Clear up which version is the right version of Kineticist please

[silverwolfer]

so 3.5 has the pyroKineticist , which s the god awful fire damage with weapons, and then an alterntive was made that gave various energy types.


Then mindeyes also has this http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20030328b , which am pretty sure is a 3.0 version but vastly superior.


Should the mindeyes version be treated as being over written by 3.5 , or as being an entire separate creation that is still mostly valid for use?

[Morcleon]

These are two entirely separate classes. I see no reason why you couldn't allow both to exist at the same time.

[MrLemon]

Also, the XPH pyrokineticist is actually not that bad.
Weapon afire is usable on fire lash.
Fire lash is a whip (up to 15 ft. trip range!) that targets Touch AC and does better damage than a regular whip (1d8+4d6 averages to 18.5)
You can use hand afire to threaten.

You can wield it in two hands. You can Power attack with it (remember: touch attack)
You can finesse it.

Sure, spiked chain is probably better, but you wield a whip made of fire! Or, with the variants ice (or water?), acid or electricity!

[silverwolfer]

Alright ty, the idea was to take the classic kine and give it manfistation progression .

With that goal known , and looking at this compared to the classic prc that everyone says sucks. This prc seems to be a huge improvement,

[Morcleon]

Also, the XPH pyrokineticist is actually not that bad.
Weapon afire is usable on fire lash.
Fire lash is a whip (up to 15 ft. trip range!) that targets Touch AC and does better damage than a regular whip (1d8+4d6 averages to 18.5)
You can use hand afire to threaten.

You can wield it in two hands. You can Power attack with it (remember: touch attack)
You can finesse it.

Sure, spiked chain is probably better, but you wield a whip made of fire! Or, with the variants ice (or water?), acid or electricity!

...but it gives absolutely no ML progression at all. Sure, in a gestalt build with a manifesting class on the other side, it might be good if you get electric or acid, but not in a single path character. :smalltongue:

[Greenish]

...but it gives absolutely no ML progression at all.That's hardly a flaw, given that it doesn't require manifesting to enter.

[Psyren]

If you wanted to beef it up, you could always use the Pathfinder version and enter with Soulknife. That version lets you apply all of your blade enhancements and bladeskills to the fire whip, and one level is all you need. You can even form your regular mind blade in your other hand and twf.

[Snowbluff]

...but it gives absolutely no ML progression at all. Sure, in a gestalt build with a manifesting class on the other side, it might be good if you get electric or acid, but not in a single path character. :smalltongue:

HHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! I am sorry, Morc. I know you use psionics, but 3.5's Pyrokineticist is blatantly meant for "melee". Most psionics would not have any use for it. The class can be effectively a single level long, as well. The whip is easily the best single feature available. :smalltongue:

[Morcleon]

HHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! I am sorry, Morc. I know you use psionics, but 3.5's Pyrokineticist is blatantly meant for "melee". Most psionics would not have any use for it. The class can be effectively a single level long, as well. The whip is easily the best single feature available. :smalltongue:

Uuu... Snow's being mean to me again... >.<

I think I just automatically associate it with manifesting because it's in the XPH and there's firewalk, which is only good if you actually have PP.

[Snowbluff]

I think I just automatically associate it with manifesting because it's in the XPH and there's firewalk, which is only good if you actually have PP.

YEah, but by then I think you can manage a better way of flying. :smallsmile:

[Morcleon]

YEah, but by then I think you can manage a better way of flying. :smallsmile:

You'd be at level 11. With some work, flight is attainable at that level. But walking on air is just sorta awesome. :smallsmile:

[Psyren]

You can fly at level 1 with a feat, and even with the same "walking on air" fluff. By level 11 you could even manage the same speed as a pyro. So if that's your reason... yeah :smalltongue:

[Morcleon]

You can fly at level 1 with a feat, and even with the same "walking on air" fluff. By level 11 you could even manage the same speed as a pyro. So if that's your reason... yeah :smalltongue:

Hm? Do tell...

[Psyren]

Hm? Do tell...

Airstep Sandals from MoI

[Piggy Knowles]

Hm? Do tell...

I assume Psyren's referring to Shape Soulmeld (Airstep Sandals).

[Morcleon]

Airstep Sandals from MoI

Meh... you have to end your movement on solid ground, making it rather useless for combat. And you need quite a bit of essentia to make it have a decent speed.

[silverwolfer]

*waves his arms frantically * Thread stealer, forum defiler, sidetracker devourer!

Flame whip + really fast attack speed, gives you the ability to flight by helicopter

[Morcleon]

*waves his arms frantically * Thread stealer, forum defiler, sidetracker devourer!

Flame whip + really fast attack speed, gives you the ability to flight by helicopter

You could also argue that the "unstable ectoplasm" destabilizes entirely at high velocities, thus rendering flight unattainable.

Or you could state that flight requires an airfoil shape, which a whip is not. :smallwink:

[Psyren]

Meh... you have to end your movement on solid ground, making it rather useless for combat. And you need quite a bit of essentia to make it have a decent speed.

Both of these are solvable by level 11. In the meantime, you had good flight for 10 levels beforehand.

[Morcleon]

Both of these are solvable by level 11. In the meantime, you had good flight for 10 levels beforehand.

How exactly would you solve the "need to end movement solidly supported" bit?

Having to land each time doesn't really seem that good. :smalltongue:

[Psyren]

How exactly would you solve the "need to end movement solidly supported" bit?

Having to land each time doesn't really seem that good. :smalltongue:

The Chakra Bind arguably removes this restriction, and you get it at level 6. (It is sadly ambiguous - MoI is poorly edited.)

[Morcleon]

The Chakra Bind arguably removes this restriction, and you get it at level 6. (It is sadly ambiguous - MoI is poorly edited.)

I can see the argument, but by RAW, it never says you don't have to land. It just increases your maneuverability to perfect. Wouldn't be unbalancing to make it so you don't have to though.

A lot of books are poorly edited...:smalltongue:

[Psyren]

I can see the argument, but by RAW, it never says you don't have to land.

The argument is actually that the bind gives you a separate flight ability with no restrictions. Rather than say "your maneuverability increases to perfect" which would imply the same flight ability as the non-bind, it just gives you perfect flight. As this second one says nothing about landing, you are left with the default rules on perfect flight - which explicitly allow you to hover.

[Morcleon]

The argument is actually that the bind gives you a separate flight ability with no restrictions. Rather than say "your maneuverability increases to perfect" which would imply the same flight ability as the non-bind, it just gives you perfect flight. As this second one says nothing about landing, you are left with the default rules on perfect flight - which explicitly allow you to hover.

Of course, the counter argument is that, as it never states the speed or any other aspects of flight, everything not explicitly changed remains valid.

*shrug* Yet another grey area in the D&D rules. :smalltongue:

[Psyren]

Of course, the counter argument is that, as it never states the speed or any other aspects of flight, everything not explicitly changed remains valid.

*shrug* Yet another grey area in the D&D rules. :smalltongue:

The speed is stated - 10ft. per essentia invested, which would be common to every flight ability provided by the meld.

You would merely lose out on the base 10 ft. granted by the unbound meld.

[Morcleon]

The speed is stated - 10ft. per essentia invested, which would be common to every flight ability provided by the meld.

You would merely lose out on the base 10 ft. granted by the unbound meld.

Boosts from essentia invested are separate from chakra bind bonuses. If the bound ability cannot be separate from the normal ability due to this.

[Soranar]

pyrokineticist does have variants (found here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625e) , one for each energy type, best is the sonic version since very few things have sonic resistance. Reduces your whip's damage die by 1 so you deal 1d6 damage but your main damage bonus should come from power attack anyway.

Like others have mentioned before, you only want a 1 level dip in the class and you want to use a melee oriented build for it.

The lash is also a ranged touch attack (despite the fact that you can use melee feats with it) so it doesn't benefit from STR and you can't charge with a ranged weapon either so pounce won't help you, you'd need something that grants free movement like travel devotion.

[Snowbluff]

The lash is also a ranged touch attack (despite the fact that you can use melee feats with it) so it doesn't benefit from STR and you can't charge with a ranged weapon either so pounce won't help you, you'd need something that grants free movement like travel devotion.

The good news is that power attack works with it, since power attack is a feat that works with a whip. :smallsmile:

[Psyren]

It also benefits from precision damage like sneak attack, so a 1-level dip is nice for a rogue or psyrogue.


Boosts from essentia invested are separate from chakra bind bonuses.

Essentia applies to both base and bind abilities. For instance, Fellmist Robe grants concealment as the base ability against ranged attacks - the chakra bind (Soul) grants concealment against melee attacks. The essentia invested increases the % concealment for both of these. Similarly - Blink Shirt's base ability lets you DD as a standard action, the totem bind lets you DD as a move action - the essentia invested increases the distance for both of these uses.

[Morcleon]

The good news is that power attack works with it, since power attack is a feat that works with a whip. :smallsmile:

It's still a 1H weapon... Although the touch attack part lets you pretty much full power attack all the time. :smallwink:


Essentia applies to both base and bind abilities. For instance, Fellmist Robe grants concealment as the base ability against ranged attacks - the chakra bind (Soul) grants concealment against melee attacks. The essentia invested increases the % concealment for both of these. Similarly - Blink Shirt's base ability lets you DD as a standard action, the totem bind lets you DD as a move action - the essentia invested increases the distance for both of these uses.

Invested essentia may apply to both base and bound abilities, but as the airstep sandals bound ability is an upgrade onto the base, it retains all of the base restrictions.

[Psyren]

Invested essentia may apply to both base and bound abilities, but as the airstep sandals bound ability is an upgrade onto the base, it retains all of the base restrictions.

Again, that is debatable. It does not say your existing maneuverability improves - it just gives you a new one. Contrast with the two soulmelds I mentioned (Blink Shirt and Fellmist Robe) where the base ability is referenced and upgraded in the bind.

[Morcleon]

Again, that is debatable. It does not say your existing maneuverability improves - it just gives you a new one. Contrast with the two soulmelds I mentioned (Blink Shirt and Fellmist Robe) where the base ability is referenced and upgraded in the bind.

The ankheg breastplate gives different abilities for the chakra binds, and gives a specific numerical ruling on essentia invested. However, if the bound ability for the airstep sandals is a different ability, there should be something in there stating a fly speed (or even referencing that the fly speed is the same as unbound). Since it doesn't, then it defaults back to the unbound flight, with the same restrictions.

[Psyren]

The ankheg breastplate gives different abilities for the chakra binds, and gives a specific numerical ruling on essentia invested. However, if the bound ability for the airstep sandals is a different ability, there should be something in there stating a fly speed (or even referencing that the fly speed is the same as unbound). Since it doesn't, then it defaults back to the unbound flight, with the same restrictions.

Ankheg isn't comparable as the essentia ability (defense) has nothing to do with the binds at all (two forms of attack.) They're totally unrelated. But the three melds I listed do have binds and base abilities that benefit from your essentia amount.

(We may want to take this to PM.)