Weapon attack + bite attack = Mildly irritating

[Jon_Dahl]

Some playable creatures use the following melee attack combination: Weapon attack and bite attack.

Otherwise this is ok, but it's very difficult to visualise. It damages verisimilitude and it's annoying.

Eg we have a half-dragon sorcerer with a spear. She stabs with the spear, then steps forward and bites, then steps back and stabs. It seems like comedy.

To put it short: Using a melee-weapon needs space. In order to bite someone you need to get extremely close. When you combine these two within a timeframe of 6 second (3 if you moved), it just seems demented.

I'd like to create half-dragon barbarian, but the fact that he will continuously swing a greatsword, then step forward, nod and bite, breaks my head.

[ArcturusV]

Yeah... it's kinda weird. I may suggest limiting bite attacks to natural attack patterns:

E.g.: The Roc swoops down, hits you with both talons, and while it has a grip on you bites an ear off with it's beak.

Or limiting them to light weapon categories:

E.g.: I stabbed someone in the gut with a dagger, as I sink the blade into his stomach I also take a bite out of his shoulder.

If you care about that sort of thing.

[hymer]

I agree it's a bit odd. But try going with it and see if you can't come up with something useful. Like biting occurs when you lock blades, or you snap at the enemy's arm rather than his face. In the case of the spear, imagine, maybe, a fighting style, where the spear is used more like a staff after the initial thrust, because the enemy got close after that.
Or consider it abstract, like it was in 2nd edition. Over the fight the damage from the bites pile up, and only the last of the mechanical bites is the actual cinematic bite, which kills the opponent off. I don't expect you imagine the fighter struck by 20 arrows walking around like a big pin cushion either?

[Vaz]

Hit points is an abstract, representing fighting spirit, etc and morale in addition to actual bloodloss. So attacking with a spear could lead someone to dodge one attack, fatiguing them slightly, but also opening them up to a bite attack.

[SilverLeaf167]

If you either use the bite first or are willing to ignore the order of attack rolls when it comes to fluffing the attack (totally reasonable), I think biting (or trying to bite) your enemy's neck area and then moving your arm around to stab them in the back with a sword/dagger/etc. looks much more reasonable and pretty cool. Much harder to imagine with a spear though.

As mentioned, imagining HP as an abstraction (representing stuff other than just physical damage) helps too.

[Umbranar]

Combat is chaos. You move forward to attack, enemy sidesteps and moves forward, you step into the blow and block and maybe even bite. Thing is, you char fills a "sqaure" and looks static butvyou actually move alot (Game of Thrones Eddard vs Jamie?).
I can imagine your able to bite somewhere in your clash of weapons.

[chainlink]

Just because someone has 1, 2 or 3 attacks doesn't have to mean they swing/claw/bite 1, 2 or 3 times. Same they don't have to spear/bite/spear. Hell 2 spear attacks could be interpreted as one drive if you want.

Combat is a flurry of strikes and feints with the game mechanics saying only 1 or 2 connected or otherwise unbalanced/bruised/etc.

If you take HP and attacks literally well, the whole game just doesn't work if you take it with that mentality.

[Synovia]

Hit points is an abstract, representing fighting spirit, etc and morale in addition to actual bloodloss. So attacking with a spear could lead someone to dodge one attack, fatiguing them slightly, but also opening them up to a bite attack.

This.

Its not necessarilly the bad guy digging his teeth into your shoulder that causes HP loss, its having to be wary of the bad guy's face while you're trying to not get stabbed.

It doesn't make as much sense with a spear (although a short-spear isn't all that big), but any smaller weapon it does.


As mentioned, imagining HP as an abstraction (representing stuff other than just physical damage) helps too.

Hit points ARE an abstraction for stuff other than physical damage (luck, fatigue, etc). Characters don't get more blood as they level, they get better at turning what would be a killing blow into a glancing one.

[SilverLeaf167]

Hit points ARE an abstraction for stuff other than physical damage (luck, fatigue, etc). Characters don't get more blood as they level, they get better at turning what would be a killing blow into a glancing one.
I never said they weren't, I just emphasized something another poster had already said because I agree with the idea and a lot of people just don't realize it.

[Rakoa]

Also remember that a round is six seconds in length. So a spear + bite attack isn't as simple as stab, step, bite, step back. An attack roll doesn't represent every single swing of your weapon, it represents an opening that presents itself every six seconds or so (or more, if you have high BAB).

So a spear + bite combo would look like, over the course of a round, look like some weapon parries, a few side step shuffles, an opening for a bite, some more quick steps, an opening for a spear attack, and so on.

[Ernir]

I'd like to create half-dragon barbarian, but the fact that he will continuously swing a greatsword, then step forward, nod and bite, breaks my head.

That's turn-based combat for you. If you take it literally, you will end up with a broken head.

The obvious solution is to not do that.

The combat round is an abstraction of a confused melee. A round in which you land a hit with your greatsword is a round where you managed to take advantage of your reach. A round in which you managed to bite is a round in which your opponent tried to get under your guard, but you managed to fend him off with your teeth.
A round in which you hit with your greatsword and your bite is a round in which you swung hard enough to shatter your opponent's defense, and managed to close in for a bite before you get the back swing under control. Or a round in which your opponent tried to lunge, failed, and was nicked by your sword before coming within the deadly reach of your bite. Or a round in which he got under your sword's reach after taking a single hit, and you ended up wrestling him off with your teeth.


Your character is not a chess piece! :smalltongue:

[Jon_Dahl]

But the thing is that in our games when you succeed in an attack roll, there is some describable effect. Some sort of abstraction is not very satisfactory.
"You succeeded in making him wary, which inflicted 6 hp damage. Gratz."

[Coidzor]

If you thinks that's bad, how about having a dragon the size of a semi biting you, hitting you with its tail twice, clawing you twice, slapping you with both wings that it is using to fly, and then bodyslamming you in the space of 6 seconds.

[navar100]

But creating a ball of heat and flame out of bat poo is totally realistic.

[Scow2]

But creating a ball of heat and flame out of bat poo is totally realistic.

At least it's possible to visualize the ball of bat**** igniting and flying down a corridor to explode. Just keeping track of the assorted body parts of a dragon fighting in the space of six seconds is a different matter.

[Magnera]

But creating a ball of heat and flame out of bat poo is totally realistic.

Touché

Those poor cat girls!

[Urpriest]

But the thing is that in our games when you succeed in an attack roll, there is some describable effect. Some sort of abstraction is not very satisfactory.
"You succeeded in making him wary, which inflicted 6 hp damage. Gratz."

It's still possible to make this sort of thing work, provided that you still think of HP as wounds (which about half the game mechanics assume as well give or take). Just take on the "the attacks made are just the ones that hit" mentality. So someone makes a bunch of attacks for every attack, but only the ones that hit get a description, so the guy who bites and spears doesn't do it in one smooth motion, but rather as two separate events in the tide of battle.

[Jon_Dahl]

But creating a ball of heat and flame out of bat poo is totally realistic.

Fair enough, but I'd still like to see your face after your character has bitten an opponent for 6 hp of damage and I tell you this:
"You made your opponent wary/a bit more tired."
I'd repeat this several times and your character's bite would never actually draw blood. It might not be satisfactory.

[TaiLiu]

It might not be satisfactory.

A mix, perhaps? If your player is feeling bloodthirsty, you could say something along the lines of "Your character lunges forward, attempting to chomp the foe. The foe jumps back a second too late, and your character draws a bit of blood."

Blood plus wariness/fatigue; a compromise.

[Averis Vol]

I'll be completely honest; I feel like the whole "HP is an abstract concept that actually doesn't mean how resilient you are, its more so how your feeling," thing is a complete load. If you want to justify your growing ability to take axes to the face, just think of an increased toughness and resiliency through your travels. It is also why you justify a wizard having far less then someone physically works himself like a barbarian.

as for justifying the spear+bite..... well, choke up and give a downward thrust into the shin/thigh from high and force him back with the haft of your spear before leaning in a taking a bite out of the enemies shoulder. As he regains his composure leap back and draw your spear out before sending it up into the kneeling mans chin. It would be a very all in sort of combat style, but its not hard to justify, and I could probably give you a reason for every kind of fighting style.

Though that may be because I am a weapons nut.

[Ernir]

But the thing is that in our games when you succeed in an attack roll, there is some describable effect. Some sort of abstraction is not very satisfactory.
"You succeeded in making him wary, which inflicted 6 hp damage. Gratz."
If so, I'd say the problem is not fundamentally the one of fighting with weapons of different lengths being unrealistic, but the one of it not fitting with your group's chosen style of combat narrative.

[Big Fau]

To put it short: Using a melee-weapon needs space. In order to bite someone you need to get extremely close. When you combine these two within a timeframe of 6 second (3 if you moved), it just seems demented.

I'd like to create half-dragon barbarian, but the fact that he will continuously swing a greatsword, then step forward, nod and bite, breaks my head.

I feel noncasters in 3.5 have enough rules based on "logic" holding them back that you should stop thinking about this subject and run with it.

[Ashtagon]

In D&D, a 1st level warrior can strike once per six seconds. Even a a 20th level warrior fighting single-stick gets only four attacks per six seconds.

Now try using a foil, epee, or sabre some time. If you aren't getting at least one swing a second, it's because you have your sword en garde. Experts should be able to swing faster, unless they have been schooled in a method that forces the sword-fighting into a timed "dance".

Compared to real world combat, D&D combat is almost a sedately affair.

[TuggyNE]

In D&D, a 1st level warrior can strike once per six seconds. Even a a 20th level warrior fighting single-stick gets only four attacks per six seconds.

Assuming, of course, you don't use Urpriest's suggested rationalization.

However, I don't know exactly how plausible it is that more skill gives proportionally more opportunities to land good hits. (I.e., BAB gives you one, two, or three extra solid hit chances.)

[ArcturusV]

Well, I think most understand that intrinsically. Like one thing I do in my games to get players immersed is tell them to "Give me a deathblow description" when they drop an enemy. And even if it was just a single attack roll that did it you still see them talk about how they did a combo finisher and the like. Which is fine by me.

[Ashtagon]

Assuming, of course, you don't use Urpriest's suggested rationalization.

However, I don't know exactly how plausible it is that more skill gives proportionally more opportunities to land good hits. (I.e., BAB gives you one, two, or three extra solid hit chances.)

Realistically, a master swordsman facing a novice could easily hit him for meaningful damage ten times in six seconds — assuming the poor sap continued to stand of course.

D&D can't model that.

[Waddacku]

The important part is that 6 HP isn't as much to everybody. A 6 damage hit to your average 1 HD humanoid will knock him out cold with a significant risk of eventual death. A 6 damage hit to a level 15 Warblade? He's not sure if he felt something touch him or not.

[lsfreak]

I'll be completely honest; I feel like the whole "HP is an abstract concept that actually doesn't mean how resilient you are, its more so how your feeling," thing is a complete load. If you want to justify your growing ability to take axes to the face, just think of an increased toughness and resiliency through your travels. It is also why you justify a wizard having far less then someone physically works himself like a barbarian.

That's explicitly how D&D 3.5e describes health - not just resilience.

What Hit Points Represent: Hit points mean two things in the game world: the ability to take physical punishment and keep going, and the ability to turn a serious blow into a less serious one. For some characters, hit points may represent divine favor or inner power. When a paladin survives a fireball, you will be hard pressed to convince bystanders that she doesn't have the favor of some higher power.

[Immabozo]

I read about half the thread and got sick of reading the same idea regurgitated in different words, so sorry if I missed something.

But beyond what was said, if you take Star Wars lightsaber combat for a minute. In episode 3 on whatever planet in the mustafar system, when Obe-Wan and Anakin are going at it with lightsabers, at one point, they block each others blows and stare angrily at each other before force pushing each other at the same time.

In a situation like that, (obviously not with lighsabers and force powers) a bite attack would be a great addition to your offence

[Slipperychicken]

When he moves around to try to defend himself, bite his limbs.


Also, yeah, characters are supposed to be constantly bounding around their squares. I could see them getting close enough to bite.

[Averis Vol]

That's explicitly how D&D 3.5e describes health - not just resilience.


Except it says nothing about "that fireball, while scorching you a bit, really made you tired." A paladin can call it whatever he wants, and maybe his/her god gave him/her that little extra nudge to the fireballs radius, but I cannot rationalise half damage from a fireball just making him a little tired. Maybe after the fight when the adrenaline wears out yea, but....yea no, just doesn't cut it for me.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

But the thing is that in our games when you succeed in an attack roll, there is some describable effect. Some sort of abstraction is not very satisfactory.
"You succeeded in making him wary, which inflicted 6 hp damage. Gratz."

Yup, that would be boring, that's why I only flex my DM/fight choreographer muscles for when something interesting like combatants going down, crits and unexpected misses/saves.

Otherwise it's;

Player: 20?

Me: Nat?

Player: No.

Me: Ok, well that's a hit.

Player: for 12.

Me: Kay.

Not every exchange has to be epic, if nothing game changing happened in the round they were just Errol Flynning and ticking off hp.

[Coidzor]

Except it says nothing about "that fireball, while scorching you a bit, really made you tired." A paladin can call it whatever he wants, and maybe his/her god gave him/her that little extra nudge to the fireballs radius, but I cannot rationalise half damage from a fireball just making him a little tired. Maybe after the fight when the adrenaline wears out yea, but....yea no, just doesn't cut it for me.

So chuck the word tired if you have so much of an issue with it. There's a lot of other ways to include morale, such as willpower. And if you don't think exsanguination can sap willpower I don't know how we can really have much more to say to each other on the subject of 3rd edition D&D and HP. :smallconfused:

I'm frankly confused by the way people are bandying about "wary (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/wary)" and "wariness" in this thread, since it doesn't seem to match any game constructs I've heard about, fanon explanations, dictionary definitions, or the ways I've seen people use it in the past.


Fair enough, but I'd still like to see your face after your character has bitten an opponent for 6 hp of damage and I tell you this:
"You made your opponent wary/a bit more tired."
I'd repeat this several times and your character's bite would never actually draw blood. It might not be satisfactory.

Passive-aggressive DMing rarely is, I must admit.

[Averis Vol]

So chuck the word tired if you have so much of an issue with it. There's a lot of other ways to include morale, such as willpower. And if you don't think exsanguination can sap willpower I don't know how we can really have much more to say to each other on the subject of 3rd edition D&D and HP. :smallconfused:




All the reasons I'm hearing simply state side effects of blood loss from physical wounds.

1) loss of willpower has no effect on hitpoints, if it did it would only make it harder for someone to pass a will save.
2) yes there are negative repercussions to massive blood loss from excessive wounds, most of which are staved off by adrenaline; the bodies natural defense against predators since the day man first roamed the earth.

Though this is just my closed minded opinion, if you want to say hitpoints are affected by morale in your game, that is fine by me. All I seek is the acceptance that saying, "having a bad nights sleep/bad breakfast/your captain dying before you, dealt you for 5 damage, your now dying," is absurdly silly.

[ArcturusV]

Rather just go with the "Turn a lethal blow into a less lethal one" and the like. More HP means more Experience, a bit tougher in the case of Con raises, more skilled, etc. It means that instead of just taking that axe to the face you got your shield partially up in time so that your shield might have just bashed you in the face, bloodied your nose, etc, instead of having a battleaxe splitting your skull.

[Averis Vol]

Rather just go with the "Turn a lethal blow into a less lethal one" and the like. More HP means more Experience, a bit tougher in the case of Con raises, more skilled, etc. It means that instead of just taking that axe to the face you got your shield partially up in time so that your shield might have just bashed you in the face, bloodied your nose, etc, instead of having a battleaxe splitting your skull.

First reasonable response (for this side conversation at least) all thread, thank you ArctursV.

[Coidzor]

All the reasons I'm hearing simply state side effects of blood loss from physical wounds.

1) loss of willpower has no effect on hitpoints, if it did it would only make it harder for someone to pass a will save.
2) yes there are negative repercussions to massive blood loss from excessive wounds, most of which are staved off by adrenaline; the bodies natural defense against predators since the day man first roamed the earth.

Though this is just my closed minded opinion, if you want to say hitpoints are affected by morale in your game, that is fine by me. All I seek is the acceptance that saying, "having a bad nights sleep/bad breakfast/your captain dying before you, dealt you for 5 damage, your now dying," is absurdly silly.

Well you're going well beyond that. I must have missed whatever malarkey set you off because otherwise I'd swear you were just strawmanning at this point.

[Immabozo]

Look at it like this, even in the Matrix, Neo had levels in Tech support base class, levels in having his mind freed PrC and then started taking levels in The One PrC.

Even though he had so many "Hit points" (and insanely high AC), six bullets to the chest still killed him. But the first, he did not crumple and die from.

Although, as a nifty class feature, he had resurection upon death on a 30 second delay.

But once he was resurrected, he reached level 10 in The One PrC and had some nifty new spell-like abilities.

[Averis Vol]

Well you're going well beyond that. I must have missed whatever malarkey set you off because otherwise I'd swear you were just strawmanning at this point.

Though I've heard that phrase before I don't quite know what it means, though I can make some base assumptions as to what it is. yes, that last part was completely out of line, and I kind of regret posting it, my point was that willpower is already a defined term in the game, so trying to connect it to hitpoints is a bizarre notion for me, along with moral and other terms that have specific meanings that don't quite relate to how close you are to death.

[Greenish]

I usually think of HP as a plot armour. You can be beaten and battered and bleeding from a dozen scratches, but as long as you've got HP left, you're good to go, like the John McLane you are.

[ArcturusV]

"Straw manning" usually refers to a somewhat popular old school debate topic. One where YOU define the opposition, rather than the representative of that opposition, so that you can poke holes in its theory while giving the appearance of being reasonable and understanding while allowing you to be anything but, and create extremism and false ideals where none existed to use against the opposition's point of view.

Least that's how people frame it up and use it in modern context that I see.

[Averis Vol]

"Straw manning" usually refers to a somewhat popular old school debate topic. One where YOU define the opposition, rather than the representative of that opposition, so that you can poke holes in its theory while giving the appearance of being reasonable and understanding while allowing you to be anything but, and create extremism and false ideals where none existed to use against the opposition's point of view.

Least that's how people frame it up and use it in modern context that I see.

Ahh, kay, I see now. I apologize for being a complete jackass then.

[Synovia]

Except it says nothing about "that fireball, while scorching you a bit, really made you tired." A paladin can call it whatever he wants, and maybe his/her god gave him/her that little extra nudge to the fireballs radius, but I cannot rationalise half damage from a fireball just making him a little tired. Maybe after the fight when the adrenaline wears out yea, but....yea no, just doesn't cut it for me.

Half damage means you SAVED against a fireball, essentially you managed to shrug it off or get out of the way. You're tired from dodging, etc, the fireball.

[Synovia]

First reasonable response (for this side conversation at least) all thread, thank you ArctursV.
Its the same as every other response, and its pretty much word for word from the SRD/PHB.


In D&D, a 1st level warrior can strike once per six seconds. Even a a 20th level warrior fighting single-stick gets only four attacks per six seconds.


A 1st level warrior is striking as often as he can. He gets 1 "attack" in the system because he essentially gets one chance to cause damage every 6 seconds during combat. He may "stab" 35 times in that 6 seconds, he's just only good enough to do 1 dice worth of "damage" against a typical opponent.

These are abstractions. Nothing in D&D combat maps 1-to-1 real life.

[Chained Birds]

I also had some difficult visualizing my Catfolk Barbarian's Full-Attack, which includes 2 claw attack, 1 bite, and 1 gore attack. I can come up with some ideas for what the claws and gore attacks look like when combined, but that one bite attack messes up everything!

[TuggyNE]

These are abstractions. Nothing in D&D combat maps 1-to-1 real life.

Which, when you come right down to it, is almost certainly the root of all the trouble; it feels like it should map, due to the precision involved, but it doesn't.

There's no real solution to that if that bugs you except using another system, sadly.

[Immabozo]

Which, when you come right down to it, is almost certainly the root of all the trouble; it feels like it should map, due to the precision involved, but it doesn't.

There's no real solution to that if that bugs you except using another system, sadly.

Hey, if the boogeyman, werewolves and men having mystical power and shooting fireballs from their fingertips, are fine, but its the fitting bites into your attack that is too much for the suspension of belief... well I dont know what to say.

[TuggyNE]

Hey, if the boogeyman, werewolves and men having mystical power and shooting fireballs from their fingertips, are fine, but its the fitting bites into your attack that is too much for the suspension of belief... well I dont know what to say.

As Nick in Schlock Mercenary says about custom white gold grips for handguns to kill ghosts, "They can't make up the rules for guns because I already know those rules!" (I would link the strip but I can't seem to find it right now. :smallfrown:)

Or, in other words, suspension of disbelief is harder when it contradicts, in considerable detail, something you already know in considerable detail.

[Scow2]

Half damage means you SAVED against a fireball, essentially you managed to shrug it off or get out of the way. You're tired from dodging, etc, the fireball.

Making the save means you're able to cover yourself to negate the damage, not get out of the way (Unless you have Evasion). It's the difference between turning away from the blast and shielding your face, and being caught by surprise and taking the whole fwoosh standing straight.

A hit is a hit - Anything else is just nonsense. However, high HP are both toughness and the ability to turn a lethal blow into a less lethal blow - not negate the blow entirely unless you have Damage Resistance. But it's just a scratch.

[Immabozo]

As Nick in Schlock Mercenary says about custom white gold grips for handguns to kill ghosts, "They can't make up the rules for guns because I already know those rules!" (I would link the strip but I can't seem to find it right now. :smallfrown:)

Or, in other words, suspension of disbelief is harder when it contradicts, in considerable detail, something you already know in considerable detail.

So exactly where did you learn about how half dragons and things with claw and fangs with an intelligence higher that 3, conduct their hand-to-hand combat?

[Ashtagon]

So exactly where did you learn about how half dragons and things with claw and fangs with an intelligence higher that 3, conduct their hand-to-hand combat?

Kindergarten.

Some of the kids there were neither toilet-trained nor house-broken.

[Immabozo]

Kindergarten.

Some of the kids there were neither toilet-trained nor house-broken.

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha, touche.

But exactly how do they not bite and scratch at least once ever 6 seconds in a fight?

[TuggyNE]

So exactly where did you learn about how half dragons and things with claw and fangs with an intelligence higher that 3, conduct their hand-to-hand combat?

I, personally, don't have any particular problem with the OP's fluff dilemma. I do however have a bit of a problem with iteratives, and there are quite a few other things that are also weird.

[Immabozo]

I, personally, don't have any particular problem with the OP's fluff dilemma. I do however have a bit of a problem with iteratives, and there are quite a few other things that are also weird.

Ah, ok.

There is no doubt there are a few things that are odd, but I challenge anyone to make a more workable system. It's not easy!

[Synovia]

Or, in other words, suspension of disbelief is harder when it contradicts, in considerable detail, something you already know in considerable detail.

The problem is that probably less than 1% of people playing D&D know anything about actual combat, and yet everyone seems to think they're experts. There's all sorts of things that actually model combat well (in all editions) that people think are ridiculous, and things that are ridiculous that people think are fine.

[Synovia]

Making the save means you're able to cover yourself to negate the damage, not get out of the way (Unless you have Evasion). It's the difference between turning away from the blast and shielding your face, and being caught by surprise and taking the whole fwoosh standing straight.


A reflex save means you got away. Thats what it is, you had good enough reflexes to not get damaged.



A hit is a hit - Anything else is just nonsense.

And yet, its defined as otherwise in the rules.