Nonsense Question but need a ruling [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

GutterFace

2013-02-18, 08:01 AM

Ok, i have a group of people i am running a game for that love to test out shenanigans and pick my brain with magical nonsense.

Here is the skinny: Level 5 campaign. this one guy is a Commoner 1/ Dragonfire Adept 4.

He took the flaw for Commoner - Pig Bond and is trying to exploit it.

he invokes Humanoid Shape and turns into someone else he knows.

puts the pig down and backs up. instantly summoning Orcus!

now the Pig bond feat says Orcus transforms from the pig and skins you.

but can Orcus see though this Humandoi Shape guise? im assuming so...right? if not he would probably assume it was someone else that put the pig down?

Grod_The_Giant

2013-02-18, 08:26 AM

True seeing lets you see the true form of "polymorphed, changed, or transmuted things." Boom.

Alternately, "Yeah, he walks right over and bites your head off. How'd he know it was you? He's ******* Orcus, that's how."

Zanthy1

2013-02-18, 08:59 AM

Why does he want to summon Orcus anyway?

GutterFace

2013-02-18, 09:20 AM

im not sure why he wants to summon him, im sure its for no good reason. but im just making sure Orcus wont put up with his shenanigans. which, i wont let him.

does anyone know how much damage having your skin removed does? and does DR lessen this?

gotta cover all my bases.

supermonkeyjoe

2013-02-18, 09:30 AM

I would say having your skin removed would put you somewhere between -1 and -9hp, unless it specifies somewhere that this is a magical effect that allows you to survive healthily with NO SKIN!

Shining Wrath

2013-02-18, 11:00 AM

Being skinned alive is fatal. The blood loss is extreme, the pain is off the charts, the chance of infection is 100% (especially if skinned alive by Orcus, who is not the cleanest person), and your skin is actually the largest organ by weight of your body. You go into shock, then you bleed out in a matter of seconds. If some magic preserves you alive, you get d4+2 different heinous diseases.

Orcus is CR22. His Wisdom and Int are both 20+. He sees through any illusion a level 5 character can possibly cast.

GutterFace

2013-02-18, 11:18 AM

Dr Bwaa

2013-02-18, 11:25 AM

Does he think he's going to somehow kill Orcus? At level five? I say let him try it, then smile as you describe Orcus skinning him alive. I don't have my Fiendish Codex on hand, but I'd be very surprised if he doesn't have some way to Plane Shift at-will. Seriously, let your player try it. There's no way he survives (well, unless being killed, made into an undead, and then imprisoned and flayed eternally counts :smalltongue:).

Ellrin

2013-02-18, 11:29 AM

It sounds more like he just wants to be able to summon Orcus and live to tell the tale. He may also want to summon Orcus in the middle of an enemy group, run the **** out, and hope Orcus takes care of everything.

Psyren

2013-02-18, 11:36 AM

Orcus has constant True Seeing according to FC1. And while skinning commoners would normally be beneath him, for those heinous enough to abandon their sacred pigs there can be only one response.

GutterFace

2013-02-18, 11:56 AM

Fyermind

2013-02-18, 12:05 PM

Darius Kane

2013-02-18, 12:06 PM

can anyone lend a hand with this?
I have a solution for you: Don't allow silly flaws.

I'm afb at the moment but if it is a summoning effect, killing summoned orcus doesn't do anything to Orcus other than piss him off. Calling is a different matter.
It's neither. The pig transforms into Orcus.

Greenish

2013-02-18, 12:07 PM

Bag of Holding is a non-dimensional space. The moment the pig goes in, it's no longer close enough to the commoner, and Orcus pops up.

GutterFace

2013-02-18, 12:14 PM

Zanthy1

2013-02-18, 12:15 PM

I'm afb at the moment but if it is a summoning effect, killing summoned orcus doesn't do anything to Orcus other than piss him off. Calling is a different matter. If your player wants to summon and kill orcus, let him. Hell, I'd give him experience for it too. There is an experience cap at 1 point less than enough to level him up twice. Then send the full blown orcus plus minions after him. He abandoned a sacred pig... intentionally... to kill orcus. He deserves it.

Where is this "experience cap" you speak of?

I think it could be a cool idea of you let him do this, kill orcus, level up crazy amounts, and then have orcus and his minion army come after him. (whether or not his party decides to abandon him or not is up to them.)

Ya never know, it could be fun

Greenish

2013-02-18, 12:20 PM

Where is this "experience cap" you speak of?You can only gain one level at the time. If you have enough XP to gain multiple levels, you gain one level, your XP is set to be 1 point short of levelling up again, and all the XP over that is wasted, wasted, wasted.

Darius Kane

2013-02-18, 12:21 PM

yes not allowing flaws would be good, next time.
Why not now? You're the DM. What you say is law. And any other materials outside of Core (and especially Dragon Magazines) are optional, not mandatory.

Chilingsworth

2013-02-18, 12:24 PM

can anyone lend a hand with this?

Well, with the drop the pig in an extradimensional space plan...

It could work... temporarily.

Basically,

Pig is dropped in the BoH, bag is closed, pig transforms into Orcus inside the bag.

IF the extradimensional space is large enough to hold Orcus, he has to planeshift out. (If it isn't then the bag bursts when the pig turns into Orcus, and the character immediately gets skinned.)

Planeshift is an imprecise method of travel, so the probability of him arriving near the PCs is effectively nil.

Since he wasn't the pig before it transformed, he doesn't know where, exactly the PCs are to use his greater teleport ability.

Orcus then:
a. Decides, hey I'm on the Prime Material plane with noone controling me! Time to munch on some mortals! (Or worse, start trying to corrupt the place)

OR

b. Does that for awhile (until he's full, or his plans are sufficently under way that he can turn his attention to the PC's.) Then, he identifies the person responsible for the affront of his being here, and his/her location. He then uses his greater teleport ability to visit said PC. Not long afterwards (or more likely, very, very long afterwards :smallamused:) Orcus has raw materials for a new pair of PC-skin shoes, or gloves, or a handbag.

GutterFace

2013-02-18, 12:25 PM

Why not now? You're the DM. What you say is law. And any other materials outside of Core (and especially Dragon Magazines) are optional, not mandatory.

well next time i wont allow it. this time i will...i want to see this guy hunted by gods and demons until the end of the campaign. he wants shenanigans i will write some extra nonsense into the storyline for him :smallbiggrin:

Chilingsworth

2013-02-18, 12:32 PM

well next time i wont allow it. this time i will...i want to see this guy hunted by gods and demons until the end of the campaign. he wants shenanigans i will write some extra nonsense into the storyline for him :smallbiggrin:

In that case, let him release Orcus onto the material plane. Then have him watch as parts of the world (idealy, parts that he at least kinda cares about) start suffering. Meanwhile, have the full forces of Law come down on him for giving a demon lord direct access to the Prime.

For more and better ideas on things to do with this plotline, may I suggest afrokuma's Planar Questions thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=265884)?

GutterFace

2013-02-18, 12:34 PM

AHAHAHA i love that idea. love it!

this is going to turn into a lot of nonsense. im digging it.

Certified

2013-02-18, 12:45 PM

In that case, let him release Orcus onto the material plane. Then have him watch as parts of the world (idealy, parts that he at least kinda cares about) start suffering. Meanwhile, have the full forces of Law come down on him for giving a demon lord direct access to the Prime.

For more and better ideas on things to do with this plotline, may I suggest afrokuma's Planar Questions thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=265884)?

Could have him flayed then kept alive by Orcus to watch, force him to suffer from innumerable forms of infections. Then once he's seen everything he cares for destroyed, wiping out the food stock of the survivors have him turned into a pig and cast down into their refuge.

Urpriest

2013-02-18, 01:07 PM

yes not allowing flaws would be good, next time. also interesting the wording of the Flaw is odd...

what if he kill's the pig, and eats it but keeps the bones. would that still qualify as him carrying the pig?

First, on the bag of holding question, Plane Shift is irrelevant since the bag isn't on a different plane, but anyway Orcus can just rip the opening open from the inside.

In terms of eating the pig, the RAW answer would probably be that as soon as he kills the pig he isn't carrying it anymore. The funny/horrifying answer is that it works until he excretes the eaten part of the pig, so Orcus appears behind him the next time he ****s.

GutterFace

2013-02-18, 01:19 PM

First, on the bag of holding question, Plane Shift is irrelevant since the bag isn't on a different plane, but anyway Orcus can just rip the opening open from the inside.

In terms of eating the pig, the RAW answer would probably be that as soon as he kills the pig he isn't carrying it anymore. The funny/horrifying answer is that it works until he excretes the eaten part of the pig, so Orcus appears behind him the next time he ****s.

doesn't tearing or piercing a bag of holding destroy the bag and its contents?

ahahaha ah i always knew pooping would kill a character, :)

Chilingsworth

2013-02-18, 01:27 PM

doesn't tearing or piercing a bag of holding destroy the bag and its contents?

ahahaha ah i always knew pooping would kill a character, :)

But... I thought nobody pooped (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NobodyPoops) in D&D. :smalltongue:

Urpriest

2013-02-18, 01:32 PM

doesn't tearing or piercing a bag of holding destroy the bag and its contents?

True. That said, a more important point is that the bag of holding almost certainly doesn't open wide enough to fit the pig in in the first place.

GutterFace

2013-02-18, 01:34 PM

True. That said, a more important point is that the bag of holding almost certainly doesn't open wide enough to fit the pig in in the first place.

the pigs size it strength dependent ahahaha. so it could be small enough to fit.

in theory.

Larkas

2013-02-18, 01:55 PM

yes not allowing flaws would be good, next time. also interesting the wording of the Flaw is odd...

You can allow flaws, just don't allow flaws that were made for an April Fool's Joke edition of Dragon Magazine! :smalleek:

Shining Wrath

2013-02-18, 03:09 PM

more nonsense.

the PC wants to put the pig in a bag of holding, take a 5 foot step away from the bag; therefore summoning Orcus and then set the bag on fire.

someone....sweet craziness....i dont even know where to begin.

A maximum size bag of holding (Type 4 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#bagofHolding)) can hold 1500 pounds or 250 cubic feet. The cube root of 250 is ~ 6.3. Since Orcus is at least 15' tall and is described as "grossly fat", there's no way he can fit into the bag of holding.

Either he doesn't come at all, or he destroys the bag upon entry. Either way your commoner is going to be losing his favorite epidermis.

Ellrin

2013-02-18, 04:45 PM

What if you drop the pig into a bag of holding that's barely being supported over a portable hole, so that it immediately falls into the portable hole after being jostled from the pig's entry?

Scow2

2013-02-18, 04:54 PM

A maximum size bag of holding (Type 4 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#bagofHolding)) can hold 1500 pounds or 250 cubic feet. The cube root of 250 is ~ 6.3. Since Orcus is at least 15' tall and is described as "grossly fat", there's no way he can fit into the bag of holding.

Either he doesn't come at all, or he destroys the bag upon entry. Either way your commoner is going to be losing his favorite epidermis.

If the bag's destroyed, all contents within it is as well. If Orcus bursts the bag, he's destroyed with it.

Urpriest

2013-02-18, 04:57 PM

A maximum size bag of holding (Type 4 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#bagofHolding)) can hold 1500 pounds or 250 cubic feet. The cube root of 250 is ~ 6.3. Since Orcus is at least 15' tall and is described as "grossly fat", there's no way he can fit into the bag of holding.

Either he doesn't come at all, or he destroys the bag upon entry. Either way your commoner is going to be losing his favorite epidermis.

Actually, most size-increasing magic specifies that if you assume a form too large for the space you are occupying, your growth stops. Orcus might not come at all...but it's within precedent (though not RAW) to have him appear as a mini-Orcus, who promptly assumes full size upon exiting the bag.

Khatoblepas

2013-02-18, 05:12 PM

Actually, most size-increasing magic specifies that if you assume a form too large for the space you are occupying, your growth stops. Orcus might not come at all...but it's within precedent (though not RAW) to have him appear as a mini-Orcus, who promptly assumes full size upon exiting the bag.

Does it ever say your growth resumes if you are able to? Or would be remain a mini Orcus until he is unsummoned? Having a mini-Orcus harrassing him would be pretty cool.

Surely there must be another way to exploit Pig Bond. What about a Hulking Hurler/Warhulk with the prestige class in ToB that gives all weapons returning? Having a returning pig projectile would be pretty neat, and it would scale with your strength. (Cancer Mage). Or have a Dvati with Pig Bond. Would there be two pigs, or one? The rules specify a pig.

What if you have a Strength of --? Would the pig be ethereal and incorporeal too?

Chilingsworth

2013-02-18, 05:18 PM

Now we're throwing a chibi Orcus into the mix? :smallbiggrin:

Zanthy1

2013-02-18, 07:17 PM

You can only gain one level at the time. If you have enough XP to gain multiple levels, you gain one level, your XP is set to be 1 point short of levelling up again, and all the XP over that is wasted, wasted, wasted.

But where does it say this?

Phelix-Mu

2013-02-18, 07:54 PM

You could even have Orcus not be particularly mad...at first. I mean, after all, the Prime is like Spring Vacation for a demon lord. All these delicious humanoids just waltzing around, carefree, innocent....

*brrr* Some terrible images of Orcus at a kegger. Ooh, bikinis and demon lords. Someone get me a Polaroid.:smallyuk:

Anyway, so Orcus might not kill the guy that brought him, until much later. After all, the cries of humanoids filled with eternal regret and suffering are much sweeter than the cries of the ignorant and arrogant, which are, frankly, boring.

First, fill the character with the full knowledge of the lack of wisdom which inspired this course of action. Visit him nightly with dreams of Orcus' daily exploits (some censorship required, depending on age of the players). Give the character's mother the Lichloved feat. A cult of Orcus, led by an aspect/avatar/pigatar of Orcus himself, can animate entire town graveyards, Orcus himself is capable of calling all manner of additional demons, and once he has some succubi or other Fiends of Corruption (honestly, look up this PrC for fiends in the back of Fiend Folio...role play gold, and an awesome pic to boot), then he's got the keys to the kingdom. After all, why slaughter all these humanoids when you can corrupt them, have them willingly become undead or so corrupt that their souls are going to Orcus anyway.

Anyway, to sum up, throw some Vile Darkness into the campaign. I believe that Orcus could probably pull some wish or w/e sketchiness to achieve things that wouldn't be possible with normal spells, like flawless escape from the bag of holding to a precise place on the Prime (next to the PC is nice, but let's be more creative...how about in the crypt beneath the Cathedral of Pelor or the like...hehe). Normal people have to worry about what big wishes bring, but, hey, it's Orcus; he likes this kind of spin the bottle.

GutterFace

2013-02-18, 09:55 PM

i love how this has gone off the rails. i love this forum and i love all the insane D&D conversations. best of all i love coming home and reading though all the posts i missed.

made my night.

Phelix-Mu

2013-02-18, 10:12 PM

I was just getting warmed up, too.

In the last campaign I ran, I had a plot-related Zuggtmoy encounter set up for some of the CN characters, around level 12, an attempt by minions of darkness to tempt vulnerable souls with promise of power, etc. One of the PCs allowed Zuggtmoy to do a very vague surgical procedure on him, and she even specified that she'd need to knock him out for a full day to do it.... An unwise thing to allow a demon princess to do. He got some benefits, but she got an unwilling experimental subject (though the experiment didn't harm him, but advanced her interests substantially). In an unrelated development, this character went on to sleep with a powerful female fey noble, resulting in unintended plot kitty, since Zuggtmoy had of course tinkered with his reproductive abilities.

The other PC chose to accept a boon AND slept with a shapeshifted marilith minion of Zuggtmoy. Around 8 levels later, the PC discovered there was a half-fiend baby with his name on it.

I love playing with the law of unintended consequences. The amusing thing is, it works against my plans almost as much as it works against those of the players and their characters.

tyckspoon

2013-02-18, 11:09 PM

Anyway, to sum up, throw some Vile Darkness into the campaign. I believe that Orcus could probably pull some wish or w/e sketchiness to achieve things that wouldn't be possible with normal spells, like flawless escape from the bag of holding to a precise place on the Prime (next to the PC is nice, but let's be more creative...how about in the crypt beneath the Cathedral of Pelor or the like...hehe). Normal people have to worry about what big wishes bring, but, hey, it's Orcus; he likes this kind of spin the bottle.

Unstoppable perfectly accurate travel from anywhere *to* anywhere is actually one of the explicit safe things Wish can do. It's the most powerful safe-list option, IMO, since it means that no matter how you try to protect yourself, something with access to Wish can break into your sanctuary.. and conversely, anything that has the capacity to Wish is near-impossible to contain without removing that ability first.

Phelix-Mu

2013-02-18, 11:31 PM

Unstoppable perfectly accurate travel from anywhere *to* anywhere is actually one of the explicit safe things Wish can do. It's the most powerful safe-list option, IMO, since it means that no matter how you try to protect yourself, something with access to Wish can break into your sanctuary.. and conversely, anything that has the capacity to Wish is near-impossible to contain without removing that ability first.

Well, goodness me. Thank you for reminding me of this. I guess it's not a cheap option for those without an SLA wish, but still, can definitely be worth it if the target is right.:smallwink:

By the way, I just wanted to put a shout out there. There are multiple versions of Orcus out there, and, IMHO, many of them aren't up to snuff. The avatar-ish thing in BoVD isn't bad, and it may have been superceded by Fiendish Codex I, but they hardly are up to snuff. In particular, they fail to take advantage of the near limitless resources that Orcus has, and has had, access to over countless millennia. Imagine the all the power and malice a wizard can summon up, then square it, put it into the being of a demonic monstrosity, then stack its power on top of itself over century after century of power mongering and self-optimization.

Even if we take a little off the top due to demonic chaotic inefficiency and vying with other demon lords, Orcus should still be the creme de la creme of bad^%#, only overshadowed by the gods themselves.

Alienist

2013-02-19, 08:49 AM

And while skinning commoners would normally be beneath him, for those heinous enough to abandon their sacred pigs there can be only one response.

Everyone has to have a hobby. It could have been worse, it could have been macramé.

Shining Wrath

2013-02-19, 09:11 AM

I like the idea of the mini-Orcus.

The idea of some wretched commoner being able to destroy Orcus with a pig and a bag of holding? You can just see the entire good-aligned pantheon smacking Their foreheads and exclaiming "Why didst We not think of this trick in our Divine Wisdom?". In other words, we may not know how this stunt will fail, but it is 100% guaranteed to not result in the death of Orcus, else it would have been done.

Now ... suppose this trick destroys a physical avatar of Orcus, but not the essence thereof. And suppose that being torn apart as a bag of holding bursts asunder with you inside it is less than perfectly pleasant.

What you have now is a Demon Prince whose main goal in life is having a certain commoner brought alive before his throne so that several years of amusement may commence. It could result in an interesting plot twist or three, but sooner or later, Orcus wins.

Unless the whole point of the campaign is one improbable escape after another, until the party reaches a level where they travel to the infernal reals and defeat Orcus. That would be ... epic.

Zanthy1

2013-02-19, 09:30 AM

Larkas

2013-02-19, 09:31 AM

Vote Orcus for "Vestige created by a commoner"? :smalltongue:

Ellrin

2013-02-19, 10:34 AM

Vote Orcus for "Vestige created by a commoner"? :smalltongue:

And then Orcus recombined with Tenebrous, ripping the void asunder and raining undeath across the planes.

Zubrowka74

2013-02-19, 12:09 PM

If you still care about the skinning, it gives de flaw "Corpse" from the same article. :smalltongue:

Phelix-Mu

2013-02-19, 12:53 PM

An old, old adventure called "The Throne of Bloodstone" detailed a group of adventurers that traveled to the Abyss with the aim of killing Orcus. At least I think that's what it was about. It was a legendary thing even when I started playing back in the early 90s.

While that material is slightly out of date, there might be some useful source material in there, if you can figure out how to lay hands on it.

Also, keep in mind that, if the player characters end up fighting Orcus and his minions often, not only will they draw the attention of celestial beings of power, but they will also get noticed by the other demon princes that are the main rivals for dominion over the biggest slice of the Abyss. Graz'zt (sp...) and Demogorgon are probably the most notable rivals, though Pazuzu might stick his head into the plot just for amusement and to offer another route to corrupting power to mortals that find themselves in a tough spot (as targets of Orcus' anger are likely to find themselves).:smallsmile:

hewhosaysfish

2013-02-19, 02:12 PM

I'm afb at the moment but if it is a summoning effect, killing summoned orcus doesn't do anything to Orcus other than piss him off. Calling is a different matter.

It's neither. The pig transforms into Orcus.

So what happens to the original Orcus? If he doesn't disappear (and there's nothing to suggest he should) are there now two Orcuses?

Zubrowka74

2013-02-19, 03:38 PM

So what happens to the original Orcus? If he doesn't disappear (and there's nothing to suggest he should) are there now two Orcuses?

It's an aspect of Orcus.

Phelix-Mu

2013-02-19, 03:42 PM

Wait, only an aspect??!!

Aw, shoot. That's not nearly half the fun.:smallbiggrin:

I was at least hoping for an avatar.

Chilingsworth

2013-02-19, 04:41 PM

Wait, only an aspect??!!

Aw, shoot. That's not nearly half the fun.:smallbiggrin:

I was at least hoping for an avatar.

Well, the version of Orcus presented in the Feindish Codex I is identified as an aspect (though the book has suggestions for upgrading it to the real thing.) It's much stronger than the aspect in the Miniatures Handbook. (something like CR 20+ vs CR ~10, iirc.)

Phelix-Mu

2013-02-19, 04:53 PM

Hmm, not remembering the source exactly, but I think there was some kind of article on Orcus by a person/group named dicefreaks. Now, that was the kind of thing that Orcus should evoke.:smallbiggrin:

CR10 aspects are hardly fit for combat purposes. I usually use those only for impressing low-level characters or sending particularly important messages/blessings to followers.