguishes one from the other, and Clerics have a large enough list to do almost everything a Wizard can.

[TypoNinja]

Also, getting to level 7 so you can be a Mystic Theurge, especially during that period of levels 4-6 when you're crawling through your second spellcasting class, is painful. And then you get to be one, sometimes two, spell levels behind all the cool kids. Which is also painful, but less so because you're still a caster.


7th? Well yea if you are throwing that many levels away, its a terrible choice. Early Entry for the love of all that's holy.

[Karnith]

7th? Well yea if you are throwing that many levels away, its a terrible choice. Early Entry for the love of all that's holy.
Well, my point has been that mystic theurge is terrible if you aren't using early entry shenanigans. With them, it (and similar classes) can be fine, but if you aren't it is actually painful to play. Other people in the thread have been arguing that the class is fine even if you go in the normal way because of the numbers of spells (known and per day), and I have been trying to argue against that.

Of course, even with early entry shenanigans some theurge classes are still awful (like the yathrinshee).

[SaintRidley]

Personally, I dislike the early entry shenanigans, so I adjust theurge types to give them some extras to combine their magic in ways they otherwise couldn't and lowering their entry requirements to be achievable for 6th level entry. That way they can jump to another theurge type if they choose, so they don't wind up lopsided or something.

[Matticussama]

Mystic Theurge is weaker than straight Wizard or Cleric, sure. However, that isn't necessarily a bad thing. I love the class because it is fun, and it is a good way to dampen my power while still getting something in return. Since I play in a game where most of the other players couldn't optimize their way out of a paper bag, even losing casting levels (I play it without early entry tricks) I am still perfectly capable of being useful in almost every situation.

If you're in a high OP then Mystic Theurge is obviously not the way to go without early entry. However, low to mid OP, it is a good way to be a useful and versatile spellcaster without making every other non-magic user feel incompetent.

[questionmark693]

Wow...lots of opinions in the matter :p basically this situation was a Druid who took a level of wizard to try it out and liked it but didn't want to give up divine magic...all story heavy, so not super optimal, I'm aware. i think the solution I'll go with I'd the pathfinder version, thank you everybody for having opinions!

[Phelix-Mu]

Mystic Theurge is weaker than straight Wizard or Cleric, sure. However, that isn't necessarily a bad thing. I love the class because it is fun, and it is a good way to dampen my power while still getting something in return. Since I play in a game where most of the other players couldn't optimize their way out of a paper bag, even losing casting levels (I play it without early entry tricks) I am still perfectly capable of being useful in almost every situation.

If you're in a high OP then Mystic Theurge is obviously not the way to go without early entry. However, low to mid OP, it is a good way to be a useful and versatile spellcaster without making every other non-magic user feel incompetent.

I very much agree with this statement. MT has some cool feel to it, flexible flavor, and a mechanic that is far from useless. Not optimal, to be sure, but hey, is that all there is to the game?

To the OP, yes, you can add some perks to MT and not make it crazy. Compare to the other existing dual-progression stuff, Arcane Hierophant, Ultimate Magus (close to full), the warlock ones (though they add perks to make up for warlock-ness as well), Fochlucan Lyrist (probably not the best example, they really mucked this one up). Each of these classes has a handful of very useful perks in addition to the full casting for both classes.

As a baseline, adding an extra domain would be cool. I'd make it a choice of a short list, perhaps; additional customization is never a bad thing. Consider also advancing effective cleric level for Turning/Rebuking, though this is at best circumstantially useful. Finally, perhaps a bonus Practiced Spellcaster for one of the casting classes, or perhaps even for both. Narry a game has been broken in this manner (especially when compared to Persist DMM).

[Ellrin]

Wow...lots of opinions in the matter :p basically this situation was a Druid who took a level of wizard to try it out and liked it but didn't want to give up divine magic...all story heavy, so not super optimal, I'm aware. i think the solution I'll go with I'd the pathfinder version, thank you everybody for having opinions!

I'm actually going to be playing a druid/wizard theurge soon, myself, though in Pathfinder. I would actually recommend that the player go Arcane Hierophant (Races of the Wild, p. 108) rather than Mystic Theurge, or at least only use MT to supplement his Arcane Hierophant levels. AH is Mystic Theurge on steroids for druid/arcane casters--you get full casting progression for both classes, your animal companion becomes your new familiar, levels in the class progresses your animal companion familiar and increase your wild shape ability, and you gain the ability to channel your spells through nearby animals and plants. The companion familiar thing alone makes AH better than even the PF mystic theurge; the channel spell thing is just icing on the cake.

EDIT:
Oh, frig, I forgot to mention one of the icing-est parts of this cake--Arcane Hierophants can wear light or medium non-metallic armor with no chance of ASF. Use special materials and boom, you've got access to full plate (or just about anything else) if you want it.

[Phelix-Mu]

Wow...lots of opinions in the matter :p basically this situation was a Druid who took a level of wizard to try it out and liked it but didn't want to give up divine magic...all story heavy, so not super optimal, I'm aware. i think the solution I'll go with I'd the pathfinder version, thank you everybody for having opinions!

Arcane Hierophant from Races of the Wild is the exact perfect class for this situation. No need to retool MT, as Arcane Hierophant is 110% better than MT (except in flexibility), along with some really cool unique abilities, it actually continues to improve some other class abilities of the qualifying classes, namely Familiar and Animal Companion in the Familiar Companion.

Definitely suggest this.

[Ravanan]

If I'm running, I typically change up the requirements a bit. I'll typically go Divine Spellcaster level 3 (i.e. specifically, 3 levels in a divine spellcastin class), and Arcane Spellcaster level 2, or vice versa. This allows for entry at level 6.

A caster who already has animal companions, familiars, turn undead, level-scaling domains, or other class features whose power directly scale with the level in the granting class each go up at full-rate for two levels, half-rate thereafter, odds to divine, evens to arcane, or vice versa (I generally leave this to player choice; note that this is specifically for features that are NOT noted in the levelup chart beyond the initial entry, so, for instance, if the arcane class was assassin, the DC of the assassin's death attack would scale, but he would not gain any extra sneak attack damage [but his effective rogue level would continue to increase for the purposes of flanking those with improved uncanny dodge]; if the divine class was a druid, the duration of hir wild shape would continue to increase if they have it, but their times/day and type/size restrictions would not improve; etc.).

I'll give them bonuses against ASF up to the maximal ASF of the highest armor wearable granted by the divine class. (A cleric/wizard would end up with 40% ASF reduction by level 10, the ACF for Half-Plate, while druids would only get up to 25%, as they cannot wear chainmail and thus their highest is generally non-metal scale mail-while they can wear dragonhide full-plate, druids don't gain heavy armor proficiency by virtue of their class).

Upon taking your first level of the class, you also gain as a bonus to each of your spellcasting classes' caster levels equal to the level in the other type of class a la Practiced Spellcaster (and trying to get this bonus to multiple classes of the same type earns a slap upside the head), so while when you take the class using the standard route, when you take your first level, you may have lost a spell level, which hurts a lot, but your caster level will at least be maxed out in each class.

You might consider adding the PF abilities as well.

In other words, you lose a lot less, and the pain of first acquiring the class is slightly lessened.

Also, doesn't Arcane Hierophant advance wild shape if the character already has it?

[Ellrin]

Also, doesn't Arcane Hierophant advance wild shape if the character already has it?

It actually advances wild shape even if the character doesn't already have it. Levels of AH stack with levels of druid to determine your wildshaping ability, so as long as you have one druid level, you'll get wild shaping as long as you stick with AH long enough.

[Ravanan]

Yeah, so basically, for druids specifically, AH is superior in almost every way, even to my incrementally pumped up MT.