(PF) Adventure Path DCs

[Deathkeeper]

So I'm currently GM-ing a game of Carrion Crown. I really like it as a whole, but one thing really bothers me- the skill DCs. At level 1, the PCs are expected to make skill DCs of 25 and over on a fairly regular basis. While some of these are aided or are given plenty of time for, some seem to be fairly ridiculous. In the first dungeon, (level 2), the listed DC of pretty much every single lock is 30. Thirty. I understand they want the PCs to find the keys, but what the heck is the point of a player picking a Rogue if all the locks are unpickable? A level 2 Rogue, even with 18 Dex, will have at most a +9 or +10, making a natural 20 a requirement, since the Wizard or Fighter aren't going to be able to aid that roll (besides Guidance). Most annoying is the fact that one such room is full of cursed items meant to help the PCs fight the haunts/ghosts. Which, assuming the PCs have to wait until they find the keys, they will have already killed half of on the way to the room with the keys.
So, does anyone else consider lowering a few of these skill checks in the published materials.

[Ravenica]

level 1 bare minimum for a rogue actually playing a rogue should have a bonus of +10-12 making it doable

4-5 ability score 1 for ranks 3 for class bonus 2 for masterwork tools ... minimum
add on a trait or a single feat that bumps it up at level 1 and you can easily hit 18 if you are REALLY trying.

The DC's are high to represent quality locks, and should the rogue succeed at picking them he has accomplished something significant and it should feel as such. Low skill dc's lead to boring "oh i don't even need to roll to hit that" encounters

[stack]

People pick those locks? We just smashed all the doors. Keeps them from closing behind you, too.

[Deathkeeper]

With level 1 funds, dual weapons and decent armor ended up being too much money to afford Masterwork tools on top of it.
Needing a 15 is a pretty high roll. Needing to pour every single trait and feat you had into one skill is a pretty big assumption. Some rogues actually want to stab things.

and I guess they could try to just smash the door. They're all a bit weak, so I guess they just didn't think of it xD

[Ravenica]

With level 1 funds, dual weapons and decent armor ended up being too much money to afford Masterwork tools on top of it. Then your rogue really can't complain if they chose not to go that route can they, it was after all their choice.



Needing a 15 to pick a nearly top tier lock at level 1 is awesome
fixed that for you


Needing to pour every single trait and feat you had into one skill is a pretty big assumption. Some rogues actually want to stab things. first off, that's a stretch, with a single feat, even without a masterwork pick set, an ability score of 18, a single rank in the skill and a SINGLE feat you manage a +11 at level 1, now you proclaimed level 2 which easily bumps it another 1 to +12, while needing an 18 is by no means EASY it is both doable and a CHALLENGE as it was meant to be. Not to mention the fact that skill focus is a feat with greater returns at higher levels (at level 10 assuming no further undue investment, and even a mentally deficient rogue should have masterwork tools by this time you are looking at a minimum bonus of 25=4 base ability mod+10 ranks+3 class skill+6 skill focus+2 tools)


Long and short of it, the DC's are not unbeatable. If your party didn't optimise for beating locks they CAN still beat them. Are you going to lower AC's if your meatshield suddenly can hit anything because he chooses to use tables as weapons instead of actual weapons. Or drop SR because your wizard starts taking monk levels because "hey punching things with touch spells held looks COOL!"*.

You aren't doing them any favours babying them. Throw them the challenge and let them find ways to overcome them. They probably want to play not cuddle.




*One of my currently players is doing this... it does look cool but yeah he is the weakest party member playing the highest tier class...

[Deathkeeper]

I'm not saying that they should be able to open a top tier lock at level one. I'm saying that there should be at least one door in the campaign that is not top tier. When I have four first time players, they'd like to think that when they sign up to play a rogue, they get a rogue, and don't get screwed because they took TWF instead of skill focus.
Not to mention that in the campaign as written the PCs get almost no extra money between levels 1 and 2, and the loot they did get is too important to sell, so they are completely broke (like the most wealthy person has 27 gold). Even with me adding small side events to give them extra items.
And lastly, they're all first time players (to PF at least). And telling a first time player, "Sorry, but you didn't optimise for one skill, no loot for you" is not a very good way to keep them coming. Especially when the quest NPC explicitly told them to go to that room to get tools.

[Ravenica]

new players have to learn somehow, can they hit the lock dc on a take 20? If the answer is yes then there is no reason to lower it. If the answer is no, throw them a circumstance bonus as a one time deal because they knew the door was there and the npc clued them in about the vagaries of that specific lock.

Carrion crown's DC's are pretty reasonable and yes new players will make dumb mistakes but if you simply make everything doable without effort then you will be stuck with players who never improve and pretty much ho-hum every skill test. Given the minimums you've established your level 2 rogue CAN open the lock, give him time to do so on the plot necessary door, then, when he want's to do it again, change it up a little, minor encounter rolls past, let them steam roll it but at the same time establish the paranoia that carrion crown needs by never giving them quite the alone time they need to do EVERYTHING slow and steady.

Or let them come up with some other answer. There are some really creative answers for nearly all the encounters in that entire path.

[Sayt]

My party found themselves without a dedicated disable devicer (Only had an Alchemist.)

They brought a battering ram. Mutagen and the +2 from assist meant the alchemist was able to take the door off it's hinges, with the Paladin's help.

[Deathkeeper]

new players have to learn somehow, can they hit the lock dc on a take 20? If the answer is yes then there is no reason to lower it. If the answer is no, throw them a circumstance bonus as a one time deal because they knew the door was there and the npc clued them in about the vagaries of that specific lock.

Carrion crown's DC's are pretty reasonable and yes new players will make dumb mistakes but if you simply make everything doable without effort then you will be stuck with players who never improve and pretty much ho-hum every skill test. Given the minimums you've established your level 2 rogue CAN open the lock, give him time to do so on the plot necessary door, then, when he want's to do it again, change it up a little, minor encounter rolls past, let them steam roll it but at the same time establish the paranoia that carrion crown needs by never giving them quite the alone time they need to do EVERYTHING slow and steady.

Well, he only has 16 Dex, which means his bonus is only a +8 I believe. I only used 18 as an example in the OP because it's the highest Dex I've heard of in a level 1 character. If the party pooled all their money and sold the medicine from the Infirmary he could afford the Masterwork Tools, he might be able to reach the +10 in that case, but I don't expect them to think of that unless I point out that they exist.
And I might just have a circumstantial bonus of +2 for this one. I would never lower all of them, but I kinda wanted to lower this one specifically because it's the fourth DD check they've seen and the fourth that he can't even attempt, and he's starting to get frustrated that his character is "useless" in the most famous skill of the class.
Also, is Take 20 even an option here? I thought DD was one of the checks that don't allow it since there are consequences for failing badly.
I've gone through the rest of the books and I'm inclined to agree that the DCs are mostly fair, it's just the fact that all the DD's are (in this case impossibly) high in the first one that really struck me. Although I can't tell you how many times they failed the Knowledge checks to research the criminals. It was quite funny.

[Ravenica]

Well, he only has 16 Dex, which means his bonus is only a +8 I believe. I only used 18 as an example in the OP because it's the highest Dex I've heard of in a level 1 character. If the party pooled all their money and sold the medicine from the Infirmary he could afford the Masterwork Tools, he might be able to reach the +10 in that case, but I don't expect them to think of that unless I point out that they exist.
And I might just have a circumstantial bonus of +2 for this one. I would never lower all of them, but I kinda wanted to lower this one specifically because it's the fourth DD check they've seen and the fourth that he can't even attempt, and he's starting to get frustrated that his character is "useless" in the most famous skill of the class.
Also, is Take 20 even an option here? I thought DD was one of the checks that don't allow it since there are consequences for failing badly.
I've gone through the rest of the books and I'm inclined to agree that the DCs are mostly fair, it's just the fact that all the DD's are (in this case impossibly) high in the first one that really struck me. Although I can't tell you how many times they failed the Knowledge checks to research the criminals. It was quite funny.

lol as long as they learned of the splatter man thats all that counts XD

the only time DD can't take 20 is generally disabling traps, there's no negative effect specified for failing a to unlock a lock.

Sounds like you got stuck with a substandard lockpicker which happens from time to time, I generally give them a chance to "study lock" as a full hour to grant them the circumstance bonus necessary to open it, but of course that doesn't work when something comes to haunt them muahaha

[Deathkeeper]

Yeah, the name was odd enough (They remember it because they thought I said "Spider Man" the first time) that they looked him up first.
For the most part, they're pretty good besides their unoptimized characters. The cleric and Ranger are logical, the spellcaster seems intelligent, and the Rogue don't overstep the bounds of his mental stats. The only really bad thing was that they (finally) got info about the Piper on the same day they had the first Stirge fight and somehow didn't make the connection.
On the other hand, the impending undead apocalypse has freaked them out enough that they're seriously rushing to clear this before people die. I think they might have given up their one-shot dungeon plans when the animated objects with more hp than Gibs started hitting for d6's, though. Silly but funny, those animated jackets.
And you're right, upon looking it up, the srd just says "upon failing by more than 5, something goes wrong." But that seems to only address traps and sabotage.

[sonofzeal]

Reasonable modifiers for a level 1 would have to be....

+2/+3 ability score, +1 rank, +3 class skill bonus = +6/7. DC 15 is thus a reasonable DC.


By level two, they get another rank, and may have a masterwork tool... but it's by no means guaranteed since they may not even have had a chance to shop, and may have had other priorities.

+2/+3 ability score, +2 rank, +3 class skill bonus, (+2 tool) = +7/10. DC 20 is starting to look pretty reasonable.



...but DC 25, and mess something up permanently if you fail by 5 or more? Yeah, that's a losing game for anything they haven't been trying to pump out the wazoo.

[CTrees]

With level 1 funds, dual weapons and decent armor ended up being too much money to afford Masterwork tools on top of it.
Needing a 15 is a pretty high roll. Needing to pour every single trait and feat you had into one skill is a pretty big assumption. Some rogues actually want to stab things.

A level one rogue should not be dual wielding. At least not if he expects to stab anything. Those to-hit penalties, lack of feats, and whopping +0 BAB...

[Chained Birds]

Besides the Locks (Which have always had that DC thus requiring either some focus to disarm them at low levels of finding a key), what other things have high DCs for this adventure that you are having trouble with? :smallconfused:

[Deathkeeper]

A level one rogue should not be dual wielding. At least not if he expects to stab anything. Those to-hit penalties, lack of feats, and whopping +0 BAB...

I told him that, but it's what he wanted to do, and I promised I wouldn't make anyone's characters for them.

Besides the Locks (Which have always had that DC thus requiring either some focus to disarm them at low levels of finding a key), what other things have high DCs for this adventure that you are having trouble with? :smallconfused:

Truth be told, it's mostly the DD. I do think the Knowledge checks are a little high (25 for plenty of them) for non-wizard characters, but there is a circumstance bonus from using the libraries, and it's pretty much all they have to do for a week in-game, anyway. The rest aren't so bad because of Aid Another. 28 for Survival is a bit silly, but assuming you're getting +6 from the rest of the party helping out a Ranger should be fine.

[Jane_Smith]

If i remember correctly, the prison that adventure takes place in is old and impoverished, a massive oil fire caused an inferno in it for several days, and moisture and the elements have basically been left rampant within its halls now for many years. The idea behind the DC 30 locks is that it "WAS" a prison, but I think you failed to take into account almost every lock in the place is likely so rusted over a firm kick can break them in half. Maybe that is why the disable device DC is 30 but the strength checks are like 15? Explain to the rogue the locks are rusted over to the point the mechanisms are almost impossible to turn, and just have him aid another the warrior of the group into breaking the doors open. This is just a classic example of "just because your level 1 does not mean everyone else and there dogs, horses, locks, goons, and dungeons cater to your level", a prison is designed to punish lockpicking sanity.

You can also have the casters use ray of frost on the locks, according to the Frostburn book (dunno if this translates to pathfinder), cold effects give metal objects the fragile condition, lowering there hardness and making them more easy to sunder, break, or shatter, OR use grease on the doors and locks (Sadly they can't specific 'only' the lock unless your fine with them being a bit more tidy then the spell allows) to give a large circumstance bonus on unlocking them from loosening up the lock mechanisms.

[CTrees]

If i remember correctly, the prison that adventure takes place in is old and impoverished, a massive oil fire caused an inferno in it for several days, and moisture and the elements have basically been left rampant within its halls now for many years. The idea behind the DC 30 locks is that it "WAS" a prison, but I think you failed to take into account almost every lock in the place is likely so rusted over a firm kick can break them in half. Maybe that is why the disable device DC is 30 but the strength checks are like 15? Explain to the rogue the locks are rusted over to the point the mechanisms are almost impossible to turn, and just have him aid another the warrior of the group into breaking the doors open. This is just a classic example of "just because your level 1 does not mean everyone else and there dogs, horses, locks, goons, and dungeons cater to your level", a prison is designed to punish lockpicking sanity.

I'm not familiar with the adventure, but that woule make a ton of sense. Lockpicking is one of those skills I decided to learn in real life, and old, rough locks in bad condition are a lot harder for me to pick than new and/or well-maintained locks of the same quality.

[Slipperychicken]

I'm surprised they're picking locks at all, instead of bashing the doors down and stealing the locking mechanisms if possible. A DC 30 lock is 80 gold, which is good money for level 2. Also makes you feel like a true murder-hobo.

If they really felt like it, they could even Acid Splash the hinges till the door came down.

[Ailowynn]

That is one problem with PF, especially at lower levels. Characters focused in skills can easily have +12 or above, but in skills you aren't specialized in you'll have much lower. I think the APs assume that a character in the party specializes in one of those skills, and sets the DC accordingly

But keep in mind: the GM can change stuff. Don't like it? Knock a couple points off the DC. Don't like the adventure in general? Write your own.

[Deathkeeper]

Well, the break DCs are all 28 on the metal doors so it isn't that easy, although they only have hardness 10 so it wouldn't be that hard to smash with enough Sunders, but so far only one or two they've found is a door. Two other locks include a book-lock and a safe, and they made the (entirely correct) assumption that the value of the contents may be decreased if they start smashing.

[Suddo]

I'm surprised they're picking locks at all, instead of bashing the doors down and stealing the locking mechanisms if possible. A DC 30 lock is 80 gold, which is good money for level 2. Also makes you feel like a true murder-hobo.

If they really felt like it, they could even Acid Splash the hinges till the door came down.

This is basically what I would consider. There is a door it has a lock, A) Pick Lock, B) Smash Door. Neither disallows you from doing the other. Your players aren't being creative enough.
DDs are always one of those things you have to specialize in I mean Traps are always hard for that reason a CR 1 trap usually has a DC of 20 (both in spot and disable) and you can't take 20s on those meaning your rogue would have to roll above average to do any of them. This is an old 3.5 standard too. DD is something you have to specialize into a little bit to get the really good stuff.