Evil Gish [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Chilingsworth

2013-02-19, 01:37 PM

Hello Playground!

Ok, I'm looking to build an evil gish character in case my current ultimate magus dies with no means to get him back.

Notible building blocks I have:

Evil paladin varient (also, paladins in my dm's world use charisma as their casting stat, for what that's worth.)

ToB (though Warblades have had their HD reduced to d10s)

Ebon Phoenix Mage

Abjurant champion

Notible building blocks I do not have:

Spellsword

Sacred Exorcist (PrC doesn't exist, and I'll be evil anyway. Lawful Evil, if it matters)

NO ACF's or class varients of note

Twilight armor might be hard to come by.

None of the following spells: any [Calling] effects, shape change, polymorph, polymorph any object, alter self. Possibly others, if any spells are mentioned, I'll have to check the my dm's spell list (which I have a copy of).

I'm not sure what feats count as notible building blocks, so I didn't include them. Prettymuch all feats from Core and the Complete series are allowed, again if any are mentioned, I'll have to check the list.

So, any build ideas?

Also, I'd appreciate tips on how to use any builds you guys give me, as I've never actually played a gish before.

Urpriest

2013-02-19, 02:20 PM

Since you don't have access to Spellsword or Sacred Exorcist, it's a little harder to build a classic Sorcadin. You'd be doing something like Paladin 2/Sorc 6/Abjurant Champion 5/something else with 3/4 BAB (maybe Drow-flavored Ruathar?) for the rest, which even in the best-case scenario won't get you 16 BAB by 20.

Will all of the ToB content, perhaps an Ebon Pheonix Mage without Paladin would make more sense. Unfortunately if you want to stick to a Sorceror base this is also tricky, since Ebon Pheonix Mage would lose you several caster levels. I might go with Crusader 1/Sorceror 5/Ebon Pheonix Mage 5/Abjurant Champion 5...but after that, you don't have a lot of good options. Ruathar and Dragonslayer would together give you +16 BAB in the end, but with a heavy feat tax. So overall, it depends on how far the campaign will go. If you don't think you'll pass 16th level, this build is fairly viable.

Chilingsworth

2013-02-19, 03:33 PM

I don't believe dragonslayer is available, and Ruathar definately isn't (even if it was on the approved PrC list, we're unlikely to have contact with any drow.)

The campaign is Way of the Wicked, and is expected to go to 20th level.

I'm not nessicarily wedded to sorcerer. I'm also willing to lose 9th level spells, since two of the big ones are banned in my dm's world (Gate and Shapechange.) So, if I went JEM (Jade Ebon Mage) I'd probably want to max out my maneuvers over casting anyway.

EDIT: Since sorcadin is as unavailable as I feared, I've broadened the thread to include all gishes.

Chilingsworth

2013-02-19, 04:03 PM

Actually come to think of it, I'm not even particularly wedded to being an arcane caster. The party already has a cleric, though.

Also, in addition to using charisma as their casting stat, paladins in this world have a caster level equal to their class level, once they get spells.

Looking at my dm's versions of the classes, I also see that favored souls now only require charisma for their casting. Maybe a paladin 4/Favored soul 16 could be interesting?

Also, my deity's favored weapon is the greatsword, so the free weapon feats I'd get from favored soul would go towards a solid weapon.

ArcturusV

2013-02-19, 04:12 PM

Urpriest

2013-02-19, 04:14 PM

About the only reason I'd go Paladin 4/Favored Soul 16 over Paladin 2/Favored Soul 18 is to get DMM Persist, and that's only if you can't get turning any other way. Being one spell level behind for most of your career is survivable, two much less so.

What level are you starting at?

If you're not wedded to Sorceror, an Ebon Pheonix Mage gish with Wizard or Wu Jen or the like is much more viable. You'd do something like Warblade or Crusader 1/Wizard 5/Jade Pheonix Mage 9/Abjurant Champion 5

Chilingsworth

2013-02-19, 04:25 PM

No consideration for Evil Bard? Especially if it's the campaign I remember you on, where you'd have to undergo propaganda and revolution fostering against Tyrians, it seems like their skill sets would be well suited towards the effort.

Asmodeus Paladin//Bard... huh... now that sounds evil.

Least if you can get your DM to waive the non-Lawful requirement off Bards. Honestly it never made sense to me that somehow being an enchanter, illusionist, and performer instantly meant you had to be non-lawful. None of their powers are particularly "Chaotic"... maybe Illusions. Though Illusion spells don't exactly have the "Chaotic" tag.

It looks like my dm has indeed removed the alignment restriction from bards.

He also added this little gem to them:

Jack of All Trades: at 5th level all skills may be used even if untrained. At 11th level the bard can purchase all skills at the cost of 1 point for 1 rank, regardless if it’s a class skill or not. This does not increase the maximum ranks possible. At 19th level you are the master of all skills and may take 10 in any skill regardless of distraction and danger.

Also, the reason I didn't think of bard is that I'm playing one in our group's other campaign. Still, even a monoclass bard is a solid option. And yeah, it's for the same campaign.

As for starting level: We're currently level 6, so if my current character died next session, that's what my new one would come in at.

Also, Wu Jen isn't available. I think that's the only class out of the completes that isn't. Hmm, actually, I don't think spell thief is either.

Urpriest

2013-02-19, 07:23 PM

Bardadin could be a solid choice. Something like Bard 8/Paladin of Slaughter 2/Sublime Chord 1/Abjurant Champion 5/anything with 3/4 BAB or better that loses one or fewer caster levels 4.

DMVerdandi

2013-02-19, 08:36 PM

Hmm...

For a basic Gish, Wizard(Spontaneous diviniation)5/Eldritch Knight 3/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 7

Pick Otherworldly and Practiced spellcaster (Wizard) at 1.

Other feats needed: Arcane strike, Smiting spell.

There are more complicated builds but that one is simple as it gets.

Other options? Use a cleric. There is one already? Switch up the build. Use Spontaneous domain casting(ACF) and have a theme of spells that you can always cast. Make him completely different.

If one cleric is the traditional templar in plate mail, Switch it up and play an unarmed cleric. Maybe dip monk, pick up a monk's belt, Superior unarmed strike, and feats neccessary for dmm:persist.

Your domain becomes the defining factor in how you fight though.

Chilingsworth

2013-02-20, 01:46 AM

@^ No ACF's are available. So, no Spontaneous divination, no Spontaneous domains. :smallfrown:

Also, the Otherworldly feat isn't available.

DMM: persist exists, but is only available to worshipers of a specific god incompatible with the current campaign (not sufficently evil.)

How's this for a bardadin build (bards can be lawful in this world)?

Bard 8/Paladin (of Asmodeus) 2/Sublime Chord 2/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 3

Or, I could replace the eldritch knight with Lyrical Thaumaturge.

A_S

2013-02-20, 02:57 AM

If you're okay with a little sneak-age, I'd replace EK with Unseen Seer (something like Bard 8/Pal 2/SC 1/AC 5/US 4). You can easily get all the skill requirements by that level, and I'd much rather have 2d6 sneak attack, an off-list divination spell (Hunter's Eye), and an extra caster level than 17 BAB instead of 16.

(Note that if you can't get your hand on any other form of sneak attack, the US class feature will technically only work when you have Hunter's Eye up...ask your DM if you can just have sneak attack, though.)

*edit* Lyric Thaumaturge would also be a fine choice.

Chilingsworth

2013-02-20, 03:22 AM

I'm not adverse to sneakage, but unseen seer isn't on the approved PrC list.

So how's this for a build?

Bard 8/Paladin (of Asmodeus) 2/Sublime Chord 2/ Abjurant Champion 5/Lyrical Thaumaturge 3

Cultural Bonus Feats: Able Learner, Second Wind, Heroic Destiny

Regular Feats:

1st: Melodic Casting
HB: Lingering Song
3rd: Song of the Heart
6th: Snowflake Wardance
9th: Gain Evil Organisation
12th: Combat Casting
15th: Extra Spell Known (5th)
18th: ???

Spells Known:
Bard:
0th:
Detect Magic
ghost sound
message
Prestidigitation
Light
Mending

1st:
Undetectable Alignment
Inspirational Boost
Grease
Hideous Laughter
Shield (B)

2nd:
Suggestion
Mirror Image
Glitterdust
Invisibility
Kelore's Grave Mist (B)

3rd:
Haste
Charm Monster
Glibness

Sublime Chord:

4th:
Dominate Person
Dimension Door
Greater Mirror Image
Celerity

5th:
Cloudkill
Overland Flight
Wall of Force (F)
Greater Dispel Magic
Draconic Vision

6th:
Irresitable Dance
Freezing Fog
Mass Charm Monster
Greater Anticipate Teleportation

7th:
Greater Teleport
Energy Immunity
Simaculrum

8th:
Mind Blank
Greater Shadow Evocation
Maze

9th:
Effulgent Epuration
Shades

EDIT: Just realised, Lyrical Thamaturge only advances bard casting. :smallannoyed:

Although, my dm has changed Acolyte of the Skin so I'd only lose 1 caster level (he's made it an 8/10 casting class.) That might be thematically interesting, though I would gain very little.

EDIT2: Cloaked Dancer wouldn't cost me any caster levels, but the thought of a big scary occasionally monologuing (I intend to use perform oratory) evil paladin "getting down" kinda feels wrong. (The idea of one "dirty dancing" feels even worse.)

Dirgesinger might work, although my dm's write-up doesn't say what bolstering song does. (we use pathfinder's channel energy rather than turn/rebuke undead.)

Also: Note to Self: RoS has an alternate use for the slight of hand skill that allows for concealment of spellcasting. Check to see if I can use this.

Chilingsworth

2013-02-20, 02:23 PM

Ok, just found this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D88aLVvzq8A). That might work as inspiration for an evil bardadin/cloak dancer.

Biffoniacus_Furiou

2013-02-20, 06:26 PM

Sorcerer 6/ Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327) 9/ Abjurant Champion 5.

Get Trollshape (PH2) but never cast it, just use it to enable the feat Minor Shapeshift (CM). Preferably put it on a custom Runestaff (MIC p224) at 1/day. Don't get me started on Runestaffs (http://alt.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=267805#4).

Feats should include Practiced Spellcaster, Power Attack, Arcane Strike, Extend/Persistent Spell, preferably a metamagic reducer for Persist such as Practical Metamagic (RotD), Easy Metamagic (Dragon mag), and even Metamagic School Focus (CM, if you can get Ability Enhancer in DC). Even better if you can get some alternate-cost metamagic shenanigans, such as Incantatrix (PGtF), Spelldancer (MoF), Naenhoon (Illumian, RoD), etc.

Chilingsworth

2013-02-20, 06:41 PM

Swiftblade isn't in any published book, Dragon Mag material, and Illumians...

All are HA! HA! ... No, as far as my dm is concerned.

Swiftblade does look like an interesting class, though.

8wGremlin

2013-02-20, 06:55 PM

Bit of an odd ball but what about these ideas

Duskblade
Totemist 2/ Incarnate 4/ x
Druid
Glavelock =
Warlock9/Hell fire warlock 1/Binder 1/ Hell fire warlock 2?
glave warlock 10/ur-priest 2/eldritch disciple 8

The glavelock can be fun
You need top take the glave shaped invocation, but it can rack up quite a bit of damage

Take darkness, and then use BLEND INTO SHADOWS (feat, DotU) to drop a darkness spell and then hide in plain sight

Binder is in there to debate the con damage from hellfire warlock

The ur-priest is cheesy but does net you 9th level cleric casting!

Biffoniacus_Furiou

2013-02-20, 07:25 PM

Swiftblade isn't in any published book, Dragon Mag material, and Illumians...

All are HA! HA! ... No, as far as my dm is concerned.

Swiftblade does look like an interesting class, though.

Then in that case, why not just go with a DMM Cleric? Or better yet, a Druid with a Cloistered Cleric dip for DMM, or even something like Druid 8/ Suel Arcanamach 2/ Arcane Heirophant 10. All of the standard/ideal arcane gish builds are already ruined by your book/class restrictions. Most start out Full BAB 2/ Full Casting 4/ Spellsword 1, for 5/7 casting and 5/7 BAB. Every build wants to get 16/20 BAB and either 17/20 casting (wizard) or 18/20 casting (sorcerer), but without that Spellsword dip to qualify for Abjurant Champion it just falls apart.

Chilingsworth

2013-02-20, 07:29 PM

Bit of an odd ball but what about these ideas

Duskblade
Totemist 2/ Incarnate 4/ x
Druid
Glavelock =
Warlock9/Hell fire warlock 1/Binder 1/ Hell fire warlock 2?

The glavelock can be fun
You need top take the glave shaped invocation, but it can rack up quite a bit of damage

Take darkness, and then use BLEND INTO SHADOWS (feat, DotU) to drop a darkness spell and then hide in plain sight

Binder is in there to debate the con damage from hellfire warlock

Let's see:

Duskblade: Possible

Totemist/Incarnate: Not possible, my dm elected not to adopt MoI.

Druid: Possible

Glavelock: Possible, but no binder (Dm elected not to adopt ToM, either.) Also no blend into shadows feat.

The thing is, my current character is the party's only arcanist. So, if I hve to replace him, I want to do so with another arcane caster. However, the party is also kinda lacking in the tank department, so I want to be able to help with that.

Current Party:

Swordsage - can hit pretty hard but is durable enough to tank properly
Cleric - can tank, but has other things to do, too.
Rogue (has a dip in warblade): squishy, though he definately can DPS.
Beguiler/Wizard: My current character. squishy and still growing into his role as an arcanist.
Warblade: Specialized in a homebrewed ranged discipline, not very good in melee. Also, player often misses sessions due to recent birth of his second child and other responsibilities.

We also used to have a druid, but he got a new girlfriend, had a falling out with the Warblade's player, then moved across the country to live with her. So... yeah, he's not coming back.

We might also get a new player soonish. I've been told he's fairly competent, but I have no idea what he'll play.

Biffoniacus_Furiou

2013-02-20, 07:35 PM

A Druid or Cleric (with the right domains) can do everything a Wizard can do.

Bard could be useful, as long as you've got access to the necessary Inspire Courage optimization tricks. Otherwise a fear build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=252815#4) would be at a nice sweet spot at your starting level, and could still be a primary caster later on with Sublime Chord.

Chilingsworth

2013-02-20, 07:38 PM

Then in that case, why not just go with a DMM Cleric? Or better yet, a Druid with a Cloistered Cleric dip for DMM, or even something like Druid 8/ Suel Arcanamach 2/ Arcane Heirophant 10. All of the standard/ideal arcane gish builds are already ruined by your book/class restrictions. Most start out Full BAB 2/ Full Casting 4/ Spellsword 1, for 5/7 casting and 5/7 BAB. Every build wants to get 16/20 BAB and either 17/20 casting (wizard) or 18/20 casting (sorcerer), but without that Spellsword dip to qualify for Abjurant Champion it just falls apart.

Let's see... DMM: Divine Metamagic exists... but is only available to clerics of a specific diety, which isn't a practical choice of patron for any PC in a Way of the Wicked campaign.

Cloistered cleric: No ACF's.

Druid: possible, Suel Arcanamach: not available, Arcane Heirophant: possible.

Hmm, it's looking like the Bardadin build is my best bet.
Of course, to make it ideal, I'll have to see if he'll let me apply Lyrical Thematurge casting to Sublime Chord. (He might actually allow that. He's quite inflexible about adding things to his approved list, but is somewhat open to modifying things he's already included.)

If not, then I'd have to top it off with either Cloaked Dancer, Dirgesinger, or Acolyte of the Skin.

As for that fear build, pretty much all the key parts of it are no-go's.
(No ACF's/variant classes, No desert orcs, no DotUD, limited dragon mag (at least, I think some of his approved feats come from there, not very many, though.) No necropolitians. No Flaws. (We get three bonus cultural feats, but from a specific list, of which I doubt many are directly useful. With Able Learner, Second Wind, and Heroic Destiny, I think I've chosen the best of the lot.)

Dread Witch is available. Nightmare Spinner isn't.

As for IC optimizing: I have song of the heart and inspirational boost available, and that's about it.

8wGremlin

2013-02-20, 09:26 PM

Glave warlock 10/ur-priest 2/eldritch disciple 8

The ur-priest is cheesy but does net you 9th level cleric casting!

and probabally not allowed with your GM

Biffoniacus_Furiou

2013-02-20, 09:39 PM

I'd just go Druid 20 in this situation, Strongheart Water Halfling or Whisper Gnome. Get Companion Spellbond, Natural Bond, and Natural Spell with a Warbeast Fleshraker dinosaur for your animal companion. You can apply your own effects in the most beneficial order so 'level -3' first and then +3 for Natural Bond to still count your full level toward its benefits. Get a few Lesser Rods of Extend and/or a Monk's Belt with a Wilding Clasp. Make your whole party each pitch in 2,000 gp to buy you a 1st level Pearl of Power and to go in thirds on Lesser Rods of Extend, use one 1st level spell slot/day to put Extended Snowsight on everyone with the pearls and rods, and everyone who can should cast (Extended) Obscuring Snow every day. Grab Greenbound Summoning and/or Ashbound with flaws if available, Greenbound summons should Wall of Thorns on top of as many opponents as possible as soon as they appear (there's no minimum caster level for spell-like abilities (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellLikeAbilities)).

Chilingsworth

2013-02-21, 03:16 AM

Glave warlock 10/ur-priest 2/eldritch disciple 8

The ur-priest is cheesy but does net you 9th level cleric casting!

and probabally not allowed with your GM

Actually, that would work fine. :smalleek:

But, I'm not convinced that I would enjoy playing the character from level six until it hit its power sweetspot.

I'd just go Druid 20 in this situation, Strongheart Water Halfling or Whisper Gnome. Get Companion Spellbond, Natural Bond, and Natural Spell with a Warbeast Fleshraker dinosaur for your animal companion. You can apply your own effects in the most beneficial order so 'level -3' first and then +3 for Natural Bond to still count your full level toward its benefits. Get a few Lesser Rods of Extend and/or a Monk's Belt with a Wilding Clasp. Make your whole party each pitch in 2,000 gp to buy you a 1st level Pearl of Power and to go in thirds on Lesser Rods of Extend, use one 1st level spell slot/day to put Extended Snowsight on everyone with the pearls and rods, and everyone who can should cast (Extended) Obscuring Snow every day. Grab Greenbound Summoning and/or Ashbound with flaws if available, Greenbound summons should Wall of Thorns on top of as many opponents as possible as soon as they appear (there's no minimum caster level for spell-like abilities (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellLikeAbilities)).

The stuff I bolded is absolutely unavailable. The part in red is unlikely to ever, ever happen. I think Monk's belts have also been nerfed to not work right for non-monks. I could be wrong about that, though.

8wGremlin

2013-02-21, 04:39 AM

with the warlock 10/ur-priest 2/eldritch disciple 8

if you focus on Str and Wis

@ 6th level you would have

# warlock 1 Eldritch Glave least invocation: melee touch attack for EB 1d6
# warlock 2 Detect Magic, least invocation
# warlock 3 DR/1 cold iron, EB 2d6
# warlock 4 Decieve Item, least invocation
# warlock 5 EB 3d6,
# warlock 6 New Invocation (least or lesser)

Invocations
Least: Eldritch Glave, Baleful Utterance, See the Unseen
Lesser: (The Dead Walk, Fell Flight or Flee the Scene) your choice

This would let you do 3d6 damage on a melee touch attack!
Shatter at will, and darkvision 60' and see invisible 24 hours a day!

Crusader-lock

If you wanted to enter in to ur-prest early, you could pick up a fighter, or TOB class drop the last 3 levels of Warlock and go fighter/crusader/warblade and get Ur-priest at level 6

# Crusader 1 Furious counterstrike, steely resolve 5 Feat: Iron Will
# Warlock 1 Eldritch Glave least invocation: melee touch attack for EB 1d6
# Warlock 2 Detect Magic, least invocation, Feat: Spell Focus (evil)
# Warlock 3 DR/1 cold iron, EB 2d6
# Crusader 2 Indomitable soul
# Ur-Priest 1 Feat: battle caster (use invocations in medium armour)

the Crusader stances are useful, but the strikes interfear with the Eldertich glave.

Biffoniacus_Furiou

2013-02-21, 08:56 AM

The stuff I bolded is absolutely unavailable. The part in red is unlikely to ever, ever happen. I think Monk's belts have also been nerfed to not work right for non-monks. I could be wrong about that, though.

Natural Bond with an Ape for your animal companion is almost as good, just be sure to give it Combat Reflexes as soon as it hits 6 HD. Go with a regular ol' PHB Gnome if you have to. Maybe pick up Augment Summoning if you can use flaws, otherwise I'd grab Extend Spell.

If you can get spells from Frostburn, then it still works. If the party doesn't want to play along then still put Extended Snowsight on yourself and your companion and cast Extended Obscuring Snow, they'll quickly realize that the 2,000 gp per person is for their own benefits. Without Companion Spellbond you'll want a 1st level Pearl of Power for casting that on your companion. See if the 'just as if it had not been cast' part of a Pearl of Power will also recover the metamagic rod's charge.

Stock up on Lesser Rods of Extend. Use them for Produce Flame, Creeping Cold, Sleet Storm, Longstrider (get another 1st level pearl and put it on your companion), Greater Magic Fang (+1 all on your companion), Barkskin, Bull's Strength, etc. Get a wooden tower shield, don't even worry about the nonproficiency penalties as you shouldn't be making any attack rolls unless you wild shape.