A Couple Questions About the Buckler

[Sandwich8080]

Greetings, GitP! So one of my players has me absolutely stumped with these 2 questions about the buckler. I'm sure I've overlooked it somewhere, but here they are:

1. It says if you use 2 one handed weapons, you lose the buckler bonus every time you attack with your off-hand. Does the same apply if you use a 2 handed weapon? And where would a bow or crossbow fit in this ruling?

2. I've noticed there is no "Buckler Proficiency". Does it fall under "light shields"? Or do you have to have proficiency with all shields to be proficient with a buckler?

Thanks in advance!

[Greenish]

1. Yes. Bows and crossbows (aside from hand crossbow) are two-handed weapons (crossbows can be fired one-handed).

2. Yes, no, yes, though this is something of an academic question, given that MW buckler has no ACP, and thus no penalty for the user not being proficient.

[Duke of Urrel]

I have something to add to what Greenish said.

Wearing a buckler also imposes a 5% chance of Arcane Spell Failure, which matters if you're a wizard or a sorcerer. (Bards and some other arcane spellcasters waive the Arcane Spell Failure chance when using light shields, including bucklers, I should think.) A buckler of masterwork quality still imposes the ACF chance, but a buckler made out of mithral doesn't. So if you're a wizard or a sorcerer, you're looking at an extra expense of 1,000 gold pieces rather than only 150.

[DonDuckie]

1. Yes. Bows and crossbows (aside from hand crossbow) are two-handed weapons (crossbows can be fired one-handed).

2. Yes, no, yes, though this is something of an academic question, given that MW buckler has no ACP, and thus no penalty for the user not being proficient.

There is no armor check penalty, the penalty to attack rolls for using a weapon with your buckler hand isn't an armor check penalty and is never reduced.

[Greenish]

There is no armor check penalty, the penalty to attack rolls for using a weapon with your buckler hand isn't an armor check penalty and is never reduced.There is armor check penalty to bucklers. It's -1. It applies to attack rolls and on all Strength-based and Dexterity-based ability and skill checks (including initiative checks) if you're not proficient with the buckler.

This is a separate thing not related to using a weapon in your buckler arm, but very related to the proficiency (or the lack of) with buckler.

[Edit]: Do note the numbering on both the original post and my reply. They're not there just for the show.

[Duke of Urrel]

I think I may share with DonDuckie the desire to be thorough, as well as the eagerness to share any knowledge I happen to have.

Upon reflection, both my last posting and DonDuckie's may have been somewhat off-topic, because neither the Arcane Spell Failure chance nor the –1 attack penalty has anything to do with whether you are proficient with a buckler or not.

It may also be that DonDuckie simply missed the letters 'MW' in Greenish's first posting. I confess that I did, in fact, the first time I read it.

At any rate, between the three of us, I think we've just about covered all the relevant rules for bucklers!

[DonDuckie]

There is armor check penalty to bucklers. It's -1. It applies to attack rolls and on all Strength-based and Dexterity-based ability and skill checks (including initiative checks) if you're not proficient with the buckler.

This is a separate thing not related to using a weapon in your buckler arm, but very related to the proficiency (or the lack of) with buckler.

[Edit]: Do note the numbering on both the original post and my reply. They're not there just for the show.

I was unclear. I didn't mean bucklers don't have ACP, I meant the penalty to wielding a weapon with your buckler hand isn't an ACP and is not reduced by the buckler being of masterwork quality. I mentioned this because I have heard many claim mwk bucklers don't give a penalty to attacks made using the buckler hand.

I don't know what I'm supposed to note about the numbering(I'm assuming it's the 1. and 2. listing)

[Greenish]

I don't know what I'm supposed to note about the numbering(I'm assuming it's the 1. and 2. listing)The number 2 in my posts symbolizes the fact that I'm responding to the OP's question number 2, which is about shield proficiency, not about the penalty for attacking with the buckler arm.

[DonDuckie]

The number 2 in my posts symbolizes the fact that I'm responding to the OP's question number 2, which is about shield proficiency, not about the penalty for attacking with the buckler arm.


2. Yes, no, yes, though this is something of an academic question, given that MW buckler has no ACP, and thus no penalty for the user not being proficient.

I felt the underlined portion was misleading, and I tried to clarify.

[Sandwich8080]

For the sake of being curious, if someone isn't proficient in bucklers, what feat would they take to become proficient? Shield Proficiency?

[Answerer]

As far as proficiency, ignoring ASF, and so on are concerned, there are only two categories of shields: Shields, and Tower Exotic Shields (most books refer to the second category as Tower Shields since it is the only member of the group outside of Races of Stone). There is a reason why class proficiencies say "proficient with shields (except tower shields)" – there is no such thing as "light shield proficiency" or "heavy shield proficiency" separate from one another.

Actually, outside of Races of Stone, Shields are treated as a whole as one category, with Tower Shields explicitly listed as an exception in every case where the designers wanted to leave it out. Races of Stone added a few more "Exotic Shields" that are basically excluded every time Tower Shields are, making it a bit broader as a category.

But yeah, it's not actually possible to be proficient with bucklers, light shields, or heavy shields without being proficient in all of them, unless you have a class that explicitly excluding some of them. To the best of my knowledge, no such exception exists anywhere in 3.5. If a class says it ignores ASF with shields, that means all shields. If it says shields (except Tower Shields), then that means all non-Exotic shields. Note that most classes that ignore ASF in light armor (Bards, Warlocks, Spellthieves, off the top of my head) do not ignore ASF with shields.

[DonDuckie]

For the sake of being curious, if someone isn't proficient in bucklers, what feat would they take to become proficient? Shield Proficiency?

Yes. Shield Proficiency allows you to wield bucklers, light shields and heavy shield(including spiked versions of light and heavy shields) without having its armor check penalty apply to your attack rolls.

Tower shields require their own feat.

Shield bashes are listed as martial weapons, so you need the martial weapon proficiency feat for these.

[Sandwich8080]

Well, I guess I'm still a little stumped :smalleek:

If your class says you are only proficient with light shields, does that count bucklers? It's possible that my question has already been answered, but I didn't catch it reading through the posts.

[Greenish]

I felt the underlined portion was misleading, and I tried to clarify.There is no penalty for not being proficient. :smalltongue:


Well, I guess I'm still a little stumped :smalleek:

If your class says you are only proficient with light shields, does that count bucklers? It's possible that my question has already been answered, but I didn't catch it reading through the posts.If you have a class that's only proficient with light shields, you're not proficient with buckler, and what class is that anyway?

[Sandwich8080]

I'm away from the books, but the 2 players who approached me with the questions play a Warmage and a Cleric. I'm pretty sure the Warmage doesn't get a ASF with light shields, and the Cleric wanted to use a 2 hander.

[Greenish]

I'm away from the books, but the 2 players who approached me with the questions play a Warmage and a Cleric. I'm pretty sure the Warmage doesn't get a ASF with light shields, and the Cleric wanted to use a 2 hander.Huh, warmage is indeed proficient with just light shields. Well, no buckler for him, unless he wants to eat the penalties or can afford MW.

The cleric can use a two-hander with a buckler, but takes the attack penalty, and doesn't benefit from the shield AC on the rounds he attacks. Imp. Buckler Defense would fix the latter.

[Sandwich8080]

Would a crossbow user get the shield bonus from a buckler when he reloads? It says it requires both hands, so I'd initially say no.

[Telonius]

... and, the Warmage picture pretty clearly shows him with a spear and a buckler in the same arm. Rank that one next to Jozan casting Symbol of Pain. :smallsigh:

https://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/cc20050906a_85425_med.jpg

[Greenish]

Would a crossbow user get the shield bonus from a buckler when he reloads? It says it requires both hands, so I'd initially say no.You lose the bonus if you "use" the weapon. Whether reloading is using the weapon is probably up to the DM, but given that neither bucklers or crossbows are exactly overpowered…


... and, the Warmage picture pretty clearly shows him with a spear and a buckler in the same arm. Rank that one next to Jozan casting Symbol of Pain. :smallsigh:Also, Abjurant Champion wears a chain shirt and a holds a shield.

[Answerer]

Wow, chalk one up for authorial stupidity.

Proficient in Light Shields? Oh goody. That is an utterly meaningless statement, seeing as there doesn't exist any item by that name, nor is there any defined category of things by that name. There are two items that have that as a part of their name, but they are not a separate category known by the shared portion of their name.

Basically, Complete Arcane is wrong. The claim that Warmages are proficient only in light shields is meaningless and incorrectly formed. Appeal to your DM for some sensibility.

[Duke of Urrel]

Wow, chalk one up for authorial stupidity.

Proficient in Light Shields? Oh goody. That is an utterly meaningless statement, seeing as there doesn't exist any item by that name, nor is there any defined category of things by that name. There are two items that have that as a part of their name, but they are not a separate category known by the shared portion of their name.

Basically, Complete Arcane is wrong. The claim that Warmages are proficient only in light shields is meaningless and incorrectly formed. Appeal to your DM for some sensibility.

I believe this frees us all to apply a little logic and common sense. And my commonsensical logic works like this:

1. A light steel shield weighs six pounds and counts as a light shield.

2. A buckler is also a shield and also made of steel, but weighs only five pounds.

3. So it should follow that a buckler counts as a light shield, too.

[Gwendol]

Just give the warmage shield proficiency and carry on. It's not going to break any games.

[Answerer]

I believe this frees us all to apply a little logic and common sense. And my commonsensical logic works like this:

1. A light steel shield weighs six pounds and counts as a light shield.

2. A buckler is also a shield and also made of steel, but weighs only five pounds.

3. So it should follow that a buckler counts as a light shield, too.
Logic is not rules. None of what you have written is even hinted at by the rules. While I would be giving the Warmage shield proficiency and plenty more besides in my own games as a houserule, the fact remains that the author of the Warmage wrote the entry incorrectly.

[Sandwich8080]

So a nonproficient buckler user can use a MW buckler and not incur any penalties since the armor check penalty is zero. So the same would apply for a MW light wooden or steel shield? Then why bother with the buckler? The only benefit I can see it has is that it's lighter and frees up your hand. But if you don't take the extra feat it doesn't really free up that hand...

As far as houserules go, I'm just going to count a buckler as a light shield. I don't see how that would cause any problems since the Warmage is already using a light shield. The only thing that would change is that he could take 1 pound off his carrying load.

The Warmage and I have been playing 3.5 since it came out, and neither of us even realized that a MW buckler or light shield could be used by anybody (mithril in the case of arcane casters). It's amazing how you can overlook little bits of rules like that :smalltongue:

[Edenbeast]

Logic is not rules. None of what you have written is even hinted at by the rules. While I would be giving the Warmage shield proficiency and plenty more besides in my own games as a houserule, the fact remains that the author of the Warmage wrote the entry incorrectly.

I disagree that it's incorrect. It may be confusing though, but that's more because the description of shields in the PRB is unclear. How it is meant is that the War Mage can cast spells while still having a shield bonus. The image of the War Mage in CA illustrates this perfectly. He can cast spells with his main hand, while switching his weapon to his other hand, that since it's holding a light shield, can still hold an item:



A light shield's weight lets you carry other items in that hand, although you cannot use weapons with it.

Bucklers are by all means light shields except:


You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a –1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you lose the buckler's Armor Class bonus until your next turn. You can cast a spell with somatic components using your shield arm, but you lose the buckler's Armor Class bonus until your next turn. You can't make a shield bash with a buckler.

A Warmage could cast his spells with his shield arm and lose the AC bonus, it's not that useful, since the casting time wouldn't allow him to make additional attacks.

The Pathfinder Magus, with specific rules for being able to cast and attack during the same round, could use a mithral buckler without any proficiency penalties. You can use it as shield when you're not casting a spell, and sacrifice the bonus when you do cast a spell.