Binder optimization

[chrisgray86]

Ok Guys I am a level 6 binder and I was looking for a little help with making him focus a little. Right now I have all binding feats but I want to change that So that I can go to Knight of the Sacred Sign class so I know I have to change one to weapon focus. So my first question what to focus on I like Eurynomes Warhammer but is it worth it to focus that specifically on something I can only use when I am bound to that vestige? I dont really know how I want to use him in our party we have no archane right now but dm said dont worry too much about that cause she can work around it So I think I would like to focus on melee so please help me out what would be a good way to go? Here are my Stats

Str 17
Dex 17
Con 18
Int 17
Wis 16
Cha 20

Feats as they sit right now are Expel Vestige, Skilled Packt making, Ignore Special Req, Improved Binding and Favored Vestige


Any advice would be great!!!!

[Snowbluff]

STATZ!!!OE@JI#OEWR

If you are going melee, why is your Cha so high? Are you expecting to bind a lot of vestiges with DCs?

[jedipilot24]

Here's the Binder Handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871830/Consolidated_Binder_Handbook)

Enjoy.

[chrisgray86]

our dm made us roll for it so I wound up being 19 and I have a cloak of charisma so thats why its so high.

[SilverLeaf167]

Well, as a Knight of the Sacred Seal you have to choose a patron vestige anyway and will be expected to always stay bound to vestige. Have you decided which vestige you want? Eurynome isn't bad, but there are definitely better choices. If, however, you choose her as your patron, you might as well take Weapon Focus for the maul.

[Psyren]

Eurynome is pretty bleh; when you can replicate the most powerful feature of a vestige with some gold you know you've chosen the wrong patron. Also, she has no cooldown abilities so you miss out on KotSS' greatest ability, i.e. the ability to use your "encounter power" twice in a row.

Are you totally wedded to the melee binder idea? With your stats you'd be a phenomenal caster-Binder - raining damage every round with Focalor-Geryon, crafting all kinds of goodies like staves with Astaroth+Karsus, or just plain binding Zceryll to win D&D.

[Person_Man]

Various suggestions you may wish to consider:

Once you hit level 8-10ish, you'll probably want to shift away from melee oriented vestiges (Malphas, Paimon, Dahlver-Nar, Andras, Kas) and towards a "caster" style Binder (Acererak, Dantalion, Desharis, Haures, Zagon, Zceryll).

Entangling Exhalation Feat: Adds a very useful entangle effect to your breath weapon. Amon, Focalor, Astaroth, and Orthos all offer breath weapons, with Astaroth being the most potent one that you can currently bind. Races of the Dragon.

Dragonborn: You can become a Dragonborn at any time via a cheap ritual. Doing so allows you to swap out some of your racial abilities for new ones. New options include a wings or a breath weapon. So a Dragonborn Binder with Astaroth should be able to use an Entangling breath weapon much more often. Races of the Dragon.

Cloak of the Dragon: Wings and a breath weapon once per day for 10 minutes. Only 6,000 gp, Complete Champion pg 138.


Veil of Allure: Increases the save DC of your enchantment spells or spell-like abilities, as well as the Charisma-based save DCs of your extraordinary or supernatural abilities. Magic Item Compendium.

Dahlver-Nar + Night Caller: You can blow the Night Caller whistle over any grave to turn a corpse into a zombie that serves you loyally until destroyed. (7,000 gp, Libris Mortis pg 79). Generic zombie's are very weak, but it gives you an infinitely renewable minion. (If you prefer, you can use a Figurine of Wondrous Power, an Effigy creature, etc). Dahlver-Nar's "Shield Self" ability has no duration as long as you stay within range, and shifts 50% of the damage you take to your target. So prior to combat, you use it on your minion, and you're basically walking into every combat taking only 50% damage. If there's a particular "boss" enemy, then you can shift Shield Self onto him (although it allows a Save).

Vile feats + Naberius: There are a number of very useful Vile feats in the Book of Vile Darkness, Elder Evils, and Champions of Ruin. The problem is that the best ones deal Con or Cha damage whenever you use them. But Naberius heals ability point damage quickly. Check out Dark Speech, Dark Whispers, Chosen of Evil, Insane Defiance, Slave to Evil, and Chosen of Evil.

Sudden Stunning weapon enhancement: Enemy must Save or be Stunned for multiple rounds. Useable Cha bonus times per day. A steal at only +2,000 gp. Magic Item Compendium.

Combat Panache feat: Offers several maneuvers. The main benefit is that you can make an Intimidate check (Move Action) to impose your Cha bonus as a penalty to hit against one enemy until the end of the encounter. In addition, after an enemy hits you, you can make a Bluff check to play dead. It's a very useful debuff, especially at higher levels when you tend to use Standard Actions most of the time. PHBII pg 93.

Slippers of Battledancing: +10 land speed, +5 competence bonus to Tumble, and if you have 5 ranks in Perform (dance) you can use your Cha instead of Str or Dex as your bonus to attack with one handed or light weapons. It's expensive at 33,750 gp, but if you're going to stick with a Cha based melee build, I think it's a must have. DMGII pg 272.

[chrisgray86]

Psyren No I am not set on a melee character I love magic by the way...... My last character was a sorcerer so let me have what you got....

[chrisgray86]

Thanks person man for the tips

[Answerer]

our dm made us roll for it so I wound up being 19 and I have a cloak of charisma so thats why its so high.
Step 1: Get a better DM.

[Aegis013]

Step 1: Get a better DM.

Step 2: Provide better advice.
If the table and the DM agree that they enjoy rolling stats more, that's fine, isn't it? I don't see complaints about it being thrown around.

On topic, you really ought to give the Binder Handbook (previously linked) a read through. It has a good deal of useful information, If you're doing KoSS I agree with Psyren that your Patron Vestige should be one that provides a useful cooldown power. Also, be sure to ask your DM about Zceryll vestige. It's extremely powerful, but you don't want to spring something like that on your DM unexpectedly. It can be found on WotC website.

[chrisgray86]

Step 2: Provide better advice.
If the table and the DM agree that they enjoy rolling stats more, that's fine, isn't it? I don't see complaints about it being thrown around.

On topic, you really ought to give the Binder Handbook (previously linked) a read through. It has a good deal of useful information, If you're doing KoSS I agree with Psyren that your Patron Vestige should be one that provides a useful cooldown power. Also, be sure to ask your DM about Zceryll vestige. It's extremely powerful, but you don't want to spring something like that on your DM unexpectedly. It can be found on WotC website.

I have read the Binder hand book and there is lots of good stuff but I was hoping for a little more specific help. Alot of the stuff in the book lists multiple vestige binding combos and since im only level 6 I can only bind one at a time and being so low Im not sure if I should take Koss now or wait till I am higher. I just wanted to focus my guy a little more right now he can bind just about anything under the sun I think I have a +17 to my binder roll which is retarted so I was thinking about moving some feats around that may lower that number a little but would help me be more effective in a fight

[Kazyan]

Step 1: Get a better DM.

Let me pre-empt the inevitable derail by saying that we've all seen your rolled-stats rant by now and that the OP probably won't care.

[Talionis]

I have read the Binder hand book and there is lots of good stuff but I was hoping for a little more specific help. Alot of the stuff in the book lists multiple vestige binding combos and since im only level 6 I can only bind one at a time and being so low Im not sure if I should take Koss now or wait till I am higher. I just wanted to focus my guy a little more right now he can bind just about anything under the sun I think I have a +17 to my binder roll which is retarted so I was thinking about moving some feats around that may lower that number a little but would help me be more effective in a fight

Take KoSS now. It's more hit points and more useful abilities than you will get from Binder levels. The Hit Points help more early and you are more likely to be melee for a while at these lower levels. You really don't lose anything by taking levels in KoSS, but you should pick a vestige for KoSS that you think you will use most of the time throughout your career.

[Answerer]

Step 2: Provide better advice.
If the table and the DM agree that they enjoy rolling stats more, that's fine, isn't it? I don't see complaints about it being thrown around.
See, I read "the DM made us" as "I didn't really want to play that way." "Made us" is a statement that indicates coercion. If a group agrees to something, then whatever floats their boat I suppose, but rolling-in-order is a houserule/variant that dramatically changes every aspect of the game.

Instead of playing the character he wants to play, he's stuck playing the character the dice gave him. Oh what fun.

[Aegis013]

See, I read "the DM made us" as "I didn't really want to play that way." "Made us" is a statement that indicates coercion. If a group agrees to something, then whatever floats their boat I suppose, but rolling-in-order is a houserule/variant that dramatically changes every aspect of the game.

Instead of playing the character he wants to play, he's stuck playing the character the dice gave him. Oh what fun.

I agree with what you're saying, but I didn't read it that way, and I'm not sure that it's helpful to the thread to suggest finding a new DM.

[Psyren]

He's playing a great class with phenomenal stats though. Somehow I think he'll be fine :smalltongue:


Psyren No I am not set on a melee character I love magic by the way...... My last character was a sorcerer so let me have what you got....

The first thing to find out from your DM is whether you can use vestiges from outside of Tome of Magic - specifically, this one. (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070718) Zceryll is one of the most powerful vestiges in the game, particularly for a caster Binder who will want the summoned backup to tank for it.

All your stat boosts should go to Charisma - this will boost the DC of your offensive abilities, including Zceryll's Bolts of Madness, as well as make your Binding checks a cakewalk.

For a caster build, KoSS can come later on. You will actually want to get it after you can apply it to her, because that will allow you to power through the cooldown in an emergency and summon two monsters literally back to back, or fire off two bolts of madness. The wording of the ability isn't clear but it appears you can do this double activation in one round, which to me is quite fair for a daily power.

So, Zceryll is your powerhouse - which vestige do you use when your big guns are on cooldown? Your best bet there is Focalor, who lets you spam lightning every round. So you begin a fight with a cooldown power, and you spam lightning while you wait for the power to be ready again. For more damage, bind Balam and Geryon - now you have an acid and a cold gaze attack, which means you are doing acid, cold and lightning damage every round as well as summoning a nasty monster (up to SMIX) every 5 rounds. All supernatural, so you ignore spell resistance and immunity - only an antimagic field can stop you. That kind of firepower can get you through just about any fight in the game.

[Talionis]

He's playing a great class with phenomenal stats though. Somehow I think he'll be fine :smalltongue:

So, Zceryll is your powerhouse - which vestige do you use when your big guns are on cooldown? Your best bet there is Focalor, who lets you spam lightning every round. So you begin a fight with a cooldown power, and you spam lightning while you wait for the power to be ready again. For more damage, bind Balam and Geryon - now you have an acid and a cold gaze attack, which means you are doing acid, cold and lightning damage every round as well as summoning a nasty monster (up to SMIX) every 5 rounds. All supernatural, so you ignore spell resistance and immunity - only an antimagic field can stop you. That kind of firepower can get you through just about any fight in the game.

This is good advice if Zceryll is available and after reading Zceryll that's the way you want to go. If there is a powerful vestige with powerful abilities later would be a good reason to put off KoSS.

Binders are flexible, but you will need to make choices on a most of the time vestige for KoSS to get the most bang for its buck.

[Onerai]

I certainly agree that Zceryll is amazing - if memory serves, access to this vestige alone causes the Binder to jump up a tier :) Now for some melee advice, in case you still want to go that way...

Andras - Good for low-level play; some good proficiencies if you plan on binding 1 vestige most days, includes greatsword and lance. Smite attack will be strong with your cha score, especially if you can power attack. Lets you summon a lance and trained warhorse for some deadly charge attacks. Add Eligor later to gain +4 strength, some good mounted combat feats and natural armour.

Savnok - A low level survival button. Get heavy enchanted armour, DR, and the ability to switch places with a willing ally. Really handy; doesn't make you fight harder, but keeps you in the fight. A good "second vestige" for when you get one.

Paimon - Another low-level option. Good if you can get a source of bonus damage to all your attacks for 1 turn, since Paimon has several ways to let you attack many enemies at once. If you can find a quick and easy source of dex to damage, this gets better since Paimon gives you +4 dex.

Eurynome - The hammer is cool and deadly, but sadly none of the other abilities make you good at using it. Might be decent if combo'd with other melee vestiges, but by the time you have another vestige, you may have better options.

Chupoclops - Well alright! A good option here: a debuffing aura for nearby foes, you can walk through walls, beat ghosts to death, get a bite attack and can even make a full attack on a charge. High level (6), but awesome.

Zagan - Great for attacking other humanoid parties. Aversion on the melee guy keeps him away from you, then you can walk up and grapple the mage with your considerably improved grapple modifier and constrict ability. Also high-level, but again a good option.

Ipos - Get claws, rend, and the ability to use True Seeing for 1 round/5. High level (6), but by the time you get it you have more than 1 vestige, which means you can combo it with Chupoclops for a horrid clawing, biting, rending pounce.

[Psyren]

Agreed with Onerai - you have great stats, so you can definitely rock melee if you want.

[chrisgray86]

See, I read "the DM made us" as "I didn't really want to play that way." "Made us" is a statement that indicates coercion. If a group agrees to something, then whatever floats their boat I suppose, but rolling-in-order is a houserule/variant that dramatically changes every aspect of the game.

Instead of playing the character he wants to play, he's stuck playing the character the dice gave him. Oh what fun.

Answerer This is the first game I have ever played as far as dnd goes and I believe that this is the first game that she has ever run and I guess this is the way that she did it when she last played with other people so we really had no say on this part.

Psyren any tips on feats to take other than the binder ones I have? If I take weapon focus I know it says you can use it on Rays but is that the only magic you can use it with?

[Person_Man]

Answerer This is the first game I have ever played as far as dnd goes and I believe that this is the first game that she has ever run and I guess this is the way that she did it when she last played with other people so we really had no say on this part.

If that's the case, I would strongly suggest against using Zceryll or any of the other crazy online vestiges. It's a open ended, very high powered option, that could easily break a game if you're not being careful.

[Psyren]

Wait, if this is your first game, how did you play a sorcerer before? :smallconfused:

You can still play a caster binder without Zceryll if you feel she is too much - simply focus on Focalor, Geryon, Balam and another damage vestige (Amon's fire breath is nice.)

[chrisgray86]

Still the same game psyren I have died twice already third character same game

[Answerer]

I cannot more strongly recommend that you cease to use that variant. It's not the default rule, and the books only mention it because it was used in some older versions of the game where characterization was much less important than it is now. D&D 3.5 characters take too long to make, and are expected to have fairly thorough backstories and the like. The DM gets to control the entire world; you get to control your character. Were I you I would not accept any rolling for any permanent statistic.