Did durkon know?

[Red Lantern]

When he was being chummy with malak, do you think durkon knew he was apparently a vampire? If so would he as a cleric have a problem with that?

[Werbaer]

If so would he as a cleric have a problem with that?
I jess hate them undead so (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0016.html)

[Red Lantern]

I jess hate them undead so (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0016.html)

ow, great reply and one of the longest rteach backs I've sen to answer a question. Thanks.

So, durkon didn't know...?

[Chantelune]

Probably not. Durkon is a bit dull at times, especially when it's about his friends. Eck, he didn't even want to consider that Malack joined (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0865.html) the linear guild despite Tarquin doing so.

I don't even expect him to believe that Malack is a vampire if told until he sees him draining someone in front of him. :smalltongue:

[Gift Jeraff]

Durkon couldn't even recognize a cleric of his god's rival.

[Rakoa]

Durkon is not the most clerical of Clerics. Kind of stupid, really.

[Bulldog Psion]

Durkon's a nice guy, but his situational awareness is close to zero.

So no, I don't think he knew or even suspected Malack is a vampire.

[Red Lantern]

Durkon is not the most clerical of Clerics. Kind of stupid, really.

Yeah, I really have to object to this characterization.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0352.html

[pollyanna]

Durkon is a lovable character, but he *is* Lawful Good. Doesn't that basically make him dumb by default?

[Carl]

Durkon is a lovable character, but he *is* Lawful Good. Doesn't that basically make him dumb by default?

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GoodIsNotDumb

[pollyanna]

Heh, I love TVtropes, and i do agree that Good itself isnt *always* dumb, but in my not so humble opinion, *Lawful* Good is another story. Any intelligence a being might possess is watered down to the point of uselessness when one is constrained to zealotry.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LawfulStupid hehe ;)

[Tragak]

That's not Durkon, that's Miko

[pollyanna]

Well Miko was sort of the extreme of that Templar mentality, she was viciously stupid, whereas Durkon is lovably stupid.

Again, i don't wanna pick on poor Durkon, who is one of my favorite characters, but he *is* the guy who is afraid of trees ;)

[Tragak]

Well Miko was sort of the extreme of that Templar mentality, she was viciously stupid, whereas Durkon is lovably stupid.

Again, i don't wanna pick on poor Durkon, who is one of my favorite characters, but he *is* the guy who is afraid of trees ;)

OK, you got me there :smallsmile:

[pollyanna]

Ummm this is a forum, arent we gonna stubbornly debate this forever? ;)

hehe nobody on the internet has ever conceded a point to me before... now i am paranoid :D

[KillianHawkeye]

Sadly, Durkon's clerical powers don't give him any way of recognizing undead creatures (without going out of his way to prepare and cast the spell detect undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectUndead.htm)). He is forced to rely on his own knowledge and powers of detection/deduction, which as everybody has already mentioned, are not particularly well-trained.

[Incom]

It is quite offensive to call every member of an entire alignment "stupid". Not every LG person is a zealot--and for that matter, I'd argue that zealotry isn't necessarily stupidity.

Or, more simply: Look at Roy.


Yeah, I really have to object to this characterization.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0352.html

Hah, I just noticed V is smirking in that third-to-last panel. He knows what's coming.

As for Durkon, I'd like to think he put some ranks in Knowledge: Religion since that incident with Hilgya (and even after he found out she served Loki they still got along alright until she brought up her marriage). 'Course, I could be wrong.

[pollyanna]

It is quite offensive to call every member of an entire alignment "stupid". Not every LG person is a zealot--and for that matter, I'd argue that zealotry isn't necessarily stupidity.

Or, more simply: Look at Roy.


Roy isn't particularly smart at anything other than tactics, fighting, and leadership. His lawful Goodness in many cases prevents him and/or his companions from taking the most expedient path to their goals. If the world is at stake, worrying about the "law" and letting it get in the way of the greater good is indeed very stupid in my opinion.

And Roy is probably the smartest lawful good character I've seen, but he still lets his alignment stop him from doing the intelligent thing many times

[KillianHawkeye]

However, Roy canonically has a very high Intelligence score.

[pollyanna]

true, roy isnt actually stupid really, its just that his alignment forces him to do stupid things. roy is obviously intelligent, but is limited by his lawfulness and self righteousness

[Tev]

Alignment doesn't force him to do anything. Caring about the world he lives in is in long term definitely NOT stupid.

And I don't see how other alignments can pass your not-stupid test. You're just claiming that everyone with a firmly set goal is stupid, because he is too stupid to not be able to do anything he wants, he is so stupid that he is limited by the thing he chose! And if he wants to achieve he must do stupid things! Therefore he is stupid!

tl;dr being limited isn't stupid, it's called being limited.

edit: on topic - I think it's the same as Hilgya situation, Durkon just isn't that observant.

[Incom]

Name an example of Roy doing something stupid because of his alignment.

Only two arguable examples I can come up with were invading the bandit camp--which wasn't stupid, just risky, and it worked out just fine in the end--and attacking Xykon, who he had defeated before and reasonably figured he could defeat again.

I'd argue that Roys lawfulness has even helped him in certain instances--eg. it helped him make the call not to break out of the EoB jail, which turned out to be a good idea as he got everyone out totally legally and got Ian and Geoff freed(ish).

But we're getting off-topic. Hm.

[pollyanna]

I'd argue that Roys lawfulness has even helped him in certain instances--eg. it helped him make the call not to break out of the EoB jail, which turned out to be a good idea as he got everyone out totally legally and got Ian and Geoff freed(ish).

But we're getting off-topic. Hm.

I don't wanna get off topic, and I'm sorry if i derailed anything, but i just have to say that not breaking out of the Empire's jail was not a good call imo. Roy's mission is to kill the lich and stop the gate crisis. by involving himself in other matters, and insisting on doing things lawfully, he has given Tarquin all the cards. The problem with lawful good heroes is that they feel the need to get involved in all sorts of irrelevant situations because they feel the need to oppose all evil, instead of the evil that matters. of course, this is great for the purposes of the narrative (and gettin XP :D) but from a purely logical point of view is flawed and arguably a waste of time


Name an example of Roy doing something stupid because of his alignment.


I'm gonna go through all the comics and find some more points to back up my arguments. I think we may have some differences on our interpretations of alignment, but honorable beings can differ, of course :) I just like these kinda debates :)


Alignment doesn't force him to do anything. Caring about the world he lives in is in long term definitely NOT stupid.

And I don't see how other alignments can pass your not-stupid test. You're just claiming that everyone with a firmly set goal is stupid, because he is too stupid to not be able to do anything he wants, he is so stupid that he is limited by the thing he chose! And if he wants to achieve he must do stupid things! Therefore he is stupid!

tl;dr being limited isn't stupid, it's called being limited.

edit: on topic - I think it's the same as Hilgya situation, Durkon just isn't that observant.


I'll admit that as far as alignment goes, i favor Chaotic Neutral. Caring about the long term future of the world isn't useful, only what happens in one's own lifetime or to people connected with oneself matters. But i don't claim that everyone with a set goal is stupid, just people without flexibility. Being limited isn't in and of itself stupidity, but ALLOWING oneself to be limited arbitrarily is, imo. Especially for someone smart enough to know better.

again sorry for this long, semi-off topic post. I just find this discussion interesting. probly better for an general alignment debate thread or something.

on topic, i don't believe durkon knew :)

[Incom]

So about this Roy tangent.

Probably doesn't belong in this thread because offtopic.

New thread probably would eventually get closed for real-world morality/politics.

PMs would prevent mass discussion.

What do we do?

[The Giant]

Please steer away from discussions about whether a character (or an entire alignment) is "right" or, as we often refer to it around here, "morally justified." That's an off-limit topic around these parts due to how closely it intersects with personal views on philosophy, religion, and morality. And because it spawns monster 15-page line-by-line quote battles.

So either please get back to the topic of whether or not Durkon knew about Malack and/or what his reaction will be when he finds out, or we'll have to lock the thread. Thanks.

[sam79]

So either please get back to the topic of whether or not Durkon knew about Malack and/or what his reaction will be when he finds out, or we'll have to lock the thread. Thanks.

Any chance of enlightening us on at least the first of these issues? :smallwink:

[Vinyadan]

Durkon fought against a palm tree and stroke the trees in the wood with lightening. I don't think he could have been hurt by them, yet he considered them a menace. He has some strong preconceptions, and this applies to new people he meets, too. Malak was a likable and kind fellow, so why to doubt him? He didn't even accept the little info of him feeding teammates to a dragon as enough to take him for a villain.

I suppose that it's the same kind of fierce friendship which brought him to laugh when Roy hit the ground.

Well, this Malak part has, at least, given him some part of personality - if I remember well, many complained about his lack of it.