Cthulhu

[sambouchah]

Anyone have any stats for Cthulhu or any other Lovecraftian horrors? I think it would be pretty cool to encounter him or something else like it.

[hamishspence]

the D20 Call of Cthulhu book has rules for using Cthulhu and various others in a D&D game.

They're on a par with various deities from Deities & Demigods.

The minor monsters- Deep Ones and the like, require a little more conversion, but the book has the rules to convert them.

[Tanuki Tales]

It's not actually him, but it is his "children":

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/aberrations/star-spawn-of-cthulhu

[Wardog]

Anyone have any stats for Cthulhu or any other Lovecraftian horrors? I think it would be pretty cool to encounter him or something else like it.

Doesn't one RPG stat him out with the attack: "devours 1d6 players per round", or something like that?

(And in at least one version, it is players, not characters :smalleek: ).

[Slipperychicken]

1d4 investigators per round :smallbiggrin:

That's all you need, really.

[BRC]

1d4 investigators per round :smallbiggrin:

That's all you need, really.

I heard it was 1d6, did they nerf him?

[Darrin]

I heard it was 1d6, did they nerf him?

I believe in one of the older editions, it was 1d6 investigators on the first round, then 1d3 after that.

Not sure about 6th edition, but in 5th his "ATTACKS & SPECIAL EFFECTS" block says "each round 1D3 investigators are scooped up in Cthulhu's flabby claws to die hideously."

[Slipperychicken]

I heard it was 1d6, did they nerf him?

If someone makes a "Cthulhu is Underpowered in d20" rant, he shall earn my undying gratitude.

[Kazyan]

It's not actually him, but it is his "children":

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/aberrations/star-spawn-of-cthulhu

Do any monsters/classes/templates/etc. have something like Overwhelming Mind in 3.5? Sounds familiar, and I want one. Because of...reasons.

[Ubercaledor]

If someone makes a "Cthulhu is Underpowered in d20" rant, he shall earn my undying gratitude.

Pshhh... he doesn't even have a familiar.

[Tanuki Tales]

If someone makes a "Cthulhu is Underpowered in d20" rant, he shall earn my undying gratitude.

Pathfinder specifically calls him out as being incapable of having statistics because he's so powerful:


Cthulhu himself is likely as powerful compared to his spawn as the spawn themselves are to the bulk of humanity, and thus statistics for this creature are relatively meaningless.

Though I'm not sure if you meant "He's underpowered in the scheme of God Wizards and Omnificers, someone rant about it" or "Cthulhu was made too weak in d20, someone rant about it". :smallconfused:

[Scow2]

Bah... Cthulhu's not as powerful as some people seem to think he is - After all, he goes back to sleep after being hit by a boat in his first encounter.

He's an epic-level challenge, but not insurmountable. Maybe to level 1-6 characters Cthulhu's of unimaginable power - but 20-30th? He might be a bit of a threat... maybe.

[Certified]

Bah... Cthulhu's not as powerful as some people seem to think he is - After all, he goes back to sleep after being hit by a boat in his first encounter.

He's an epic-level challenge, but not insurmountable. Maybe to level 1-6 characters Cthulhu's of unimaginable power - but 20-30th? He might be a bit of a threat... maybe.

These 30th level characters... are they investigating him?

Please be aware that 1d4 Investigators die each round. There is no level restrictions, or saves.

Tasty...

[Slipperychicken]

Though I'm not sure if you meant "He's underpowered in the scheme of God Wizards and Omnificers, someone rant about it" or "Cthulhu was made too weak in d20, someone rant about it". :smallconfused:

I meant it as a joke, and didn't feel like making the text blue. I was referencing the Katanas are Underpowered in d20 meme/copypasta (http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Katanas_are_Underpowered_in_d20), and its many variants.

[Alleran]

Pathfinder specifically calls him out as being incapable of having statistics because he's so powerful:



Though I'm not sure if you meant "He's underpowered in the scheme of God Wizards and Omnificers, someone rant about it" or "Cthulhu was made too weak in d20, someone rant about it". :smallconfused:
On the other hand, Pathfinder have full-scale Mythic rules coming up sometime in the next few months. And James Jacobs recently said in his "Ask JJ" thread on the Paizo boards that Hastur is CR 29 (IIRC, but regardless of the CR, it apparently wasn't just him guessing).

[FreakyCheeseMan]

I always thought that Cthulhu (and Honey Badgers) should have an ability that made anyone who made a knowledge check about them take a will save vs. fear against the results of that knowledge check.

[The Viscount]

Ineffable Horror from Underdark pales in comparison to Cthulhu, but it's clearly inspired by him if you want a sort of approachable monster.

[Slipperychicken]

I always thought that Cthulhu (and Honey Badgers) should have an ability that made anyone who made a knowledge check about them take a will save vs. fear against the results of that knowledge check.

Ask, and you shall receive. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/campaigns/sanity.htm#forbiddenKnowledge)

[ShadowFireLance]

Someone Wanted Awesome Stats? Ask and Ye Shall get.
IA, Cthulhu!

http://dicefreaks.superforums.org/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=2616&hilit=Cthulhu#p65531

[Rhynn]

Doesn't one RPG stat him out with the attack: "devours 1d6 players per round", or something like that?

(And in at least one version, it is players, not characters :smalleek: ).

That's an odd myth - I've never had a CoC corebook that says that, and I've had some old ones. And at best, that's an exaggeration - they've always included his ability scores.

My '98 5.5 edition gives the great Cthulhu's attacks in the same format I remember from older editions: claw 100% damage 1D6+21D6, tentacle 100% damage 11D6. Stats (STR 140, etc.), armor, hit points, sanity loss, all there.

I think the meme is a silly corruption of what the "Attacks & Special Effects" section of Cthulhu's description (before his stat block) says:

"Attacks & Special Effects: each round 1D3 invetigators are scooped up..."
"... invetigators might also be attacked by Cthulhu's facial tentacles, which can grab four people per round..."

So, nope. All the Great Old Ones, Outer gods, and Elder Gods get the same kind of stat block as deep ones, ghouls, etc. in Call of Cthulhu.

Trail of Cthulhu, however, offers no stats of any kind, or even solid descriptions, about the "Titans" (good umbrella term); instead, they offer many, many variant explanations for each one, and they are excellent.

Edit: Also, contrary to what people like to repeat, just because something has stats doesn't mean you can fight and defeat it. Cthulhu puts itself back together in what amounts to combat rounds after being rammed with a steam ship; in CoC, he has regeneration to back this up. He can't be made not to regenerate. There's no reason to think he wouldn't put himself back together the same way after being hit with TNT, a missile, or a nuclear blast. Most Great Old Ones and Outer Gods are similarly semi-invulnerable (at best, they immediately flee when reduced to 0 hp, rather than die). Only magic works.

[Slipperychicken]

Only magic works.

Thankfully we're on the 3.5e subforum, where Wizards reign supreme.

Total Optimization. It's the only way to be sure.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Cthulhu was 1d4 investigators in at least the editions of Chaosim's CoC I read. It was Yog-Sothoth was 1d6.

[Rhynn]

Cthulhu was 1d4 investigators in at least the editions of Chaosim's CoC I read. It was Yog-Sothoth was 1d6.

"each combat round, Yog-Sothoth may touch one character" ... "Silver Bolt 80%, damage death in 5-yard diameter" ...

Granted, these may all have been changed between 5.5 and whatever edition you're familiar with.

I'm sorry, I can't help myself, this particular Cthulhu meme is one of my least favorites for some reason...

[Kirgoth]

All you need to do is perform the correct ritual and he will go back to sleep, fighting him is pointless. Lovecraft gods exist through the cycles of the universe, dancing around the cosmic egg, watching the big bang, messing about for billions of years causing madness and suffering, watching the big crunch when the universe contracts once again into the cosmic egg and so on and on forever. You cannot kill these things.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

All you need to do is perform the correct ritual and he will go back to sleep, fighting him is pointless. Lovecraft gods exist through the cycles of the universe, dancing around the cosmic egg, watching the big bang, messing about for billions of years causing madness and suffering, watching the big crunch when the universe contracts once again into the cosmic egg and so on and on forever. You cannot kill these things.

The Great Old Ones, yes. They're also vague as all hell. Azathoth might just be the Far Realm, like the Plane (wait is it an actual Plane?) itself is actually a being.

Cthulhu, is an actual corporeal being immortal and unkillable by humans in his own universe, but the Mythos Universe has completly mundane people with a few occaisional mages that are just borrowing the slightest measure of power from Cthulhu and his ilk and the most powerful of them are worshiping the Old Ones and many of them have bloodlines from monstrous races.

If you transfer Cthulhu to a high magic world you either need to give him a ton of powers based on only the vaguest accounts of his abilities and ignore his vulnerability to physical harm. Even in the Chaosim game he had a lot of the equivelent of DR but could take a little damage from max damage from a shotgun and enough Regen to heal the damage from ten or so such "scratches" a round. This meant a small army could kill him, even after half of them went insane upon seeing him, far from a D&D god.

[Certified]

Just a note Cthulhu is not actually a god, although it is worshiped in multiple cultures and by races of peoples. It's not just that Cthulhu is sleeping below the ocean it is trapped. I want to say that it was Robert Price that upgraded Cthulhu to full on god status giving him a Water elemental atonement. Although, why something trapped by water is itself a water god doesn't quite fit well.

One more note on Cthulhu, I want to say he's the source of dread and anxiety for the world. How's that for a D&D style Frightful Presence?

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Ya, the while elemental thing is strange and, as you said, a later author's construct. In some accounts it was meant to be a link to actual ancient religions, which doesn't really fit the feel of the Mythos. Even the little understanding cultists have of their universe makes them completely alien to any analog to a real world religion past or present.

Where's "source of all dread and anxiety" from?

[Slipperychicken]

He drives people insane... while trapped dreaming at the bottom of the ocean, on the other side of the world. The moment he wakes up, everybody's screwed.

Way I see it, if you're looking the guy in the face, you've already lost. He woke up, rose, and has already shattered the world's sanity with the act of awakening. When he rises, humanity as we know it becomes a dysfunctional babbling wreck and society is impossible.

It's like fighting the explosion which ends the world -it's too late. If you want to save people, you have to defuse the bomb before it blows. But once it's done, everything you love is already warped beyond recognition and not going to last much longer. The hero's struggle consists of preventing this terrible fate.


Side note: Does anyone else feel like Eldritch Horrors are replacing Demons, Ry'leh/the Far Realm is the new Hell, and Cthulhu is the new Devil? As though Satan stopped being scary, so we gave him a green tentacle makeover? Because that's how many storylines seem to deal with it.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

He drives people insane... while trapped dreaming at the bottom of the ocean, on the other side of the world. The moment he wakes up, everybody's screwed.

Way I see it, if you're looking the guy in the face, you've already lost. He woke up, rose, and has already shattered the world's sanity with the act of awakening. When he rises, humanity as we know it becomes a dysfunctional babbling wreck and society is impossible.


If you're talking about Cthulhu within his native fiction, then sure, pretty much. There is a question of what percentage of his power he was at when a steamship ramming him knocked him silly.

Based on mere mortals suffering shock and slowly slipping into insanity over several years and the CoC stats I'd say a Cthulhu that wasn't scaled up would probably only present a Will DC in the high 30's to suffer no ill effects. If your scaling him to the World it depends on whether you want him to be equivelent to an Elder Evil or just be a sign of an Elder Evil.


It's like fighting the explosion which ends the world -it's too late. If you want to save people, you have to defuse the bomb before it blows. But once it's done, everything you love is already warped beyond recognition and not going to last much longer. The hero's struggle consists of preventing this terrible fate.

This is a good analogy, the real threat of Cthulhu, as I understand it is as the priest/herald/harbinger that calls an Elder God.




Side note: Does anyone else feel like Eldritch Horrors are replacing Demons, Ry'leh/the Far Realm is the new Hell, and Cthulhu is the new Devil? As though Satan stopped being scary, so we gave him a green tentacle makeover? Because that's how many storylines seem to deal with it.

Yes and No. The problem with the big D and all the little D's and medium size D's is they've been humanized and over exposed. The Mythos has been getting a little of the latter recently, but is at no risk of the former and anyone that attempts to humanize the Mythos will promptly be screamed at for "doing it wrong". In fact, I'm officially giving you a minor scolding for your Mythos/Fiend analogy.

Oh and Deep Space/Eldrich Space is where most of the true horrors are and the Far Realms is basically that. R'lyeh doesn't really have a convenient place to plug into an analogy since it's a physical place on Earth kind of like Cthulhu it's relatively small potatos.

The other thing that's great about the Mythos is that the kind of people that read and enjoy it can't reason through it. Most people I know find themselves reasoning through the scenarios in horror movies deciding whether they would live or die or they're odds of making the right decision and arguing over what the right decision would have been if the story didn't reveal it.

With the Mythos there is no right answer. Well-read Intellectuals preferably with gumption are exactly the sort of people that find themselves drawn to eldrich lore which slowly drives them insane. Exactly the traits you possess, the ones that give you an edge in almost any situation become your downfall and that is truly horrifying.

[Alleran]

If you're talking about Cthulhu within his native fiction, then sure, pretty much. There is a question of what percentage of his power he was at when a steamship ramming him knocked him silly.
On the other hand, if it's the story I think you're referring to:

"Briden looked back and went mad, laughing shrilly as he kept on laughing at intervals till death found him one night in the cabin whilst Johansen was wandering deliriously."

"Knowing that the Thing could surely overtake the Alert until steam was fully up, he resolved on a desperate chance... [...] There was a bursting as of an exploding bladder, a slushy nastiness as of a cloven sunfish, a stench as of a thousand opened graves, and a sound that the chronicler could not put on paper. For an instant the ship was befouled by an acrid and blinding green cloud, and then there was only a venomous seething astern; where—God in heaven!—the scattered plasticity of that nameless sky-spawn was nebulously recombining in its hateful original form, whilst its distance widened every second as the Alert gained impetus from its mounting steam."

(Note: The story this is taken from is in the public domain, found here (http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Call_of_Cthulhu/full).)

Looking at that description, it seems very clear that Cthulhu could have just come back together and caught them, since they don't seem to think it would be possible to get away unless they were at full speed, which the end of the second quote says they still aren't. And indeed, Cthulhu is already just bringing himself back together - he wasn't anything more than very briefly delayed by coming apart and putting himself back together.

And, of course, the story goes on to say that even though they seemed to get away, they all went mad from the experience/revelation anyway, a little bit of madness that Cthulhu decided to leave them with even as they "escaped" from him. Especially the one in the first quote, who went mad from a single look at the Thing. No gradual decay, no curse, just a look at something so ontologically wrong that his mind broke from the act.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Yes, that's the exact passage I was referring to. What level would you guess those normal mortal men were if converted to D&D? If it's not terribly high we can only guess on whether it would have any effect on someone with a Will save of say +10.

Yes, Cthulhu was getting up, fast healing, etc, but he was hurt by what amounts to a siege engine. Hurt being the operative word. I would say that only two things are clear; that Cthulhu was hurt and that Cthulhu was not killed sorry three, Cthulhu was healing and a full recovery was all but assured, anything else in conjecture.

Let's not discuss what Great Tulu did or did not decide/think. We thankfully are not Privy to Q'thulu's thoughts.

[Alleran]

Hurt being the operative word. I would say that only two things are clear; that Cthulhu was hurt and that Cthulhu was not killed sorry three, Cthulhu was healing and a full recovery was all but assured, anything else in conjecture.
I don't know, it doesn't seem - to me - as if he was really even hurt in that passage. It certainly doesn't describe Cthulhu as appearing hurt, just that he broke apart on impact. He seemed perfectly capable of passing out insanity and similar things to the humans without needing to be actually corporeal (for a given definition of corporeal).

[LTwerewolf]

He wasn't really passing out insanity. People's minds broke just by looking at him. There was no overt effort coming from him to do it.

[Da'Shain]

I tend to subscribe to the "his sleep was troubled for a moment and the steamship scratched an itch to send him back down into slumber" theory, but a case can be made for that or for Cthulhu being "weak" enough to feel pain from such a thing. The latter is the more justified assumption (if we're gonna be scientific about it) but it also doesn't really fit with the idea behind most Lovecraft horror, so I'm more inclined to believe the former.


In our games, Cthulhu and other Great Old Ones are essentially anti-gods, while the Outer Gods are cosmic entity level stuff that are trapped outside the reality that the gods created. A god followed a villain into the Far Realm once and pretty much immediately got chomped by Azathoth. Encountering Cthulhu is a bit more survivable, but he's still greater deity-level even if he's not an actual deity.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Just to be clear, I have no problem with people using Lovecraftian figures in their games and having them be powerful. I'd just prefer people acknowledged that they are being true to the spirit of Lovecraft by making these beings powerful in D&D rather than faithfully adapting the cannon characters.

Also, it is a common mistake to overestimate Cthulhu's importance in the mythology we refer to as the Cthulhu Mythos and the author called Yog Sothothery because he's the prominently featured in Lovecraft's longest (baring Charles Dexter Ward) and most popular stories.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Let’s look at a few key stats from the classic CoC game which was designed to model Mythos characters and Investigators in their native universe and I never remember anyone complaining that Cthulhu was underpowered.

San Damage 1d10/1d100 (read passed save/failed save)
Mechanically, a loss of 10 SAN points is manageable and won’t hinder a character terribly. A strong willed character (Say a 14 on 3d6 when determining POW) will make the majority of SAN rolls.
Armor 21
This is a lot of armor but a lot of mortal weapons can punch through on high rolls. Elephant Gun 3d6+4, 12-gauge 4d6, hand grenade 4d6, dynamite 5d6, Claymore Mine 6d6, Light Anti-Tank Weapon 8d6.
Regen 6
Exactly what it sounds like.
Hp 160
So, basically (160/7)(C) with C being the inverse of the proportion of people that lose their **** can kill Cthulhu (well not kill but ya'know).

If we assume POW scores of 12 (it's a 3d6 stat) and that everyone that fails takes enough SAN damage to disable them then 40% of the "investigators" flip out, so C=1.7.

It takes about 36 guys with noob tubes to kill Cthulhu (+ 1d4 if Cthulhu has initiative) plus a few extra for any accidents caused by gibbering idiots.

Of course this is incredibly silly and goes against the spirit of Mythos I’m just throwing out raw numbers as they were presented in a system that in my experience was always respected by Lovecraft fans and these numbers very much support Cthulhu being a very powerful monster that isn't nearly a godling.

[Certified]

Let’s look at a few key stats from the classic CoC game which was designed to model Mythos characters and Investigators in their native universe and I never remember anyone complaining that Cthulhu was underpowered.

San Damage 1d10/1d100 (read passed save/failed save)
Mechanically, a loss of 10 SAN points is manageable and won’t hinder a character terribly. A strong willed character (Say a 14 on 3d6 when determining POW) will make the majority of SAN rolls.
Armor 21
This is a lot of armor but a lot of mortal weapons can punch through on high rolls. Elephant Gun 3d6+4, 12-gauge 4d6, hand grenade 4d6, dynamite 5d6, Claymore Mine 6d6, Light Anti-Tank Weapon 8d6.
Regen 6
Exactly what it sounds like.
Hp 160
So, basically (160/7)(C) with C being the inverse of the proportion of people that lose their **** can kill Cthulhu (well not kill but ya'know).

If we assume POW scores of 12 (it's a 3d6 stat) and that everyone that fails takes enough SAN damage to disable them then 40% of the "investigators" flip out, so C=1.7.

It takes about 36 guys with noob tubes to kill Cthulhu (+ 1d4 if Cthulhu has initiative) plus a few extra for any accidents caused by gibbering idiots.

Of course this is incredibly silly and goes against the spirit of Mythos I’m just throwing out raw numbers as they were presented in a system that in my experience was always respected by Lovecraft fans and these numbers very much support Cthulhu being a very powerful monster that isn't nearly a godling.

While I don't have a book handy doesn't our sleeping buddy have a few other tricks up his sleeve for decimating pesky investigators?

[Kurald Galain]

Pshhh... he doesn't even have a familiar.

But he trades power for great flavor!

[Tanuki Tales]

I personally like to think that Cthulhu is like Buu from Dragonball Z: It's a ridiculously simple task to "injure" him, even for mundanes with things as weak as handguns, but you didn't even actually make him do anything but pause while he contemplates the perfect manner to destroy you.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

While I don't have a book handy doesn't our sleeping buddy have a few other tricks up his sleeve for decimating pesky investigators?

Well, Cthulhu knows a **** ton of spells, the book says hundreds and doesn't have hundreds of spells, but based on the spells it does have, none of those spells are fireball or mass domination or banshee scream etc. CoC magic is mostly rituals and such and that's actually where the real threat of Cthulhu lies, in him waking, finding the stars have aligned and finishing the ritual to awake/revive something that's actually threatening on a global/universal scale that I'd spitball being anywhere between CR 30 and NI.

In an actual fight sure he could use his retardedly high strength and size to destroy terrain and such and reasonably kill more than 1d4 "investigators" a round.

Again, I wasn't implying the scenario was reasonable I was just displaying that he had numbers that weren't that high in his highly regarded native system and if you did a conversion based on those stats Cthulhu'd be relatively tame in D&D at least in an actual fight. Cthulhu is the Great Priest, the Prophet, the Harbinger etc not the Elder Evil.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Just went through the spell section assuming he knows pretty much every spell Cthulhu has two good options.

Deflect Harm-Negate attacks 1 Magic Point negates 1 attack.

Grasp of Cthulhu-Basically Evard's Black Tentacles costs 2d6 magic points. This one may not work it has an effect where you can extend the effect without rechecking resistence, but you have to concentrate and not take other actions. It isn't clear if using just the standard 1 minute duration requires concentration.

Anyway Cthulu has 42 magic points.

Oh there is a cloak of flame spell that would be more optimal, but flaming Cthulhu is silly even if you don't accept him being tied to elemental water.

[Certified]

Oh there is a cloak of flame spell that would be more optimal, but flaming Cthulhu is silly even if you don't accept him being tied to elemental water.

I don't know, it might not be that silly... Linked for size (http://www.imgbase.info/images/safe-wallpapers/miscellaneous/1_other_wallpapers/14080_1_other_wallpapers_cthulhu_monster.jpg)

[Hand_of_Vecna]

I don't know, it might not be that silly... Linked for size (http://www.imgbase.info/images/safe-wallpapers/miscellaneous/1_other_wallpapers/14080_1_other_wallpapers_cthulhu_monster.jpg)

Cool picture, looks like a bunch of stuff behind him like a city or some ships are on fire not him. Or it could be an unusual color choice for the unearthly glow of R'leyh like this pic http://ecimages.kobobooks.com/Image.ashx?imageID=oTGsUUAY4UyireHaWnGp2g&Type=Full

[Spuddles]

Cthulhu was 1d4 investigators in at least the editions of Chaosim's CoC I read. It was Yog-Sothoth was 1d6.


"each combat round, Yog-Sothoth may touch one character" ... "Silver Bolt 80%, damage death in 5-yard diameter" ...

Granted, these may all have been changed between 5.5 and whatever edition you're familiar with.

I'm sorry, I can't help myself, this particular Cthulhu meme is one of my least favorites for some reason...

I am fairly certain 1d4 investigators/round was from Chaosium's 6th edition. I'll have to double check it.


Let’s look at a few key stats from the classic CoC game which was designed to model Mythos characters and Investigators in their native universe and I never remember anyone complaining that Cthulhu was underpowered.

San Damage 1d10/1d100 (read passed save/failed save)
Mechanically, a loss of 10 SAN points is manageable and won’t hinder a character terribly. A strong willed character (Say a 14 on 3d6 when determining POW) will make the majority of SAN rolls.
Armor 21
This is a lot of armor but a lot of mortal weapons can punch through on high rolls. Elephant Gun 3d6+4, 12-gauge 4d6, hand grenade 4d6, dynamite 5d6, Claymore Mine 6d6, Light Anti-Tank Weapon 8d6.
Regen 6
Exactly what it sounds like.
Hp 160
So, basically (160/7)(C) with C being the inverse of the proportion of people that lose their **** can kill Cthulhu (well not kill but ya'know).

If we assume POW scores of 12 (it's a 3d6 stat) and that everyone that fails takes enough SAN damage to disable them then 40% of the "investigators" flip out, so C=1.7.

It takes about 36 guys with noob tubes to kill Cthulhu (+ 1d4 if Cthulhu has initiative) plus a few extra for any accidents caused by gibbering idiots.

Of course this is incredibly silly and goes against the spirit of Mythos I’m just throwing out raw numbers as they were presented in a system that in my experience was always respected by Lovecraft fans and these numbers very much support Cthulhu being a very powerful monster that isn't nearly a godling.

Ultimately, Cthulhu should be defeatable within the Lovecraft universe. He's just a creature, like any other creature, and most of the Lovecraftian horror gods are manifestations of universal principles more than some sort of "god of madness".

Cthulhu might not have had much trouble vs. 1920s world, who had at most dynamite at their disposal. Now we could construct all sorts of strange devices to bathe the beast in cosmic radiation.

The horror in the mythos isn't that there are some ultimate over-9000 monsters that want to noodle you to death. It's that the monsters don't care about you. The universe is cold and uncaring and great slumbering things will one day erase existence because they rolled over in bed.

These sorts of discussion amuse me. It's like reading Kafka's Metamorphosis and concluding that giant man-bugs aren't that scary because you can hurt them with a thrown apple. It's totally missing the horror of the story.

[Tanuki Tales]

Cthulhu might not have had much trouble vs. 1920s world, who had at most dynamite at their disposal. Now we could construct all sorts of strange devices to bathe the beast in cosmic radiation.

Weren't there rules somewhere that if you nuked Cthulhu, he would just come back X rounds later, perfectly fine and now radioactive?

And I disagree somewhat. I think the horror of the mythos wasn't just that the universe didn't care, but that humanity was an insignificant bubble floating amongst titanic forces that could squash us flat if they ever took notice.

[Elderand]

Weren't there rules somewhere that if you nuked Cthulhu, he would just come back X rounds later, perfectly fine and now radioactive?

And I disagree somewhat. I think the horror of the mythos wasn't just that the universe didn't care, but that humanity was an insignificant bubble floating amongst titanic forces that could squash us flat if they ever took notice.

Or squash you flat even if they didn't took notice simply because we were in the way. The same way we might step on an ant whitout ever realising it

[Spuddles]

Weren't there rules somewhere that if you nuked Cthulhu, he would just come back X rounds later, perfectly fine and now radioactive?

And I disagree somewhat. I think the horror of the mythos wasn't just that the universe didn't care, but that humanity was an insignificant bubble floating amongst titanic forces that could squash us flat if they ever took notice.


Or squash you flat even if they didn't took notice simply because we were in the way. The same way we might step on an ant whitout ever realising it

"The universe is cold and uncaring and great slumbering things will one day erase existence because they rolled over in bed."

:smallconfused:

[Wardog]

Also bear in mind that if you took a typical Lovecraft protagonist and stuck him in the Forgotten Realms (for example), he would probably be taking SAN damage or rolling for will saves every time he saw a kobold. Or an elf. Or worst of all, a half-elf.

[Tanuki Tales]

"The universe is cold and uncaring and great slumbering things will one day erase existence because they rolled over in bed."

:smallconfused:

Sorry, I missed that sentence for some reason and "The horror in the mythos isn't that there are some ultimate over-9000 monsters that want to noodle you to death." stuck in my head. :smallsigh:

[Certified]

Cool picture, looks like a bunch of stuff behind him like a city or some ships are on fire not him. Or it could be an unusual color choice for the unearthly glow of R'leyh like this pic http://ecimages.kobobooks.com/Image.ashx?imageID=oTGsUUAY4UyireHaWnGp2g&Type=Full

I think it was meant to be a setting/rising sun, but I thought it looked cool.

[FatR]

It's not actually him, but it is his "children":

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/aberrations/star-spawn-of-cthulhu

These actually are pretty fine stats for the real deal, if somewhat too high number-wise and lacking wide-area effects Cthulhu presumably has (but never gets a chance to use). PF authors just have far bigger hatred of PC actually accomplishing anything meaningful than average 3.X authors, so almost anyone remotely significant is automatically CR 25+ in their setting, and anyone really significant is arbitrary powerful. Cthulhu is not even a heavy hitter in its own setting. In DnD "a monstrous undead priest of an eldritch deity buried in a lost city at the bottom of ocean, who is a threat on a scale of a single planet, if fully awakened from its undying slumber" is just an average high-level foe, quite possibly not even a campaign boss.

[Starbuck_II]

You could cause any of the Lovecraft characters insane by interracial dating or showing him Spherical geometry (non-Euclidean geometry, another is hyperbolic geometry).

Heck, math adapted and is cool with it. But not Lovecraft dudes.

Technically, nothing prevernts Cthulhu from going insane from casting spells. Which makes sense as there couldn't be insane gods in their unicerse if they were all immune.

[FatR]

The horror in the mythos isn't that there are some ultimate over-9000 monsters that want to noodle you to death. It's that the monsters don't care about you. The universe is cold and uncaring and great slumbering things will one day erase existence because they rolled over in bed.

Lovecraft's universe is pretty much our universe as he perceived it. Except the local equivalents of a biosphere-killing asteroid or a wave of deadly cosmic radiation from an exploded star have tentacles. Lovecraft took a look at the cosmology that scientific breakthroughs of his time created in place of a cozy, Sun-centric universe of the previous century, and was deeply impressed by how totally insignificant and fragile humanity was in this cosmology.

However, monsters and inhuman beings, beyond the very top tier of cosmic gods, that are hardly can be called sentient, are not favored by the universe any more than humanity. Cthulhu might be more powerful than a human, but it is still ended up imprisoned alive for millions of years and can only hope for astronomical events beyond its control to release it.

[sambouchah]

Man you guys don't understand how much I enjoyed reading through all this. I have learned quite a bit.

Also despite my dislike for being Dungeon Master I think I am going to run a Cthulhu-esq campaign.

Kuo-tao=deep ones(or maybe locatahs?)
Illithid= occultist leaders
Rogue Eidolon= some sort of extraplanar beast(Just like the fluff. I think it would fit)
Create Cthulhu as a deity(not because he is one but because he has worshipers)
Needlefolk= Beings of Xiclotl

Etc, etc

Edit: I did know what R'lyeh was. I was just under the effects of mind blank

[hamishspence]

Man you guys don't understand how much I enjoyed reading through all this. I have learned quite a bit.

Also despite my dislike for being Dungeon Master I think I am going to run a Cthulhu-esq campaign.

Kuo-tao=deep ones(or maybe locatahs?)

Dragon Magazine's Demonomicon: Dagon article had them as deep one analogs- including human-looking hybrids that turned into Kuo-toa as they got older.

[FatR]

You could cause any of the Lovecraft characters insane by interracial dating or showing him Spherical geometry (non-Euclidean geometry, another is hyperbolic geometry).

Randolph Carter had seen more hardcore stuff than that. And in general you should note that majority of Lovecraft characters who suffer psychic disorders are put into situations that would have left most people with PTSD even if you replace all supernatural involvement by normal dangers of similar magnitude.

[Spuddles]

You could cause any of the Lovecraft characters insane by interracial dating or showing him Spherical geometry (non-Euclidean geometry, another is hyperbolic geometry).

Heck, math adapted and is cool with it. But not Lovecraft dudes.

Technically, nothing prevernts Cthulhu from going insane from casting spells. Which makes sense as there couldn't be insane gods in their unicerse if they were all immune.

I think Lovecraft gets an unnecessary amount of flak regarding stuff that claws at your sanity.


Randolph Carter had seen more hardcore stuff than that. And in general you should note that majority of Lovecraft characters who suffer psychic disorders are put into situations that would have left most people with PTSD even if you replace all supernatural involvement by normal dangers of similar magnitude.

Randolph Carter had the advantage of doing it while dreaming, which lets the mind ignore some of the sanity problems of hanging out with ghouls on the black ships of moonbeasts, or riding the tickling, mouthless nightgaunts.

[Tanuki Tales]

PF authors just have far bigger hatred of PC actually accomplishing anything meaningful

So, your definition of "meaningful" is high CR speed bumps? Because that's what your post reads like what you expect "big"/"significant"/etc. monsters to be. :smallconfused:

[Spuddles]

So, your definition of "meaningful" is high CR speed bumps? Because that's what your post reads like what you expect "big"/"significant"/etc. monsters to be. :smallconfused:

No, it just means that Eliminster, etc. all have to be cr25+ so there is no chance the average game will use them as anything other than DMPCs/DM fiat.

[PrismCat21]

If someone makes a "Cthulhu is Underpowered in d20" rant, he shall earn my undying gratitude.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14746395#post14746395

There you go Mr. Chicken :thog:

[Slipperychicken]

So, your definition of "meaningful" is high CR speed bumps? Because that's what your post reads like what you expect "big"/"significant"/etc. monsters to be. :smallconfused:

Of course. The only way a PC can impact his world is by stabbing things to death. If you can't stab it, stab people with it, or exchange it for stabbing-accessories, it might as well not exist.

[Tanuki Tales]

No, it just means that Eliminster, etc. all have to be cr25+ so there is no chance the average game will use them as anything other than DMPCs/DM fiat.

Well, it's flat out false and disingenuous regardless.

Pathfinder only has ~25 creatures that are above CR 20 and only two creatures are even 25. To my knowledge there is only 1 creature that is above CR 25 and that's the Mantis God (though I haven't perused every single Unique creature).

And none of their NPCs, to memory, are above CR 20 (and only 3 of them even exist to my knowledge that are CR 20).

Edit:

My point being that if you think that the definition of a PC doing "meaningful things" is turning punching out Cthulhu into just another expenditure of only ~20% of a group's daily resources...welll...maybe you need to re-think your definition of the word.

[Rhynn]

I am fairly certain 1d4 investigators/round was from Chaosium's 6th edition. I'll have to double check it.

Nope, same stats etc.. Call of Cthulhu doesn't actually really change between editions in major ways - stats especially stay pretty much the same. They just re-format (and make other, less direct changes, like switching from "just phobias" to a more comprehensive mental disorder system). Maybe you were thinking about the fact Yog-Sothoth drains 1D6 CON on touch from a victim?


Ultimately, Cthulhu should be defeatable within the Lovecraft universe. He's just a creature, like any other creature, and most of the Lovecraftian horror gods are manifestations of universal principles more than some sort of "god of madness".

Not really.

"At 0 hit points, Cthulhu bursts and dissolves into a disgusting, cloying greenish cloud, then immediately begins to reform. He needs 1D10+10 minutes to regain full solidity again, and when he does, he then has a full 160 hit points"

No exceptions.

In D&D terms, Cthulhu has regeneration, and no type of damage is lethal to him. (Fittingly enough, you could get around that with insta-death magic.)


Weren't there rules somewhere that if you nuked Cthulhu, he would just come back X rounds later, perfectly fine and now radioactive?

That's another silly meme. That people take literally. See above. Nothing about becoming radioactive, but yes, even a nuke will only take him out for 1D10+10 minutes.

Cthulhu's armor and regeneration are based on - like most Mythos monsters - not being entirely "in phase" with our reality or dimension. The Dunwich Horror elaborates on this quite a bit.

[Spuddles]

Well, it's flat out false and disingenuous regardless.

Pathfinder only has ~25 creatures that are above CR 20 and only two creatures are even 25. To my knowledge there is only 1 creature that is above CR 25 and that's the Mantis God (though I haven't perused every single Unique creature).

And none of their NPCs, to memory, are above CR 20 (and only 3 of them even exist to my knowledge that are CR 20).

Edit:

My point being that if you think that the definition of a PC doing "meaningful things" is turning punching out Cthulhu into just another expenditure of only ~20% of a group's daily resources...welll...maybe you need to re-think your definition of the word.

I misread PF as FR.


Nope, same stats etc.. Call of Cthulhu doesn't actually really change between editions in major ways - stats especially stay pretty much the same. They just re-format (and make other, less direct changes, like switching from "just phobias" to a more comprehensive mental disorder system). Maybe you were thinking about the fact Yog-Sothoth drains 1D6 CON on touch from a victim?



Not really.

"At 0 hit points, Cthulhu bursts and dissolves into a disgusting, cloying greenish cloud, then immediately begins to reform. He needs 1D10+10 minutes to regain full solidity again, and when he does, he then has a full 160 hit points"

No exceptions.

In D&D terms, Cthulhu has regeneration, and no type of damage is lethal to him. (Fittingly enough, you could get around that with insta-death magic.)



That's another silly meme. That people take literally. See above. Nothing about becoming radioactive, but yes, even a nuke will only take him out for 1D10+10 minutes.

Cthulhu's armor and regeneration are based on - like most Mythos monsters - not being entirely "in phase" with our reality or dimension. The Dunwich Horror elaborates on this quite a bit.

Mmmmkay.

Not really talking about the rules they made up for Cthulhu, but that you know, the fact that chtulhu could be brought low by getting bumped in the head by a boat.

[Tanuki Tales]

I misread PF as FR.

And I wonder if FatR meant FR instead of PF as well. In which case, I agree somewhat as well, since Faerun does have a practical metric ton of incredibly powerful NPCs.




Not really talking about the rules they made up for Cthulhu, but that you know, the fact that chtulhu could be brought low by getting bumped in the head by a boat.

I wouldn't say "brought low" as much as "temporarily inconvenienced to enough of a degree that the steam boat managed to get away". Which is why I think of his durability in the same light as Buu's.

[Talakeal]

I have a question, maybe worthy of starting a new thread, but it seems on topic here.

Later this year I am planning on running a max level follow up to one of my long running campaigns. Currently the world is in ruins, the gods themselves have fallen, and the PCs are just about the most powerful things in the world.

Cthulhul is still sleeping in Ryleh, but he will one day awaken. Which means that the PCs will need to deal with him permanently.

How would I go about actually running an adventure where either Cthulhu awakens or the PCs proactively go into Ryleh to kill or permanently imprison him before that could happen?

How would a make an encounter with Cthulhu actually memorable, epic, and challenging? The type of thing that will make people who hear the story go "wow you must be badasses" rather than "pfft, no one can take out Cthulhu, must have been a Monty Haul game!"

[Slipperychicken]

How would a make an encounter with Cthulhu actually memorable, epic, and challenging? The type of thing that will make people who hear the story go "wow you must be badasses" rather than "pfft, no one can take out Cthulhu, must have been a Monty Haul game!"

You could have your standard "stop the ritual before things go pear shaped" encounter, with chanting cultists, a crucial macguffin and all that jazz.

I could see direct confrontation if his minions have to slowly "power up" Cthulhu before he can awaken. The PCs get there a bit late -Cthulhu has kind of begun to awaken. Beating down his very noticeably-weakened physical aspect (he occupies several other spatial and temporal dimensions, but the 3-dimensional manifestation on this timeline is the one we need to worry about) will be enough to keep him snoring... for now. Besides, you can't imprison him permanently. The best you can hope for is to kick the can a few centuries down the road and hope there are some new heroes ready to go.


A day may come when the courage of men fails, and Great Cthulhu rises from the deep, when the age of men comes crashing down. An hour of strange beasts and shattered souls. But it is not this day. This day, we fight! :smallcool:

[Pickford]

Yes, that's the exact passage I was referring to. What level would you guess those normal mortal men were if converted to D&D? If it's not terribly high we can only guess on whether it would have any effect on someone with a Will save of say +10.

Yes, Cthulhu was getting up, fast healing, etc, but he was hurt by what amounts to a siege engine. Hurt being the operative word. I would say that only two things are clear; that Cthulhu was hurt and that Cthulhu was not killed sorry three, Cthulhu was healing and a full recovery was all but assured, anything else in conjecture.

Let's not discuss what Great Tulu did or did not decide/think. We thankfully are not Privy to Q'thulu's thoughts.

Like all entities from the mythos cthulhu is just a creature...a terrifying and incomprehensible being that is unlike anything man has encountered and the very existence of which will drive one mad by virtue of the recognition that nothing man believes is true, but still...just a creature.

Cthulhu 'may' be immortal and Cthulhu, like other mythos creatures is likely extremely hardy...but if you read lovecraft you'll see that even mythos creatures are not invulnerable. With proper planning (The Shunned House, The Dunwich Horror) even mythos creatures can be brought low.

The problem with introducing any Mythos creatures to D&D is that in most every setting the player characters are already cognizant that the world operates under greater circumstances. With nothing to shake ones world view, there can be no underlying horror.

(I mean, yes, conventional horrors like murder, undead, etc....but if you already 'know' there are undead? Alot less horrifying.)

[Rhynn]

How would I go about actually running an adventure where either Cthulhu awakens or the PCs proactively go into Ryleh to kill or permanently imprison him before that could happen?

How would a make an encounter with Cthulhu actually memorable, epic, and challenging? The type of thing that will make people who hear the story go "wow you must be badasses" rather than "pfft, no one can take out Cthulhu, must have been a Monty Haul game!"

There's a published Call of Cthulhu campaign-adventure about this: Shadows of Yog-Sothoth.

I suggest you literally make Cthulhu too tough for the PCs to have any chance in a fight. Instead, they have to find a way to prevent his rise. If you're running a more linear game, you can plot it out as usual, but if you want it to be a real challenge, come up with several approaches... taking out all of his cults around the world (having to find and hunt them down), finding a way to destroy or bury an island (maybe cause a tectonic plate to crack and grind over R'lyeh while it's still at the bottom of the sea), find a way to change the stars, teleport the entire planet into another time (where the stars won't be right for a few million more years), banishing Cthulhu permanently into another dimension using some unique and obscure ritual...

I think, for instance, having to find every last one of a hundred well-concealed cult cells around the world would be a fairly epic challenge. Maybe a bit fewer if you're not feeling megalomaniacally ambitious about it... (Maybe it's a set, unholy number determined by eldritch mathematics.)

[Wardog]

How would I go about actually running an adventure where either Cthulhu awakens or the PCs proactively go into Ryleh to kill or permanently imprison him before that could happen?

How would a make an encounter with Cthulhu actually memorable, epic, and challenging? The type of thing that will make people who hear the story go "wow you must be badasses" rather than "pfft, no one can take out Cthulhu, must have been a Monty Haul game!"

Destroy stars until there is no way they could ever be "right" again.

[Spuddles]

Like all entities from the mythos cthulhu is just a creature...a terrifying and incomprehensible being that is unlike anything man has encountered and the very existence of which will drive one mad by virtue of the recognition that nothing man believes is true, but still...just a creature.

Cthulhu 'may' be immortal and Cthulhu, like other mythos creatures is likely extremely hardy...but if you read lovecraft you'll see that even mythos creatures are not invulnerable. With proper planning (The Shunned House, The Dunwich Horror) even mythos creatures can be brought low.

The problem with introducing any Mythos creatures to D&D is that in most every setting the player characters are already cognizant that the world operates under greater circumstances. With nothing to shake ones world view, there can be no underlying horror.

(I mean, yes, conventional horrors like murder, undead, etc....but if you already 'know' there are undead? Alot less horrifying.)

I am not sure that all of Lovecraft's mythos monsters are necessarily creatures. At least the outer gods aren't. The great race of Gith, Dholes, ghouls, etc. all are. But Hastur the Green Flame? Yog-Sothoth? Azathoth? They are more like manifestations of physical rules. We speak of them as if they were creatures simply that out minds may make sense of them in the same way we may discuss valence shells and electronegative ions "wanting" protons.

[Starbuck_II]

Destroy stars until there is no way they could ever be "right" again.

Illithids tried that, something went wrong, so they traveled back to the past to set things right. And past is D&D's present.

So Illithids must dislike Cthulhu.