Fast Healing Vs. Regeneration [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Deaxsa

2013-02-19, 02:59 PM

Fast healing heals x hit points per turn.

Regeneration is some mix of letting you fix bodily damage (like growing limbs back, reattaching severed limbs, etc), changing the way that creature takes damage, and (weak)fast healing.

it always says in the creature description (for instance i think some creatures have the damage change/fast healing portion of Regeneration, while others simply have the Reattachment/Grow back feature). I'm almost sure every creature with regen can do both, (or that regen simply does both, they are one and the same)but i'm not 100%, so i'm being careful here. additionally, i think that each regen has specific times for how long(to reattach/grow back) it takes per creature, although i may be wrong about this too.

as far as changing damage goes, it's like this: when you take damage, it's always nonlethal. unless it's some sort of specific damage type, in which case it's lethal. regeneration can ONLY heal the nonlethal damage portion. a way i find is easier to explain is that lethal damage(from special types, for trolls, this would be fire/acid) lowers your max hit points, while nonlethal damage is treated normally under fast healing rules: you heal X amount per turn until you reach your 'max' hit points.

edit: just to be clear, fast healing heals lethal damage, not just nonlethal damage. which is the advantage it has over regeneration.

lunar2

2013-02-19, 03:01 PM

Id say Regen since it can recover lost limbs, fast healing will not recover limbs.

both the hydra and the ogre mage would like to have a word with you.

Tyger

2013-02-19, 03:02 PM

Well as there are only very limited ways in D&D to lose limbs (other than your head to a vorpal weapon of course) and regeneration is so slow....

I'd have to give the win to Fast Healing, as it is a mechanic that alomst all games will use (hit point loss and recovery) and is so much faster than Regeneration that the two aren't reasonably comparable.

lunar2

2013-02-19, 03:03 PM

most things have fast healing 5, if they have fast healing. most things have regen 5, if they have regen. how is regeneration slower?

Garagos

2013-02-19, 03:04 PM

Regeneration

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#regeneration

Fast Healing

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#fastHealing

In most cases I'd agree that Regeneration is better. Fast healing is better when being dealt damage that actually causes lethal damage to a creature with regeneration. For example, fire or acid damage dealt to a troll.

yougi

2013-02-19, 03:04 PM

A creature with the fast healing special quality regains hit points at an exceptionally fast rate, usually 1 or more hit points per round, as given in the creature’s entry. Except where noted here, fast healing is just like natural healing. At the beginning of each of the creature’s turns, it heals a certain number of hit points (defined in its description). A creature that has taken both nonlethal and lethal damage heals the nonlethal damage first. Fast healing does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation, and it does not allow a creature to regrow lost body parts. Unless otherwise stated, it does not allow lost body parts to be reattached. Fast healing does not increase the number of hit points regained when a creature polymorphs.

A creature with this extraordinary ability is difficult to kill. Damage dealt to the creature is treated as nonlethal damage. The creature automatically heals nonlethal damage at a fixed rate per round, as given in the entry. Certain attack forms, typically fire and acid, deal lethal damage to the creature, which doesn’t go away. The creature’s descriptive text describes the details. A regenerating creature that has been rendered unconscious through nonlethal damage can be killed with a coup de grace. The attack cannot be of a type that automatically converts to nonlethal damage. An attack that can cause instant death only threatens the creature with death if it is delivered by weapons that deal it lethal damage.

Attack forms that don’t deal hit point damage ignore regeneration. Regeneration also does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation. Regenerating creatures can regrow lost portions of their bodies and can reattach severed limbs or body parts; details are in the creature’s descriptive text. Severed parts that are not reattached wither and die normally.

A creature must have a Constitution score to have the regeneration ability.

Difference 1: Regeneration can bring back lost limbs

Difference 2: Regeneration continues to work after you're under -10 (because it's only non-lethal damage)

Slipperychicken

2013-02-19, 03:11 PM

Regeneration: Cannot restore HP loss from causes which overcome Regeneration (for Trolls, these are Fire and Acid damage, and weapons coated in Trollbane). Converts all other damage forms into nonlethal damage, making creatures with Regeneration difficult to kill. Combines very well with immunity to nonlethal damage and immunity to things which bypass the regeneration.

Fast Healing: Heals all forms of damage, but does not convert damage into nonlethal.

For many characters (who have access to magic healing and allies to bail them out), I consider Regeneration the stronger. It allows recovery from many environmental things like Falling damage, and requires a great deal of effort and preparation to defeat a creature who possesses it. Additionally, it can combine with immunities to render a character effectively immune to damage.

Telonius

2013-02-19, 03:12 PM

Hydra are a little weird. They don't have Regeneration listed in their Special Abilities. Any kind of lethal damage is lethal damage to them, and putting a severed limb or head next to a stump, it won't grow back. The whole "two heads sprout again" is only connected to their Fast Healing at all because they get Fast Healing (10+number of heads). They sprout head again because they're a Hydra, not because they get Fast Healing.

Starbuck_II

2013-02-19, 03:27 PM

most things have fast healing 5, if they have fast healing. most things have regen 5, if they have regen. how is regeneration slower?

Example?
Because Trolls (CR 5) have Regen 5, but Hydras (5 headed) have Fast heal (10+heads) 15.

Ogre Mage (CR 8) have Regen 5 still, and Chain Devil (CR 6) has Regen 2, but Imp (CR 2) has Fast heal 2.

So it depends onthe creature, but most Regen is less than 5 but a few Fast heal are less as well.

Phelix-Mu

2013-02-19, 03:38 PM

Regen is more of a problem for people that don't know about it, as a creature that looks dead actually isn't. Can be a very significant issue in mass combat, especially if no one fighting the creatures with regen knows about it or specifically how to bypass it.

Killing things with fast healing may take a little longer, but usually not more than a round or two more (since most combats are fairly short and damage output is generally high). Once a critter with fast healing is dead, it's dead. (Excepting vampire template silliness, ofc.)

The real problem is that PCs or enemies might not realize the exact special quality at work.

So, I'd value regen above fast healing. More of a free radical in the "I need to kill you" calculation. Also, you can gain fast healing through a wide number of sources, but regen is much harder to come by (trying to think of a non-template/non-racial source...).

Sir_Thaddeus

2013-02-19, 03:56 PM

Fast Healing covers everything, while Regeneration only covers nonlethal damage; but Regeneration also converts most damage into nonlethal. So some attacks can get through Regeneration, but nothing really negates Fast Healing. However, immunity to nonlethal damage combined with regeneration can make one immune to almost all damage; combine with a few elemental immunities to become nearly impossible to kill via damage. So in general, I'd call Regeneration better; if you don't have access to the immunities stated above, and enemies have access to fire or acid, Fast Healing might be better.

TaiLiu

2013-02-19, 04:16 PM

...trying to think of a non-template/non-racial source...

Trollshape, maybe.

Nettlekid

2013-02-19, 04:27 PM

Most people have already covered the difference, but I'll toss in my two cents.

I LOVE regeneration. It's hard to get, but so worth it. Although with the recovery it works like Fast Healing (with the differences everyone's already mentioned), I find it's better to compare it to Damage Reduction (or actually Energy Resistance) in terms of defensive power. Energy Resistance chooses one or two sources of damage and protects against them, while letting everything else though. Regeneration does exactly the opposite, blocking (turning to nonlethal) everything except one or two sources of damage. Typeless damage will always get though ER, never Regen. It's very useful.

The only good way to get Regeneration permanently, barring either Manipulate Form or the dubious Troll-blooded, is the Shriver from Fiendish Codex II. What you have to do is get strapped into a shredding machine which deals 2d20 damage every turn, and you must make two Will or Fort saves (whichever is lower) every turn, DC 15+(Cumulative damage taken/5). You can only get out with five Escape Artist checks (DC unlisted, but I would assume masterwork manacles.) The longer you last in the machine without dying or failing your saves, the more powers you get. It includes a lot of immunities to stuff like sickening/nausea, fear, some mind-affecting, etc, but the best thing in my opinion is the Regeneration that goes up to Regen 5/Chaotic and Good. That's right, only Chaotic Good aligned weapons overcome your Regeneration. And that means actually CG-aligned weapons, not weapons that count as such for overcoming DR, because this isn't DR. In order to keep the benefits of the Shriver you have to do either evil or lawful things, which is tough, except that murder is evil and adventurers murder things all the time.

The Glyphstone

2013-02-19, 04:36 PM

Regen is superior because it vastly reduces the things that can actually kill you, rather than knock you unconscious.

Fast Healing restores X HP each turn, but Regen restores X non-lethal HP each turn and turns all damage that doesn't bypass it into nonlethal. Fast Healing can just be outpaced by dealing more damage than they heal and eventually kill them (the easiest way to kill Hydras), but a monster with Regeneration is immortal unless you have its Achilles heel handy.

The only good way to get Regeneration permanently, barring either Manipulate Form or the dubious Troll-blooded, is the Shriver from Fiendish Codex II. What you have to do is get strapped into a shredding machine which deals 2d20 damage every turn, and you must make two Will or Fort saves (whichever is lower) every turn, DC 15+(Cumulative damage taken/5). You can only get out with five Escape Artist checks (DC unlisted, but I would assume masterwork manacles.) The longer you last in the machine without dying or failing your saves, the more powers you get. It includes a lot of immunities to stuff like sickening/nausea, fear, some mind-affecting, etc, but the best thing in my opinion is the Regeneration that goes up to Regen 5/Chaotic and Good. That's right, only Chaotic Good aligned weapons overcome your Regeneration. And that means actually CG-aligned weapons, not weapons that count as such for overcoming DR, because this isn't DR. In order to keep the benefits of the Shriver you have to do either evil or lawful things, which is tough, except that murder is evil and adventurers murder things all the time.

Reading the text, I'm almost certain it's supposed to be Regen 5/ Chaotic or Good, not Chaotic And Good.

Story

2013-02-19, 05:01 PM

Trollshape, maybe.

Troll Blooded is technically not racial or a template either.

Immabozo

2013-02-19, 05:02 PM

Like others have said, Regen is better by the obvious abuse.

I made a Druid 15/Master of Many Forms 2/Nature's Warrior 5 (level 22) with the shapeshifting necklace that gave +4 to the effective HD for the purposes of shifting, shifting into a Gerivar with regen 8 and fast healing 2. It took cold or acid to get around the regen, with immunity to fire, sonic and mind effecting effects, a Druid buff gave him immunity to cold, items gave him acid resist 60 and with a little more potimization, I could probably have gotten him immunity to non lethal damage.

At that point, the ONLY way to bring him down without antimagic shinanigans, was to hit him with more than 60 acid damage per hit, and if the acid damage was a non-spell, DR on top of that!

Tanuki Tales

2013-02-19, 05:13 PM

And I quoted a post that poofed....

Does a Bleakborn's fast healing allow it to re-integrate if disintegrated or does it die like a Curst does?

Edit:

Since this thread isn't specifically 3.5, I'd like to note that the gap between FH and Regen was significantly lessened in Pathfinder.

Regen acts exactly like Fast Healing, except it can be turned off and makes you Quasi-Immortal when it's running.

Slipperychicken

2013-02-19, 05:16 PM

immunity to fire

At that point, the ONLY way to bring him down without antimagic shinanigans, was to hit him with more than 60 acid damage per hit, and if the acid damage was a non-spell, DR on top of that!
False.

Searing Spell, Orb of Fire. Ignore immunity to Fire (half damage), bypass regeneration, ignore DR, targets Touch AC. Add metamagic to taste.

Wait, was the regeneration bypassed by Fire?

Tanuki Tales

2013-02-19, 05:18 PM

False.

Searing Spell, Orb of Fire. Ignore immunity to Fire (half damage), bypass regeneration, ignore DR, targets Touch AC. Add metamagic to taste.

Gerivar regeneration isn't bypassed by Fire though. :smallconfused:

Andreaz

2013-02-19, 05:25 PM

[...]hit him with more than 60 acid damage per hit, and if the acid damage was a non-spell, DR on top of that!DR does not apply to energy damage.

Slipperychicken

2013-02-19, 05:25 PM

Gerivar regeneration isn't bypassed by Fire though. :smallconfused:

Ehh, still KOs him, then keep him in nonlethal coma until his buffs wear off. Or just liberally apply Trollbane'd (Dungeonscape) attacks to the body.

Tanuki Tales

2013-02-19, 05:32 PM

Ehh, still KOs him, then keep him in nonlethal coma until his buffs wear off. Or just liberally apply Trollbane'd (Dungeonscape) attacks to the body.

Well, keep in mind that the character has 9th level spells and potentially epic magic or feats. So it may not be as simple as that.

Phelix-Mu

2013-02-19, 05:33 PM

The only good way to get Regeneration permanently, barring either Manipulate Form or the dubious Troll-blooded, is the Shriver from Fiendish Codex II. What you have to do is get strapped into a shredding machine which deals 2d20 damage every turn, and you must make two Will or Fort saves (whichever is lower) every turn, DC 15+(Cumulative damage taken/5). You can only get out with five Escape Artist checks (DC unlisted, but I would assume masterwork manacles.) The longer you last in the machine without dying or failing your saves, the more powers you get. It includes a lot of immunities to stuff like sickening/nausea, fear, some mind-affecting, etc, but the best thing in my opinion is the Regeneration that goes up to Regen 5/Chaotic and Good. That's right, only Chaotic Good aligned weapons overcome your Regeneration. And that means actually CG-aligned weapons, not weapons that count as such for overcoming DR, because this isn't DR. In order to keep the benefits of the Shriver you have to do either evil or lawful things, which is tough, except that murder is evil and adventurers murder things all the time.

Wow, this is something worth looking into. More for DM purposes than op, thankfully. From the sound of it, it's like the Rated M for Mature version of deck of many things.

In other words, FUN.

Immabozo

2013-02-19, 05:42 PM

Ehh, still KOs him, then keep him in nonlethal coma until his buffs wear off. Or just liberally apply Trollbane'd (Dungeonscape) attacks to the body.

The form naturally has immunity to fire, it takes cold or acid to get around regen, a druid buff gives immunity to cold, but sensativity to fire... but he is immune to fire!

But I meant in physical combat, not spells cast on him. But his response to spell casters was a 70 movement speed, with a run action that got him x6 instead of x4 movement speed, ranged bombardment (from the forms extraordinary attack) of 2 grenades per round at 5D6 fire, 5D6 piercing per grenade, with 14 grenades that take a small handful of minutes to regrow and then 24 vorporal attacks per round with a to hit in the 50s.

Best defense is a good offense... with a great defense to back it up.

EDIT: and as mentioned, high level spells, (level 8 I think) that are a lot of fun. All this was with very little item optimization, so with more item optimization, he might be nigh unstoppable!

Phelix-Mu

2013-02-19, 05:45 PM

The form naturally has immunity to fire, it takes cold or acid to get around regen, a druid buff gives immunity to cold, but sensativity to fire... but he is immune to fire!

But I meant in physical combat, not spells cast on him. But his response to spell casters was a 70 movement speed, with a run action that got him x6 instead of x4 movement speed, ranged bombardment (from the forms extraordinary attack) of 2 grenades per round at 5D6 fire, 5D6 piercing per grenade, with 14 grenades that take a small handful of minutes to regrow and then 24 vorporal attacks per round with a to hit in the 50s.

Best defense is a good offense... with a great defense to back it up.

What happens when you need to do something inside a small space?

Immabozo

2013-02-19, 05:57 PM

What happens when you need to do something inside a small space?

Well there is always shifting into other forms, or reduce person. Wilding Armor is an awesome thing!

Wil o wisp and perma invisibility and nigh immunity to magic and a fast fly speed is my usual form for that (or running away)!

EDIT: I apologize for the utter and complete thread highjacking.

The Glyphstone

2013-02-19, 06:01 PM

Well there is always shifting into other forms, or reduce person. Wilding Armor is an awesome thing!

Wil o wisp and perma invisibility and nigh immunity to magic and a fast fly speed is my usual form for that (or running away)!

EDIT: I apologize for the utter and complete thread highjacking.

You've got a serious problem with this...Regeneration is an Extraordinary ability, which your build didn't get while Wildshaping. You need 7 levels of Master of Many Forms, you only have 2. So you don't get Regen, you can't get Wil-o-Wisp Immunity/invisibility, no fast healing...

Magikeeper

2013-02-19, 06:02 PM

Gerivar regeneration isn't bypassed by Fire though. :smallconfused:

This is true. There does happen to be a "piercing cold" metamagic feat that gets around cold immunity, which I think would bypass the druid's regen. Although having the cold subtype still blocks it and the example PC could likely get that with ease (unlike the superior searing spell's ability to damage fire subtype creatures).

Also, ability damage/level drain/etc do not require antimagic shenanigans although buffs exist that would protect the pc from those as well.

------------------------------------

Back on topic, regeneration is far superior to fast healing in 3.5 IMO. Even if your enemies regularly have access to the right damage types to bypass the regen it limits what they can do. Even then you can do crazy stunts like jumping off cliffs with impunity. Fast healing saves time and gold/spells for out of combat healing. Regen often does that as well and offers you more options (Being able to dismember oneself has come in handy for me in the past) in addition to making you much harder to kill.

ericgrau

2013-02-19, 06:02 PM

Regeneration is much better for a PC because it usually keeps you from dying even past -10. There are often energy types that bypass it but most monsters don't even have that energy type, let alone know to use it on you. Avoiding deaths for himself or his party is usually the #1 concern for a PC in a fight. Losing a fight to a TPK is very rare.

Fast healing is much better for a monster because there isn't a way to bypass it. And a monster that is unconscious is as good as a monster that is dead, for the purpose of winning the fight.

Phelix-Mu

2013-02-19, 06:03 PM

Well there is always shifting into other forms, or reduce person. Wilding Armor is an awesome thing!

Wil o wisp and perma invisibility and nigh immunity to magic and a fast fly speed is my usual form for that (or running away)!

EDIT: I apologize for the utter and complete thread highjacking.

Can will o' wisp even talk, though? I was picturing a situation that required interaction but might also be dangerous.... Alas, it's probably impossible to back a shapeshifter into a corner without much higher op on my part.

EDIT: Oh, yeah, fast healing. Regeneration. Regen is cooler, but most PCs have to settle for fast healing.

Immabozo

2013-02-19, 06:18 PM

You've got a serious problem with this...Regeneration is an Extraordinary ability, which your build didn't get while Wildshaping. You need 7 levels of Master of Many Forms, you only have 2. So you don't get Regen, you can't get Wil-o-Wisp Immunity/invisibility, no fast healing...

However Nature's Warrior stacks with MMoF for possible forms and the Extraordinary abilities! One reason I love these two classes together.

Also, fast healing comes from class levels, not the shapes... although I think with the stated build it's only Fast Healing 1

This is true. There does happen to be a "piercing cold" metamagic feat that gets around cold immunity, which I think would bypass the druid's regen. Although having the cold subtype still blocks it and the example PC could likely get that with ease (unlike the superior searing spell's ability to damage fire subtype creatures).

Also, ability damage/level drain/etc do not require antimagic shenanigans although buffs exist that would protect the pc from those as well.

------------------------------------

Back on topic, regeneration is far superior to fast healing in 3.5 IMO. Even if your enemies regularly have access to the right damage types to bypass the regen it limits what they can do. Even then you can do crazy stunts like jumping off cliffs with impunity. Fast healing saves time and gold/spells for out of combat healing. Regen often does that as well and offers you more options (Being able to dismember oneself has come in handy for me in the past) in addition to making you much harder to kill.

Yes, there are ways to get around it, but how good something is, is measured in how limited said methods of getting around it are. This defense and offense leve little time and few answers.

Again, back on topic, like I said, how good something is, is measured in how limited said methods of getting around it are. Although Fast Healing is only overcome with high damage output, that is still a very common trait. Regeneration is considerably more restricted in the answers. Therefor, I say it is better.

No matter how great the build, there is always some answer to it, there is no universally unanswerable build, character, ability or feat, not even divine ranks, but again, how restricted the answers are.

Even if it is only answerable by this bunny (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=251102)

The Glyphstone

2013-02-19, 06:21 PM

However Nature's Warrior stacks with MMoF for possible forms and the Extraordinary abilities! One reason I love these two classes together.

Also, fast healing comes from class levels, not the shapes... although I think with the stated build it's only Fast Healing 1

To Determine abilities of the Wild Shape Class. It doesn't give you all the class features of any class related to wildshaping. The Wilding class feature even specifically calls this out - it improves shape size, type, frequency, and wild empathy checks. You don't get free levels in Druid/MoMF, or their class features, it just makes the equation of 'Effective Druid Level For Wildshaping = Druid + NW + MoMF".

So you wouldn't even be able to turn into a Gerivar or a Wil-o-Wisp either. Only animals, humanoids, and giants, plus Elemental Wild Shape.

Immabozo

2013-02-19, 06:21 PM

Can will o' wisp even talk, though? I was picturing a situation that required interaction but might also be dangerous.... Alas, it's probably impossible to back a shapeshifter into a corner without much higher op on my part.

Yes, Will o' wisp can talk, MMoF give an ability to talk in forms who normally cant, as well as will o' wisps in the MM say they can vibrate, giving off an empty, ghostly voice.

Immabozo

2013-02-19, 06:24 PM

To Determine abilities of the Wild Shape Class. It doesn't give you all the class features of any class related to wildshaping. The Wilding class feature even specifically calls this out - it improves shape size, type, frequency, and wild empathy checks. You don't get free levels in Druid/MoMF, or their class features, it just makes the equation of 'Effective Druid Level For Wildshaping = Druid + NW + MoMF".

This is not mine and my DM's understanding, but then again, why would anyone take MMoF 7 when MMoF2/NW 5 give the same benefits and more?

Although I wouldn't put it past WotC to overlook this...

Story

2013-02-19, 06:28 PM

In addition to Piercing Cold, vile damage could arguably bypass the regeneration. And it's very difficult to become immune to all the Save or Dies in the game.

The Glyphstone

2013-02-19, 06:29 PM

This is not mine and my DM's understanding, but then again, why would anyone take MMoF 7 when MMoF2/NW 5 give the same benefits and more?

Although I wouldn't put it past WotC to overlook this...

If your DM rules otherwise, more to your benefit. It's not RAW, though, for precisely the reasons you give. Otherwise the most awesome Druid Build ever would be Druid 5/Master of Many Forms 5/Planar Shepherd 5/Nature's Warrior 5, letting you wildshape as a 35th level druid into anything that exists in the history of existing.