[PATHFINDER] Take a look at my Rage Prophet build?

[Lictor of Thrax]

Any comments about build improvements welcome. I've never played PF before and I'm jumping into a game at 10th level (just a hair's breadth from 11th).

A couple things to get out of the way, please read this is you really want to critique things:

1) Yes, I've read up on the failings/weaknesses of the Rage Prophet, so advice as simple as "just go Barb/2 Oracle/18" or whatever aren't needed. I like the fluff of the Rage Prophet, the ability to advance my Barbarian powers a bit further while also bumping my Revelations.

2) The people I'm playing with aren't optimizers at all. This'll be a mid OP game for the most part and what they are looking for is a character that can help fill in the gaps. They need a bit more healing and a bit more buffing/debuffing, along with someone who can dole out some hit-points and hell, I think they even need help with Darkvision and such (you'll see why I bring that up.) I'm looking at this guy as a skirmisher who'll move into combat, do a lot of damage, draw attention but then also be able to use Stealth as a defense and attack bonus due to the Shadow Bloodline. I chose Shadow Bloodline so that I could extend my darkvision to 120 feet and essentially tip-toe around the Clouded-eyes Curse that will never improve.

3) The main things I'm interested in here are ways to get the most out of my Barbarian abilities or ways to maximize my diminished spell-casting without sacrificing melee.

4) Before you call shenannigans on my stats, I usually do point buy. . . they do (6d4)7, drop the lowest while in the room with the DM. I rolled the best rolls of my life, to the point I actually decided to change the character quite a bit.

5) If I have something highlighted RED, that means that I'm not 100% on it and am far more open to changing it with good reason.

6) I could definitely use some help with items. I couldn't find a decent Magic Item book for PF so I just went with some basics. His Curve Blade is a thematic aspect (as well as having 15-20 crit ain't bad), which is why there's so much gold dumped into ensuring that it's always around, as well as the Weapon Mastery revelation.

The build to tenth level goes as such:

Human

Barb 2/Oracle 4/Rage Prophet 4
Dual-Cursed Oracle (Lame, Clouded Vision)

Stats after adjustment
Strength 18 (1)
Dex 16 (1)
Con 16
Int 15
Wis 13
Char 20 (2)

Traits:
Heirloom Weapon (Elven Curve Blade)
Magical Knack

Feats:
Human Bonus Feat: Focused Study (stealth & perception)
Racial Heritage (half-elf)
Eldritch Heritage (umbral/shadow)
Power Attack
Cleave
Combat Reflexes

Revelations:
Surprising Charge
War Sight
Weapon Mastery (keep in mind, there's a bonus one from Dual-Curse)

Items:
Mithral Plate of Speed
Adamintine Elven Curve Blade +1 (with furious, called and glamered enchantments)
Cloak of Resistance +3

Class/Special Abilities:
Heavy Armor Proficiency (armored hulk)
Rage Power (moment of Clarity, had to)
Cloak of Shadow (Umbral/Shadow Heritage)
Rage
Armored Swiftness

Base attack/defend/CM stats, before spells, rage or magic items:

AC: 23
Touch: 13
Flatfoot: 20

Fort: 9
Ref: 5
Will: 7

Melee: 12
Range: 11
CMB: 12
CMD: 25

I think that's all the pertinent info. Let me know if there's anything else I should I shared. I think the thing I'd be most interested in hearing would be better combinations when it came to dual-curse manipulation and thusly, bloodline options.

[avr]

This helm (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/h-l/helm-of-fearsome-mien) might be handy. You've got the charisma to mess with the intimidate skill. Maybe not the skill points though.

Extra Rage, Extra Rage Power (lots of good ones; Lesser Spirit Totem & Unexpected Strike give you extra attacks which may be useful; if you get the helm above Terrifying Howl may be handy) and Extra Revelation (Battlefield Clarity) might be more useful feats for you than the red ones IMO. Technically, you could go Barb 1/Oracle 6/Rage Prophet 3 if you take Extra Rage Power (Moment of Clarity) which would improve your spellcasting at the expense of a feat, a point of BAB and delaying your entry to rage prophet.

[grarrrg]

1) Yes, I've read up on the failings/weaknesses of the Rage Prophet
2) The people I'm playing with aren't optimizers at all. This'll be a mid OP game for the most part and what they are looking for is a character that can help fill in the gaps.

Mid OP game, good.
If it were a High OP then I'd have to yell at you. :smalltongue:


Barb 2/Oracle 4/Rage Prophet 4
Dual-Cursed Oracle (Lame, Clouded Vision)

Lame is a very solid choice for Barbarian pairings.
But instead of Clouded Vision, might I suggest Wolfscarred face? You gain a free Bite attack, with the penalty that your Verbal spells have a 20% chance of the action being wasted (you do NOT waste the spell slot, just the action).
Granted, this might become annoying in Combat at times, but is somewhat made up for by the extra attack on a full, and out of Combat it is a non-penalty.

Armored Hulk Barbarian is for, I assume, the Free Heavy Armor Prof?
Cause the "+5ft. movement in heavier armor" does NOT stack with Lame level 10.


Stats after adjustment
Strength 18 (1)
Dex 16 (1)
Con 16
Int 15
Wis 13
Char 20 (2)

No problems here, only minor suggestion would be swapping INT/WIS, but that's minor.


Feats:
Human Bonus Feat: Focused Study (stealth & perception)
Racial Heritage (half-elf)
Eldritch Heritage (umbral/shadow)
Power Attack
Cleave
Combat Reflexes
Good call on the Focused Study, as you need the Skill Focus for Eldritch Heritage anyway.
Racial Heritage 1: Elf is virtually the same as Half-Elf, as you already have the Human component.
Racial Heritage 2: Not sure what this is really doing for you.
I'm assuming your 11th level feat is Improved Eldritch Heritage.
You should consider dropping something and grabbing Extra Rage Power and taking a "once per rage" power. With the Immune Fatigue from Lame-Curse, you can spam it once every round! Powerful Blow for an extra 2 Damage, or Surprise Accuracy for an extra 2 to-hit. You might also consider the Lesser Spirit Totem (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo---rage-powers/spirit-totem-lesser-su) for an extra attack each round with bonuses based on your CHA instead of STR.


Revelations:
Surprising Charge
War Sight
Weapon Mastery (keep in mind, there's a bonus one from Dual-Curse)
While there IS a bonus one from Dual Cursed, you do not get it until Oracle 5. [insert Nitpick about Rage Prophet not GRANTING any new Revelations]


Items:
Mithral Plate of Speed
Adamintine Elven Curve Blade +1 (with furious, called and glamered enchantments)
Cloak of Resistance +3
Mithral Plate is kinda necessary with your DEX score.
Other than that, no real problems, except to maybe diversify a little more, drop some 'power' grab some more 'utility'.


I think the thing I'd be most interested in hearing would be better combinations when it came to dual-curse manipulation and thusly, bloodline options.

Regarding Dual Cursed, Deaf+Wolfscarred is probably the only true combo. Deaf treats all of your spells as Silenced, thus negating the penalty from Wolfscarred. But Lame on a Barbarian is just too darn good to pass up.

You may also think about dropping some of the "stealth" angle. It truly depends on how useful you think it will be, but it _does_ eat up a lot of feats.



Technically, you could go Barb 1/Oracle 6/Rage Prophet 3 if you take Extra Rage Power (Moment of Clarity) ...
You need Rage Powers in order to take the feat, so you still need Barb 2.

[avr]

Ta, missed that point on Extra Rage Power Grarrrg.

On the dual cursed bit, clouded vision would be a terrible pain if you're stuck with the 1st level version (from dual cursed oracle: One of these curses (oracle’s choice) never changes its abilities as the oracle gains levels; for example, an oracle with clouded vision never gains darkvision 60 feet, blindsense, or blindsight.), and obviously you really want the level 5 ability of lame. So Wolfscarred face might be more useful as Grarrrg suggests if you really want this archetype. Deaf might be handy for a stealth type due to the silenced spells.

I assume racial heritage half-elf is so you can get paragon surge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/paragon-surge). This might be considered better than mid-OP, though maybe not on a rage prophet.

[grarrrg]

On the dual cursed bit, clouded vision would be a terrible pain if you're stuck with the 1st level version

Well, he planned on offsetting that with Eldritch Heritage>Shadow.
The Dark Vision granted by Shadow bloodline ADDS to any existing Dark Vision.


I assume racial heritage half-elf is so you can get paragon surge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/paragon-surge). This might be considered better than mid-OP, though maybe not on a rage prophet.

Ah yes...good ole rules...
A Half-Elf is both Human and Elf.
A Human with an "I'm and Elf" feat is a Human and an Elf, but somehow NOT a Half-Elf.
Discuss.

[Arbane]

With your massive strength, wouldn't a regular greatsword be better than a curveblade? (Aside from crits, anyway.)

[Lictor of Thrax]

This helm (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/h-l/helm-of-fearsome-mien) might be handy. You've got the charisma to mess with the intimidate skill. Maybe not the skill points though.

Extra Rage, Extra Rage Power (lots of good ones; Lesser Spirit Totem & Unexpected Strike give you extra attacks which may be useful; if you get the helm above Terrifying Howl may be handy)

Great stuff. P.S. Has anyone ever made a really solid magic items list for PF? I've looked and never really found anything other than occasional small lists attached to class guides. I was thinking about going down the intimidate route a bit but wasn't sure if I'd have a way to squeeze feats and such to make use of the skill. That helm is perfect. Unexpected Strike is perfect. Lunge is also on my list.


Armored Hulk Barbarian is for, I assume, the Free Heavy Armor Prof?

Yeah. I'm trying to maximize my feat options, especially with how much more valuable a revelation or properly used rage power can be in comparison to a standard feat.


Good call on the Focused Study, as you need the Skill Focus for Eldritch Heritage anyway.
Racial Heritage 1: Elf is virtually the same as Half-Elf, as you already have the Human component.
Racial Heritage 2: Not sure what this is really doing for you.
I'm assuming your 11th level feat is Improved Eldritch Heritage.
You should consider dropping something and grabbing Extra Rage Power and taking a "once per rage" power. With the Immune Fatigue from Lame-Curse, you can spam it once every round! Powerful Blow for an extra 2 Damage, or Surprise Accuracy for an extra 2 to-hit. You might also consider the Lesser Spirit Totem for an extra attack each round with bonuses based on your CHA instead of STR.

Oh, I should probably have mentioned that. I indeed chose half-elf over elf (and the awesome ancient lore stuff that I believe gets over-written by Dual-Curse, anyhow) due to Paragon Surge, again as a way to add useful versatility to a party that needs a small amount of help in a lot of different areas. Being able to use any feat I qualify for (which also means any spells on my spell list) for a third level spell and a standard action does this pretty well.


While there IS a bonus one from Dual Cursed, you do not get it until Oracle 5. [insert Nitpick about Rage Prophet not GRANTING any new Revelations]


A rage prophet’s class level stacks with barbarian levels for determining the effect of his rage powers, oracle revelations, and his oracle’s curse. This does not grant additional abilities.

Am I misreading that part in this regard? I'm assuming I get the extra revelation at Oracle 4/ RP 1/ as it's a benefit from my Curse, if not, that sort of blows my build out of the water considering I'm going for as many Revelations, Powers and Feats as possible but don't want to wait until 15+ level to really see them.


You may also think about dropping some of the "stealth" angle. It truly depends on how useful you think it will be, but it _does_ eat up a lot of feats.

Yeah, after tinkering with the build more. I'm actually going to ask my DM if he thinks it'll be helpful to the group in a noticeable way because it is a resource hog and a different curse (and thus bloodline, like the awesome abyssal or orc pluses to strength) might suit me better.


With your massive strength, wouldn't a regular greatsword be better than a curveblade? (Aside from crits, anyway.)

Yeah . . . but in the end I'm a sucker for some occasional fluff and the Elven Curve Blade sort of goes with the backstory I've been writing, and the ability to crit-fish is just fun and makes me feel good inside when it works. It's like a mini-christmas multiple times a game.

Thanks for the suggestions so far, folks!

EDIT QUESTION

Why do you suggest Wis over Int? Just curious. Are there things that might crop up that Wis will benefit me more from going down this line?

By the way, I think my ultimate plan with this build will be Barb 2/Oracle 4/RP 7/Oracle 7 . . . though I may consider Barb 4. I'm definitely not going Prophet 10. None of the Prophet abilities passed 7th are very appealing and don't seem worth either the Spell Level or BAB loss.

[grarrrg]

Am I misreading that part in this regard? I'm assuming I get the extra revelation at Oracle 4/ RP 1/ as it's a benefit from my Curse, if not...

As written, I believe it is the NON-favorable way. As the Extra Revelations are including under the "Revelation" heading, and not the "Curse" heading in the Archetype.
Check with your DM though, he might let it slide.


By the way, I think my ultimate plan with this build will be Barb 2/Oracle 4/RP 7/Oracle 7 . . . though I may consider Barb 4. I'm definitely not going Prophet 10. None of the Prophet abilities passed 7th are very appealing and don't seem worth either the Spell Level or BAB loss.

There is Greater Rage at RP 10, it would help make up for the lost Bab. But is it worth another lost Caster level? Eh.

[Lictor of Thrax]

As written, I believe it is the NON-favorable way. As the Extra Revelations are including under the "Revelation" heading, and not the "Curse" heading in the Archetype.
Check with your DM though, he might let it slide.



Hmm...I see what you're saying there. I'll talk to my DM, though, If he sides with the less generous reading of it then Dual-Cursed becomes pretty much useless for what I had in mind and I'd basically only be getting one revelation in exchange for a second curse, a dramatically less useful set of Mysteries and the *option* of selecting some cool but sort of difficult to properly define Revelations. Not worth it.

[grarrrg]

Yeah, after tinkering with the build more. I'm actually going to ask my DM if he thinks it'll be helpful to the group in a noticeable way because it is a resource hog and a different curse (and thus bloodline, like the awesome abyssal or orc pluses to strength) might suit me better.

Since Eldritch Heritage does NOT give you the Arcana of the Bloodline, then I would take Abyssal over Orc if it came to that.
The Orc level 1 power is fairly pathetic, as it requires a Standard Action, and only lasts for _ONE_ round. Whereas the Abyssal one can give give you 'surprise' weapons if needed, and depending on your choice of weapon, a possible 'extra' attack each round.

2 others to consider are:
Celestial's 1st level power is a "meh" ranged option vs. Evil targets, or a minor healing ability if used on Good. The 3rd level gives you Energy Resist Acid/Cold, the 9th is limited duration Wings.

Stormborn's 1st level power lets you grant the Shock ability to a weapon, the main draw of this vs. the Orc one is that this one has a duration of 1/2 level-rounds, whereas the Orc ability lasts only _one_. 3rd level is Energy Resist Electric/Sonic, with a "reduced wind" thrown in for fun. 9th is a decent ranged attack, albeit limited times per day.


Why do you suggest Wis over Int? Just curious. Are there things that might crop up that Wis will benefit me more from going down this line?

It comes down to Will Save being +1 vs. a handful of Skill Points.
Personal Preference mainly.

[Lictor of Thrax]

Just as an aside, the Rage Prophet really is a bummer of a prestige. For every cool thing you get, you sacrifice much more, in my opinion. Bonuses to DC? Cool, except it basically just works to counter the lost spell levels. Moment of Clarity? I assume the overwhelming majority of people who take this class are going to be Rage Cycling, making the ability exceptionally situational. Add RP levels to a very limited selection of Oracle and Barbarian abilities? Somewhat cool, except now you're spending feats to get Rage Powers or Revelations . . . and you lose both BAB and CL.

If it weren't for the fact that there's only one other player in the group who knows anything about optimizing, besides the DM, I'd never take this class, as I'm spending most of my efforts just trying to counter-act the poor design of this class. I think I might talk to my DM about either doing something about the CL/BAB issues or ask him if I could still get level based Rage Powers and Revelations. I think allowing for perhaps a slightly modified acquisition of Revelations and Rage Powers would actually make this class worth playing. Either that, or using the Eldritch Knight's BAB and CL progressions.

[grarrrg]

Just as an aside, the Rage Prophet really is a bummer of a prestige. For every cool thing you get, you sacrifice much more, in my opinion. Bonuses to DC? Cool, except it basically just works to counter the lost spell levels. Moment of Clarity? I assume the overwhelming majority of people who take this class are going to be Rage Cycling, making the ability exceptionally situational. Add RP levels to a very limited selection of Oracle and Barbarian abilities? Somewhat cool, except now you're spending feats to get Rage Powers or Revelations . . . and you lose both BAB and CL.

If it weren't for the fact that there's only one other player in the group who knows anything about optimizing, besides the DM, I'd never take this class, as I'm spending most of my efforts just trying to counter-act the poor design of this class. I think I might talk to my DM about either doing something about the CL/BAB issues or ask him if I could still get level based Rage Powers and Revelations. I think allowing for perhaps a slightly modified acquisition of Revelations and Rage Powers would actually make this class worth playing. Either that, or using the Eldritch Knight's BAB and CL progressions.

*ding ding ding!*
Like we both pointed out before, if you were _really_ trying to Optimize, you should NOT go anywhere near the Rage Prophet.

I've participated in a few posts discussing the Prophet, and...yeah...

My "quick fix" is to limit the "stacks for Rage Power/Revelation/Curse" to 1/2 Prophet level, but then give them a bonus Rage Power OR Revelation every 2nd level.
Course, you could always try to convince your GM to just LET you have the extra Rage/Revelations...but Mid-OP, so this seems a fair enough compromise.