Aware of Will saves or not?

[SirKillalot]

I've been searchin to find the awnser to my question but can't seem to put my finger on it.

Do targets sense they're making a will save, in other words are they aware of making one?

Suppose I cast a detect thoughts on an enemy to read his thoughts. He will have to make a Will save in order to keep me from poking around in his head.

Would he know I tried if he failed his save?
Would he know I tried if he succeeded his save?

[Norin]

I'm quite interested in this too, as i am playing a beguiler nowdays with concealed spellcasting and such.

I am able to cast spells that targets Will saves without anyone knowing i cast the spell.

Would be nice to know if a target knows something is going on or not. Good topic!

[Ranos]

A creature that successfully saves against a spell that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack.
If they successfully resist, they know a spell was cast on them.

[Ernir]

Further, the spell can be identified with a DC 25 + spell level Spellcraft (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/spellcraft.htm) check.

(Seriously useful rule. No idea why it's not brought up more often.)

[Psyren]

Would he know I tried if he failed his save?

That depends on the spell itself. (In the case of Detect Thoughts, no.)



Would he know I tried if he succeeded his save?

Sort of:

"A creature that successfully saves against a spell that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack."

So he would know something happened, but not necessarily that you were the cause or what you were trying to do.


Further, the spell can be identified with a DC 25 + spell level Spellcraft (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/spellcraft.htm) check.

(Seriously useful rule. No idea why it's not brought up more often.)

"Cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack" seems to imply that you can't identify a spell simply from saving against it. You would have to see it being cast, or see it active on someone else.

[Diarmuid]

Knowing you tried something also generally would depend on whether your casting was something that could have been seen/heard/etc.

Obviously a Silent/Still spell with no material components would be pretty difficult to discern (ring of spell battle, or other similar effects would let you know).

[SirKillalot]

Ok, so now a Doppelganger comes along and uses Detect thoughts continually as Supernatural ability...

No spellcraft to be made there I reckon...

[GeriSch]

IMHO it depends if the target can see you waving your hands, speaking strange words of power and flinging around material components in which case even a barbarian with INT 7 could deduce you cast a spell on him - or if your casting is so subtly hidden (via some spellcasting feats like silent spell etc.) that the target isn't aware that you did something magical. In the latter case the target might suspect that "hostile force" is coming from you, but couldn't pinpoint what's going on.

gr,
Geri

[Edit: Damn Ninjas]

[Psyren]

Ok, so now a Doppelganger comes along and uses Detect thoughts continually as Supernatural ability...

No spellcraft to be made there I reckon...

Supernatural abilities are undetectable unless they do something obvious (e.g. a dragon breathing fire, or a Binder displaying Signs.)

[Shining Wrath]

I've been searchin to find the awnser to my question but can't seem to put my finger on it.

Do targets sense they're making a will save, in other words are they aware of making one?

Suppose I cast a detect thoughts on an enemy to read his thoughts. He will have to make a Will save in order to keep me from poking around in his head.

Would he know I tried if he failed his save?
Would he know I tried if he succeeded his save?

I am not aware of a rule, but have always played that you are aware of the saves you make, and if you make it by enough you even know what you saved against.

[Psyren]

I am not aware of a rule

It's been quoted a couple of times above your post if you were curious.

[Shining Wrath]

It's been quoted a couple of times above your post if you were curious.

Yes, thanks, should have read the whole thread before posting. A loser, is me :smallfrown:

[Psyren]

Yes, thanks, should have read the whole thread before posting. A loser, is me :smallfrown:

Oh no, I didn't mean that pejoratively :smallsmile: just making sure you didn't miss it.

[Answerer]

A pretty thorough discussion of the issue. (http://rpg.stackexchange.com/a/21311/4563)

[Ashtagon]

If you make a Will save, you get a mental tingle. You can also attempt a (trained only) Spellcraft check to identify the spell. GMs should probably roll this check. Note that if the Will save was from something other than a spell, you get the same mental tingle, and Spellcraft can't identify that at all.

If you happened to be watching someone waving their arms or chanting meaningfully at the time, you might put two and two together and come up with "spell". Call it a DC*0 Wisdom check.

If you see someone casting a spell, you can attempt a Spellcraft check. You don't need to be the target to attempt this check, although the spell must have verbal or somatic components, and it is a trained only skill.

In the case of detect thoughts...

The first two rounds are spent in general area scanning, and don't allow for Will saves at all. The third round, you can choose to target a specific individual, and that individual gets a save each round.

If he saves, he is aware of a "ping", and can attempt a (trained only) Spellcraft check to identify the spell. The spell does not end when he saves; that specific individual cannot be targeted again, although others in the area could be.


Anyone with skill training who witnessed the spell being cast could have attempted a Spellcraft check to identify the spell at the time it was cast.

[Ernir]

"Cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack" seems to imply that you can't identify a spell simply from saving against it. You would have to see it being cast, or see it active on someone else.
:smallconfused:
The Spellcraft skill is quite explicit that you can. It's the rule I quoted.

Seeing the spell being cast and seeing it active on someone else are separate uses of the skill, "Identify a spell being cast." and "Identify a spell that’s already in place and in effect." respectively.

To further explain my position, I'd say that the "cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack." clause is not supposed to refer to an impossibility, just that this information is not automatically given.

[Psyren]

Ah, missed that line. So that's a specific exception then, and as you rightfully said, one that's easily overlooked.

[Shining Wrath]

Oh no, I didn't mean that pejoratively :smallsmile: just making sure you didn't miss it.

It's too late for me. My self-esteem is slipping down, down, down...

[Story]

According to the SRD, the Spellcraft check only applies to targeted spells. But it doesn't require you to make your save.

[SirKillalot]

All in all a great amount of reactions and participation, thanks all. I think I have sufficient information to allow the doppelganger some room to experiment on the party without immediately being suspected of being one ;)

Afaic case closed :)