Game Debate: Post or Pre FF7 Final Fantasy?

[GoblinGilmartin]

I just want to get a dialogue going. Which Final fantasy is the best, in your personal opinion? 1-6, or 7 and onward? I'll post my own opinion once this gets going, remember, be nice:smallsmile:.

[Acanous]

Definately Pre. X was OK, XII was pretty good, and VII was great. The rest of the post-VII games are a steaming pile.

plus if I can go with Pre-VII, that means I don't have to acknowledge X-2 or XIII-2 as things.

[psilontech]

I only enjoyed two Final Fantasy titles. VI and Tactics.

One before, one several months after.

So, with all whopping two of them averaged together: Neither. Most of them I find to be lacking in the entertainment department outside of a couple anomalies.

[tyckspoon]

I like the Pre set the best, although I don't think I can pick a favorite of them- 4, 5, and 6 all have different strong points, and 1 has a huge nostalgia thing for having been my first RPG game. And it's not any accident that my favorite Post 7 game is 9, which is a huge retro love-letter to the Pre 7 games.

There's good games in the 7-and-later group; I regard 7, 9, X, and X-2 pretty fondly (yes, X-2. It's a wonderful treatment of the Jobs system, it's a refinement of X's already pretty good way of handling combat timing, and it's a decent take on the "Well, what happens *after* the heroes defeat the Ancient Evil?" question. It's just all wrapped in a really silly and jarring framing device.) The pre-Playstation ones just have a stronger place.

[Zevox]

I don't know, honestly. The Final Fantasy series seems extremely erratic to me. I've mostly played the ones after 7, and most of those are mediocre at best, awful at worst, but I can't say I've been especially impressed by what I've played pre-7 either. I enjoyed FF1 for the very old-school dungeon-romp that it is, but it's nothing more than that. FF4 was okay, and I admit I might have a higher opinion of it had I played it back when it was a recent title, but I didn't play it until the DS remake came out, and by then it was showing its age, so I wasn't that impressed. And well, that's all I've played pre-7. Admittedly, that's a better average impression between them than the ones from 8 onward that I've played, but since it's only two games out of seven that doesn't really mean much.

I guess I'm weird, because I'm a big JRPG fan, but even having played quite a few Final Fantasy games, I'm still at a total loss for why the series is so popular.

[huttj509]

Varies by game.

1 was pretty basic, not bad.

2...never really liked the levelling mechanic for 2.

3 had a job system, and introduced the onion knight. Solid points in favor.

4 had a great story, but the shifting cast of characters was a bit annoying.

5 had a job system, and thus wins by default. And Gilgamesh. Love 5. LOVE IT!

6 had a solid story, interesting mechanics, and a unified aesthetic feel that was awesome for the platform capabilities. Wonderful music as well.

7 was so pretty, except the characters seemed completely out of place, creating a broken aesthetic for me that the game never overcame. The jagged character models are often commented on, because they just stood out so much from the surroundings in a bad way.

8 just didn't feel right. Liked the draw mechanic, but not linking spells to stats.

9 was awesome, fun, but the last boss came out of nowhere.

10 was pretty in both the scenery and the characters. Much more consistent aesthetic. Didn't like the "must use these characters to hit the boss because he's far away, or at a distance, or utterly armored, keep swapping them all out, ok?"

10-2 is, well, I both like the aesthetic, and loathe it. At least it's consistent within the game. You don't have serious outfits with bouncy music or classical music with flashy outfits.

11 was pretty, too grindy for my tastes.

12 is great, wish the US version had the job setup, seems like a really neat variant but I don't wanna get the international version for that.

Haven't played 13. Mad props for a decent Aussie accent, from what I hear.

[Tebryn]

11 was pretty, too grindy for my tastes.


To be fair, that's because it's an MMO and a rather old one at that.

[huttj509]

To be fair, that's because it's an MMO and a rather old one at that.

I found 11 more frustrating than EQ for some reason, let's put it that way.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Pre. 6 was fantastic. :smallbiggrin:

[NecroRebel]

6 is one of the crown jewels of the golden age of console RPGs, only topped in that regard by Chrono Trigger. The graphics are nearly the peak of what can be done with sprites and a 16-bit system, the characters interesting, the storyline engaging, and the music fantastic. It may just be nostalgia, but it's still by far my favorite. In particular, I've not liked any videogame soundtrack as a whole as much as I've liked FF6's.

Personally, I like the pre-FF7 games more, though I've only played 4, 5, and 6. FF4 and FF5 seem very slow-paced in hindsight - they really do need some form of sprint shoes for it - but they, too, have good stories, reasonably-interesting characters, and decent music.

Of the post-FF7 games, I've only played 8 and 10, and actually prefer 8. It's mechanics were very much experimental, and in hindsight the experiment failed, but once you're used to them they're a lot of fun. I've replayed the game as I've gotten older and with my own maturity I've appreciated the story's nuances better. Very little about 8's characters is obvious on the surface. In that regard, at least, 8 is better than 4, 5, and 10. 10 was fun enough, but the plot didn't seem nearly as epic as those of previous eras, and the gameplay seemed relatively shallow, too. Its main draw was voice acting, but that alone isn't enough to make a great game.

[Ogremindes]

5 and 6 are two of may favourite games period. I don't care so much for the rest of the series. So pre.

[The New Bruceski]

X-2 has the most fascinating combat system if you're willing to sit through two chapters of Barbie's Spira Adventure before the plot actually begins. They had to establish a new baseline "normal" for things settling after FFX's events, but it really does confuse matters. If the game's a mainstream title (ie not porn, among other things) and not called Ar Tonelico I shouldn't feel creepy for playing it.

[Cespenar]

Neither post nor pre, but side. :smalltongue:

By which I mean FFT.

[Aotrs Commander]

I have completed VI through X-2, and got about part way through IV, V and XII (which probably speaks for itself; on the other hand, I've played a great deal less RPG in recent years - hell I'm only about half way through Persona 3...)

I think X was my favourite, daft as it looks in retrospect via Spoony's reviews; mainly because the combat system meant I actually had time to plan and use clever tactics, something I never did with the timer gauges, generally.

(I liked X-2, though, and never quite got why it got such a bad rap. It used two out of the three best characters out of X (Yuna and Rikku); Paine was just kinda Auron lite, but she wasn't dreadful or anything (I liked her much more than Lulu or Kimhari, who I didn't get on with at all, or Wakka who I could leave or take.) It was missing only Tidus, who I rather liked (indeed pre FF X-2 he was my favourite protagonist character), despite his being an idiot jock most of the time, I felt at least had his head screwed on mostly striaght, because he said a lot of the things (about beating Sin) that I did, namely that we were going to get there and beat Sin to death with it's own entrails and Yuna-sacrificing be damned. Even if I did keep a running count when I played it of the number of times he got knocked unconcious and fell in the water. I was margianlly disappointed Spony didn't have a counter for that in his review...)

I suspect my impressions of the earlier games are somewhat coloured, though, since I came into console gaming very late (I got my PS2 just about in time for FF X, and that because I'd enjoyed playing FF VIII on PC (which was about the first "proper" JRPG I'd played (and my least favourite FF game, as it later turned out.)

[Fan]

Post.

As much as people rave about 6, and as much as it was still a good game that deserves a seat upon the mantle of the best games in the series, it alone doesn't make up for games like 7, 9, 10, 11, and 14.

If you look past the grindy MMO aspect (which is a nature of anything with a subscription fee. It's how they make money.) both of the Final Fantasy MMO's have delivered beautiful asthetics for their time, provided one of the better cross server grouping mechanisms there are (Link shells allow you to group with people you know in real life, even if they didn't start out on your server, without having to deal with making a new character just to play with you.), and a pretty compelling story provided you do and understand the side quests on top of the story.

For me, it's pre 1 game, post 5 games and I happened to enjoy 9 a lot more than 6, and feel like if they had made Jenova the real final boss instead of Sephiroth as originally planned 7 would've done a lot better.

[The Succubus]

I understand FF XIV is undergoing something of a re-work. If there's the prospect I can play as a Blue Mage, I'd be rather interested. <3 Blue Mages...

Anyways.

Four was good and had some interesting characters ("You spoony bard!") but there was a lot of grind to it and the pace fell flat in places.

Five. The job system was great and aside from the "insert player here" nature of the first character, most of them were pretty good. I like the androgynous nature of Faris for example, although I really *REALLY* could have done without the "Talk like a Pirate" translation in the latest version. Some of the later Job skills like X-shot could have used a lot less grind, especially as you had to do it for each character.

Six. My favourite pre-VII adventure. I want an Octopus plushie! ^__^

Seven. My very first Final Fantasy and as such will always have a special place in my heart.

More details to follow after lunch.

[DigoDragon]

I'd say "Pre" is my preference. I've enjoyed the characters and mechanics of the older games much more often than the newer ones. My favorites being the SNES games- 4, 5, and 6.

[Derjuin]

Hmm. I like two games before, and two games after, but not the game in the middle. :smalltongue: I think I will say pre-FF7.

To put it succinctly, I liked 4. I absolutely loved 6. It is literally my favorite game, ever. I never played 2, 5, or 11+, so I can't include them. I did not like 7, probably because of the length and how confusing the story felt. 8 simply did not feel like Final Fantasy, but maybe it's because I grew up with 4 and 6. 9 was excellent, and 10 was pretty great too. I do not care to speak of X-2.

Will expand on the succinctness as soon as I get some sleep and can think straight!

[Eldonauran]

:smalleek: I can't pick a side. I like them all, for the most part. Even those that I don't like a LOT, there are still parts of them that I keep coming back to play.

I'm currently on a play through of XIII-2 (first one!) and enjoying it immensely. No particular reason why, it just hits my ... 'this is fun' button.

I have a copy of XIV, but do not have it installed at the moment. Maybe when I have more free time.

I've been playing FF since 7 was released (thats when I got my first gaming console). Tactics was my second. I started the series from the beginning after that.

1) Basic game, nothing I hated. Keep coming back for the challenge
2) Improvement, liked the story
3) Job system? Yes!
4) Great story!
5) Job system again!?!? Love you!
6) Epic-sauce, anyone? Yes, lots of love for this game
7) ... My first FF. Not my absolute favorite but yes, please!
8) I hated this game... at first. Now, it is one of my favorites.
9) Uh-huh. Epic fantasy, a little cartoony and cheesey. One of the few games that actually made me laugh out loud. Ooooohh.... soft!?!? I swear that will always stick with me... I have much love for this game
10) Voice acting, blitzball, spheregrid, no levels... The game broke the mold of the previous games. I love this game.
10-2) :smallamused: That is all... There is no white text ... Move on ... OK, there is. Job based, in combat switching!?!? First sequel. Cheesy and emotional. All my love.
11) Job based MMO? All my love. I played this a lot.
12) :smallconfused: I am still conflicted about this game. Story? I felt let down. Where is my 'saving the world'? Other than that, combat was fun, gambits were awesome, chaining limit break system was excellent (Beat Andromelech??? with level 33 characters because of the chain system).
13) Linear, beautiful and challenging. Story felt a little disconnected to me at times. Loved the class setup and battle changing.
13-2) So far, I love it. Still early yet. I'm somewhat floored that they have time travel and the ability to use monsters in battle as party members. Its like a super mash up of everything I like about every game before, except for the ATB. Drop that and I'd call this my favorite game yet. Time will tell if I like how they pulled it off. Regardless, this is going on my 'often replayed' rack.
14) Haven't really played yet.

I've played multiple off-shoots: Crisis Core, Dirge of Cereberus, Tactics, Tactics Advanced 1 & 2, the gameboy final fantasy games, etc. Really have no hate towards any of them. Tactics Advanced, aside from being geared to a younger audience, was very fun for me.

[GoblinGilmartin]

The one thing i never really liked was how 7 and onward was trying to appeal to a new audience: Anime fans, and it took on a strange life in only the way the particularly vocal otaku can achieve. While I've played almost every game in the series (except 9, 10-2, 13, 14. I've got some catching up to do), one of the first games I really got invested in was FF4.
Someone above mentioned that they thought that the constant character switching was a little annoying, which i can understand, but at least it made every character useful and unique, and didn't just drag them along when they didn't help the plot, like in some of the post 7 games.

My love goes to the Pre 7 games.

[Grinner]

The one thing i never really liked was how 7 and onward was trying to appeal to a new audience: Anime fans, and it took on a strange life in only the way the particularly vocal otaku can achieve. While I've played almost every game in the series (except 9, 10-2, 13, 14. I've got some catching up to do), one of the first games I really got invested in was FF4.

Emphasis mine.

Huh, I never thought about it that way. It does make sense in retrospect.

I can't say I've played too many of the primary games, mainly the spinoffs like Tactics and Mystic Quest. VII was memorable for me, however.

[Tebryn]

The one thing i never really liked was how 7 and onward was trying to appeal to a new audience: Anime fans, and it took on a strange life in only the way the particularly vocal otaku can achieve.

Really? You'll forgive me for being a little...amused by this.

[Eldariel]

Pre since VI. IV was also pretty good. Rest of the series never struck a chord for me that much; I liked FFIX, X and VII to varying degrees but not nearly as much as the olden games.

[GoblinGilmartin]

Really? You'll forgive me for being a little...amused by this.

really? huh, can you elaborate? I've just held that view for a long time, I've been wondering what other peoples thoughts were.

[Morbis Meh]

Where am I on this debate... well my hardcore gaming came in with the PSOne but my first exposure to the series was the original (I was 3 at the time and could not grasp the concept of the game long enough to keep me entertained). My favorite final fantasy game is a tie between Tactics and IX... Vivi that's all that needs to be said ever (I shall murder whoever blasphemied my dear Vivi in KH2! I have a tattoo of the little guy :smallbiggrin: ). X wasn't bad, I didn't mind x-2 too much, XII was a bit of a let down so overall post games were not too shabby... except 8 how I hate it so! For the pregames: I orignial but that is only nostalgia, II was silly, III was ok, IV had a good story, V was fun, VI was pretty good too (I know this is usually regarded as the best FF but meh not IMO).

I will go against the current votes and go POST!

[Tebryn]

really? huh, can you elaborate? I've just held that view for a long time, I've been wondering what other peoples thoughts were.

Well, it's a pretty vague statement that the later FF games are geared more towards "Anime Fans". How so? You state it as if it's a fact when, for all I can see, there's no real evidence for it. It just seems a rather hollow statement with little to back it up. Are you suggesting that the FF games past FF7 were created to appeal to a more Western Audience based on the boom in Japanese animation overseas?

[Grinner]

Well, it's a pretty vague statement that the later FF games are geared more towards "Anime Fans". How so? You state it as if it's a fact when, for all I can see, there's no real evidence for it. It just seems a rather hollow statement with little to back it up. Are you suggesting that the FF games past FF7 were created to appeal to a more Western Audience based on the boom in Japanese animation overseas?

It could just be the graphics upgrade made in the transition to 3D, but the character designs of FF VII and onward strike me as being very anime. However, they were working in a two-dimensional space previously, so it would be presumptuous to assume that the change was due to a changing market. Perhaps Square had always wanted to do that style, or perhaps not. Nevertheless, the aesthetic is there.

[Tebryn]

It could just be the graphics upgrade made in the transition to 3D, but the character designs of FF VII and onward strike me as being very anime. However, they were working in a two-dimensional space previously, so it would be presumptuous to assume that the change was due to a changing market. Perhaps Square had always wanted to do that style, or perhaps not. Nevertheless, the aesthetic is there.

Right but why is that a reason to condemn it? The style used in Anime is something that Japanese artists have used for a long time. It's like saying "I liked X until they started to appeal to Comic Fans" for U.S games. It holds no weight as a form of argument -against- the games themselves. The aesthetic was used in Chrono Trigger, drawn by Akira Toriyama, and it came out two years -before- Final Fantasy Seven and it's considered one of the greatest RPG's of all time.

[huttj509]

Well, it's a pretty vague statement that the later FF games are geared more towards "Anime Fans". How so? You state it as if it's a fact when, for all I can see, there's no real evidence for it. It just seems a rather hollow statement with little to back it up. Are you suggesting that the FF games past FF7 were created to appeal to a more Western Audience based on the boom in Japanese animation overseas?

Agreed.

Obviously since Kefka has a Naga laugh he's just pandering to anime fans. But that was 6, so doesn't count.

Though really that laugh style tends to be used to signify upper class snobs...often seen in various anime, though I'm sure I've seen it elsewhere.

It seems to me as reasonable that various games, made in Japan, might have similar cultural and stylistic influences to various animation, made in Japan. I don't think there was as much an intent to "appeal to Anime Fans" as stylistic and game design choices which may have been influenced by the culture around the designers.

Especially since I know a great many anime fans of varying types and degrees, and we all prefer different installments in the FF series.

It's perfectly fine to say the games after 7 went in a direction you didn't like. If you can be more specific about what that direction seems to be, it can foster discussion. Painting it with a broad derogatory brush, which, by the way, might not mean what you think it means, doesn't foster discussion on the topic at hand, and just prompts reactions along the lines of "wait, what the heck do you mean by that?" Especially when it seems to bring into play the specter of the "geek hierarchy."

[tyckspoon]

It could just be the graphics upgrade made in the transition to 3D, but the character designs of FF VII and onward strike me as being very anime. However, they were working in a two-dimensional space previously, so it would be presumptuous to assume that the change was due to a changing market. Perhaps Square had always wanted to do that style, or perhaps not. Nevertheless, the aesthetic is there.

The character concept art has always been.. well, probably not exactly what most people would recognize as 'anime', for whatever it is one might mean by that, but very Japanese. The transition to more detailed and larger polygon-based art just allowed them to more accurately reflect in-game an aesthetic that they were always built on.

[huttj509]

The character concept art has always been.. well, probably not exactly what most people would recognize as 'anime', for whatever it is one might mean by that, but very Japanese. The transition to more detailed and larger polygon-based art just allowed them to more accurately reflect in-game an aesthetic that they were always built on.

I personally love this one. Almost feels like it should be on a scroll from centuries ago, and is nicely representative of Amano's character designs.

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20060512201705/finalfantasy/images/7/78/AmanoGwings.jpg

[Tebryn]

Right, my main point is that the statement seems to be "The games sure went down hill when they started making things look non-western!" when they never did in the first place, considering they are made by a non-western company.

[Grinner]

Right but why is that a reason to condemn it? The style used in Anime is something that Japanese artists have used for a long time. It's like saying "I liked X until they started to appeal to Comic Fans" for U.S games. It holds no weight as a form of argument -against- the games themselves. The aesthetic was used in Chrono Trigger, drawn by Akira Toriyama, and it came out two years -before- Final Fantasy Seven and it's considered one of the greatest RPG's of all time.

Who's condemning it? Arguably, they had always been marketing their games to anime fans, since it's, y'know, a Japanese company.

[ArlEammon]

Right, my main point is that the statement seems to be "The games sure went down hill when they started making things look non-western!" when they never did in the first place, considering they are made by a non-western company.

I think part of the old world charm though, of FF has been the fact that the games took part in a Germanic/English West European style fantasy world. Which, let's face it, is probably exotic to the Japanese, much like we find their culture of the past exotic.

[Seerow]

The Good:
-1
-3
-5
-6
-7
-9
-Tactics

The Bad:
-2
-4
-10
-12
-13

The ugly:
-8
10-2
-11
-14



Just my rankings.

[Tebryn]

Who's condemning it? Arguably, they had always been marketing their games to anime fans, since it's, y'know, a Japanese company.


The one thing i never really liked was how 7 and onward was trying to appeal to a new audience: Anime fans, and it took on a strange life in only the way the particularly vocal otaku can achieve.

That's the statement that led to the current coversation. While it's not "They're all terrible." the statement seems...less than positive.


I think part of the old world charm though, of FF has been the fact that the games took part in a Germanic/English West European style fantasy world. Which, let's face it, is probably exotic to the Japanese, much like we find their culture of the past exotic.

Name one FF game that takes place in an Eastern themed world.

[huttj509]

I think part of the old world charm though, of FF has been the fact that the games took part in a Germanic/English West European style fantasy world. Which, let's face it, is probably exotic to the Japanese, much like we find their culture of the past exotic.

As do 9, and 11, and 12.

7 and 8 are more modern present-day aesthetics. 10 has its own thing going, though it's definitely not "sword and sorcery" type feel.

If you're talking about katanas and ninjas, well, that's been in since FF 1 (katanas and eastern shaolin monk style fighter).

It's generally been a blend of eastern and western mythology and perceived medieval culture, from the beginning. Might be more visually obvious now that graphics are better, but the blend was always there.

[GoblinGilmartin]

Well, it's a pretty vague statement that the later FF games are geared more towards "Anime Fans". How so? You state it as if it's a fact when, for all I can see, there's no real evidence for it. It just seems a rather hollow statement with little to back it up. Are you suggesting that the FF games past FF7 were created to appeal to a more Western Audience based on the boom in Japanese animation overseas?

You're being a bit defensive. I wasn't attacking anime fans, or saying that the games have gone downhill, but i was trying to point out a shift in sensibilities from game to game. The original Final Fantasy was based loosely on Dungeons and Dragons, and the next five or so games in the series reflected that, with a few changes in direction that i see as welcome, they gave the traditional a twist that made it interesting.

But when 7 hit, it felt a bit too different for my own personal tastes. I still played it. I didn't like the story or characters personally (not hate, just not like), but i could see the quality, someone at Square really cared about it. I could argue with you for hours that I feel Cecil Harvey is a WAY better Protagonist than Cloud Strife, but that's not what I'm here for, you can PM me if you want to do that.

I don't understand how you can say that there is no evidence to a change in direction, especially in marketing. Why shouldn't a company do a little pandering here and there? It's sound business. One day the games are popular cult classics, the next day brought to the forefront of gaming because they saw the bigger audience and a chance to explore new territory in gaming. Before FF7, you never saw people cosplaying as Cecil, or Bartz at cons.

[NecroRebel]

Name one FF game that takes place in an Eastern themed world.

Well, 10 was quite religiously-themed, but Yevon feels much more akin to Islam than Christianity. Islam isn't exactly the West, you know? :smalltongue:

The point, though, is that the earlier FF games' settings were very medieval-European-esque, but the more recent ones (starting with FF6, actually) have gone away from that. 6 was European-themed, but with a smattering of the Industrial Age, 7 was mildly futuristic from what I've seen of it, 8 was very modern, 10 was almost more Filipino than anything else... The settings have changed feel dramatically. On the other hand, there were definitely futuristic devices in 4 with the moon technologies, and things like the airships have been around since 1, so you can't say that these things' existence has been a late addition.

[huttj509]

You're being a bit defensive. I wasn't attacking anime fans, or saying that the games have gone downhill, but i was trying to point out a shift in sensibilities from game to game. The original Final Fantasy was based loosely on Dungeons and Dragons, and the next five or so games in the series reflected that, with a few changes in direction that i see as welcome, they gave the traditional a twist that made it interesting.

But when 7 hit, it felt a bit too different for my own personal tastes. I still played it. I didn't like the story or characters personally (not hate, just not like), but i could see the quality, someone at Square really cared about it. I could argue with you for hours that I feel Cecil Harvey is a WAY better Protagonist than Cloud Strife, but that's not what I'm here for, you can PM me if you want to do that.

I don't understand how you can say that there is no evidence to a change in direction, especially in marketing. Why shouldn't a company do a little pandering here and there? It's sound business. One day the games are popular cult classics, the next day brought to the forefront of gaming because they saw the bigger audience and a chance to explore new territory in gaming. Before FF7, you never saw people cosplaying as Cecil, or Bartz at cons.

And what relation does any of that have to anime as a medium, or the assorted fans thereof?

The issue is not with your statement of the direction shift, or the like/dislike of such. It's with the shorthand you used to characterize the shift in aesthetic direction. That shorthand has been used in other arguments, by other people, to narrowly stereotype a medium, artistic style, and diverse fanbase. As such, it tends to set off some warning lights.

And if after FF7 came out, you do see people cosplaying as characters from FF 1-6, what does that mean? Heck, I was Red Mage when my friends and I did all six FF 1 classes for a convention in 2002 ('03?). I can't speak to cons before FF 7 came out, because I wasn't going to cons then.

The instruction manuals for the older games did tend to have the character design artwork (probably varied depending on version, I know my V/VI anthology manual has assorted art, unfortunately in greyscale). There was more to go on than just the in-game sprites.

[Gnoman]

The most jarring thing about the franchise to me is the insane drop in difficulty between each generation. The original game was extremely, and enjoyably, difficult. II was either difficult or easy depending on how well you exploited the poorly concieved leveling system, while III was probably the hardest of the "trilogy" (by which I mean the three games released on that hardware.)

The second "trilogy", for the SNES, was far easier. IV was difficult to die in, barring a few bosses, V I can't really speak to (having played little of it ), and VI was the hardest of the three, but still not even half as challenging as I was.

VII had a good challenge through the first disk and part of the second, but a few easily-obtained Enemy Skills made the early game quite easy, while the insane damage output of Knights of the Round and other endgame summons made said endgame fairly trivial. Admittedly, you had to work hard to get some of that capability, but even without it, the final fights aren't particularly difficult. VIII, while otherwise a masterpiece, was so trivially easy that I didn't see the death scene until disc 4, simply by following the in-game junctioning suggestions. Once the junction system was mastered, it became a rare annoyance when a boss required more than a single attack to kill. IX, while beautifully made and very engaging thematically, was even easier than VIII for most of the game.

This trend was finally reversed in the fourth trilogy. X and X-II were at least as difficult as the SNES era games, and both approached the difficulty level of the original game at some points. XII, while less difficult overall, was also the most strategic of the series, with careful use of status effects being much more effective than brute-force damage.

Past that, I haven't played.

[huttj509]

This trend was finally reversed in the fourth trilogy. X and X-II were at least as difficult as the SNES era games, and both approached the difficulty level of the original game at some points. XII, while less difficult overall, was also the most strategic of the series, with careful use of status effects being much more effective than brute-force damage.

Past that, I haven't played.

Freaking Yunalesca. Her transitions always mess me up. Oh, make sure you zombie yourself so her instakill doesn't hit you, but if you're all zombied she cures you, so you need to have at least one person die, but cure the zombie so you can heal...and don't forget to set that back up before she repeats the cycle...

[Gnoman]

I didn't have too much trouble with Yunalesca. That flying thing that you fight with the airship? That was a nightmare.

[tyckspoon]

Freaking Yunalesca. Her transitions always mess me up. Oh, make sure you zombie yourself so her instakill doesn't hit you, but if you're all zombied she cures you, so you need to have at least one person die, but cure the zombie so you can heal...and don't forget to set that back up before she repeats the cycle...

Alternate method: Pre-charge Overdrives on all the Aeons. Chain summon and release until boss dies from 11 damage-limit-breaking hits.

(By the time I hit Sin, I just smacked him in the face with one Wakka-ball for like 50,000 damage and that was that. ProTip: Don't play with the Arena too much if you want the actual story bosses to be a fight.)

[Tebryn]

You're being a bit defensive. I wasn't attacking anime fans, or saying that the games have gone downhill, but i was trying to point out a shift in sensibilities from game to game. The original Final Fantasy was based loosely on Dungeons and Dragons, and the next five or so games in the series reflected that, with a few changes in direction that i see as welcome, they gave the traditional a twist that made it interesting.

No I'm not? You made a broad sweeping statement as fact with nothing to back it up, you were called on it. You don't even know if I like anime. The original Final Fantasy however was not based on Dungeon and Dragons. Not even loosely, unless of course you have sources to say it was. It was based loosely on Dragon Quest, a game by Enix, that is credited as establishing the Japanese Role Playing game. Dragon Quest was based off a lot of manga at the time as well as an RPG called Wizardry and the original Ultima game.


But when 7 hit, it felt a bit too different for my own personal tastes. I still played it. I didn't like the story or characters personally (not hate, just not like), but i could see the quality, someone at Square really cared about it. I could argue with you for hours that I feel Cecil Harvey is a WAY better Protagonist than Cloud Strife, but that's not what I'm here for, you can PM me if you want to do that.

See, that's much more extrapolation which is all anyone was asking.


I don't understand how you can say that there is no evidence to a change in direction, especially in marketing.


Well, I don't blame you for not understanding what I never said. I can't really speak for how they marketed the game. If you've got figures though that suggest that they somehow tapped into this "Anime Fan" market that was, before, not interested in Final Fantasy Games than I'd be more than happy to look over them.


Why shouldn't a company do a little pandering here and there? It's sound business. One day the games are popular cult classics, the next day brought to the forefront of gaming because they saw the bigger audience and a chance to explore new territory in gaming. Before FF7, you never saw people cosplaying as Cecil, or Bartz at cons.

Before Final Fantasy Seven I doubt there were a lot of anime conventions at least in the United States so I really can't make a claim on that. Then again, I don't think you could either. Again, you're making baseless claims without any real sound evidence. Final Fantasy Seven didn't bring video games to the "forefront" of anything. If anything it was probably Halo that did that though I really don't know. I don't think any -one- game pulled gaming from cult niche to a mainstream but a general progression of games and the people who played them as kids growing older.


You are however avoiding and what you mean exactly by "Anime Fan". If anything, the reason the game aesthetics changed was because it moved from the Super Nintendo to the Playstation. 1-6 were on Nintendo platforms while a lot of the games after Six were on Playstation and other sony platforms.



Well, 10 was quite religiously-themed, but Yevon feels much more akin to Islam than Christianity. Islam isn't exactly the West, you know? :smalltongue:

The point, though, is that the earlier FF games' settings were very medieval-European-esque, but the more recent ones (starting with FF6, actually) have gone away from that. 6 was European-themed, but with a smattering of the Industrial Age, 7 was mildly futuristic from what I've seen of it, 8 was very modern, 10 was almost more Filipino than anything else... The settings have changed feel dramatically. On the other hand, there were definitely futuristic devices in 4 with the moon technologies, and things like the airships have been around since 1, so you can't say that these things' existence has been a late addition.

It's not very Eastern either though, which is what I asked. :smalltongue:

[ArlEammon]

That's the statement that led to the current coversation. While it's not "They're all terrible." the statement seems...less than positive.



Name one FF game that takes place in an Eastern themed world.

FFX. What do I win?

[Tebryn]

FFX. What do I win?

Nothing. Final Fantasy Ten isn't particularly Eastern styled which is what the question was. It's just non-Western but so what? That wasn't the issue. It's got it's own setting. You're also late to the punch by a bit so the winner would be NecroRebel even if the point was valid. FF12 isn't really European/Western either but that again wasn't the question.

[tyckspoon]

No I'm not? You made a broad sweeping statement as fact with nothing to back it up, you were called on it. You don't even know if I like anime. The original Final Fantasy however was not based on Dungeon and Dragons. Not even loosely, unless of course you have sources to say it was.

The first few versions of the game used something close to Vancian-style spell slots for the magic system; it didn't get converted to the now-standard MP system until the GBA release. That's probably the most readily apparent D&D influence in it, aside from perhaps a few monster names and designs (there is a really nasty class of enemies that are pretty clearly Illithids, and I don't believe there is any Dragon Quest analogs for those to be inspired by.)

[Tebryn]

The first few versions of the game used something close to Vancian-style spell slots for the magic system; it didn't get converted to the now-standard MP system until the GBA release. That's probably the most readily apparent D&D influence in it, aside from perhaps a few monster names and designs (there is a really nasty class of enemies that are pretty clearly Illithids, and I don't believe there is any Dragon Quest analogs for those to be inspired by.)

True on the casting and the Mind Flayers (I believe they were even called that in our Localization) weren't really based on Dragon Quest, but Vacian Spell Casting isn't exactly D&D, considering it was in the books of Vance (hence the name) and the Illithids were based on the Deep Ones. Two things does not make something loosely based on another work. I wouldn't argue that they didn't take some things from other popular fantasy works however, just calling it loosely based on D&D ignores the fact that what works the FF team pulled from has been explored and explained by the original team at length. :smalltongue:

[zegram 33]

personally?
100% post FF7
the only really GOOD pre FF7 FF is FF6, and even that has...not aged particularly well. i finally got it in the recent FF sale on psn and its fun, but its just fun, whereas FF7 was genuinley incredible.

FF8 was good, i really liked the way you were paid by the garden, really
gave the feel that you were a secret agent for this company.

9 was a bit...i dunno, just bad. i couldnt tell you what it is, but whenever i try and play it i get the feeling that no-one in production liked doing it, it just seems to have no soul at all, if you get me.

X is fantastic, a truly great RPG in...pretty much every way. i started off annoyed at having to switch everyone in all the time, but i soon liked that, as it gets around the usual "pick three guys and use NO_ONE ELSE" rpg problem.

XI i've never played but looks decent

XII was a very, very good game that will forever be overshadowed by coming out alongside my favourite rpg ever (rogue galaxy, that game literally has it all)

XIII:its technically a good game, but has the same problem as 9, it doesnt have any sol at all, no little funny bits to break up the first 20 hours "walk along this corridor" technically very good, but not my cup of tea.

XIII-2:amazing. imo, its in the top three FF games, with XII and VII. i picked it up for £10 and i was so very suprised by how good it was. interesting characters, a good timetravel-based story, and it even add's a pokemon-style thing,what with catching every monster.
brought back really good memories of sitting around at my mates house chatting and playing pokemon red, good times.

so yeh, 100% post 7 for me, sinc it includes (for me) all of the top 5 games in the series (7,8,10, XII, XIII-2)

[Eldariel]

The first few versions of the game used something close to Vancian-style spell slots for the magic system; it didn't get converted to the now-standard MP system until the GBA release. That's probably the most readily apparent D&D influence in it, aside from perhaps a few monster names and designs (there is a really nasty class of enemies that are pretty clearly Illithids, and I don't believe there is any Dragon Quest analogs for those to be inspired by.)

Well, talking about FF1, the classes are also clearly OD&D inspired; you have Black Mage (Magic-User) complete with their proficiencies, White Mage (Priest) complete with blunt weapon proficiencies, Fighter with all of 'em, Thief who mostly exists to steal stuff since the game doesn't deal with traps that much, and Black Belt who obviously was based on the latter Monk (multiple attacks over one strong attack of the Fighter & al.). Red Mage was the only real outlier (kinda equivalent to latter multiclassed Mage/Priest/Fighter).

And yeah, the casting was Vancian and then you have D&D-style enemies by and large with Dragons being the big bad guys and all.

[Aidan305]

9 was a bit...i dunno, just bad. i couldnt tell you what it is, but whenever i try and play it i get the feeling that no-one in production liked doing it, it just seems to have no soul at all, if you get me.
Really? For me it's quite the reverse. 9, while not necessarily the best game in the series, is my favourite. It has a strong storyline, and stronger characters that are at least on a par with those of FF6. The graphics are cartoony, but that's a style that appeals to be and they maintained the esthetic throughout the game.

I'm not sure how much comparison can really be made between the games pre-6 and those post-6 as the genre has changed greatly over time. I would say that the earlier games have a better feel as "Final Fantasy" but that must, in part, be because they were what shaped our original definition of the series. 7, 8 and 9 should possibly stand with the earlier games rather than the later as they are closer to that style. Things didn't really start to change until 10, which was the first to have large differences from the games that came before it.

[DigoDragon]

really? huh, can you elaborate? I've just held that view for a long time, I've been wondering what other peoples thoughts were.

I think for me what makes the latter FF games a bit weaker is that the world settings are more modern than fantasy. The early games are definitely about swords and sorcery, while games like 7 and 8 were a bit odd to me when they had cars and spaceships.
Returning to a more fantasy setting in 9 was pretty good though. I'd say that was quite close to the roots I remember.

[DiscipleofBob]

Hm... if I were to rank the main FF's...

2 would be on the very bottom. I really liked the story, but the leveling mechanic was so horrible nothing else in the game could make up for it. It was completely unplayable.

Next would be 3 followed by 5. I was never a big fan of the job system, mostly because it was too easy to make a "wrong" choice with a job and then be stuck grinding forever. And to me the characters have less personality when they all have the same basic potentials.

I feel bad for listing 1 next, because it was the classic that started it all, but the games have just improved since then (2 and 3 notwithstanding). The characters can't have personalities, most of the dungeons are a slow grind, and except for bonus dungeons in the later remakes, there's not much to do besides the main quest. Not really it's fault though, it did define the RPG genre.

Next would be 7. Highly overrated IMO, but not as terrible as a lot of haters seem to indicate. I hated the materia system for the same reason I never liked the job systems in previous games. I loved the sidequests and limit breaks, and it gets points for at least trying with its storyline, though Sephiroth remains one of the least impressive video game villains to me to date. It also suffers from heavy sequel decay.

I liked a lot of FF8, and though the draw system is annoying at first, you get used to it eventually. (Anyone who claims that you have to draw 100 of every spell for every character as soon as it becomes available might as well say you have to grind to level 100 and master every available materia before the first boss). The world was a bit barren, and the plot was, at times, nonsensical, but it was overall a good game.

FF9 was wonderful and reutrned me back to the characters with defined in-game characteristics I'd been missing for so long. My only major gripe is that I don't think the intentional big heads/hands, small bodies thing really did it any favors. It would have been better if they stuck with regular dimensions like in 8.

FF4 gets major points for being the first video game I'd ever played, having a wonderful storyline, and a system that wasn't afraid to go, "Now all you get in this dungeon is your main fighter and some low-level wizards. Work with what you've got. Good luck." Definitely a far cry from the infinite customization of other Final Fantasies. I actually maintain that After Years is probably my favorite RPG of all time, but I'm not counting that here.

FF6 is great for reasons that everyone has said, but to be honest, my favorite of the main games is FFX. I love everything about that game. All the complicated stuff like the sphere grid and some of the sidequests were there, but completely optional so they never got in the way. I loved all of the characters. The combat system was by far the best out of all of the games and needs to be implemented again. And while I'm torn between 6 and X, when I'm objective, I find more flaws in 6. I was never a fan of the ATB system, and training up magicite is one massive, unwanted grind.



So, in order from least to most preferred.

10. 2
9. 3
8. 5
7. 1
6. 7
5. 8
4. 9
3. 4
2. 6
1. X

[GoblinGilmartin]

No I'm not? You made a broad sweeping statement as fact with nothing to back it up, you were called on it. You don't even know if I like anime. The original Final Fantasy however was not based on Dungeon and Dragons. Not even loosely, unless of course you have sources to say it was. It was based loosely on Dragon Quest, a game by Enix, that is credited as establishing the Japanese Role Playing game. Dragon Quest was based off a lot of manga at the time as well as an RPG called Wizardry and the original Ultima game.

See, that's much more extrapolation which is all anyone was asking.

Well, I don't blame you for not understanding what I never said. I can't really speak for how they marketed the game. If you've got figures though that suggest that they somehow tapped into this "Anime Fan" market that was, before, not interested in Final Fantasy Games than I'd be more than happy to look over them.



Before Final Fantasy Seven I doubt there were a lot of anime conventions at least in the United States so I really can't make a claim on that. Then again, I don't think you could either. Again, you're making baseless claims without any real sound evidence. Final Fantasy Seven didn't bring video games to the "forefront" of anything. If anything it was probably Halo that did that though I really don't know. I don't think any -one- game pulled gaming from cult niche to a mainstream but a general progression of games and the people who played them as kids growing older.


You are however avoiding and what you mean exactly by "Anime Fan". If anything, the reason the game aesthetics changed was because it moved from the Super Nintendo to the Playstation. 1-6 were on Nintendo platforms while a lot of the games after Six were on Playstation and other sony platforms.




It's not very Eastern either though, which is what I asked. :smalltongue:

Let's see....where to start?

Do you like anime?

If you're going to say that ff comes from dragon quest, and then say that dragon quest comes in part from Ultima, guess what? Ultima comes from Richard Garriot's d&d games, especially the early ones.


Final Fantasy Seven didn't bring video games to the "forefront" of anything.

Not what I said. I said that Final Fantasy 7 brought FINAL FANTASY to the forefront of gaming.

Let me clarify "Anime Fan". Remember, I originally said "particularly Vocal anime Fans", not "all anime fans and anyone who likes anime".

I was referring to the sort of people whose bedrooms look like the inside of anime stores, the people who religiously wear Deathnote shirts or Naruto headbands, carry around Deathnote notebooks, Buster Sword keychains, who can't step into a convention hall without being in full Bleach or FMA cosplay. The vocal Minority, the merchandise-collectors and proud displayers. I understand these people, I was one for a short while. They have a tendency to obsess. Again, minority, not everyone.

Does that help? Within every fanbase, there are the elite, the hardcore. In this case, it was super-hardcore anime fans that latched onto FF7.

You may not have been paying much attention at the time, but FF7 was a huge cultural phenomenon. It was a masterpiece of storytelling at the time, and a revolutionary game in it's series. MY own opinion besides.

[Tebryn]

Let's see....where to start?

Do you like anime?

If you're going to say that ff comes from dragon quest, and then say that dragon quest comes in part from Ultima, guess what? Ultima comes from Richard Garriot's d&d games, especially the early ones.

It's ok.

So it's loosely based on Dragon Quest which is loosely based on Ultima which is somewhat based on Chainmail and probably some 1st Ed which was loosely based on The Lord of the Rings which was loosely based on medieval fairy tales. The rabbit hole goes deep apparently. You'll note that I agreed they took ideas from D&D such as the Mind Flayer.



Not what I said. I said that Final Fantasy 7 brought FINAL FANTASY to the forefront of gaming.

I apologize for the misunderstanding.


Let me clarify "Anime Fan". Remember, I originally said "particularly Vocal anime Fans", not "all anime fans and anyone who likes anime".

I was referring to the sort of people whose bedrooms look like the inside of anime stores, the people who religiously wear Deathnote shirts or Naruto headbands, carry around Deathnote notebooks, Buster Sword keychains, who can't step into a convention hall without being in full Bleach or FMA cosplay. The vocal Minority, the merchandise-collectors and proud displayers. I understand these people, I was one for a short while. They have a tendency to obsess. Again, minority, not everyone.

Does that help? Within every fanbase, there are the elite, the hardcore. In this case, it was super-hardcore anime fans that latched onto FF7.


Well yes it does but I still don't see how you're getting there other than a bald assertion. Was the game popular with otaku? Ya but it was popular with a lot of other people to considering it broke sales records. You still haven't shown me how you got from Point A to Point B.


You may not have been paying much attention at the time, but FF7 was a huge cultural phenomenon. It was a masterpiece of storytelling at the time, and a revolutionary game in it's series. MY own opinion besides.

I know it was, everyone I knew was playing it. What does that matter though? You know what was also a huge cultural phenomenon? Chrono Trigger. The artist was Akira Toriyama. Ya know, the dude who made Dragon Ball?

[GoblinGilmartin]

Notice everything you listed in your rabbit hole explanation was western influence.

Okay. I really liked Chrono Trigger, the whole thing, story, characters, setting, art design. It was a really fun game. I never said a game with more apparent eastern ideals would be bad.

A lot of the problems I have with the newer FF games stems from the slow bent toward modernization. Stuff that brings up plot holes like "why do people still use swords?". Chrono trigger is placed in such a way that evrything is still fair game.

Tebryn, you and I? what are we arguing about? I lost track.

EDIT: Chrono Trigger was one game, not a whole series.

It's like I said. The VOCAL MINORITY. That's all you need. One group to pick something up and love it so much that it becomes widespread. I'm pretty sure at the time that there were more anime fans than final fantasy fans. But it was the small group of VOCAL anime fans who spread it out to the lesser of their anime loving peers, who then spread it out to the rest of previously unaware western culture, and bits of Eastern culture as well I'm sure, I just can't speak about them. It broke those sales records BECAUSE of the otaku getting it out there.

[Gnoman]

Next would be 3 followed by 5. I was never a big fan of the job system, mostly because it was too easy to make a "wrong" choice with a job and then be stuck grinding forever. And to me the characters have less personality when they all have the same basic potentials.



I don't understand this complaint. Both 3 and 5 allowed you to change jobs at-will, so it was literally impossible to get "stuck" with a "wrong" choice for any length of time.

[Tebryn]

Notice everything you listed in your rabbit hole explanation was western influence.

Ok? So what? So now Anime is a western thing? I don't get why that matters.


Okay. I really liked Chrono Trigger, the whole thing, story, characters, setting, art design. It was a really fun game. I never said a game with more apparent eastern ideals would be bad.



A lot of the problems I have with the newer FF games stems from the slow bent toward modernization. Stuff that brings up plot holes like "why do people still use swords?". Chrono trigger is placed in such a way that evrything is still fair game.

Cool, I'm glad we're dragging some explaination out of you finally.


Tebryn, you and I? what are we arguing about? I lost track.

You said that FF games after 7 were somehow trying to appeal to the "Vocal Anime Fan minority". And I asked you to prove where you got that idea from. You've ducked, dodged and generally ignored the question up to now so it's no wonder you lost track.


EDIT: Chrono Trigger was one game, not a whole series.

Ok? I was just pointing out one game that had direct anime influences made before FF7 to show that Square wasn't trying to tap into some yet untouched "Vocal Minority" group.


It's like I said. The VOCAL MINORITY. That's all you need. One group to pick something up and love it so much that it becomes widespread. I'm pretty sure at the time that there were more anime fans than final fantasy fans. But it was the small group of VOCAL anime fans who spread it out to the lesser of their anime loving peers, who then spread it out to the rest of previously unaware western culture, and bits of Eastern culture as well I'm sure, I just can't speak about them. It broke those sales records BECAUSE of the otaku getting it out there.

You can keep asserting that all you want but until you can back it up with figures I'm going keep laughing at it as nonsense.

[GoblinGilmartin]

I understand now.

One thing is, you've done little else but ask me why what I've said matters to the conversation.

I'll give you this. You are correct. I don't have any figures to back this up. So I can't prove i'm right. But, can you prove what I'm saying as false? I'm not saying I'm not wrong.

[Tebryn]

I understand now.

One thing is, you've done little else but ask me why what I've said matters to the conversation.

I'll give you this. You are correct. I don't have any figures to back this up. So I can't prove i'm right. But, can you prove what I'm saying as false? I'm not saying I'm not wrong.

I'm not trying to prove that it wasn't correct? I don't think it is but that's just my opinion. You're the one making the claim, you have the burden of proof here not me. I could probably put together an argument on how your statement makes no sense but...that's a different topic. Others have touched on it already as well. The games changing platforms from Nintendo to Sony and thus to a better system graphically speaking, and on a monetary level, helped them realize the art they've been putting in the journals all this time.

You can also look at "Anime Fans" and when anime became a main stream movement in the West and in Japan. The first Anime was created in the 1940's. The American Anime Fandom? 1970. However the main North American Anime Boom is thought to have started (by the money spent on foreign anime and manwha) in 2000. Three years -after- the release of Final Fantasy Seven in the Global Market. Going by the dates, either Square was late to the party pandering to "A vocal minority of Anime fans" or rather early. Thus rendering the argument on that point rather moot I think. Not denying that Final Fantasy Seven wasn't well recived and regarded as one of the best RPGs of it's time. Not arguing that a lot of con-goers picked up on the game though it was probably because of the former reasons and not because they were somehow pandered to. The first Anime Convention was in the 1980's, a few years before Final Fantasy 1 came out. My contention here is why they'd start so late, ten years after the first Final Fantasy, to appeal to the anime crowd when it was already popular (niche popular) in their home country for before they were a company.

[Terraoblivion]

Notice everything you listed in your rabbit hole explanation was western influence.

Did you really just say that FF7 broke the series by no longer sticking to source material that is either western or based on western source material? That seems like kind of a loaded assertion to make.

[Tebryn]

Did you really just say that FF7 broke the series by no longer sticking to source material that is either western or based on western source material? That seems like kind of a loaded assertion to make.

It'd be wrong to do so as well considering FF7 had a ton of western influence. Just like almost every other Final Fantasy to date save the aforementioned Ten. I'd even say 11 fits though it's an MMO and really isn't a standard Final Fantasy game.

[Tengu_temp]

The only pre-7 Final Fantasy games that are still good are 5 and 6. 1, 3 and 4 aged too badly to still be good, 2 was never good to begin with. However, 6 is clearly the best one from the whole series, leaving others in the dust.

The only bad post-7 Final Fantasies I played are 8 (which I finished) and 10 (which I didn't finish, got too bored). 7 is pretty good, Tactics is good if massively overrated by its fanboys, 9 has the greatest highs and lowest lows from the whole series but overall it's okay, 12 is okay, 13 is the favorite chew toy of people who never played it but overall it's pretty good. None of those games are as good as 6, though, with Tactics probably getting the closest.

EDIT: Oh yeah, I forgot about 11 and 14. Let's not mention those. Not only are they MMOs, not normal RPGs, but what I saw of 14 was... less than stellar. To put it mildly.

[GoblinGilmartin]

Did you really just say that FF7 broke the series by no longer sticking to source material that is either western or based on western source material? That seems like kind of a loaded assertion to make.

Broke the series? What? I didn't say that. I wasn't trying to imply that. It CHANGED, definitely, but I'd never call it broken.

[Tebryn]

Broke the series? What? I didn't say that. I wasn't trying to imply that. It CHANGED, definitely, but I'd never call it broken.

How did it -change-.

[VanBuren]

I understand now.

One thing is, you've done little else but ask me why what I've said matters to the conversation.

I'll give you this. You are correct. I don't have any figures to back this up. So I can't prove i'm right. But, can you prove what I'm saying as false? I'm not saying I'm not wrong.

That's not how the burden of proof works.

Let's say I claim that "some horses are unicorns". In order to back up my claim, I would have to provide evidence of a horse that is also a unicorn. Let's say I can't do that. Can others prove that my claim is false?

Theoretically, it could be done, I suppose. But is it reasonable? They'd have to check every horse that is, was, or ever would be and establish that none of them are unicorns.

That's why the burden of proof rests with the one making the assertion.

[Terraoblivion]

And since I've posted, I guess I can just as well give my view of the original question. I'm definitely on the post side, even if I think the distinction is entirely arbitrary. I'll be skipping 11 and 14 on account of not having played them and the fact that they're an entirely different genre.

1 is just utterly ancient and it really shows in a lot of ways, including a lot of weird bugs in things like damage calculations and similar caused by the limitations of the technology. I guess it's playable, but the age is really showing and it has nothing but historical interest really going for it. 2 is famously broken right from the start. I don't really know much about 3, but it seems to not do anything that 5 didn't do better.

4 is probably the most overrated game in the series. It's perfectly playable, but the gameplay doesn't do anything that 5 and 6 doesn't, while not really being any simpler or more straightforward in actual play. The story on the other hand is plain bad. The only bit of it with any kind of real thematic weight is Cecil's redemption, but that is pretty unremarkable as redemption stories go. Beyond that the game is mostly a sequence of more or less disjointed events that happen to give the player something to do, the cast eagerly jumping to sacrificing themselves as the first solution to any mildly threatening event and Kain going in and out of brainwashing. Even if you just want a straightforward story about heroes going out and saving the world, it's been done better elsewhere. Really, the only thing making the game remarkable is historical, specifically how much more writing they had than was the norm in JRPGs at the time. The remakes might improve on it, but I wouldn't know as I've only played the original.

5 aged a lot better. The story is just as superficial and shallow, but nobody tries to talk it up as something great and there's a whimsical charm to the setting that makes it enjoyable even if it doesn't even attempts any kind of complexity. The gameplay mostly holds up quite well. It's obviously dated and a different style from modern gameplay, but if you enjoy that kind of gameplay it works well and allows a lot of freedom to play it in different ways. Really, the only place I think the gameplay has problems is that the ATB system is a relatively poor framework, mixing the weaknesses of turn-based and real time systems rather than the strengths, but that's a problem for six games in the series, so I don't hold it particularly against this one. I don't feel any real desire to replay the game, but I'll give credit where it's due and FF5 is a game that might not be great, but works in a more modest manner.

6 on the other hand is one of the my favorites in the series and the first one I'd unreservedly recommend. While the graphics are obviously dated, there is an extremely strong sense of design to both the characters and the environments which is further enhanced by one of the best video game scores ever. It also manages to make the sprites quite expressive, which is a big part of making the story work as well as it does. The story is also the first really ambitious story in the series. I wouldn't call it the best, but it has aspirations of greatness, doesn't suffer from the incoherence that plagued some other games and managed one of the most emotional scenes in gaming history. The gameplay is a bit too convoluted for my taste and tends to trip my most paranoid side about doing well enough, but that's as much a flaw of me as of the game. It works decently enough if you can put up with the ATB system and either have the patience to work with optimizing heavily or can relax enough to just ignore that.

7 is in my opinion the second most overrated game in the series. While the story tries to go bigger and more ambitious than that of 6, it mostly manages to be kinda incoherent, something not helped along by several characters only getting their deal explained in optional areas. There is also less of a natural progression in the goals of the main characters through it and Sephiroth is a horrible villain thanks to a lack of a clear goal with half of what he does. The graphics is probably the biggest flaw though. While full 3D was sorta impressive at the time, once the technological novelty wears off, it becomes clear that the game engine can't portray any kind of interesting designs and it suffers in ugliness and extended cutscenes for common attacks as a result. Some of the backgrounds are really pretty, though. In terms of gameplay, it doesn't really do much new other than adding a lot of minigames that you're forced to play, all of which I personally found substantially less engaging than blitzball.

8 gets a lot of flak and while I'd hardly say I love it, I don't hate it as much as a lot of people do. The story isn't substantially less coherent than 7 until the very end and I don't mind the more sciency setting. I don't have much to say about it, though, since I didn't care much either way. The junction system kinda works, but unless you invest a lot of time in the cardgame it's still an annoying bother that encourages a lot of grinding for seemingly no logical purpose. Really, the biggest thing that stood out about the game for me is how much the graphics are improved over 7.

9 is 4 done right, at least as I see it. It has much of the same initial plot setup and a setting with many similarities, it is far more vibrant and alive and much more of the plot comes together to tell a story rather than a series of events. Also, unlike a lot of people I found the cartoonish artstyle charming and largely have fond memories of the game. The way of learning skills was also a welcome simplification for me after the last few games. Only real complaint I have is the ending and how characters who were revived barely had any HP left, making it a lot of work to get them back into the fight. Like 8, though, I don't really have strong memories about the game.

10 is where my memories start gaining clarity again and where each game starts getting increasingly divisive. My personal opinion is that it's alright. Lots of nice visuals for a game as early in the life cycle of the PS2 and while the voice acting might not have been great, I've found that having it added a lot to the games compared to earlier ones. It also finally killed the ATB system and replaced it with a turnbased one that I find far superior. The game has a lot of silly moments which clash heavily with how seriously they're taking the story, sometimes even in the same scene, such as every time Wakka talks in a serious scene. This along with some questionable gender politics holds the story back a fair bit, but I don't hate it by any means, though I still like it less than I did 6. The other major annoyances are minigames, that are thankfully mostly skippable, and the worst cut and pasting of monsters in the series.

12 very narrowly misses being my favorite game in the series. Ashe's story is told well with far less melodrama than is the norm in the series, her emotions are realistic and many of the themes it touches on are interesting, if not explored in any kind of real depth. The main villains are easily the best in the series, their goal is completely reasonable and rational and they have a sensible plan for how to achieve them. The setting is similarly strong and probably the only setting in the entire series that I could truly see more interesting stories getting told in without feeling tacked on. In terms of gameplay, it's a huge departure with the pseudo-MMO'y style and focus on preprogramming actions, but I found it quite engaging to play and versatile while not being overly finnicky. The biggest complaint is that as great as Ashe, Balthier, the villains and several side characters are, the rest of your party really isn't up to the same standard, nor are most of the secondary villains and the story as a whole suffers from having to give them attention. The game also does more padding with needless tasks than it really needs to, especially given that it would still be the longest game in the series without them.

13 is the game that beat 12 for the title of my favorite. I know this is a controversial position, but it comes down to the game doing a lot of things very right. To start with, the straight lines didn't bother me much as I saw the rails in most other games in the series anyway and I play Final Fantasy for the story, not for exploration or roaming free anyway. Similarly I don't agree with most of the common criticisms of the story, it's no more melodramatic than the rest of the series and only 6 and 12 even gets close to having a cast I like as much. I will readily concede that the ending not only sucks, but sucks in ways that undermines the entire rest of the game up until that point, which is by far the biggest black mark against the game in my book.

However, with that said, I consider the cast to be the most nuanced and cleverly designed in the entire series. On a surface level Lightning and Fang are incredibly badass, but once you look a bit closer you realize that all the characters except Fang are a twist on a common archetype in bad fantasy. Lightning being a brooding loner is the source of all her problems and while it might look cool, it's still harmful for her and causes her to be frankly a jerk to undeserving bystanders. Vanille seems to be the eternally cheerful, childish girl that is one of the three standard female characters in FF games, except that it's all a cover to hide suicidal expression. Hope being motivated to seek revenge by losing everything is not what makes him a hero, but rather a tantrum thrown by a desperate child who is lost in the world. Sazh is at once goofy comic relief and the most down to earth and frankly tragic character of the bunch. And Snow constantly insisting that everything working out if just you keep heroic spirit is really just trying to repress his worry, guilt and lack of direction. This is one of the things undermined by the ending.

The story itself is easily the most ambitious in the series. It touches on questions of fate and choice and goes a bit beyond just saying that you always have a choice, by saying that the choice is as much about how you conceive of and react to your fate. At least until the ending ****s it up. It's not Hemmingway and I certainly wouldn't call it deep, but it's not as sophomoric as the attempts at philosophy by way of reference attempted in 7. What is more interesting about the story is how it's told, as it relies heavily on non-verbal communication. Much of how the characters feel and think is communicated through expression and tone of voice, just like much of the story is communicated through the landscapes they travel through. That works on two levels. One is simply showing the impact nature and civilization has had on the landscape, marking a stark contrast between the cultured, controlled and frequently mechanical Coccoon and the lush wilderness of Pulse. The other is in the very structure of the game itself. The narrow, goal-oriented corridors of Coccoon mirrors the claustrophobic, controlled nature of the world and the fact that it exists to move towards a specific goal. Pulse on the other hand is open and aimless, mirroring the way nothing controls and directs it. It's still kinda basic stuff, but more than most mass market video games ever bother with.

Finally there are some miscellanea, like how pretty the visuals are and how it has my favorite score in the series after 6. Barty is also one of the better villains in the series, who is just as good at messing with the heroes as Kefka while having one of the most solid, best prepared plans I've seen in a long time, in video games and otherwise. He's not as interesting a character as the villains in 12, but his other qualities still make him the second best villain in the series in my opinion. I also enjoy the combat system, which is honestly a lot deeper than the detractors gives it credit for as some fiddling around with paradigms later in the game will show. It does have some major flaws in the form of extending the tutorial for too long, some stupid melodrama in the story and especially relying on a deus ex machina that negates everything that had come before for an ending. That part was absolutely wretched and I could easily see it ruining the game for people who otherwise liked it.

In any case 6, 12 and 13 are the three games in the series that I'm pretty unreserved in liking. They're not flawless and none of them would be able to make it on my list of top ten favorite games ever, but they're still very good and definitely worth playing. I'm more reserved about the other games, but the only ones I genuinely think aren't worth playing regardless of preferences are 1-4.

[Zeful]

Honestly, neither. Too many games on both sides are burdened with the terrible ATB system, which while it can be fun to play in small doses wears away the fun of actually playing very quickly. I'm probably never going to bother to finish 5-6 or 8 or even consider playing 7 because I do not play turn based RPGs to be tested on my reflexes, that's what action games are for.

[Alaris]

Well, I haven't played much 'before' FF7 sadly... but of what I have played, I can give my opinion:

Final Fantasy 4: Currently playing it, and it is quite fun. The combat system is simple, yet fun, and the story is 'epic' in proportions. So far.

Final Fantasy 6: That was very fun. A large cast of characters, most with their own distinct personalities and uses. And the story... oh the story. It was awesome. Curse you Kefka!

Final Fantasy 7: My first Final Fantasy. 'My' Final Fantasy. I loved it, in all it's '3D' Glory. A cast of characters, an interesting story, but DISTINCTLY different from pre-FF7.

Final Fantasy 10: Hmm... well, I enjoyed playing through it once. I'm never liable to do it again. It was a new take on Final Fantasy. I liked it...

Final Fantasy X-2: Aherm... I'll be in the minority here, but I liked it. Enough said.

Final Fantasy 12: Never finished it... but from what I know of the story... no. I did not like it. And I did not like the combat system either.

Final Fantasy Tactics: Loved it. An awesome story, an awesome combat system. It's in my top 3.

So... ultimately... well, I liked FF7 and back the best (FF7, FF6 and FF4). They were the most fun for me.

[The New Bruceski]

Final Fantasy 10: Hmm... well, I enjoyed playing through it once. I'm never liable to do it again. It was a new take on Final Fantasy. I liked it...


I think most of us who got to the plot like the game, but it takes a while for the plot to get rolling because they want to establish the new "normal" and how people are reacting to the end of Sin. Before the plot it's "wait, she's a rock star? It's just three girls bopping around Spira? And now there's hot springs wrestling? What game did I buy?" I can't blame anyone for being put off by that.

[Alaris]

I think most of us who got to the plot like the game, but it takes a while for the plot to get rolling because they want to establish the new "normal" and how people are reacting to the end of Sin. Before the plot it's "wait, she's a rock star? It's just three girls bopping around Spira? And now there's hot springs wrestling? What game did I buy?" I can't blame anyone for being put off by that.

Oh definitely. I understand people being put off by it. It's by no means the best game, and it's a step in a different direction from what FFX was. But I enjoyed it for what it was; a significantly more light-hearted game.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Can I say during? FF6-9 was my favorite grouping. And Tactics I guess.

[Ogremindes]

Can I say during? FF6-9 was my favorite grouping. And Tactics I guess.

Really 6 wasn't the end of an era but the beginning of one. Its sensibilities are much more aligned with what came after than what came before.

[Tengu_temp]

Honestly, neither. Too many games on both sides are burdened with the terrible ATB system, which while it can be fun to play in small doses wears away the fun of actually playing very quickly. I'm probably never going to bother to finish 5-6 or 8 or even consider playing 7 because I do not play turn based RPGs to be tested on my reflexes, that's what action games are for.

What. This might be the most insignificant reason to stop playing a game I've encountered yet. If you don't have the reflex of a sleep-deprived elephant then ATB won't make much difference because you will at most occassionally let the enemies move first, and that's not the end of the world because most FF games are piss-easy anyway. And in some of them, you can set the action to wait when you check menus.

[huttj509]

What. This might be the most insignificant reason to stop playing a game I've encountered yet. If you don't have the reflex of a sleep-deprived elephant then ATB won't make much difference because you will at most occassionally let the enemies move first, and that's not the end of the world because most FF games are piss-easy anyway. And in some of them, you can set the action to wait when you check menus.

Part of the problem I've found with ATB is that it can vastly reduce the value of character speed (which affects fill rate).

In a couple of the games, the ATB keeps filling while the attack animations play, and doesn't empty until after the attack animation's done. This tends to clump character attacks such that speed changes really don't matter until you something like double the others, since it doesn't matter if the ATB filled at the start, or finish of the other guy's attack, your attack's gonna happen (and empty the ATB) at the same time.

Then there's the "sitting round waiting for it to fill or the enemy to make an attack or something...anything..." periods which happen when the balance on timing is too far in the other direction.

[DiscipleofBob]

I don't understand this complaint. Both 3 and 5 allowed you to change jobs at-will, so it was literally impossible to get "stuck" with a "wrong" choice for any length of time.

Tell that to the boss I fought with four black mages.

Yes, that was when I was completely noobish to the concept, but even once I wised up, a later boss practically required I have a certain job grinded to a certain level in order to really stand a chance.

You don't switch from a level 5 fighter to a level 5 black mage. You have to build up each job individually to get the abilities, which can be frustrating if you suddenly realize you need to use a job you've been neglecting the entire game.

[Zevox]

Honestly, neither. Too many games on both sides are burdened with the terrible ATB system, which while it can be fun to play in small doses wears away the fun of actually playing very quickly. I'm probably never going to bother to finish 5-6 or 8 or even consider playing 7 because I do not play turn based RPGs to be tested on my reflexes, that's what action games are for.
Yeah, I can see that. I really dislike that system as well. The only game I've encountered where it didn't substantially reduce my enjoyment of the game is Chrono Trigger, and that's just because that game is actually as good as people say, to the point where I would often forget about the ATB entirely while playing it.

The fact that FF 10-2 was the first game with the ATB that I ever played probably impacts my extremely low opinion of it as well. FF 10 was my first Final Fantasy, and it's the only one since the oldest three that doesn't use the ATB, but a true turn-based system, which was actually a very good one and the strongest part of the game. Going from that into FF 10-2 without knowing anything about the ATB system in advance was an awful, jarring transition indeed.

[Zeful]

What. This might be the most insignificant reason to stop playing a game I've encountered yet. If you don't have the reflex of a sleep-deprived elephant then ATB won't make much difference because you will at most occassionally let the enemies move first, and that's not the end of the world because most FF games are piss-easy anyway. And in some of them, you can set the action to wait when you check menus.
The ATB system is terrible. It has no advantage over a purely turn based system-- like the CTB in Tactics or 10-- or a purely real time system-- like in Star Ocean. There is nothing it can do that other systems can't do better, making it's inclusion in most of the games after the existence of Tactics where the CTB system was originally introduced an act of stupidity on behalf of Square Enix.

It bothers me so much that yes, I turn every ATB game I play to Wait, and most of them have the option. It doesn't even begin to make up for how aggravating the system is to actually use. To put it in perspective; I dislike the ATB system so much that in FF8 I have more fun playing Triple Triad for everything, than fighting monsters for AP. And Triple Triad is stupendously easy.


Yeah, I can see that. I really dislike that system as well. The only game I've encountered where it didn't substantially reduce my enjoyment of the game is Chrono Trigger, and that's just because that game is actually as good as people say, to the point where I would often forget about the ATB entirely while playing it.

The fact that FF 10-2 was the first game with the ATB that I ever played probably impacts my extremely low opinion of it as well. FF 10 was my first Final Fantasy, and it's the only one since the oldest three that doesn't use the ATB, but a true turn-based system, which was actually a very good one and the strongest part of the game. Going from that into FF 10-2 without knowing anything about the ATB system in advance was an awful, jarring transition indeed.
Heh, I started with Final Fantasy Mystic Quest, and then went to Chrono Trigger. So I figure I had the best possible introduction to the ATB system as possible; and Chrono Trigger is one of the few games that did it well, and I still came to hate the system enough that if I found a game with a story even half as good that was fully turn based or fully real time, I would label it as a superior game to Chrono Trigger, the ATB system takes that much away from things it's attached to.

[The New Bruceski]

Tell that to the boss I fought with four black mages.

Yes, that was when I was completely noobish to the concept, but even once I wised up, a later boss practically required I have a certain job grinded to a certain level in order to really stand a chance.

You don't switch from a level 5 fighter to a level 5 black mage. You have to build up each job individually to get the abilities, which can be frustrating if you suddenly realize you need to use a job you've been neglecting the entire game.

I think you misunderstand what leveling jobs did in FF5. Aside from a few abilities (Red Mage's Doublecast, Knight's Two-Handed, everything that was a use ability like Hide, aside from the base one) every class starts out with full ability. A Black Mage can cast all Black spells for example, at full power. The abilities given at class-up let you give that ability to *other* classes. If you want a Monk casting Firaga you need to level BLM, but not to let the BLM cast Firaga.

I've played FF5 inside and out, and I'm not sure which boss requires a specific job (aside from Omega/Shinryuu, who require cheese of any flavor). Could you refresh my memory?

[DiscipleofBob]

I think you misunderstand what leveling jobs did in FF5. Aside from a few abilities (Red Mage's Doublecast, Knight's Two-Handed, everything that was a use ability like Hide, aside from the base one) every class starts out with full ability. A Black Mage can cast all Black spells for example, at full power. The abilities given at class-up let you give that ability to *other* classes. If you want a Monk casting Firaga you need to level BLM, but not to let the BLM cast Firaga.

I've played FF5 inside and out, and I'm not sure which boss requires a specific job (aside from Omega/Shinryuu, who require cheese of any flavor). Could you refresh my memory?

It's been a while so I may get some details wrong, and I apologize for that...

...but the second time I attempted the game (not the one where I had everyone leveling each class evenly at the same time, hence 4 Black Mages VS the Siren. THAT was a pain), there was some kind of airship or something that you fought in multiple parts. I couldn't defeat it for the life of me, so I looked up gamefaqs, and the only thing that was recommended was to bring a bunch of the class that could combine melee and spells (Mystic Knight or something?) and spam lightning attacks. I could switch to the class, but no one was really capabale of utilizing the strategy necessary.

[The New Bruceski]

Mystic Knights get Spellblade right at the start, so the hiccup there would either be if you didn't have any swords that worked with it or if you hadn't bought Thunder at a magic shop earlier (the black mage spell is used for them too, there isn't a separate Thunder Sword or anything). You can fly around to stores at that point but you'd have to know that's what the problem is. Rangers with Thunder Bows also work, and those are sold at C-Island. BLMs casting Thunder or breaking Thunder Staves (doing so casts Thundaga) works too. And that's just to hit their weak element, they're vulnerable to punches too.

That boss does tend to be a bit of a difficulty hump. It's frustrating any way you slice it, and boils down to "beat the non-main parts of the machine (when you don't get to see what you're targeting, so area attacks help) and then heal like mad between laser blasts." I can understand giving up there, I think I did as well my first time playing.

Just for clarity and avoiding of any mistaken bad blood, I'm not saying you're wrong to dislike it. I'm just a stikler for accuracy.

EDIT: and I can totally see having a problem of equipping a weapon that can't be used for Spellblade. Looking at the item in the inventory screen will say if it's compatable, but you have to know to look there. If I saw the ability greyed out and didn't know specific swords were needed, my thought would be "I don't have any Spellblade spells."

[DiscipleofBob]

Mystic Knights get Spellblade right at the start, so the hiccup there would either be if you didn't have any swords that worked with it or if you hadn't bought Thunder at a magic shop earlier (the black mage spell is used for them too, there isn't a separate Thunder Sword or anything). You can fly around to stores at that point but you'd have to know that's what the problem is. Rangers with Thunder Bows also work, and those are sold at C-Island. BLMs casting Thunder or breaking Thunder Staves (doing so casts Thundaga) works too. And that's just to hit their weak element, they're vulnerable to punches too.

That boss does tend to be a bit of a difficulty hump. It's frustrating any way you slice it, and boils down to "beat the non-main parts of the machine (when you don't get to see what you're targeting, so area attacks help) and then heal like mad between laser blasts." I can understand giving up there, I think I did as well my first time playing.

Just for clarity and avoiding of any mistaken bad blood, I'm not saying you're wrong to dislike it. I'm just a stikler for accuracy.

No offense taken. Like I said, it's been a long while, and all I remember was just not being able to beat that boss and quitting.

It's still a problem in job games where certain classes are all but necessary and the game isn't exactly great about letting you be flexible.

A clearer example of my problem win job system games, but one far easier, would be in Final Fantasy 3 when you basically need to turn everyone into Dragoons in order to beat a certain boss to be allowed to leave a certain area, but the necessary equipment is expensive, and you need a full set x4. Cue grinding.

Or there are the times in FF3 where you are forced to use a status effect on your party so that only casters can do anything.

I did like the systems in Tactics, FFX-2, and Disgaea though. Tactics mostly was just getting Ramza to Monk + Equip Armor and then breezing through with the special characters. FFX-2 let you dynamically switch classes mid-battle which I loved. Disgaea similarly mostly relied on the main classes.

[Seerow]

I did like the systems in Tactics, FFX-2, and Disgaea though. Tactics mostly was just getting Ramza to Monk + Equip Armor and then breezing through with the special characters. FFX-2 let you dynamically switch classes mid-battle which I loved. Disgaea similarly mostly relied on the main classes.


Point in case: Monk with equip armor is about as suboptimal as you can get (Hint: Heavy armor sucks in Tactics), yet you felt that getting to that point made the game a breeze.

[DiscipleofBob]

Point in case: Monk with equip armor is about as suboptimal as you can get (Hint: Heavy armor sucks in Tactics), yet you felt that getting to that point made the game a breeze.

:smallconfused:

I think we were playing a different Final Fantasy Tactics.

Any weakness the Monk might've had was offset just by equipping Heavy Armor.

Combined with Guts, there really wasn't a reason to get any other class for Ramza other than novelty, except maybe getting the Lancer's Ignore Height ability.

[Alaris]

Point in case: Monk with equip armor is about as suboptimal as you can get (Hint: Heavy armor sucks in Tactics), yet you felt that getting to that point made the game a breeze.

Seriously... what are you smoking? At least for the first 3/4ths of the game, Ranma as Monk w/ Equip Heavy Armor is absurd. He has hit points out the wazoo, and monk on it's own (Hamedo? And healing/revival) makes for a powerful class.

Add your own secondary ability and you've got one of the most powerful non-special-character combinations ever.

[Seerow]

Seriously... what are you smoking? At least for the first 3/4ths of the game, Ranma as Monk w/ Equip Heavy Armor is absurd. He has hit points out the wazoo, and monk on it's own (Hamedo? And healing/revival) makes for a powerful class.

Add your own secondary ability and you've got one of the most powerful non-special-character combinations ever.

No seriously. Heavy armor is bad. It might be okay for Chapter 1, but by early-mid chapter 2, cloth armor starts giving you bonus stats and is so much ridiculously better than Heavy armor it's not even funny. Bonus 1-3 MA/PA/Speed outclasses all of the HP gains you could ever want to a ridiculous degree.

The Monk's skill set is good, I'll give you that. It's very versatile, giving the character wiggle room to do a little bit of everything, which is great, especially for a new player. But the class chasis isn't anything special, and Equip Armor is about the most inefficient way to to use it in anycase. You're better off with Ramza!Squire, Geomancer, or Ninja with Monk Skill if that's what you want to do. Other potent combinations include just about any caster class setup (specific mentions go to Wizard as the chasis to put anything onto for raw magic stat; White Magic, Summons and Draw Out for well rounded skill sets, and Time Mage for amazing support and the ability to kill entire encounters with a couple of meteors). That's even without mentioning stuff like special characters or calculators.

[DiscipleofBob]

No seriously. Heavy armor is bad. It might be okay for Chapter 1, but by early-mid chapter 2, cloth armor starts giving you bonus stats and is so much ridiculously better than Heavy armor it's not even funny. Bonus 1-3 MA/PA/Speed outclasses all of the HP gains you could ever want to a ridiculous degree.

The Monk's skill set is good, I'll give you that. It's very versatile, giving the character wiggle room to do a little bit of everything, which is great, especially for a new player. But the class chasis isn't anything special, and Equip Armor is about the most inefficient way to to use it in anycase. You're better off with Ramza!Squire, Geomancer, or Ninja with Monk Skill if that's what you want to do. Other potent combinations include just about any caster class setup (specific mentions go to Wizard as the chasis to put anything onto for raw magic stat; White Magic, Summons and Draw Out for well rounded skill sets, and Time Mage for amazing support and the ability to kill entire encounters with a couple of meteors). That's even without mentioning stuff like special characters or calculators.

Oh, there's plenty of more broken combinations, I'll grant you that.

But Monk + Equip Armor is still enough to sweep through the entire game.

[Seerow]

Oh, there's plenty of more broken combinations, I'll grant you that.

But Monk + Equip Armor is still enough to sweep through the entire game.

My point was that Monk+Equip Armor is about as suboptimal as you can get, and even despite that it was enough for him to go through the game feeling overpowered; not that it wasn't good enough to play the game with.

So uh... I guess you agree with me?

[DiscipleofBob]

My point was that Monk+Equip Armor is about as suboptimal as you can get, and even despite that it was enough for him to go through the game feeling overpowered; not that it wasn't good enough to play the game with.

So uh... I guess you agree with me?

Sure, we'll go with that.

Now give me 15 silver points.

[Seerow]

Sure, we'll go with that.

Now give me 15 silver points.

Gotta beat me up first.

[Eldariel]

Gotta beat me up first.

Not as easy as you'd think (www.youtube.com/watch?v=0oRpCjKoPps#t=13m30s)

[Gnoman]

Or there are the times in FF3 where you are forced to use a status effect on your party so that only casters can do anything.


Haven't got far enough in 3 to address your former point, but this isn't really a big deal. Those dungeons tend to be fairly easy (note that the tower only needs Frog to enter, you can remove it immediately afterward), and you can shuffle spells around at-will. Your normally-melee characters won't be as good at magic as the normal ones (due to stat growth), but they'll do fine.

I begin to suspect that your problems with the job-based games was due more to lacking a full understanding of the system than a flaw in that system. (No insult intended, there's so much that is simply hidden or poorly explained that plenty of people get confused.)

[Tengu_temp]

Weird, I don't remember ever being forced to switch to different classes in Final Fantasy 5. I strong-armed my way through the whole game with the classes I wanted, not the classes the game required of me, with no grinding except at the very end on my first playthrough (to get enough classes on max rank for unclassed characters).

I never really used monks in FFT, except as stepping stones to other classes. I tend to just go with Ramza as squire or knight, and later ninja for long enough to grab dual swords - it's a simple combo that will carry you through the whole game. Unique characters in general tend to have primary classes so strong that you rarely need to switch to anything else - the only exceptions are Mustadio, who makes a great chemist after you grab all his shooting skills, and Rafa and Malak, who just suck.

[Gnoman]

Mustadio's extremely powerful with dips in Knight (For the break skills) and Archer (for Concentrate).

[Raimun]

Now days, I don't really like to play Final Fantasy. The classic "turn based, everyone stands at one spot"-combat just doesn't engage me anymore.

I haven't played any FFs since X, because they just look weird, so I can't really speak of them.

But my most favorite FFs are the three PS1-titles, VII, VIII and IX.
Special mention should go to VIII. I still think the junction system was the best character-development system/combat system of the whole series. Limit Breaks were fun too. So varied, from Squalls Renzokuken to Selphie's The End.

X is kinda hanging with them sometimes.

I also kinda liked the IV, V and VI but not as much as the three PS1-titles. I only played them on PS1, when they were re-released.

I've tried I but didn't feel like playing it too long. II and III are unknown to me.

For me, Final Fantasy is what I played on PS1 when I was a teen. I still think they had some great music.

[T.G. Oskar]

It's a discussion probably ended two pages ago, but Final Fantasy pretty much has a BIG load of D&D influence.

The job system is based not off D&D, but from Wizardry. Note how the Fighter, the Thief, the White Mage and the Black Mage were the first classes, alongside the Monk and the Bard. Wizardry also has the Fighter, the Thief, the Priest and the Mage, though it lacks a Monk until later; the Bishop ends up acting like the Red Mage, except that it cannot equip better armor or swords. The upgrades gained later were definitely based on how you'd acquire the more advanced classes afterwards (specifically, Fighter -> Knight is one of the ways you could go with Fighter -> Lord, whereas the Thief -> Ninja was somewhat represented with Fighter/Mage -> Samurai). The reason why it's less D&D and more Wizardry is because of the class upgrade, whereas basic D&D only had the Bard as an example of a "prestige class". The Monk somewhat represents the D&D Monk, but the Red Mage is definitely a rip-off of Wizardry's Bishop.

The monsters, on the other hand...have you seen the monsters in the game? You have pretty much the ENTIRE Monster Manual there! For example: goblins are traditional Western RPG monsters. Then you get to the Sahuagin. Then you get to Mindflayers which, IIRC, are product identity for Dungeons & Dragons. Then you get Lich (based on a Lich, granted), Kraken (based on the mythical Kraken, granted), then...you get Kary (http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Marilith) (also known as the Marilith (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marilith)), which has no other reference but D&D. But the mother of all references is having Tiamat, of all monsters, as one of the Four Fiends of Chaos (http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Tiamat). No, it's not the World Serpent from whose the world was created, according to the Babylonians; it's the well-known five-headed Queen of the Chromatic Dragons. That's an even LARGER D&D reference than you'd think. Judge yourselves (http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_Final_Fantasy_Enemies) and see if you wouldn't get the Monster Manual (from ANY Edition, save perhaps the 4th) out of it. Heck, the Beholders were in Final Fantasy Mystic Quest, except that they had a Reflect effect rather than an Antimagic Cone.

Again, a bit late for the discussion, but I felt I really needed to clear this out. So as to leave on-topic: I incline towards the 16-bit era, I don't mind FFII that much (after all, to do so would be to claim I loathe the SaGa games, which are the spiritual successors of the game system), I don't find FFVII so bad but it's not one of my faves, and I refuse by all means to qualify FFVI because I know its shortcomings but that would be unfair to a very special game. The one game that comes incredibly close is Final Fantasy Tactics. I have no qualms over FFVIII (I don't see it's a bad game), and I loathe FFIX even though I praise Hiroyuki Ito's direction (and hope that he ends up directing FFXV in hopes of being a wonderful game). Oh, and that, even though I don't like FFIX, it seems all Final Fantasy games that are multiples of 3 are somehow really memorable.

[Tebryn]

The monsters, on the other hand...have you seen the monsters in the game? You have pretty much the ENTIRE Monster Manual there!

Probably because a lot of the monsters from the Monster Manual are from a lot of different sources?


For example: goblins are traditional Western RPG monsters.

They're also folklore creatures from various forms.


Then you get to the Sahuagin. Then you get to Mindflayers which, IIRC, are product identity for Dungeons & Dragons.

These two are probably taken from D&D, but I don't think anyone is arguing that some monsters from D&D weren't used in Final Fantasy Games. The contention was that FF was based loosely on D&D which is...as far as the creators are concerned not one of the sources they drew on for their game.


Then you get Lich (based on a Lich, granted), Kraken (based on the mythical Kraken, granted), then...you get

Both mystical creatures. The Lich taken from various mythologies and Robert E. Howard's work and Clark Ashton Smith's works as well. Which is where Gygax got it. The Kraken is as old as the first time someone found a Giant Squids tentacle washed up on shore.


Kary (http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Marilith) (also known as the Marilith (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marilith)), which has no other reference but D&D.

Have you seen many Hindu/Buddhist demons? A great many of them (even some of the gods) are multi-limbed women and men with the coils of serpents. Using the same name however can't be argued. Just as with the Mind Flayer, it's likely they ripped a monster from D&D.


But the mother of all references is having Tiamat, of all monsters, as one of the Four Fiends of Chaos (http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Tiamat). No, it's not the World Serpent from whose the world was created, according to the Babylonians; it's the well-known five-headed Queen of the Chromatic Dragons. That's an even LARGER D&D reference than you'd think.

Well it would be save for a few things. Tiamat is the mother of serpents and Dragons in the Enuma Elish, so the mythological precedent is there. The multi-headed depiction of her comes from various depictions of multi-headed serpents. the Hydra for example comes to mind. Later games in the FF series have dropped the multi-headed form as well.


Judge yourselves (http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_Final_Fantasy_Enemies) and see if you wouldn't get the Monster Manual (from ANY Edition, save perhaps the 4th) out of it. Heck, the Beholders were in Final Fantasy Mystic Quest, except that they had a Reflect effect rather than an Antimagic Cone.

No one, again, is saying that D&D monsters don't show up in some Final Fantasy Games. However the whole "Look at the monsters here! They're in D&D too!" isn't a particularly convincing argument. A lot of the monsters, as I said above, found in D&D are taken from mythologies around the world. The original Demigods and Deities books had stat blocks for a ton of fictional pantheons from other works at the time which had to be removed due to copyright infringement. A few iconic monsters does not make a game loosely based on something. :smalltongue:

[T.G. Oskar]

Probably because a lot of the monsters from the Monster Manual are from a lot of different sources?

[..]

They're also folklore creatures from various forms.

One thing is to use monsters from different sources, and another is to have many monsters that are true to the D&D versions. Just by looking at the A, you have the Ankheg, which is by far ripped straight from the Monster Manual. The Basilisk, as presented, is very much a lizard, where the mythical basilisk has more in common with a serpent than a lizard. Or that the dragons in the game are pretty true to their D&D origins (Blue Dragons shooting electricity, whereas nowadays they're associated with water; White Dragons using frost, when nowadays they're associated with Holy). Or that the Ochu has much in common with the Otyugh. Those are more than several coincidences.


These two are probably taken from D&D, but I don't think anyone is arguing that some monsters from D&D weren't used in Final Fantasy Games. The contention was that FF was based loosely on D&D which is...as far as the creators are concerned not one of the sources they drew on for their game.

It's not just some. It's quite a lot, actually. You might argue that they took Mythril from Lord of the Rings, but you can't say the same about the Sun Blade, for example. I can give you that it might be a stretch to treat the game's Flame Sword as D&D's Flametongue, but it's quite the possibility.


Both mystical creatures. The Lich taken from various mythologies and Robert E. Howard's work and Clark Ashton Smith's works as well. Which is where Gygax got it. The Kraken is as old as the first time someone found a Giant Squids tentacle washed up on shore.

I didn't even placed the Kraken as part of the examples of how D&D influenced the game. I distinctly mentioned it was based on the mythical Kraken.


Have you seen many Hindu/Buddhist demons? A great many of them (even some of the gods) are multi-limbed women and men with the coils of serpents. Using the same name however can't be argued. Just as with the Mind Flayer, it's likely they ripped a monster from D&D.

From what I can reckon, that might have been the influence for the Marilith, but the name alone is too much of a coincidence.


Well it would be save for a few things. Tiamat is the mother of serpents and Dragons in the Enuma Elish, so the mythological precedent is there. The multi-headed depiction of her comes from various depictions of multi-headed serpents. the Hydra for example comes to mind. Later games in the FF series have dropped the multi-headed form as well.

I know of the tale. Didn't I frickin' mention a bit of the Babylonian tale of how the world was created? Just a passing reference, but I know where the name "Tiamat" comes from. The game has the Hydra as a common enemy, and nowhere does it say that Tiamat is simply a buffed-up Hydra. The appearance (five heads, whereas the game's Hydra monsters have six) alone is a dead giveaway. The fact that she's an enemy while Bahamut is also there? Bahamut, who doesn't look at all like the depiction in Arab mythos, but instead looks like a frickin' dragon as well, and not only that, but the king of all dragons?


No one, again, is saying that D&D monsters don't show up in some Final Fantasy Games. However the whole "Look at the monsters here! They're in D&D too!" isn't a particularly convincing argument. A lot of the monsters, as I said above, found in D&D are taken from mythologies around the world. The original Demigods and Deities books had stat blocks for a ton of fictional pantheons from other works at the time which had to be removed due to copyright infringement. A few iconic monsters does not make a game loosely based on something. :smalltongue:

There are several coincidences, in between monsters based off the Monster Manual versions (the flans are dead giveaways for the oozes), to materials within the game (to craft Excalibur, which is not a D&D reference, you need Adamantite (not Adamantium, which would be a Marvel reference thus, and it would imply an alloy, not a naturally occurring substance). Calling a diamond "adamantite" would be too obscure of a reference to apply, and definitely wouldn't be the work of a smith, to NPCs...

...to one of the co-designers claiming that he wanted the game's battle elements to be as close to D&D as possible (http://www.1up.com/features/deal-square-enix-akitoshi-kawazu), despite the game being also based on Dragon Quest and Wizardry (and to an extent, Ultima).

Is it evidence enough?

[DiscipleofBob]

I'm not denying that Dungeons & Dragons had a significant impact on the development of Final Fantasy, but I'd be wary about saying that any of the monsters were "ripped off" from D&D.

Dungeons & Dragons has an unfortunate tendency to take a creature from mythology or an intellectual property and then try to copyright them and claim they're the only ones allowed to use them.

Example: For a while, halfings were called hobbits. The Tolkien estate had no problem with this, until Wizards tried to bring a different publisher to court for using the term "hobbit" claiming it was copyrighted to D&D. The Tolkien estate was understandably upset and forbade them from using the term anymore, so they had to come up with "halfings" instead.

D&D did not invent every monster in its manual.

[Terraoblivion]

Example: For a while, halfings were called hobbits. The Tolkien estate had no problem with this, until Wizards tried to bring a different publisher to court for using the term "hobbit" claiming it was copyrighted to D&D. The Tolkien estate was understandably upset and forbade them from using the term anymore, so they had to come up with "halfings" instead.

Given that halflings were called halflings for at least a decade before Wizards of the Coast bought TSR, I rather doubt that story. Maybe TSR did it, but definitely not Wizards of the Coast. I'd be more inclined to believe that as the brand grew they decided to avoid a potential lawsuit and heated tempers by changing the name voluntarily, though.

[Morbis Meh]

...I condemn all of you, you have tempted me into picking up FFX-2 again (friend borrowed game never got it back then disapeared off of the face of the planet) and I will now subject myself to the bubbly upbeat whims of three dense main characters all because I have some memory of fondness for the combat system.... :smalltongue:

[huttj509]

...I condemn all of you, you have tempted me into picking up FFX-2 again (friend borrowed game never got it back then disapeared off of the face of the planet) and I will now subject myself to the bubbly upbeat whims of three dense main characters all because I have some memory of fondness for the combat system.... :smalltongue:

"Gosh, Yuna sure scores a lot." "Yes...yes she does..."

(Whenever you get an item it gives a message "Yuna scored a potion!" or what-have-you.)

[GoblinGilmartin]

4 is probably the most overrated game in the series. It's perfectly playable, but the gameplay doesn't do anything that 5 and 6 doesn't, while not really being any simpler or more straightforward in actual play. The story on the other hand is plain bad. The only bit of it with any kind of real thematic weight is Cecil's redemption, but that is pretty unremarkable as redemption stories go. Beyond that the game is mostly a sequence of more or less disjointed events that happen to give the player something to do, the cast eagerly jumping to sacrificing themselves as the first solution to any mildly threatening event and Kain going in and out of brainwashing. Even if you just want a straightforward story about heroes going out and saving the world, it's been done better elsewhere. Really, the only thing making the game remarkable is historical, specifically how much more writing they had than was the norm in JRPGs at the time. The remakes might improve on it, but I wouldn't know as I've only played the original.


I take issue with this. Is your opinion coming from just the original american version? Because I'll admit, it got chopped to pieces on the trip overseas. The final product there failed to mention that Cecil had been effectively raised by the king of baron, he was a father figure who betrayed him (he thinks).

Any Re-makes that have been made have just added back in what was originally cut out. (except for the DS version, that also added new stuff). I'd gladly have a PM battle with you.

[Eldariel]

...I condemn all of you, you have tempted me into picking up FFX-2 again (friend borrowed game never got it back then disapeared off of the face of the planet) and I will now subject myself to the bubbly upbeat whims of three dense main characters all because I have some memory of fondness for the combat system.... :smalltongue:

My experience with FFX-2 combat system is that you can press "Attack" every time it's your turn and pretty much finish the game.

[Morbis Meh]

My experience with FFX-2 combat system is that you can press "Attack" every time it's your turn and pretty much finish the game.

I said memories of fondness for all I know my mind is trolling me something fierce :smalleek: also don't they say that time makes the heart grow fonder? It's been 8-9 years since I played this game and most turn based RPG's have lost their fun for me since I started playing DnD

[The New Bruceski]

My experience with FFX-2 combat system is that you can press "Attack" every time it's your turn and pretty much finish the game.

Your power relative to the enemies kinda varies wildly. Sometimes you can do that just fine and then you run into a rare enemy for the area who stomps on your face. Early on I encountered a Tonberry long before I was supposed to, and the only way I managed to beat it was by shifting everyone's classes around so that they could each burn through their mp as a white mage rezzing and healing. But later on things do tend to become pre-setup on classes or "small grid so you can uber-class quickly" unless you choose to do otherwise.

[Terraoblivion]

I take issue with this. Is your opinion coming from just the original american version? Because I'll admit, it got chopped to pieces on the trip overseas. The final product there failed to mention that Cecil had been effectively raised by the king of baron, he was a father figure who betrayed him (he thinks).

Any Re-makes that have been made have just added back in what was originally cut out. (except for the DS version, that also added new stuff). I'd gladly have a PM battle with you.

While I can't remember for sure, I'm pretty sure it was a fan translation of the original Japanese version. What I can say is that it was a decade after the game was released and that I'm not American, so it could be either. In any case, Cecil's relationship with the king is kind of irrelevant in the face of a strangely suicidal party, random monster worlds appearing out of nowhere, kingdoms that were never mentioned before and an ancient, dead lunar civilization that doesn't really matter to the larger narrative cropping up in the last few hours of the game. The story of the game being a mess is far more than just Cecil's personal story and relationship with the kingdom of Baron, which is the one part of the game's story that kinda works.

[GoblinGilmartin]

While I can't remember for sure, I'm pretty sure it was a fan translation of the original Japanese version. What I can say is that it was a decade after the game was released and that I'm not American, so it could be either. In any case, Cecil's relationship with the king is kind of irrelevant in the face of a strangely suicidal party, random monster worlds appearing out of nowhere, kingdoms that were never mentioned before and an ancient, dead lunar civilization that doesn't really matter to the larger narrative cropping up in the last few hours of the game. The story of the game being a mess is far more than just Cecil's personal story and relationship with the kingdom of Baron, which is the one part of the game's story that kinda works.

Okay, I see what you mean, still though, It's like in a lot of older games, they can't really express the full story in game, and there is some supplemental knowledge that gives a deeper understanding of the story.

I'm not really sure about your "strangely suicidal" comment. Yang sacrificed himself, because the tower of Bab-il exploded, I'm not sure about the stories logic, but palom and porum had to stop the walls, there might have been a better way, but they were under pressure. Tellah was distraught, and thought he could take out Golbez. They sacrificed themselves because of a sense of loyalty to the team. I suppose it does happen humorously frequently.

And besides the deaths (however temporary), one of the things I like about 4 is that it at least uses the characters, they all come in and out of the story as necessary, unlike some other games that just drag around the characters that aren't plot important at any given time.

[MLai]

Regarding FF7 at its time:
Perhaps your memory is colored by having been an otaku, but FF7 wasn't popular because it had JPN-pop elements. Rather, JPN-pop elements gained a foothold in the West because of FF7 (among other things that came in waves later on).
You don't remember how revolutionary FF7 was, for the console market? It was the first console RPG that used 3D to any degree. And whereas just making pretty 3D cutscene would have been enough to make it popular, Square didn't stop there, but incorporated it into the entire game.
It doesn't matter if it looked like chibi anime, or Jack Kirby art. FF7 would have been big regardless. It was PS1's flagship.

Regarding FFT:
I didn't play that game for the gameplay, though it was delightfully challenging. I played that game for the story, and I only wish I can play it again for the PSP English localization on say, my PS3.
I guess different ppl play that one for their own reasons. I basically scraped and clawed past my battles, reloading many many times, completely oblivious to haxx class combos... until I reached my savior El Cid. From there I just smashed thru the game and enjoyed the story while he did all the work (he pretty much sacrificed himself for me, soloing the last boss while everyone else was unconscious).