Encourage skill use

[pbdr]

So, I'm a somewhat new DM with a group of new to D&D players. I'm trying to encourage them to develop their characters and use their skills more, etc.

Occasionally, I find myself needing to throw in an NPC or other "bone" to get the PCs knowledge of some thing. They also currently are playing fighter heavy group, so the skill just aren't there...

So to help out I want to give them an extra 1 or 2 skill points a level, but stipulate that they need to have at least one knowledge/profession skill with points in it. I also want to house rule that any "skill focus" feat also adds that skill to your class list.

I'm sure I've seen these as house rules (and had then in game as a player), but I want to see if people agree that they would help to encourage them to use additional skills....

Thoughts?

[Deepbluediver]

If they don't have loads of skill-points available, then requiring them to use something they don't have won't really get you anywhere.

My advice is, tweak the campaign to fit the group: if there are no skill-monkeys, cut back on the skill checks. Rather than force them to make knowledge checks or whatever, reveal the needed pieces of plot in a journal they find or a letter carried by some one they killed.
etc etc etc

What you can do largely depends on what the group is like, and what you've been giving them so far. If they are of the attitude that "the DM would never TPK us" trying to encourage them to sneak around an outsized enemy force to teach them the benefits of Stealth isn't likely to accomplish anything but frustration.
In other words, use skill checks they can make to show them other ways to achieve an objective, rather than punishing them for not having certain skills, even if your planned plot requires some tweaking to do so.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

My advice is just to try to make the available skill checks as interesting as possible. D&D players tend to have a strong instinct towards exploration and the like; having additional routes, options, items or information available only through skill checks could draw them in.

Oh, and try to make the actual use interesting as well, if you can - not just straight die-rolling.

[drax75]

Those seem like ok ideas to me.

One way i do it in my game is to give them 2 options.

option 1: You can walk blindly into some horrible dungeon with no knowledge check or skills. (i make the monsters a lot harder, and use tons of traps, riddles, and such)

or

option 2: You can use your skills to either bypass the dungeon completely or make it easier (if they do this then i lower the difficulty a tad, let them make skill checks to get by riddles, this means they should also have skills for traps)

I find this encourages people to add skill points, to knowledge skills so they can bypass stuff more easily. People are lazy simple play to that with your encounters.

Like my rogue who decided to not take disable device. I sent them to a "fun house" that had traps every 5 feet.

Or my Psion/Wizard with low knowledge Arcana, who i gave a ridiculously hard riddle too, but told them they could mage a Know Arcana check to bypass. Needless to say he has ranks in Knowledge Arcana and other skills.

My warblade is even taking skills cause she knows she is next.

Good Luck!

[pbdr]

Let me rephrase a bit. I am more trying to encourage them to develop characters and want to use skills (as opposed to swords) a bit more. They are melee focused, but their is a ranger/archer and a warlock.

The players have more video RPG experience and I want them to see the differences with D&D. And to stop attacking everything on sight (this is a slight exaggeration, but not much). It gets kind of repetitive for me as DM....

I figured if I gave them access to more knowledge based skills or additional skills in general, they might want to use them.

[ericgrau]

Skill use depends mainly on the DM, since their usefulness depends on the types of challenges the DM provides. First learn all the individual skill rules very well to understand which situations they apply to. Second learn the taking 10, taking 20 and no natural 1 rules which greatly increase the reliability of skills. This is especially important when failure has a dire consequence and even a few failures would make the skill not worth the risk to attempt. Skills are so narrow in application it is ok if players glide through related challenges; whatever happens never nerf them.

I would not give extra skill points because then players may glide through so many challenges you may become tempted to nerf skills. Even if the nerf isn't in writing. Instead, reward players for specialization, or for varying their skills rather than maxing a couple. Which is riskier, but allows more options, unless you nerfed skills so hard that a low modifier is useless.

Third many skills are related to the environment, so learn all the rules for the weather & enviroment (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/wildernessWeatherEnvironment.htm). Since these are all up to the DM, this is a big part of why skills are so DM dependent. I've even heard of a group where every player took skill focus (swim) simply because the DM loved aquatic challenges. It really is that DM dependent.

If you want to encourage knowledges then I would suggest calling for rolls every time there is a benefit, because the player might not always know that he knows, so to speak. If you don't want to give too many clues before they even roll, you might make pre-rolls in secret. These rolls should happen at every monster. Developing your world's cities, history, important figures and cosmology while tying them into the plot will also lead to calls for rolls. As always, skills depend on your world.

And if players can overcome all the challenges easily with stabbing and without skills, why should they bother with them? It shouldn't be impossible without them, but negotiation, stealth, detectiveness, learning weakness (both in individual monsters and in plot organizations), etc., etc. should confer a huge advantage. If it doesn't then you are only force feeding them fluff and their fluff should be up to them not up to you. If the world doesn't have those things, and it only has a pile of stabbable monsters, then again it's on you. If that's too much work, then you shouldn't bother with skills either. And often I do think skills are better off removed rather than being implemented halfway. Then you do everything verbally without modifiers nor rolls. Skill checks might even be substituted in place of developing a vibrant world, to gloss over all plot situations with a roll, which is the worst thing you could possibly do in all your DMhood.

[Deepbluediver]

Ah, ok, you've got something of a player issue there.

Personally, I think the best approach might be the direct one: rather than attempting to steer them gently in the right direction in-game, just talk to the players about it. If you have to, run a short campaign using all high-skill characters.

The biggest impediment to progress is that fact that they won't keep attacking stuff as long as it works. But throwing down a wall of unkillable creatures out of nowhere just feels like you are being mean.

Long term, I've always taken the approach that the DM needs to approve all player-concepts prior to beggining play. Use this opportunity to lay out some guildines or suggestions for character creation.

[Tork]

So, I'm a somewhat new DM with a group of new to D&D players. I'm trying to encourage them to develop their characters and use their skills more, etc.


You develop a character by role playing, not making a skill check, so it's odd for you to say that.

But it's easy enough to get them to use skills more, just make the skills more useful. By default, a fighter type does not need much skill to do much....they can attack and kill things just fine with no skills. But they should be using spot and listen a lot, right? And search? And jump and climb? If not, they are easy to fix. Have more sneaky, quite foes...ones they will spot and listen for. Have more things that need to be searched for. Add more places to climb and jump over.

[Telonius]

There are a few mechanical ways of encouraging skill use. Getting rid of cross-class skills, offering a free "+2/+2" feat at character creation, or having the +2/+2 feats (or Skill Focus) scale with level are relatively common houserules.

You might want to take a page from some of the Adventure Paths and run a town festival. Athletics competitions, performance competitions, craft competitions; with the skill-check winner getting some minor prize (100gp, free beer for a month at the Inn, something along those lines).

Can't remember the book at the moment (Maybe PHB2 or CChamp?) but somewhere there are rules for gaining reputation benefits from an organization. Many of these give you reputation bonuses if you have a certain number of skill ranks. A Mage's College might have a requirement of 10 ranks in Spellcraft and Know(Arcana); Thieves' Guild would have it in Sleight of Hand and Move Silently. That not only gives them a mechanical incentive to put ranks into things, but also gets them thinking about how they're relating to the rest of the game world.

[killem2]

It really depends on what is going on but here is some suggestions for each :) Also award some XP for thinking!

Appraise - Have a riddle puzzle dependent on getting the price right. Sorta like the price games on the price is right.
Balance - Easy, rope bridge that is highly unstable, players MUST make balance checks to pass, and get minus to the DC if they declare half movement, use hands to hold on to stuff, ect.
Bluff - Gambling :)
Climb - Don't make dungeons level, add some holes and walls!
Concentration - Moving platforms! Think mario bros!
Craft - Possible check for broken items and weapons to determine howw they were destroyed for future clues!
Decipher Script - Magic writing that might unlock something for future adventures!
Diplomacy - Counter party runs into you and wants to try and hustle you for your freedom!
Disable Device - Traps. easy
Disguise - Gotta get past those guards!
Escape Artist - TIME TO SQUEEZE!
Forgery - You need that document, but the gaurd is very paranoid and rarely leaves it alone and would call down hades if it was stolen.


Gather Information - Talk to those local bar peeps and prisoners and grunts.
Handle Animal - Put some anmials around, maybe some babies to rear!
Heal - Let them uncover some dead bodies, and this check can tell them what disease killed them.
Hide - give the party some dark areas once and a while.
Intimidate - Sometimes you just have to be a ****.
Jump - sorry, the bridge is broke!
Knowledge - just about anything, I load this into my modules
Listen - standard should always be used
Move Silently - give them some chances to move quite, like past gaurds or something.
Open Lock - duh
Perform - glee it up
Profession - gambler :P


Ride - you have to get away, and the only way to out run the massively nasty fast monster is using some near by mounts.
Search - most players are always searching something
Sense Motive - bluff your players
Sleight Of Hand - pocket that important info!
Speak Language - make enemies talk in something other than common or find clues in other lingo
Spellcraft - make lots of auras come from places or drop a lot of potions
Spot - standard
Survival - track those baddies from the forest to the caves!
Swim - sometimes, things don't work out, you just fell off the rope bridge because you failed your balance check.
Tumble - ehh, you could make this as part of a option to dodge a trap instead of reflex
Use Magic Device - leave some interesting devices about or broken ones that you need to find clues about.
Use Rope - maybe you didn't fall off the bridge :P

[caden_varn]

If I understand correctly, the main aim is to encourage them away from just fighting everything, rather than specifically to use skills more?

If so, give them a scenario where there is no obvious way to solve by violence. This could be some kind of contest as suggested above, or an investigation of some kind. A couple of common examples:

The group come across a village that is being terrorised by a vicious beast, which turns out to be some kind of shapeshifter, so the group have to work out who the beast is before they can confront it.
To remove the easy combat option, the beast needs to avoid confrontation with the party if possible, so the group need to come up with some way to trap or corner it (or annoy it beyond reason) to get to the fight.
The beast could be a were of some type (maybe wererat would be good, as more likely to flee a combat), and cursed so the human did not know they changed, or a druid annoyed with the village for encroaching on the sacred woods, or a number of other things.

Another scenario is to have the group investigate some strange occurence in a town or city - this could be a murder or a theft, or something stranger like a mysterious apparition. They could be hired to investigate it, or suspected of causing it and need to clear their names.

It is important to think about the skills and spells the characters have available to help investigate, but also to reward roleplaying and creative solutions so they can get big bonuses to skills which they woulkd be using untrained (or avoid the requirement for a skill check completely, if you prefer). It is probably a good idea to be ready spoon-feed the group a couple of clues to get them going, but give them some time to investigate first - they may surprise you.

[GoddessSune]

Let me rephrase a bit. I am more trying to encourage them to develop characters and want to use skills (as opposed to swords) a bit more. They are melee focused, but their is a ranger/archer and a warlock.

The players have more video RPG experience and I want them to see the differences with D&D. And to stop attacking everything on sight (this is a slight exaggeration, but not much). It gets kind of repetitive for me as DM....

I figured if I gave them access to more knowledge based skills or additional skills in general, they might want to use them.

Bribe them. This is the best DM trick ever. A lot of players just don't get all that excited over ''role playing stuff''. They just don't care about the imaginary princess of the imaginary game of the whatever whatever. But one thing most players like is loot. And often the non-role playing types really, really love loot. And, amazingly enough, most players will do anything to get loot.....even role play.

So it's easy enough:Introduce some loot they want. Say a Sword of Sharpness. But then make it lost. "Well the bandit lord Touge had it about three years ago, but has not been seen for at least that long.'' Then the players have to hunt down Touge. Is he even still alive? Is he in a tomb somewhere? Might his ''favorite sword'' be burred with him?

For the most part, the players will need to role play out the search. When they talk to the bandit lords ex-wife, they just can't kill her....that does not help them find the sword.

[Xenogears]

Bribe them. This is the best DM trick ever. A lot of players just don't get all that excited over ''role playing stuff''. They just don't care about the imaginary princess of the imaginary game of the whatever whatever. But one thing most players like is loot. And often the non-role playing types really, really love loot. And, amazingly enough, most players will do anything to get loot.....even role play.

So it's easy enough:Introduce some loot they want. Say a Sword of Sharpness. But then make it lost. "Well the bandit lord Touge had it about three years ago, but has not been seen for at least that long.'' Then the players have to hunt down Touge. Is he even still alive? Is he in a tomb somewhere? Might his ''favorite sword'' be burred with him?

For the most part, the players will need to role play out the search. When they talk to the bandit lords ex-wife, they just can't kill her....that does not help them find the sword.

Speak with Dead never lies....

[Synovia]

Like my rogue who decided to not take disable device. I sent them to a "fun house" that had traps every 5 feet.

Or my Psion/Wizard with low knowledge Arcana, who i gave a ridiculously hard riddle too, but told them they could mage a Know Arcana check to bypass. Needless to say he has ranks in Knowledge Arcana and other skills.


"Rogue, your build is BADWRONGFUN! I punish you with skill checks you don't have. Psion, BADWRONGFUN!"

[subject42]

I'd second the bribing thing, but rather than bribing with loot, give them a few free skill tricks from complete scoundrel if they have the requisite ranks.

It could help turn skills from "that arbitrary roll the DM throws at me" to "this will let me swing around like Indiana Jones?".

[Synovia]

Speak with Dead never lies....

Sure it does.


The corpse’s knowledge is limited to what the creature knew during life, including the languages it spoke (if any). Answers are usually brief, cryptic, or repetitive.

The corpse is going to tell you the information that it has. That information doesn't have to be correct.

[Xenogears]

Sure it does.



The corpse is going to tell you the information that it has. That information doesn't have to be correct.

But if they didn't have the information to begin with then you wouldn't have gotten it by keeping them alive and questioning them either.

[Synovia]

But if they didn't have the information to begin with then you wouldn't have gotten it by keeping them alive and questioning them either.

Right, but asking a captive "Where is the sword of sharpness" is going to get you an answer like "Please don't hurt me. I don't know. Jerry the Butcher had it last that I know. He lives in Saltbridge".

Speak with Dead is going to get you : "don't know"

[Deepbluediver]

Going back to the original post, how open to homebrew are you in your games?
I've had a couple of ideas over the years for tweaking the skill-point system (some of them where even good ideas :smalltongue:).

One pair that I particularly liked went as follows:
(1) Rather than getting 4x your class skill points at first level (which encourages people to dip rogue and the skill DC's to be balanced accordingly) every player gets the same number of bonus points at level 1, sort of like how everyone gets the same number of points to spend on ability scores if you are using a point-buy system (I need a thesaurus for "point" :smallmad:).

What I mean is, a barbarian, a rogue, and a bard would all get a fixed number of skill points, plus whatever they get for their class. These represent the skills you learned during your childhood and adolescence before you started adventuring. You can adjust the base rate of skill points depending on if you want a higher or lower power campaign.
1st level Barbarian- 15+4+Int
1st level Rogue- 15+8+Int
1st level Bard- 15+6+Int
Ist level Wizard- 15+2+Int
etc.

(2) Skill points gained each level are affected by the characters Intelligence bonus instead of the modifier. What this means is, no matter how dumb your character is, they don't get less than the base number listed with their class. Smart characters still benefit, but everyone else doesn't suffer as much.

For example, if your barbarian has an Int of 6 (-2 Int mod) he still get's 4 skill points each level.
If your rogue has an Int of 15 (+2 mod) he get's 10 skill points each level.



Conclusion
Both of these House-rules are aimed at boosting traditionally low-skill characters without unbalancing the upper end, and giving more skill points all around.

[Xenogears]

Right, but asking a captive "Where is the sword of sharpness" is going to get you an answer like "Please don't hurt me. I don't know. Jerry the Butcher had it last that I know. He lives in Saltbridge".

Speak with Dead is going to get you : "don't know"

So ask a better question less open to interpretation like "Where was the last place you knew the sword to be at?" "Who is the last person you know of who had the sword?" "What is the most likely place to find the sword?"

Still a lot of leeway in those answers but probably just as accurate as asking them the normal way.

[Tork]

Speak with Dead never lies....

Assuming they have the corpse to speak with, right? Or even if they have the bandit lords corpse that he even knows anything useful: "I was stabbed in the back by my lieutenant Vork and died. I don't know what happened to my sword after that."

But the OP said they were a bunch of fighter types anyway.....

[Xenogears]

Assuming they have the corpse to speak with, right? Or even if they have the bandit lords corpse that he even knows anything useful: "I was stabbed in the back by my lieutenant Vork and died. I don't know what happened to my sword after that."

But the OP said they were a bunch of fighter types anyway.....

But I was responding to someone who posited that the only way to solve the scenario they presented was by roleplaying. I disagreed and said that Speak with Dead works better than roleplaying in many situations.

[Deathslayer7]

Let me rephrase a bit. I am more trying to encourage them to develop characters and want to use skills (as opposed to swords) a bit more. They are melee focused, but their is a ranger/archer and a warlock.

The players have more video RPG experience and I want them to see the differences with D&D. And to stop attacking everything on sight (this is a slight exaggeration, but not much). It gets kind of repetitive for me as DM....

I figured if I gave them access to more knowledge based skills or additional skills in general, they might want to use them.

Have it be where it appears that a group/party much like your PCs look evil but are actually the good guys.

Example:

Have it be that a very important person needs to travel in secrecy from one place to another and has assumed a different identity and hired bodyguards to get there. When the PCs come upon them, they see them looting a dead caravan (which was actually a thieves gang trying to kill/steal from them). It looks bad from this point of view, so PCs jump to conclusions.

If they resort to attacking, have them fight the guards. If the guards start losing, have one of them pull out a badge or something and say "In the name of the King I demand you drop your weapons!" If they still continue to attack and ignore it, have a prepared sending message sent to the King warning them about the attack and the PCs.

And if they do kill the important person, then they just made their own lives very difficult. This might teach them that fighting doesn't solve problems all the time.

Another Example: a cult has taken villagers from a nearby village and dressed them as them and forced them to be mute (cut out their tongues). As such, have real bad guys and common villagers dressed alike.

When the party goes in to save the villagers, they can't just kill everyone they see otherwise they are going to kill the villagers. When they realize this and the village finds out, they won't be happy with these supposed murderers.

The last example might be have them be way overmatched where they have to run. If they try to fight, you know it will go downhill for them and have them be knocked out (not killed even though they might deserve it). When they wake up, they are locked in a cell with no gear. Have them escape but escape without a magic item or two (Depending on what they have). Teach them that bad actions/thoughts have consequences.

It might not be the nicest way though. The thing is that you need some sort of negative outcome to affect not just them but the party in general when you don't want the PCs just charging in.

[Slipperychicken]

The PCs are tasked with the safe return of a hostage (or multiple hostages) from some brigands. The brigands are keeping the hostage in an unknown location, and will kill him/her if they think someone is trying to attack. The PCs are a lot more likely to use skills, because they need to both find the location and rescue the hostage without alerting the brigands.

I second encouraging some of them to use skillful characters. When playing a Fighter-type "I hit it again" character, one tends to say "screw it, I'm no good at skills, so just I'll stick to combat".

[jedipilot24]

Skill tricks from Complete Scoundrel. If your characters are short on skill points, consider allowing them to 'buy' the Open Minded feat several times.